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ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-15, 12:23 PM
I am coming up with a task for a CG Fenixborn (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/nb9xLIF0cTkkplYUSRC.html) Fighter who has an intense desire to become a paladin of Heironeous. The player is very chaotic (I mentioned this in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135123), but I don't want to derail that conversation), and I'm not sure will be able to make it. The

Here's my idea.

First, they are going to cast Detect Evil and Detect Chaos, a person cannot join as an apprentice without at least passing that. Then they would become an apprentice (not a paladin) and be scrutinized by the league. After a short time (a month or so in-game), there will be a short trial where apprentices defend themselves and their actions, following a strict set of rules (to be reviewed and obeyed).

After finding the fighter chaotic, the high priest / paladin gives this task to the Fighter, before allowing them to be an apprentice.

"Obtain a live duck and bring it to me, following all applicable laws, rules or ordinances on the subject. If, at any point, you choose to end this test, speak the words 'The duck hunt is over' "


Then, they have someone scry on the candidate, until such time as the candidate speaks the words, or brings the duck.

First, the act in question seems silly, stupid, and completely contrived. That is intentional.

Now, the duck must be purchased/obtained lawfully from somewhere. Since the town we're in is not near a coast or lake, I figure finding a duck will be a worthwhile task.

Second, there must be some attempt made to find out the local laws regarding purchases and transportation, specifically of animals/fowl. I will make the ordinances fairly easy to obtain, if a person asks the right questions/looks in the right places.

Finally, when returning with the duck, they find out there is an ordinance that live fowl is not to be brought into the temple, so as not to disturb the meditation of worshipers. They must find a reasonable way to circumvent this ordinance (by either changing the ordinance or having the rule suspended for a brief period). I figured the church would have an "open church meeting" following Robert's rules (or a variation) with voting powers among the priests and paladins. Convincing them to vote in favor with the apprentice would not require much skill, since they have done this "test" with many apprentices, and in fact, the rule is there simply for the test. (maybe a DC 5 diplomacy with a reasonable explanation).

If the character makes a reasonable attempt at following the rules and order of this, I will move them to NG, and allow their apprenticeship to show that they can be LG (with the trial, of course, being the culmination).

So, I'm asking the GitP forum treaders if they have any ideas, thoughts, or opinions on this, especially anything I might add.

deuxhero
2009-12-15, 12:27 PM
And what if the would-be Paladin decides to avoid dealing with getting the duck in the temple and bring Muhammad to the mountain (the guy outside)?

FoE
2009-12-15, 12:29 PM
The duck should be in a well in a church on an island on a lake in a mountain in a land far, far away.

Ridureyu
2009-12-15, 12:32 PM
I hope you don't mind me posting an image, but somehow this just needed it.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/forumstuff/duck_of_sparks.gif

Zom B
2009-12-15, 12:33 PM
Personally, I love this idea.

Grumman
2009-12-15, 12:38 PM
You don't choose to become a paladin, Heironeous chooses you.

Shademan
2009-12-15, 12:38 PM
yees...bring us a duck so we may punish it for it's many misdeeds!

I like that idea. It is witty, it is challenging(surprisingly so) and how the task is solved tells so much about the character. do he kill the duck? do he check the local rules on hunting? do he just buy one? do he get his druid buddy to wildshape into one and bake a cake and put the duck in the cake and come back to the temple with the cake and shout SURPRISE! as the duck jumos out and transform into a nekkid lady?
.....
er.... yeah...

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-15, 12:40 PM
And what if the would-be Paladin decides to avoid dealing with getting the duck in the temple and bring Muhammad to the mountain (the guy outside)?

The priest knows the rules, and the specifics of the quest. Therefore, he will not willingly go outside simply to get the duck. In fact, he will probably have the scryer let him know when the applicant gets close or tries this.

I'm thinking he also makes the applicant a temporary, lowest level member of the order, meaning that they are restricted from lying, and must follow the instructions of higher level members (including apprentices, who are just above them in the hierarchy)


I hope you don't mind me posting an image, but somehow this just needed it.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/forumstuff/duck_of_sparks.gif

I love it. Hope the applicant doesn't find a duck-shaped druid (with the Natural Spell feat, of course).

Bagelz
2009-12-15, 12:42 PM
anyone familiar with the munchkin games.
"NEVER PICK UP A DUCK IN A DUNGEON"

other than that, it makes me happy to see dms actually making the characters act out their leveling prestige/multiclassing. sounds like a good plan.

I'd put an anti illusion/transute zone in the temple, so the player doesn't get the duck changed into an inanimate object in order to sneak it into the templ

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-15, 12:47 PM
anyone familiar with the munchkin games.
"NEVER PICK UP A DUCK IN A DUNGEON"

other than that, it makes me happy to see dms actually making the characters act out their leveling prestige/multiclassing. sounds like a good plan.

I'd put an anti illusion/transute zone in the temple, so the player doesn't get the duck changed into an inanimate object in order to sneak it into the templ

Good thought, I hadn't considered that.

I think it better to include that possibility as part of the ordinance. I'm trying to give the player as much freedom to do what they want, but if they do something wrong, they fail. So, someone else could transmute the duck and bring it in, but the applicant is breaking a rule.

Duke of URL
2009-12-15, 12:47 PM
... and then, when the applicant finally manages to get the duck inside, have the high priest / paladin inform him that they now require a SHRUBBERY!!! Meanwhile the illusion dissipates and the "applicant" is left standing in front of a group of bards/illusionists who are having a good laugh at him.

But seriously, good concept. I approve and really don't see much to comment on. Success should be based on diligence and intent, not necessarily in crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's.

Draz74
2009-12-15, 12:49 PM
anyone familiar with the munchkin games.
"NEVER PICK UP A DUCK IN A DUNGEON"

Definitely the first thing I thought of.

Which made me realize, again, that I don't know where this trope came from ... :smallfrown:

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-15, 12:49 PM
yees...bring us a duck so we may punish it for it's many misdeeds!

I like that idea. It is witty, it is challenging(surprisingly so) and how the task is solved tells so much about the character. do he kill the duck? do he check the local rules on hunting? do he just buy one? do he get his druid buddy to wildshape into one and bake a cake and put the duck in the cake and come back to the temple with the cake and shout SURPRISE! as the duck jumos out and transform into a nekkid lady?
.....
er.... yeah...

No ducks were harmed in the development of this adventure.

Seriously, though, I thought about the first act as an apprentice, after the whole ordeal, would be "return the duck safely to it's home".

Telonius
2009-12-15, 12:50 PM
This (http://www.bpd411.org/duck.html) might be useful.


Duck Law No. 8 A duck’s quack doesn’t echo. No one knows why.

Restatement: Sometimes there is no answer.

dsmiles
2009-12-15, 12:51 PM
"And what else floats in water?"

Nehh
2009-12-15, 12:52 PM
Here's a thought - what does the high priest DO with the duck once it is delivered? Otherwise I would wait for someone else to do it, and as the high priest leaves with the duck to give it to the apprentice I would buy it off him, or something like that.

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-15, 12:53 PM
But seriously, good concept. I approve and really don't see much to comment on. Success should be based on diligence and intent, not necessarily in crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's.

Absolutely, they should attempt to find out the applicable laws, because "ignorance is not a defense" However, if a reasonable effort is made, and a mistake is made, they will still move from CG to NG (which is the goal...to pass the "Detect Chaos" spell)

Barbarian MD
2009-12-15, 12:53 PM
You don't choose to become a paladin, Heironeous chooses you.

Somebody else on the board is Reformed, I see (or at least knows of it). :smallwink:

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-15, 12:56 PM
This (http://www.bpd411.org/duck.html) might be useful.

Ooh, I really like that...it provides a nice symbolic justification for the ritual.

(I also thought I accidentally double posted)

Kyeudo
2009-12-15, 12:56 PM
Following the Law does not make one lawful. Being Lawful is more about being orderly in conduct. If you prefer to plan instead of make stuff up as you go along, you are lawful.

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-15, 01:03 PM
Following the Law does not make one lawful. Being Lawful is more about being orderly in conduct. If you prefer to plan instead of make stuff up as you go along, you are lawful.

I absolutely agree. That's why I'm trying to avoid "making someone lawful". They are educating them on how laws are in place, and following them, though sometimes tedius, can be important, and not following them must be justified (again, the person will not fail for a breach of rules, they will be questioned about it). Also, they want a person who can follow the orders of a superior in order to be in their organization (more than just being Lawful - being a Paladin).


Here's a thought - what does the high priest DO with the duck once it is delivered? Otherwise I would wait for someone else to do it, and as the high priest leaves with the duck to give it to the apprentice I would buy it off him, or something like that.

I think returning the duck to its home would be best, that way another applicant can't do this. Also, I think as a matter of course, a person who had to fulfill this quest would not likely give someone else an easy-out.

Kol Korran
2009-12-15, 01:07 PM
there is a game called Dink... something soemthing... in a part of it you reach a town that worhip it's ducks! in fact they sacrifice most of their food for them, so they are starving... something similar might be done for humorous intentions.

also, might i suggest that some other members of the order might stage all sort of situations along the route to test the applicant's resolve, goodness, courage or whatever... just to spice up the "search for a duck, search for a duck" routine.

oh, and congrats for the idea. i love it, i hope the player will too.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-15, 01:08 PM
Is the high priest group going to weigh the duck against a girl to see if she's made of wood and therefore a Witch?

Fhaolan
2009-12-15, 01:11 PM
I just have visions of the priest having this odd little stockade off to the side of the altar.

*sigh* "Put it in there with the others. I really need to talk to Brother Bernard about rotating the quests more often."

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-15, 01:13 PM
Take the duck to the kitchen and get a cook to prepare it (with a nice honey glaze). Now walk around with your yummy duck as you see fit.

Megaduck
2009-12-15, 02:00 PM
I think this is an awsome idea.


Take the duck to the kitchen and get a cook to prepare it (with a nice honey glaze). Now walk around with your yummy duck as you see fit.

:smalleek:

Well maybe not that, the duck should be alive, and then the appretice should return it.

erikun
2009-12-15, 04:20 PM
Any particular reason why he wants to be a Paladin, rather than a Holy Liberator or Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)? Does he want to be a LG Paladin, or just a Paladin in general?


So, someone else could transmute the duck and bring it in, but the applicant is breaking a rule.
He could also ask the wizard to transmute his sword (or any other object) into a duck right there, meeting the qualifications.


Take the duck to the kitchen and get a cook to prepare it (with a nice honey glaze). Now walk around with your yummy duck as you see fit.
This also works.

Also, back door, unless the high priest sleeps in the inner chambers 24/7.

AslanCross
2009-12-15, 04:44 PM
You don't choose to become a paladin, Heironeous chooses you.

Could be that he feels the call and the screening process is to make sure he isn't an enemy of the church.

I love this idea. It's kinda cute and I think is a good way of keeping RP in the game without being too strict (with the code and all).

merge
2009-12-15, 07:55 PM
Maybe he should have to keep the duck as a pet through his apprenticeship.

Also, there's definitely a good opportunity for the classic fairy-tale test-encounter: just as he's almost brought the duck back to the temple, he's approached by some poor old person who, for whatever reason (rare allergies? Only cure for a disease? Dying daughter's only wish?) desperately needs a duck. Does he agree to repeat all his moderately hard work out of compassion? If not, he fails.

Lioness
2009-12-15, 08:05 PM
Yeah, someone beat me to it.

Just don't put the duck in a dungeon, k?

Thurbane
2009-12-15, 08:35 PM
As for presenting the duck to the high priest, is he permanently in the temple, or do his duties involve him leaving sometimes? If so, he could get request a copy of his schedule, and present the duck to him while he is out of the temple.

If you don't want the player to do this, maybe change the wording to:

"Obtain a live duck and bring it to me in my sanctum, following all applicable laws, rules or ordinances on the subject. If, at any point, you choose to end this test, speak the words 'The duck hunt is over' "

chiasaur11
2009-12-15, 09:24 PM
This (http://www.bpd411.org/duck.html) might be useful.

Ah, but the quack does echo!

Mythbusters said so.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-15, 09:42 PM
There should be some point at the end where the player has to choose between doing the right thing and finishing his test.

He gets bonus points if he does the right thing at the expense of the test (while otherwise passing it in every other way).

Righteousness (not self-righteousness) is the mark of a good and pure heart, and must be adhered to above all else.

Also, somewhere along the way, there should be a homeless loon with a duck on his head. He seems normal in every other way, except the duck and his complete and utter obliviousness to it. Accompanying the duck-man should be a motley bunch of other homeless misfits, including a man with a thinking-brain dog.

Jothki
2009-12-15, 09:56 PM
Kill the duck, bring its corpse into the temple, and then raise it once it's inside.

Fishy
2009-12-15, 10:46 PM
Skipping past all the wizardly/druidicious chicanery, the duck has to be delivered to the sanctum, which is inside of an Antimagic Field.

Darrin
2009-12-15, 10:47 PM
Flesh to Stone. The duck is considered neither alive or dead. Schrodinger's Anatidae, if you will.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-15, 10:53 PM
Flesh to Stone. The duck is considered neither alive or dead. Schrodinger's Anatidae, if you will.But won't you catch a lot of AFLAC from that?

dsmiles
2009-12-16, 05:15 AM
"And what else floats in water?"

You guys have no sense of humor...:smallfrown:

Sliver
2009-12-16, 05:50 AM
dsmiles - you might have missed this:

Is the high priest group going to weigh the duck against a girl to see if she's made of wood and therefore a Witch?

Dilb
2009-12-16, 06:38 AM
I absolutely agree. That's why I'm trying to avoid "making someone lawful". They are educating them on how laws are in place, and following them, though sometimes tedius, can be important, and not following them must be justified (again, the person will not fail for a breach of rules, they will be questioned about it). Also, they want a person who can follow the orders of a superior in order to be in their organization (more than just being Lawful - being a Paladin).

While it will certainly prove the tedious part, a superior giving a pointless, bureaucracy-laden task with numerous chances of failure only because he is constantly being watched (laws regarding fowl/livestock transportation were not written because of people carrying a single duck around) is the exact opposite of teaching someone that rules are important.

Now, putting the guy in charge of getting a shipment of 200 ducks for the annual church duck-roast, there's something that won't seem patronizing by the end. Plus the encounters write themselves:

"You obtain a wagon, but the teamster doesn't like your face, and is delaying departure indefinitely (he was going to take a long vacation anyway). Find his guild superior and appeal for a new driver!"

"Your wagon breaks a wheel in the middle of the market. Make a DC 25 strength check to move it out of the busy lane yourself, or face an improper parking fine!"

"The duck feed has gone mouldy. Dispose of it in accordance with local regulations concerning tainted foodstuffs!"

Since the law is against bringing in fowl which disturb the meditation, the duck can be silenced, either manually or magically.