What do you mean there is no more magic!? (3.5)

[Anonymouswizard]

This is an attempt at creating the famous mana system: a spell point system where points are measured not by the caster but by the area surrounding him. This system would be quite unbalancing if not handled correctly, so some kind of drawback shall have to be included. This system is in no way the correct system for clerics: they draw magic from the gods not from the world.


Rules of the Mana System
The mana system uses a variant on spell points. By using this system mages draw on the magic of the surrounding area, casting spells based on the amount of energy left. However, casters cannot cast forever, and so each spell they cast adds to the strain on their minds.
Casting a spell: a mage is able to cast any spell they know and have memorized as long as enough magic energy remains within 100ft of them. In order to cast a spell the mage reduces the mana of the surrounding area by the cost of the spell based on the spell level. The spell then goes of with all the normal effects. All save DCs are based of charisma: casting the spell isn't the hard part, it's getting the mana to obey you properly.
{table]Spell level|Mana cost
0|0
1|1
2|3
3|6
4|10
5|15
6|21
7|28
8|36
9|45[/table]
Casting a spell requires the mage to channel the mana through his own body, meaning that whenever a spell is cast a mage must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10+2xthe spells level-1. If he fails this save he becomes fatigued. If he casts while fatigued and fails a save he becomes exhausted. If he continues to cast while exhausted and fails a save the mage falls unconscious for 8 hours.
Mana: each mage draws on magical energy known as mana within 100ft of him. The energy a mage can draw on add up to a mana value of 100 if full. Each spell cast in an area reduces its mana value by a certain amount. Once an area has no more mana the mage can no longer cast spells until he moves to a new area. The amount of mana within an area is rarely full due to mages casting their spells.
The amount of mana that can be in an area depends on the type of terrian:
Type|Max mana
Wasteland|20
Grassland|50
Forest|100
Mana Nexus|200
Each round a location gains or loses 1d4 mana per round due to shifting conditions (50% chance of gain or loss).
A Mana Nexus also increases the DC and variables of all spells cast within it by 1. The Nexus also recharges at a rate of 1d6 per round, and cannot lose mana. This makes Nexuses highly prized locations that are quarded by the mages who own them.

The mage
Mages are known by many names: sorcerers, wizards, druids, enchanters and many more besides. A mage is one who can draw magical energy from the land, casting powerful spells to use for destruction, healing or building. Due to their power many mages are loners, although weak mages normally befriend warriors and other people for protection.
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Spellcasting
2|+1|+0|+0|+3|
3|+1|+1|+1|+3|
4|+2|+1|+1|+4|
5|+2|+1|+1|+4|
6|+3|+2|+2|+5|
7|+3|+2|+2|+5|
8|+4|+2|+2|+6|
9|+4|+3|+3|+6|
10|+5|+3|+3|+7|
11|+5|+3|+3|+7|
12|+6|+4|+4|+8|
13|+6|+4|+4|+8|
14|+7|+4|+4|+9|
15|+7|+5|+5|+9|
16|+8|+5|+5|+10|
17|+8|+5|+5|+10|
18|+9|+6|+6|+11|
19|+9|+6|+6|+11|
20|+10|+6|+6|+12|[/table]
Hit dice: d4
Skills: as wizard.
Weapon and armour proficiency: all simple weapons, no armour or shields.
Spellcasting: a mage casts arcane spells drawn from the wizard/sorcerer or the druid spell lists. A wizard must memorize their spells before casting by spending 1 hour studing their spellbook. Spellbook is as the wizards, spells memorized is shown below, with bonus spells per day added to it from intelligence.
{table]Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
1|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|5|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|5|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
8|5|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
9|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
10|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-
11|6|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
12|6|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
13|6|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
14|6|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-
15|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-
16|6|6|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|-
17|7|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1
18|7|6|6|5|5|4|4|3|3|2
19|7|6|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2
20|7|6|6|6|5|5|4|4|3|3[/table]

Optional rules
Strain: when a mage casts a spell they generate strain. A spell generates an amount of strain equal to 2xthe spell level-1. Mages can accumulate an amount of strain equal to their caster level+strength modifier+dexterity modifier+constitution modifier with no penalties. This is called their tolerance. A mage whose strain exceeds their tolerance becomes fatigued and must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10+3/4 the spell level2 or become exhausted. If they cast while exhuasted they must continue to save or fall unconscious for 8 hours. A mage recovers 1/5 of their tolerance with each hour of rest.
{table]Spell level|Fortitude save
0|10
1|11
2|13
3|16
4|22
5|28
6|37
7|46
8|58
9|70[/table]

[Mulletmanalive]

Ona crunch level, it would be nice if you'd included the spell save DCs against exhaustion. Why is strain based on Int? Surely it makes more sense for it to be based on the Con score.

Beyond that, you've not defined how long it takes for Mana to replenish in a given area. This whole idea has a vague DarkSun feel with this particular model looking more like the Preserver and someone who had the ability to alleviate strain by destroying the surrounding life would be a Defiler.

[Zom B]

10+3/4 the spell level2

I'd make a table for this since it's static numbers. Also, you don't get the same number if you multiply the spell level by 0.75 and then square the result as you would if you squared the spell level then multiplied by 0.75, so it's not clear what you intend as the order of operations. Yes, I know you do exponents first, but not everyone does.

Compare:
10 + 0.75 * 42
10 + 0.75 * 16
10 + 12

vs.

10 + 0.75 * 42
10 + 32
10 + 9

Other than that, I like this system.

[erikun]

As stated right now, a mage can go straight from unstrained to exahusted, with no stop at fatigued. Once they cast a spell that pushes them over their tolerance, they both become fatigued and must roll for exahustion.

I agree that tolerance level would make more sense based off Constitution. Then again, how would a magic user without a Constitution score (ie. undead) determine tolerance?

The whole strain mechanism looks strange. A 3rd level mage has INT+1 tolerance, but generates 3 strain from spellcasting; a 18th level mage has INT+9 tolerance and generates 17 strain from his highest level spells. It seems like caster level means very little, while INT means very much.

Does the environment/mana in the area affect the spells being cast? That is, are fire spells more effective in warm areas, or is it the same bonus everywhere?

[Mulletmanalive]

Perhaps caster level + Str bonus + Con Bonus + Dex Bonus for the tolerance limit?

Fit casters can cast longer but not necessarily as effectively as the smart ones?

[Anonymouswizard]

As stated right now, a mage can go straight from unstrained to exahusted, with no stop at fatigued. Once they cast a spell that pushes them over their tolerance, they both become fatigued and must roll for exahustion.

I agree that tolerance level would make more sense based off Constitution. Then again, how would a magic user without a Constitution score (ie. undead) determine tolerance?

The whole strain mechanism looks strange. A 3rd level mage has INT+1 tolerance, but generates 3 strain from spellcasting; a 18th level mage has INT+9 tolerance and generates 17 strain from his highest level spells. It seems like caster level means very little, while INT means very much.

Does the environment/mana in the area affect the spells being cast? That is, are fire spells more effective in warm areas, or is it the same bonus everywhere?

Good comments. The environment/mana in the area is going to much into MtG, a decent game but tracking X diffrent effects when you stand on a boundry is excesive. If you want to make the rules go ahead.

Edit: No, once they cast a spell that puts them over their tolerance they become fatigued. Now that their strain is above their tolerance when they cast a spell they are above their tolerance, as accumulating strain is part of casting the spell.


Perhaps caster level + Str bonus + Con Bonus + Dex Bonus for the tolerance limit?

Fit casters can cast longer but not necessarily as effectively as the smart ones?

Sounds good. This way casters must either be able to channel for a long time or cast effectively, but in the games I run rarely both. Anyway, that makes mages MAD, which they should of been anyway. Or maybe base strain of INT and CON and save DCs of charisma, the magics no good if it doesn't listen :smallwink:

[Narmy]

{Scrubbed}

I honestly think this is probably one of the better mana systems that I've read.
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Mana-Based_Spellcasting_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29
And now that I see Surgo made it, I think that it's even better. >.> Hmmm.

[Surgo]

This is basically unusable right now, because there are no rules for how much mana should be in an area to maintain game balance and how fast it regenerates.

It also doesn't say if you expend the prepared spells or not when casting, leaving me scratching my head as to how anyone can use this system as-is.

All that said, I question the use of this system. The strain mechanic is obviously there to maintain game balance in high-mana areas, but its existence at all means that adding a mechanic for mana at all doesn't get you anything. You're already limited by your strain, so there's not much point in adding paragraphs more rules text. If you just keep the strain mechanic, like the system in my signature (which this seems to be based on), the DM can simply say "this is a low-mana area unless you have <item x>" and then you can just run with that -- which ends up with paragraphs less confusing rules text for the player and DM to understand.


{Scrubbed}
Wait, what? It's not like mana is some actual physical thing (aside from bread) that we can be "wrong" about. If in some system mana has something to do with an area...it has something to do with an area. Aside from the fact mentioned above that the mechanic being bolted on to the system doesn't actually get you anywhere, what's the problem?

[Mulletmanalive]

What are you on about Narmy?

Paraphrasing Wikipedia:
"Mana in Maori is difficult to translate into English as it represents a concept without a parallel. In modern use in NZ English, it means prestige, with an emphasis on non-self-aggradisement [i.e. those TRYING to seem impressive and build mana lose it].

There is an anthropological interest in mana, which seems to mean something like spirit-ness or potential, possessed by all people, animals and inanimate objects."

Sounds like it has a lot to do with what's around you to me.

Oh, and for reference, your statement about 'not being wanting to be an ass but...' violates one of the minor forum rules by its mere presence.

[hamishspence]

I recall an interesting short story which used mana as a term for the ambient magic in an area, that could be used up. Wizard vs Warrior with demon weapon, the wizard won.

Method of using up the mana: a spell setting a disc spinning, accelerating, with no upper speed limit. Result- rapid drain.

[Narmy]

{Scrubbed}

[erikun]

Also, how many video games have you played that you're no longer able to use magic in a certain area, because you used up all the mana.
Magic: the Gathering. Populous. Actraiser.

As you said, Mana is the energy flowing through you and others. It makes sense, then, that the wizard can't cast spells in a vaccuum without drawing that Mana-essence directly out of himself - likely dealing damage trying. "Normal" casting, then, would be drawing Mana from the surrounding area to power a spell.

[Narmy]

Magic: the Gathering. Populous. Actraiser.

As you said, Mana is the energy flowing through you and others. It makes sense, then, that the wizard can't cast spells in a vaccuum without drawing that Mana-essence directly out of himself - likely dealing damage trying. "Normal" casting, then, would be drawing Mana from the surrounding area to power a spell.Actually, I always thought of Mana in the MTG setting to be drawn from life force connections with specific planets.

Though, same thing I guess, hence why I removed myself from the discussion and said they win.

To me the earth itself would have mana, but then it goes on to include inanimate objects, and then since I said the earth, it battles my own point.

I just prefer the idea of drawing mana from the grass, trees, water, yourself, and others (Primarily yourself) than I do drawing it from the air..

Though the air would be included in there.

So I much prefer drawing mana from yourself.

The Maori ate parts of the bodies of their slain enemies to acquire the mana that those warriors had. At least I'm positive they did.

You consume a mana potion to put mana into yourself.

You don't draw mana from the air to cast magic in most games, you draw it from yourself.

Hence my dislike for the "fluff" I believe you all call it, of this system.

There, now that I've fully explained myself, I can officially withdraw myself from the convo.

As I said previously, they win.

F.Y.I. I don't think that MTG draws mana from the air, just to clarify. I believe it's drawing mana from the life forces of living creatures(I'll count plants in there as creatures), and the worlds themselves as a whole, instead of the air. But, that sort of battles my own point. Anyway, that was just to clarify.

[Thatguyoverther]

Did you take my idea or am I just being paranoid?

Anyways good job.

As for manna recharge rates and the amount of mana in an area I'd determine it randomly by the area type.

A place that was close to a Ley line or some other nexus might have more mana and recharge faster.

Something like:

Wasteland: 1d20 standing mana pool recharges 1d5 daily
Normal: 1d100 standing pool recharges 1d20 daily
Ley Line: 2d100 standing pool recharges 2d20 daily
Nexus:3d100+100 standing mana pool 1d100+20 recharged daily

You could do allot of things with fatigue and what happens when the mana runs out.

I'd consider letting casters continue casting but they have to start using their hit points in place of mana. Lethal or nonlethal depending on how evil of a DM you feel like being.

[Narmy]

Now that I think about it, having the mana area system although perhaps giving more reading (Which is damn annoying)

Could perhaps be a good idea to keep casters from doing what Surgo said, and casting too many of those high cost spells.. Though I suppose that would also depend on the spell costs.

If they depleted the mana in the area for an encounter, they'd be useless. So it does add a level of tactical thinking to it I suppose.

[Mulletmanalive]

I should really read posts above me before posting...

Thatguyoverthere: Sweet! The hp to Mana thing sounds almost exactly like Preserver magic. Now all we need is a Defiler prestige class that allows you to destroy living plants and at higher levels, animals and we have an awesome magic system for Darksun [yes, i love the setting, sue me]. If someone would design that, i'm actually going to use this system for a Darksun short run game!

As a quick idea, how about destroying a 5ft square of greenery per mana point gained, x2 Mana on grasslands, x4 in Jungle?

An important point here being that Liches and whatever other undead you may have in your setting that cast spells will have suddenly become more dangerous because they can't become fatigued or exhausted. I would presume that they'd go in for a lot of destructive Defiling too, hating life and all...

A side point, it's still not clear if you get to keep spells that you've cast or not. It probably wouldn't matter overtly either way, given that you could completely suck an area dry with only mid-level spells and have to move on.

oh, while i remember: @Surgo: This also appears to be based very closely on the 2005 Iron Heroes magic system by Monte Cooke; at least the Strain part. I guess good ideas just crop up over and over.

[Cute_Riolu]

Oh, and for reference, your statement about 'not being wanting to be an ass but...' violates one of the minor forum rules by its mere presence.

As does your (and my) pointing it out.


Honestly, I'm not that big a fan of these systems. They tend not to work out well in D20, as it wasn't built to accommodate them.

[Mulletmanalive]

As does your (and my) pointing it out.


I've already admitted to that one and apologised to him via PM. Also, Irony...

I've not really noticed an issue with them "not fitting" so much as people not expecting them. A friend of mine started using a mana based system for a WoW pen and paper game. Supposedly it works well and easier than the Vancian system, though this is from a selection of players with little previous experience with d20 or a just a lot of experience dealing with houserules [most of the veteran GMs amongst us have redone the game to our tastes so straight PHB games are pretty rare]

[Surgo]

You can certainly make a spell-point/mana/strain-based system work in d20. You just have to recognize the problems with most approaches (math), and deal with said problems.

[Gensh]

Maybe tolerance should have some sort of correlation with Wis, since it's supposed to be spiritual strength and such. I dunno. A lot of systems have concentration based on Wis instead of Con, and undead use Cha instead of Con, so it might help players transition or something.

Also, in GURPS, areas with a Very High mana level cause all failures to become critical failures and makes actual critical failures "spectacular". That'd be pretty neat to see in d20.

[Mulletmanalive]

You can certainly make a spell-point/mana/strain-based system work in d20. You just have to recognize the problems with most approaches (math), and deal with said problems.

Ah yes, the joy of maths...I remember playing GURPS...

Good game but i don't even own a calculator any more.

At least this isn't nearly as bad as crafting swords...:smallbiggrin:

[Owrtho]

I'm not sure, but is this designed with the idea that there aren't spells per day, an the only limits on what you can cast of your spell list are strain and mana (with wizards still needing to choose spells for the day)? Also, do casters inherently know how much mana is in the area? It might be interesting if it required something like a 0 level spell that lasted for rounds equal to caster level (but draining 1 mana each round) to tell you how much mana there was.
Also, wouldn't this mean you could tell if there was anyone nearby using magic?
Also, if mana amount isn't inherently know, I'd suggest making it possible to cast spells for which there isn't enough mana, but at the cost of damage equal to or twice the amount of mana lacking (thus making it a possible risk to cast higher level spells, and allowing you to undercut an opposing caster by using the mana before they do thus causing damage to them.

Owrtho

[Narmy]

Has anyone bothered checking out the mana system that Surgo made and posted on a dnd wiki.

It's in a link on his siganture.

[Anonymouswizard]

Good ideas. Just to clarify: you do not forget memorized spells when casting. Also, the strain mechanic was created to make casters have a chance of tiring themselves out when they cast spell, I'll move it to the bottom of the section and make the rule purely optional.

The idea for different maximums and recharge rates sounds good, but I'd like areas of the same type to all have the same maximum. Only recharge rates will be random. So:
Wasteland: max 25 recharge 1d6.
Grassland: max 100 recharge 1d20.
Forest: max 200 recharge 2d20.
Nexus: max 300 recharge 1d%. Also gives +1 to all variables, including save DC.

?

Also, having to pay in hit points if you can't access enough mana? I like it, maybe hp could represent internal mana, and you take twice as many points if you drain health. Cantrips can still be cast freely though, but no more CMW.

Anyway, defiling. Maybe an ability that increases the spell power of the spells by killing plant life around it, turning other areas into wasteland. It could give the same benefits as a nexus, making spells more powerful in several ways.

And finally:
How would magic work on the metal plane if what you've said about mana is true? We know that before 5th dawn there was no organic plant life, so how do lone characters cast spells on that plane. And don't site the big ball of mana in the middle.

[Mulletmanalive]

I think the point of the percentiles was to allow for the vagaries of time, wind and anything else that could move mana about.

In Magic, the metal plane had mana, because all life produces it and to my understanding, the metal realm had life, just not organic stuff. As they were artifacts, they would have produced colourless mana, with a possible exception of there molten metal flowed, as the change may have produced either Blue or Red.

[Dante & Vergil]

Good ideas. Just to clarify: you do not forget memorized spells when casting. Also, the strain mechanic was created to make casters have a chance of tiring themselves out when they cast spell, I'll move it to the bottom of the section and make the rule purely optional.

Does this mean that you effectively spontaneously cast spells? That's how I'm reading it, and I like it.


The idea for different maximums and recharge rates sounds good, but I'd like areas of the same type to all have the same maximum. Only recharge rates will be random. So:
Wasteland: max 25 recharge 1d6.
Grassland: max 100 recharge 1d20.
Forest: max 200 recharge 2d20.
Nexus: max 300 recharge 1d%. Also gives +1 to all variables, including save DC.

Looks good.


Also, having to pay in hit points if you can't access enough mana? I like it, maybe hp could represent internal mana, and you take twice as many points if you drain health. Cantrips can still be cast freely though, but no more CMW.

This too.


Anyway, defiling. Maybe an ability that increases the spell power of the spells by killing plant life around it, turning other areas into wasteland. It could give the same benefits as a nexus, making spells more powerful in several ways.

I say make this a varient, if anything, but you already doing it pretty differently already so do this as you may.


And finally:
How would magic work on the metal plane if what you've said about mana is true? We know that before 5th dawn there was no organic plant life, so how do lone characters cast spells on that plane. And don't site the big ball of mana in the middle.

Because in MTG, mana is tied to the land itself, regardless of whether or not there is actual life there.
My final thoughts:
It looks pretty good with what you have here, and I suggest also using Owrtho's idea on using a low-leveled spell (One that every spell caster probably should know) that detects how much mana is in the area.

[Solaris]

It looks pretty good with what you have here, and I suggest also using Owrtho's idea on using a low-leveled spell (One that every spell caster probably should know) that detects how much mana is in the area.

You mean detect magic?

[ericgrau]

The problem with most point systems is that they tend to favor either high or low level spells. But in your system the point costs favor low level spells while strain favors high level spells (2 4th level spells is not as good as 1 8th level spell), preventing too much of either. That's nice. Having a fixed mana pool regardless of level tends to favor low level casters more, except that even at high levels blowing off 2 9th level spells in an encounter is a bit much. Being able to blow 4 4th level spells instead doesn't fix that, it only means you suck if you do anything but nova. Reducing the mana pool would fix that and perhaps making it scale to prevent low level nova as well, except maybe below a certain character level. i.e., the point costs *should* prevent a focus on high level spells except you have so much mana that it overwhelms the point cost so much that only strain matters.

Also, yeah, mages get all the instantaneous versatility of a sorcerer (cast any spell you prepared without losing it) and power of a wizard, which is a bit overpowering. Unless you mean you lose the spell upon casting and must pay mana.

[Anonymouswizard]

Does this mean that you effectively spontaneously cast spells? That's how I'm reading it, and I like it.



Looks good.



This too.



I say make this a varient, if anything, but you already doing it pretty differently already so do this as you may.



Because in MTG, mana is tied to the land itself, regardless of whether or not there is actual life there.
My final thoughts:
It looks pretty good with what you have here, and I suggest also using Owrtho's idea on using a low-leveled spell (One that every spell caster probably should know) that detects how much mana is in the area.

That was actually how I interpreted mana, it was a response to who someone else said life produces mana. But thanks for the review, I will draft up rules for defiling: those who take it are weaker in wastelands but much more powerful if they can access the nexus. By destroying life they reduce the mana cost, but must pay more mana normally.


You mean detect magic?

Maybe a 1st level variant would be useful. By concentrating you can determine the amount of mana in an area, with a deviation of 1d10 points. Or keep it at 0th level and make it so that it fails in an area with no mana. On the fourth round you get a reading for how much mana you can access, but only if you concentrate on nothing but the mana for those rounds.

And should spells with durations drain mana when they are in effect? It would make blasters slightly less suboptimal, and will also add to the flavour: spells take up mana when they are in effect and so continuously drain mana. The most mana is used in the casting, so the drain is only 1 per round. This means that a enchanter cannot keep the king dominated all day. There should be exceptions: undead drain 1 point per hour to half hour, so necromancers build their liars on nexuses. Free willed undead cannot feast on the blood of one town forever, vampires are always on the move. SLAs and the like use a minimal amount of mana, so they don't drain mana but they do cease functioning if there is no mana. However, dragons are always dragons, no matter how much mana there is.

And is this book the magic goes away? Where can I locate it.

[Thatguyoverther]

I'd probably let casters know roughly how much mana is in an area for free, but make them take a standard action or more to get a precise measure.

As for continuous spells, it might be easiest just to have them drain the normal cost of the spell but over the duration of the spell.



Also, yeah, mages get all the instantaneous versatility of a sorcerer (cast any spell you prepared without losing it) and power of a wizard, which is a bit overpowering. Unless you mean you lose the spell upon casting and must pay mana.

I don't think it is that overpowering. Especially considering that you have to share the mana with others.

It makes it a lot easier to counter an opponent's magic. Even a puny goblin shaman could use up all the mana in an area so that the parties high level wizard get's shafted.

[Owrtho]

I'd suggest continuous spells drain 1 less than their level per round. As for casters knowing the amount of mana in an area, maybe make them able to approximate it within 50 to 100 of the actual value as an action (the amount randomly decided by rolling and adding or subtracting from the actual value), while a spell is around for much more precise measurement (but it uses the mana up). That is of course if you feel you want the casters to be able to approximate. I'd personally go with just having the spell.

Owrtho

[Anonymouswizard]

I have made strain an optional rule, and have instead replaced it with a fortitude save to avoid fatigue. The mana totals for different terrain types have been added, along with a "recharge" mechanic.

I hope to create rules for drawing mana from creature, including the caster soon.