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Agent_0042
2009-12-15, 03:36 PM
Based on the suggestion of another player, I'm trying to gear up a character for mounted combat, something I've never tried before. However, looking at the rules, I am quite confused at how it's supposed to work, especially in terms of action economy. Could someone please enlighten me?

Snails
2009-12-15, 04:14 PM
Based on the suggestion of another player, I'm trying to gear up a character for mounted combat, something I've never tried before. However, looking at the rules, I am quite confused at how it's supposed to work, especially in terms of action economy. Could someone please enlighten me?

There are some ambiguities, but I will cut to the chase. Presumably you are using a war-trained animal or better.



Fight with Warhorse (DC 10)

If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

Here is the vanilla sequence.

(0) Let your mount be locked to your Initiative, for the sake of simplicity.
(1) On your Initiative, make your DC 10 Ride check to control your mount. [If you fail, try again as a MEA].
(2) Spend your Move Action and your mount's Move Action simultaneously, to move your mount.
(3) Both you and your mount can attack.

There are the obvious variants, such as Charge instead of #2 and #3.

An example of what most DMs would frown on (but is not unambiguously disallowed by the RAW) would be things like this:
(1) DC Ride check.
(2) Horse Move Action, carrying us both 50'.
(3) Horse attack.
(4) Fast Dismount as Free Action (if I make the DC 20 Ride check).
(5) My Move Action.
(6) My attack.

There is a lot of potential for ruleslawyering on how to abuse action economy when it comes to intelligent mounts who could arguably act on their own Initiative count. Please do not go there.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 04:19 PM
Consider being a small race, so you can ride your mount in dungeons.

pres_man
2009-12-15, 04:27 PM
Melee: (If both hands are occupied, you must also make DC 5 ride check at the beginning of the turn)
Mount doesn't move or takes 5 ft step: Rider can make a full attack, or mount and rider can make full attacks if rider makes DC 10 ride check.

Mount moves up to one move: Rider can get one attack, either before the mount moves or after. The rider and the mount can both get one attack if the rider makes a DC 10 ride check.

Mount moves up to two moves: neither the mount nor the rider can attack, unless they charge. In which case the rider gets one attack at the end of the charge, or the mount and the rider get an attack at the end if the rider makes a DC 10 ride check.

Mount moves more than two moves: Rider and mount don't get any melee attacks.

Ranged:
Mount doesn't move or only takes 5 ft step: Rider has to make a DC 5 ride check (guide with knees) and if successful can make a full attack without penalty. The mount could make a full melee attack as well if the rider makes a DC 10 ride check (note if the mount is in melee that means the rider would draw AoO if making ranged attacks).

Mount makes up to a single move: DC 5 ride check, rider can then make a full attack either before or after the mount moves. The mount could make a single attack either before or after it moves if the rider makes a DC 10 ride check.

Mount makes up to a double move: DC 5 ride check, rider can make a full attack (at a -4 penalty), the full attack takes place in the middle of the move. The mount can't attack unless it charges and the rider makes a DC 10 ride check.

Mount makes more than a double move: DC 5 ride check, rider can make a full attack (at a -8 penalty), the full attack takes place in the middle of the move. The mount may not attack.

**House Rule**
For simplicity sake, I say for ranged attacks on a mount making a double move occur right after the first move instead of try to determine the exact middle. For a running mounts, ranged attacks are made right after the double move.

**EDIT**
If you decide to try to fight with the mount (allow the mount to attack first), technically by the exact wording if you fail to get the DC 10 ride check your mount can attack still attack but the rider can not. Most DMs don't play it that way, but it is something to be aware of in case this DM does.

Agent_0042
2009-12-15, 05:26 PM
I see, thanks for the straightforward answers. One more question: does "rider gets an attack" specifically indicate a melee attack, or can I use any standard action?

pres_man
2009-12-15, 07:45 PM
I see, thanks for the straightforward answers. One more question: does "rider gets an attack" specifically indicate a melee attack, or can I use any standard action?

I would guess it would work something like when casting a spell.


Casting Spells while Mounted
You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).

Darrin
2009-12-15, 11:43 PM
I see, thanks for the straightforward answers. One more question: does "rider gets an attack" specifically indicate a melee attack, or can I use any standard action?

You'll want to take a look at:

Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a)
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050201a)
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a)
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050215a)
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Part Five)
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050222a)

The Mounted Combat rules are a little bit spread all over the place, and while Skip does an admirable job of pulling them all together into something a lot more coherent, there are a few rough spots that the rules just don't cover. I get the feeling they got about halfway through playtest, then just shoved them aside and said, "they're done, they work fine."

You can see this with the rule about how the mount's movement counts as the rider moving, and this prevents you from making a full melee attack... which is odd, because if you're attacking with your war-trained mount (free action), you still get a move action + standard action or a full-round action. The mounted combat rules have also never really caught up with the fact that as the rules/sourcebooks moved forward, a frighteningly large number of effects/abilities allow you to move and still full-attack. But apparently this movement doesn't hinder you from making a full attack with ranged weapons.

Speaking of which, the rules specify a penalty for ranged attacks when the mount is moving, double-moving, and running, but oddly enough not what the penalty should be when the mount is charging. Maybe it just didn't come up often enough to be worth mentioning.

There are some other oddities that weren't patched up when the 3.5 update changed how charges worked... for example, you cannot, by RAW, charge a medium-sized opponent or smaller and hit them with a lance. Charge requires you to move to the nearest adjacent square to your opponent. But a lance is a reach weapon which cannot attack adjacent squares.

Ride-By-Attack also has RAW problems, since in most cases you cannot continue moving after charging to the nearest square because the next square is usually occupied by your opponent, and you cannot move through an opponent's square on a charge.

Considering how mounts seem to be such a large part of the game (Paladins, Druids, etc.), I'm puzzled why these problems aren't mentioned more often. I would assume most groups go with RAI or RAMS (Rules As Makes Sense).

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-12-16, 12:12 AM
Ride-By-Attack also has RAW problems, since in most cases you cannot continue moving after charging to the nearest square because the next square is usually occupied by your opponent, and you cannot move through an opponent's square on a charge.Its not a problem. Its meant to be that way as a nerf because it allows for MUCH more powerful combatants (sans magik)

There are ways of simply turning after you [full] attack on your charge and even keep going for the next opponent while mounted.

pres_man
2009-12-16, 08:25 AM
There may be multiple squares that are considered the "closest".

For a charge, you don't move to the closest square, you move to the closest square from which you can make an attack.