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View Full Version : [3.5] I've a bone to pick with the crusader class



Pollip
2009-12-15, 04:48 PM
Our group's history with the Tome of Battle is fairly typical. We've gone through the 'It's too powerful!' and the 'It's too much like anime!' stages, and now general consensus is that it's a cool book, though for whatever reason rarely implemented into our campaigns. I myself have never made a ToB character, and so recently I thought I'd finally hunker down and try it out.

The Crusader class really intrigues me. I like the idea of a warrior who outlasts his opponents with his steadfast dedication (it kind of reminds me of Naruto). When it came to picking maneuvers, however, I ran into some problems:

Anyone with a Tome of Battle handy, look up the Devoted Spirit's Vanguard Strike and the White Raven's Leading the Attack. Both are strikes that give allies a +4 bonus on attack rolls against whatever you hit for 1 round. The text is almost identical; am I missing something obvious (fairly likely, considering me) or are they just duplicate maneuvers. And if they are, why? All crusaders receive access to both schools, so why have the same maneuver twice?

That brings me to my next point. Crusaders get 5 maneuvers at first level, not counting stances. That's fine. The problem is that, because they're first level, only 6 non-stance maneuvers are available to choose! And two of them are the same! That seems like the options for customization are extremely limited.

Again, am I reading incorrectly, or is that just The Way Things Go when you play a crusader?

Rogue 7
2009-12-15, 04:53 PM
Warblades also get access to White Raven and not Devoted Spirit.

Douglas
2009-12-15, 04:59 PM
Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack are actually not quite identical. Vanguard Strike gives an untyped bonus, Leading the Attack gives a morale bonus. Leading the Attack is therefore slightly inferior because there are some bonuses (mainly Inspire Courage) that it does not stack with, but Vanguard Strike stacks with everything. Leading the Attack is also available to Warblades, where Vanguard Strike is exclusive to Crusaders.

Yes, customization of maneuver selection is almost nonexistent for a level 1 Crusader. You just have to deal with it.

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-15, 04:59 PM
It's the way things go. Stone Dragon also overlaps at times with other disciplines, and all Martial Adept classes have access to Stone Dragon. Compare that to Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack, which are on two different disciplines, but that one of them is exclusive to the Crusader, while the other is shared with the Warblade. Thus, the Warblade can choose Leading the Attack if it so desires, but Crusader can get Vanguard Strike and choose other attacks if it so desires.

This can be roughly important on the long-term, where choosing from White Raven can get you to advanced WR maneuvers, while access to Devoted Spirit gets you access to advanced DS maneuvers. Right around IL 3rd, you get some abilities that depend mostly on your access to other maneuvers of the same discipline, so you may choose to get your maneuvers with Devoted Spirit, forget about White Raven (say, you liked Martial Spirit more than Leading the Charge). Or, viceversa, though the latter is more difficult (since you can always go Crusader's Strike and get 1 DS maneuver).

So, you can get a slight degree of customization, except that the Crusader customizes slowly. Also, consider that this also applies to Martial Study and Martial Stance; you may want Vanguard Strike or Leading the Attack to get, say, Thicket of Blades or Leading the Charge or White Raven Tactics. So, it's not as important as you may think. Consider the Setting Sun maneuver Manticore's Parry: it has another maneuver that behaves exactly the same, though ATM I'm not sure if it's a Setting Sun maneuver or an Iron Heart maneuver.

Eldariel
2009-12-15, 05:00 PM
You're correct; Crusaders have the smallest school access and a large number of maneuvers known. This means that a 1st level Crusader has a very clear list. On the upside, once you reach level 4 you'll be able to retrain those and your options quickly expand.

But yes, on 1st level, there's only one maneuver you can leave unpicked. Thanks to your maneuver picking mechanic though, you'll have some variety in-combat.

AslanCross
2009-12-15, 05:01 PM
Yeah, that. Leading the Attack was meant for Warblades.

I'm also not very happy with the Crusader's maneuver selection, as they have the narrowest maneuver selection of all the classes. However, think of the flipside---they're the only initiators who don't NEED to specialize and can get almost all of their maneuvers at Level 1, albeit randomly.

They also have the slowest maneuver learning.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-16, 12:00 AM
And keep in mind that you can't keep multiple instances of the same maneuver prepared. Having 2 very similar maneuvers on your list lets you get around that. That said, it is annoying, and one of the reasons I don't like the Crusader class.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 12:08 AM
And keep in mind that you can't keep multiple instances of the same maneuver prepared. Having 2 very similar maneuvers on your list lets you get around that. That said, it is annoying, and one of the reasons I don't like the Crusader class.

I've paged through ToB a couple times, and I can't find where it specifies whether or not you can prepare duplicate maneuvers.

Ernir
2009-12-16, 12:13 AM
This is one of the reasons I like getting into Crusader late. That, and the timing of the stances (Crusaders get their fourth and final stance at level 14, while 8th level stances require initiator level 15), and that unlike Warblades and Swordsages, Crusaders don't have a particularly impressive capstone. =/

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-16, 10:14 AM
Personally, I like Crusader because, when combined with Battle Mastery (i think) or dabble into the other two, one can optimize with combos like Devoted Spirit from Crusader and Diamond Mind from Warblade. The crusader is misunderstood. Like monk

Tavar
2009-12-16, 10:20 AM
The crusader is misunderstood. Like monk
I have issues with both parts of this statement. First off, Crusaders are amazing tanks, and while there is some overlap with it's maneuvers, they aren't bad ones, and generally they are slightly different. As for their recovery system, a wise man once said "A random choice from a list full of awesome is still awesome", and I agree. Secondly, saying monks are misunderstood implies that they have positive points.

Glimbur
2009-12-16, 10:35 AM
Secondly, saying monks are misunderstood implies that they have positive points.

Monks have their perks. All good saves, Wis to AC, unarmed strikes can't be disarmed or sundered, etc.

They also have drawbacks. Did we want another monk thread, or should we stick with Crusaders?

dspeyer
2009-12-16, 11:05 AM
Personally, I like Crusader because, when combined with Battle Mastery (i think) or dabble into the other two, one can optimize with combos like Devoted Spirit from Crusader and Diamond Mind from Warblade. The crusader is misunderstood. Like monk

By "Battle Mastery", do you mean the bonus to AoOs that Warblades get at 15th level? How does that combine with crusader?

Person_Man
2009-12-16, 11:15 AM
Like feats, spells, psionics, and soulmelds, maneuvers have overlap. Books are written written by committees of people, and then edited (and I use the term "edited" only loosely here, given WotC poor track record) by someone else. Different people come up with similar stuff. And often times there will be very similar variations on a theme.

Also, while Crusaders get few maneuvers to choose from at low level, remember that most melee classes (Totemist and Psychic Warrior excluded) get 0 maneuvers/powers to chose from. Their class abilities are proscribed entirely. This was one of the big problems with 3.5, which ToB sought to fix.

Tam_OConnor
2009-12-16, 12:20 PM
On the other hand: random maneuver mechanic means that I, as a DM, really really hate them. Combine that with steely resolve, and there's an awful lot of DM bookkeeping.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-16, 12:44 PM
On the other hand: random maneuver mechanic means that I, as a DM, really really hate them. Combine that with steely resolve, and there's an awful lot of DM bookkeeping.

If that bothers you, you will hate Incarnum.


My only beef with the Crusader is the lack of good Counters. Swordsage and Warblade have a handful each, and the Crusader gets, what, three?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-16, 12:49 PM
By "Battle Mastery", do you mean the bonus to AoOs that Warblades get at 15th level? How does that combine with crusader?

1st off, I meant the Maneuver from "School X" for "Feat Y" feat

and as for the AoO's, Thicket of Blades + Warblade 15 + AoO Feats + Incarnate Construct Maug + Spiked Chain + Inhuman Reach = AoO anything that stands within 40+ ft. of your massively strong 1LA monster.

Ryuuk
2009-12-16, 12:58 PM
I've paged through ToB a couple times, and I can't find where it specifies whether or not you can prepare duplicate maneuvers.

It's never specifically stated, but when I read it I was left with that interpretation. Keep in mind that they never say 'prepare' like you with with spells, they always say 'ready'. There was a customer service ruling that confirmed that each maneuver can only be readied or not readied.

The use of 'maneuver cards' that wizard's had at its site also supports this. You're supposed to just print them all, and draw them randomly to help with the crusader's granted maneuvers. Essentially, maneuvers are booleans, they can either be True (readied) or False (not readied)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-16, 04:36 PM
1st off, I meant the Maneuver from "School X" for "Feat Y" featDo you mean Martial Study?
and as for the AoO's, Thicket of Blades + Warblade 15 + AoO Feats + Incarnate Construct Maug + Spiked Chain + Inhuman Reach = AoO anything that stands within 40+ ft. of your massively strong 1LA monster.No one says Crusader is bad just that it's limited. Best recovery mechanic, access to 2 of the strongest disciplines, and fairly good class abilities, at the cost of absolutely no selection. I'm not a fan of the class, but they're the strongest one in ToB.

kjones
2009-12-16, 04:42 PM
I wrote a python script to help keep track of Crusader maneuvers a while back. I probably still have it somewhere...

Reaper_Monkey
2009-12-16, 04:58 PM
Don't forget that some later maneuvers require x from the same school too, so having similar abilities but in different schools means you can pick the one in the school you wish to persue to make it easier. And as already mentioned you can swap out lower level maneuvers for higher ones as you level also, which expands the ability to customise a hell of a lot.


On the other hand: random maneuver mechanic means that I, as a DM, really really hate them. Combine that with steely resolve, and there's an awful lot of DM bookkeeping.

Actually, I have to agree with this. I don't mind not knowing what I'll have to hand due to the random recovery, if anything I actually think its a very interesting mechanic, however it takes so much upkeep to know what you have available and work out which ones you recover. It's also a per turn thing which further slows things down even after the initial seed at the start of combat. :smallsigh:

I'd really love to find an alternative recovery method which is just easier to maintain, even if it loses some power or flavour in the process as it's a huge negative for me considering how long combat can take normally. The damage buffer ability is the same, although I love the idea of it, it doesn't half add to the book keeping every turn. So I guess what I'd actually really love is a speed-play crusader, which replaces the fiddly mechanics with more streamlined ones which quicken turn to turn activities. I don't suppose anyone has seen or homebrewed something like this by chance? :smalleek:

Drammel
2009-12-16, 05:17 PM
Actually, I have to agree with this. I don't mind not knowing what I'll have to hand due to the random recovery, if anything I actually think its a very interesting mechanic, however it takes so much upkeep to know what you have available and work out which ones you recover. It's also a per turn thing which further slows things down even after the initial seed at the start of combat. :smallsigh:

I'd really love to find an alternative recovery method which is just easier to maintain, even if it loses some power or flavour in the process as it's a huge negative for me considering how long combat can take normally. The damage buffer ability is the same, although I love the idea of it, it doesn't half add to the book keeping every turn. So I guess what I'd actually really love is a speed-play crusader, which replaces the fiddly mechanics with more streamlined ones which quicken turn to turn activities. I don't suppose anyone has seen or homebrewed something like this by chance? :smalleek:

I hear that. I made a translation of the Tome of Battle base classes for Neverwinter Nights 2, which meant I had to automate all of the bookkeeping for Crusader because the game is in real-time. Without having to keep track of the maneuver recovery (not to mention the Delayed Damage Pool) Crusader went from one of my least favorite classes in 3.5 to one of my favorites. Makes me wonder how many other classes with lots of bookkeeping would be more fun if you could automate it.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-16, 10:59 PM
ToB is a gestalt powergamer's wet dream in my opinon. Crusader//Cleric, Ninja//Swordsage or Monk//Swordsage, and Wizard//Warblade are common combos.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-16, 11:05 PM
Ninja//Swordsage or Monk//SwordsageWHAT?!

Caucasian Text

Draz74
2009-12-16, 11:06 PM
Ninja//Swordsage or Monk//Swordsage

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Monk and Ninja add so little to what the Swordsage already has ... Wow, these are terrible combinations.

The other two you listed are pretty amazing, though.

(Druid//Swordsage is more like it.)

FMArthur
2009-12-16, 11:15 PM
Ninja//Swordsage or Monk//Swordsage

Wow, it's actually like I'm playing a straight Swordsage in a gestalt game! :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-16, 11:26 PM
ToB is a gestalt powergamer's wet dream in my opinon. Crusader//Cleric, Ninja//Swordsage or Monk//Swordsage, and Wizard//Warblade are common combos.

Crusader//Cleric and Wizard//Warblade are both good.

Monk offers *NOTHING* to the Swordsage. No, not even Saves, since the Swordsage can cover his weak save with a maneuver. No, not even unarmed damage, with the Unarmed Swordsage variant.

Ninja at least offers Sudden Strike, but Rogue would be better in every regard.

Rogue//Swordsage is an amazing Skillmonkey/backup tank. Use Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, and you'll be amazed at how much damage simply doesn't affect you, and how much damage you can dish out. If you've got another tankish-guy who also likes to close for the kill, you'll guarantee serious damage output every round.

Tavar
2009-12-16, 11:39 PM
For everyone say how much work it is, have you tried maneuver cards? Cause, when I did, it was no more trouble than, say, a spellcaster played with a modicum of though.

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-17, 12:25 AM
So at level one, you can give all of your allies +4 to attacks on a target with two maneuvers. They're not the same maneuver, so you can ready them both. Why are you complaining about this? At that level, an extra +4 to your allies is a death sentence for whatever you hit. Whenever I make a low level crusader, I always go with Leading the Attack and Vanguard Strike both; they enable me to point at something and make it die, TWICE. This is excellent.

As for bookkeeping, maneuver cards reduce this to near zero. I've run games with Crusaders several times, and I told the players to use some notecards to write down the names and basic effects of their maneuvers. They would hand their readied maneuvers to me at the beginning of combat, and I would then mix them up and hand them out as necessary. Added three seconds to their turn, smooth as anything ever goes.

I fail to see how Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike add to the DM bookkeeping unless you're the one playing the Crusader in question. When it's in the hands of the player, it's their duty to keep up with their numbers. When it's in the hands of the DM, it's not going to cause any more bookkeeping than any other NPC with class levels would.

Long story short: Crusader is awesome. Always. Yes you're kind of limited in your choices at first level, but you still have a lot more choices than a Paladin, and all of those choices are awesome.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-12-17, 05:34 AM
As for bookkeeping, maneuver cards reduce this to near zero....

I fail to see how Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike add to the DM bookkeeping unless you're the one playing the Crusader in question. When it's in the hands of the player, it's their duty to keep up with their numbers. When it's in the hands of the DM, it's not going to cause any more bookkeeping than any other NPC with class levels would.

Yes, using actual physical cards will speed things up no end, but this is impossible to use on forum/internet play. Also, although its normally up to the player to keep up with their numbers, sometimes they are unable to and therefore the DM or another player has to do it for them (for instance I have a player with dyscalculia and they really can't do that sort of thing themselves).

Also, some classes are just built to be easier to play, for instance adding fighter, rogue, barbarian, ranger, scout, etc etc to a monster really doesn't make them any harder to use as its mostly situational number addition. complex random recovery mechanisms do cause more upkeep, and significantly more than other classes.



Long story short: Crusader is awesome. Always.

Well if your opinion is "Always" then there isn't really much I can do to show up where they are less than ideal for certain play styles is there?

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-17, 06:19 AM
In online games maneuver cards don't work perfectly, and in that case it adds some upkeep. The way to deal with this depends on if you're playing play-by-post or chat-based.

In PBP, there's no real rush to post (and trying to rush posts misses the point of the medium I think--but that's another topic), so you can take the time to set up a dice-rolling system to distribute random maneuvers. That adds something like ten minutes to character creation as you set up your maneuvers, and maybe a minute to actually composing the post.

In a chat game, the way I would handle it is to request the DM handle actual physical cards on his end (or suggest this to the Crusader player, should I be DMing). At this point, you get the benefits of the cards in a face-to-face game. It involves trusting the DM to not screw you over, but if that's a concern there are other issues that need to be worked out anyway.


And yes, there are play styles that don't do well with Crusader. I intended for that paragraph to be read with an 'in my opnion' filled in where appropriate. If you will, allow me to amend my previous statement. "Long story short: Crusader is awesome. Almost Always."

If you're satisfied with a Fighter or Barbarian, more power to you. That goes for everything. It's a game, play how you like. I personally find Core melee (excluding Psywarrior if you count it as Core) to be incredibly boring however. Including when I'm DMing.

Tavar
2009-12-17, 10:58 AM
For PbP, I've played a few crusaders, and here's how I deal with them:
When you ready maneuvers, create a fixed order. When battle begins, roll your starting maneuvers. This might have to be done in the OOC thread, but that shouldn't be a problem. At the end of each of your posts, roll for your additional maneuvers, and since you can make any size dice you want, you can customize it so that you never have to reroll. It's not noticeably slower than making a normal post.

As for players with disabilities: yes that would be more difficult, but I fail to see how any other class really improves the situation.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-12-17, 12:33 PM
As for players with disabilities: yes that would be more difficult, but I fail to see how any other class really improves the situation.

We play live but over the internet, although the few times pbp have been attempted it has been without an in-forum roller. The disability wasn't a direct comment against crusaders recovery mechanics but more to the steely resolve, which is a number intensive mechanic that varies in its application from turn to turn. Other classes are much easier, such as rogue where you just add a fixed number of damage die to attacks made in set situations.

In fairness, I'm not questioning how easy/hard the recovery method is to use, others (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135318) are seemingly having similar problems and all we're asking for is a solution to make it more manageable mechanically. Offering easier ways of using the mechanic is fine, but comparing the difficulty to other classes or simply dismissing the fact that some players find it problematic is not really productive.

I'm sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but between this thread and lurking in the other thread it just seems that people are missing the point in that we wish for simpler mechanics, regardless of how easy or useful it currently is for others. :smallfrown:

Tavar
2009-12-17, 01:01 PM
True, in that case Crusader is probably a bad class to play, but so would Psionics, Incarnum, many different types of casters, the feats dodge, combat expertise, power attack, a party with a bard, etc. DnD has many classes that add or subtract values each turn. Calling one class out on it without mentioning everything else seems odd.

And by comparing it to other classes, I'm trying to understand what people find so difficult with the class. Plus, those are really the only 2 threads that I've seen mention having trouble with the mechanic that weren't solved by says "why not just use cards".

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-17, 02:09 PM
If you want simpler mechanics, I think there are better games than DnD for you. A tremendous part of the enjoyment for me is the complexity of the game: for the most part, it's a good kind of complexity that adds depth to the game. The rollplaying part of DnD involves accepting a level of complexity.

Now, where that complexity level lies will vary from person to person. There's nothing wrong with that. If you find Crusader to be too complex, play a Paladin. Number-wise, you're going to be weaker, and there's no reasonable way around this fact. But if you're still having fun, that's okay.

I don't intend to sound dismissive of your concerns, but I think said concerns are either exaggerated or easily mitigated by simple changes to the way one plays.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-12-17, 02:12 PM
Psionics and Icarmum are probably also classes too complex in their mechanics, but its hard to change that as thats what makes them that class. Standard casting isn't hard at all after the number of spells a day has been worked out in advance as its just a static list. Dodge is fine as its a static single bonus, combat expertise is fiddly as is power attack, but the number your sacrificing is easy to judge and others can do the maths quickly enough. Bards complicate matters too much (but luckily noone likes playing them much so not an issue) but again the class is built around handing out little bonuses so its hard to change.

The reason crusader has been picked on is partly because I hijacked a thread talking about it, but mostly because the other two classes have much easier and straight forward mechanics in both their class features and their recovery method. So its a shame to then not be able to have the same ease of play with this class too.

I'm sure a deck of cards would indeed solve the issue should we be playing around a table like we use to, but combat takes long enough in our current medium of play and every time this class has been suggested for play (because lets face it, it is pretty damn awesome) its been dismissed due to steely resolve and their recovery mechanic being too fiddly to use quickly.

I'm unlikely to actually find a suggestion here other than "homebrew" or "deck of cards" though so I'll leave the topic and consign the class once again to the wasted potential pile. Thanks for your attempts to help though, I do appreciate the effort.

EDIT to avoid double post:

I don't intend to sound dismissive of your concerns, but I think said concerns are either exaggerated or easily mitigated by simple changes to the way one plays.

This is fair enough, I am well aware that simple changes can mitigate the issue, there are many alternatives classes that can capture the same feel for instance, there are even different game systems.

This is all true, this however was not what I was asking for, we play D&D, there has been interest shown in playing this class in particular. I don't claim the world will fall to ruin should I not make the class viable, but I am equally not exaggerating my concern over the difficulty in how usable this class is for us.

You may enjoy D&D for its complexity and that is fine - but your downplaying of my claims to require aid is dismissing my plea, whether that is your intent or not.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-17, 02:32 PM
I'm unlikely to actually find a suggestion here other than "homebrew" or "deck of cards" though so I'll leave the topic and consign the class once again to the wasted potential pile. Thanks for your attempts to help though, I do appreciate the effort.

Sorry we couldn't help more, but there's not really any other suggestions we can give. The only options are either A) change the system, which is 'homebrew'*, or B) work within the system, which is using visual aids, a deck of cards or index cards or something.

*My personal favorite was a DM who let me 'queue' my maneuvers like building orders, from 1 to X. At the beginning of the fight, I would have #1 and #2. At the beginning of the second turn, #3 would 'charge', then #4, and so on. Once the queue was empty and I had used my last chargedm maneuver, the whole thing reset and I got 1 and 2 again.

Tavar
2009-12-17, 02:41 PM
Dodge only applies to one target normally, otherwise it's homebrew.

As for spells, remember each spell has separate effects, damage dice vary, save dc's both for and against vary.

For power attack/combat expertise: if it's easy to do those, how is steely resolve any more difficult? If you take x damage, you subtract y from that until your next turn ends. You then add a certain bonus to attack and damage: the first 9 add +1, and it increases for every 5 more points of damage. It's even faster than PA, because you don't have a choice on how much you add or subtract: it's just a value you add.

Really, it sound like the basic set up of DnD is your real problem: lots of little situational and changing numbers added to a d20. I've yet to play a class that I'm not doing at least a bit of math every round or so.

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-17, 02:53 PM
Indeed, homebrew or suggestions such as cards to streamline the system are the only real options. If you want something other than that, what you're asking for is basically impossible.

One suggestion. It's homebrew, but a very simple form that has probably already been suggested. If you dislike the Crusader recovery mechanic -that much- you can just replace it with the Warblade mechanic. From a pure numbers perspective, this is a reduction in power because every few rounds you're going to have to go without using any maneuvers (excluding stances) at all, compared to the Crusader method being able to throw them out at will. Maybe reduce maneuvers readied by one, but I don't think that's needed myself.

If that won't do it for you, then it seems to me that you just don't like the Crusader class and need to move on to something else.