The physics of money...

[MarvisSahad]

Simple question: What are the weights+sizes of single platinum, gold, silver and copper coins in 3.5? All I can find in the SRD are conversion rates and prices, but nothing to tell me whether a character holding, say, 10,000 gold pieces on his self is reasonable or not given his strength score.

Any help? This could have implications in a game of mine.

[Temotei]

Simple question: What are the weights+sizes of single platinum, gold, silver and copper coins in 3.5? All I can find in the SRD are conversion rates and prices, but nothing to tell me whether a character holding, say, 10,000 gold pieces on his self is reasonable or not given his strength score.

Any help? This could have implications in a game of mine.


The standard coin weighs about a third of an ounce (fifty to the pound).

There you go.

[MarvisSahad]

Thanks Temotei! Case closed!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Simple question: What are the weights+sizes of single platinum, gold, silver and copper coins in 3.5? All I can find in the SRD are conversion rates and prices, but nothing to tell me whether a character holding, say, 10,000 gold pieces on his self is reasonable or not given his strength score.


Screw the rules. He has money.

[Sliver]

Screw the rules. He has money.

.. In America?

[golentan]

.. In America?

This thread is simply *Fabulous!*

I have an on topic question, not worth firing up a new thread. Does anyone have a reference for the Break DC of a gold piece?

[Zeta Kai]

Simple question: What are the weights+sizes of single platinum, gold, silver and copper coins in 3.5? All I can find in the SRD are conversion rates and prices, but nothing to tell me whether a character holding, say, 10,000 gold pieces on his self is reasonable or not given his strength score.

That works out to 200 pounds of money! :smalleek: I hope for his sake that there's a shop nearby, & that they sell either art or wheelbarrows.

[Lord Loss]

You spent all the money on trading cards? what about your sister?

DnD Money Rules = NEED PAPER MONEY!!!

[tyckspoon]

That works out to 200 pounds of money! :smalleek: I hope for his sake that there's a shop nearby, & that they sell either art or wheelbarrows.

Which is why you have both extra-dimensional storage and do not carry out transactions in actual coinage. When you hit the multi-thousands of GP, you deal in gems, jewelry, modest magical goods, and if the area's economy is advanced enough, letters of credit. It's probably best to just assume any hauls of real coins get converted to more easily portable forms as soon as the party reaches any place where they can dump them all out of the Bag of Holding.

Edit: Or your GM decides the size and weight of a D&D GP is ludicrous, because it is, and rules that they're of a much more sensible scale.

[Totally Guy]

You'd need to buy a belt of giant's strength just to keep your trousers from falling down with all that in your pockets.

[Mongoose87]

You know, it's funny, in economics, we have a term called "The Velocity of Money." Needless to say, it brings to mind a very different image from what it actually is.

[hamishspence]

Razor-sharp coins thrown as shuriken do spring to mind on seeing that phrase. :smallbiggrin:

[Amiel]

Cool and/or pro tip: from a tower or other similarly tall structure, toss the individual coin pieces from on high - all at once - and hope that velocity applies to the coins. By the time they reach surface level, the coins should approach supersonic speeds and impact upon the unfortunates underneath (as a meteorite upon an ant), smearing them across the ground as a red or pink paste.
Not only have you done something creative, you may have saved your community from a potential evil-doer or malcontent.


Also, clearly the question calls for a bag of holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding). In essence, the coins, when placed within the extradimensional bag, are weightless; however, the bag still weighs as per given.

[Thane of Fife]

Which is why you have both extra-dimensional storage and do not carry out transactions in actual coinage. When you hit the multi-thousands of GP, you deal in gems, jewelry, modest magical goods, and if the area's economy is advanced enough, letters of credit. It's probably best to just assume any hauls of real coins get converted to more easily portable forms as soon as the party reaches any place where they can dump them all out of the Bag of Holding.

Edit: Or your GM decides the size and weight of a D&D GP is ludicrous, because it is, and rules that they're of a much more sensible scale.

If they weigh about a 50th of a pound, then they're slightly heavier than a US dollar coin and about half the size (assuming that they're solid gold). I don't really see how that's ludicrous.

Edit: Unless you're suggesting that it should be heavier.

[dsmiles]

I generally use the size and weight of the American Kennedy Half-Dollar as the standard size and weight of coins in DnD.

[Jack_Simth]

If they weigh about a 50th of a pound, then they're slightly heavier than a US dollar coin and about half the size (assuming that they're solid gold). I don't really see how that's ludicrous.

Edit: Unless you're suggesting that it should be heavier.
Considering that there's about fifty to eighty pennies to a pound (depends on year - the formula is changed every now and again), wouldn't gold coins be more about the size of a US dime?

[Thane of Fife]

Considering that there's about fifty to eighty pennies to a pound (depends on year - the formula is changed every now and again), wouldn't gold coins be more about the size of a US dime?

I was interpreting him as sayinging that they were too big and heavy. If he was suggesting that they are ludicrously small and light, then I would agree.

1/50 pound = 9.072 g
19.3 g/cm^3 (gold density)
9.072 g = 0.47 cm^3

I'm calculating that as slightly larger than a penny (based on the dimensions given by wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_penny).

[Ormur]

Also despite the weight (or actually because of it, or the density) the average dragon hoard is hardly enough to make a big pile of gold for him to sleep on, even with triple coins as treasure. Letters of credit or gems aren't unreasonable currencies, depending on how civilized an area you're in.

[Amiel]

Fantasy settings seem needlessly wasteful. They've gone to all that trouble to mine and mint these precious metals, only for it to end up in a dragon's hoard.

How much gold, silver and platinum is present within any given fantasy setting any way? I'm assuming that since wizards exist, they can just create or conjure new deposits? What if this isn't the case?

[jmbrown]

Fantasy settings seem needlessly wasteful. They've gone to all that trouble to mine and mint these precious metals, only for it to end up in a dragon's hoard.

How much gold, silver and platinum is present within any given fantasy setting any way? I'm assuming that since wizards exist, they can just create or conjure new deposits? What if this isn't the case?

Gold and platinum aren't common currencies so I say they don't mint them when resources run dry. Adventurers may deal in GP but a king's horde will have more silver than gold and platinum pieces as nobody deals in them. As for copper and silver, they probably ended up realizing that they spend more on metal than what the coins are worth themselves and mix them with nickel or another cheap metal.

[Cyrion]

Gold and platinum aren't common currencies so I say they don't mint them when resources run dry. Adventurers may deal in GP but a king's horde will have more silver than gold and platinum pieces as nobody deals in them. As for copper and silver, they probably ended up realizing that they spend more on metal than what the coins are worth themselves and mix them with nickel or another cheap metal.

But historically, medieval societies adhered to the gold standard. Even when you used a letter of credit it was backed by real, solid gold, so they didn't debase the metals for cheapness. (Though they may have debased them for less scrupulous reasons...)

[Bagelz]

So if you drop a penny off the empire state building...

yeah, if you don't want to burden your players with figuring out who is carrying how much so that everyone is just under their heavy loads... you can assume that some of the liquid cash they have is in the form of gems and other valuables. a 2 oz gemstone could easily be worth 2000 gold. a hand full of 1/4 oz gems or diamond dust might be small enough to trade for face value.

[chiasaur11]

You spent all the money on trading cards? what about your sister?

DnD Money Rules = NEED PAPER MONEY!!!

We need the Golem standard, STAT!

[MickJay]

Historically, most golden coins weigthed between 3.5-4,5 grams, making D&D coinage, on average, over twice as heavy.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm assuming that since wizards exist, they can just create or conjure new deposits?
I've thought about this, and concluded that e.g. gold must be worth ten times as much as silver because a single casting of wish (or similar) can create ten times as much silver as it can gold.

After all, wizards who conjure stuff to sell will want to produce the most expensive substance available. So if a particular substance becomes more valuable than the sourcebooks say in the short term, then it will be the stuff Created instead of less valuable substances until increased supply brings the price back down. So if you think about it, the efficiency with which things can be conjured sets the exchange rate. And thus it makes perfect sense for spells to refer to gp costs, not because market prices determine how magic works, but because the way that magic works determines market prices. Neat, huh?

But don't expect me to help y'all rationalize how the Craft skill works. :smalltongue:

[Noodles2375]

Fantasy settings seem needlessly wasteful. They've gone to all that trouble to mine and mint these precious metals, only for it to end up in a dragon's hoard.

How much gold, silver and platinum is present within any given fantasy setting any way? I'm assuming that since wizards exist, they can just create or conjure new deposits? What if this isn't the case?

It is actually worse than that. Outsiders with access to the Wish spell as a SLA can conjure up 15,000 gp with every use. At a sufficiently high level, things the DMG values at or below 15,000 gp become of essentially zero value. By contrast, since Wish as a SLA can create any item the DM/DMG values at 15,000 gp or less, items that are priced higher than this in the DMG become of incredible value. At a high enough level, no one would even consider trading something "valued" at 15,001 gp for any number of gold coins because gold coins are devalued by Wish and the like.

Edit: Obligatory link
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133839

[Surgo]

Only with the Dungeonomicon version of Wish, though. Otherwise Wish can just create anything and your setting starts to feel sad about itself.

[sofawall]

I've thought about this, and concluded that e.g. gold must be worth ten times as much as silver because a single casting of wish (or similar) can create ten times as much silver as it can gold.


I figured that out too, but I just looked at the Player's Handbook where it actually says it to you.

[Noodles2375]

Only with the Dungeonomicon version of Wish, though. Otherwise Wish can just create anything and your setting starts to feel sad about itself.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.


So it looks like it could just give you a 25,000 gp block of a precious metal.

[Surgo]

...and, which you didn't seem fit to include:

# Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

With no gp limit.

I mean, don't get me wrong, we're in agreement here on the fundamental point. But we have to note that this is true as well.

[Devils_Advocate]

I figured that out too, but I just looked at the Player's Handbook where it actually says it to you.
Does it? Where?

[MickJay]

With no gp limit.

At the cost of experience, IIRC. Wish SLAs do not consume XP, therefore any sensible DM will rule that these cannot be used for magic item creation.

Silver to gold exchange ratios, until modern times, varied between 12:1 to 20:1.

[Noodles2375]

Reading all the way through the spell description for the loss :)

[Surgo]

At the cost of experience, IIRC. Wish SLAs do not consume XP
Yep, but you said it yourself. We can't exactly put the Oberoni Fallacy aside here because it's a house rule to drop Wish to a 15k gp limit -- which to me seems a far better rule than something like "for some reason, when you use Wish as a SLA it can't create items". Using that sort of rule makes me sad because it means we can't tell stories like Aladdin.

[Grommen]

We once had a Million Gold Piece. The wizard in the party stored all his loot in the bottom of his tower. After amassing a sizable fortune (and wrecking several econimies) he got a visit from someone (named removed to protect the DM). One massive fireball latter all his loot was smelted into a very large block of gold (to be fair prolly other metals and stuff too).

Undaunted he created a "Gold Piece Golem" and assigned the golem the task of minting coins.

These are the same group of people that used to cast "Detect Magic" on Elemenster's Tower just to see a second sun rise every day.

[Temotei]

We once had a Million Gold Piece. The wizard in the party stored all his loot in the bottom of his tower. After amassing a sizable fortune (and wrecking several econimies) he got a visit from someone (named removed to protect the DM). One massive fireball latter all his loot was smelted into a very large block of gold (to be fair prolly other metals and stuff too).

Undaunted he created a "Gold Piece Golem" and assigned the golem the task of minting coins.

These are the same group of people that used to cast "Detect Magic" on Elemenster's Tower just to see a second sun rise every day.

Elminster?

[MickJay]

Well, fair enough, the SRD Wish description does specifically state:


When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP

So SLA wishes can still create/improve items, but it still consumes XP of the PC ("you").

[Surgo]

What? No it doesn't. When the Efreet or anyone else uses Wish to create or improve a magic item, it costs zero XP because it is a spell-like ability. "You" always refers to the caster of the spell.

[MickJay]

So what would you do if the efreet doesn't have any XP to spend? Free casting of Wish SLA is one thing, additional cost of making a magic item, strictly separated from the basic cost of casting Wish, is another.

[Gralamin]

So what would you do if the efreet doesn't have any XP to spend? Free casting of Wish SLA is one thing, additional cost of making a magic item, strictly separated from the basic cost of casting Wish, is another.

Wish states:


XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

So it is by RAW part of the XP cost of the Wish Spell not of a separate item creation step.

[Oslecamo]

So it is by RAW part of the XP cost of the Wish Spell not of a separate item creation step.

You get wish for free, and all exp costs become zero.

Wich means you can create a magic item worth 0 exp or improve an existing magic item by 0 exp. Wait a just a sec...:smalltongue:

[jmbrown]

You get wish for free, and all exp costs become zero.

Wich means you can create a magic item worth 0 exp or improve an existing magic item by 0 exp. Wait a just a sec...:smalltongue:

The efreeti's "wish" is weird because it's not italicized (and all spells in a description are italicized in 3.5). It simply says "1/day may grant up to three wishes" and we imply it's a reference to the wizard/sorcerer spell wish.

What's weirder is that the noble djinn's ability is italicized but the efreet isn't which leads me to believe that, because he's evil, the efreet's wishes are supposed to be twisted by the DM.

[Surgo]

I wouldn't attempt to infer too much from what is clearly a formatting typo.

[jmbrown]

I wouldn't attempt to infer too much from what is clearly a formatting typo.

Turns out the typo only exists in the hypertext srd. The revised 3.5 srd has it properly italicized. Someone should email Carton about that.

Not me, though. I'm lazy.

[Devils_Advocate]

because he's evil, the efreet's wishes are supposed to be twisted by the DM.
Always Lawful Evil, and with a Craft (Cunning legalistic argument) modifier of +14. (Well, what did you expect, basket-weaving?) And none too grateful about being bound by some mortal chump. It really seems like it should go without saying that an efreet will try to screw you over as horribly as possible while technically doing everything you ask.

Partly because it fits their description. But also partly because, that way, there's just so much potential fun for everyone involved. :smallamused:

[Random832]

The real question is, what does "1/day grant three wishes" mean as distinct from "3/day wish"?

[Deth Muncher]

Issues with Fabricating (either via Fabricate or Wish) gold:
-Make them into coins, you get slapped for counterfeiting.
-Make it a block of gold, you've now got...well, a block of gold. What'choo gonna do, start Fort Knox?
-Make it into jewelery, you've got some Craft checks to make or you're going to end up devaluing the gold with your crappy artisan skills.

And that's just off the top of my head.

[Surgo]

Always Lawful Evil, and with a Craft (Cunning legalistic argument) modifier of +14. (Well, what did you expect, basket-weaving?) And none too grateful about being bound by some mortal chump. It really seems like it should go without saying that an efreet will try to screw you over as horribly as possible while technically doing everything you ask.

Partly because it fits their description. But also partly because, that way, there's just so much potential fun for everyone involved. :smallamused:
An efreet is an incredibly weak creature. If you're that afraid, you can seriously just charm them and not get screwed over.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Issues with Fabricating (either via Fabricate or Wish) gold:
-Make them into coins, you get slapped for counterfeiting. Actually, you don't, as long as you make them the correct weight and don't duplicate any government's coinage. The value of coins is the metal they contain, not the shape, and many merchants of the time kept scales specifically to verify the weight. You can do similar with a block of gold.

[Random832]

Issues with Fabricating (either via Fabricate or Wish) gold:
-Make them into coins, you get slapped for counterfeiting.

Make them into _your own_ coins - a distinct design from that of any state. It's worth the same no matter who issues the coins. That's true in our world today as well, more or less, though the gold coins aren't often circulated and are generally disconnected from normal currencies.


-Make it a block of gold, you've now got...well, a block of gold. What'choo gonna do, start Fort Knox?
-Make it into jewelery, you've got some Craft checks to make or you're going to end up devaluing the gold with your crappy artisan skills.

Um, you can't devalue gold. Gold has a value that has nothing to do with being crafted into fine jewelry. This is why Fort Knox exists, after all.

[Grumman]

-Make them into coins, you get slapped for counterfeiting.
Make them into coins, and slap the king for counterfeiting. Because unlike you, the king can't cast Teleport and Dominate Person.

Also, what Sstoopidtallkid said.

[jmbrown]

The real question is, what does "1/day grant three wishes" mean as distinct from "3/day wish"?

The noble djinn's rules say that on the third wish the djinni is free of service regardless of what clauses you give him. I'm assuming this also applies to efreet. It also fits the fluff. If he could cast wish 3/day then three different people could ask for wishes. Instead, only the person who captures him can ask for a wish and everyone who wants a wish has to petition to the capturer.

[Surgo]

Um, you can't devalue gold. Gold has a value that has nothing to do with being crafted into fine jewelry. This is why Fort Knox exists, after all.
Um, yes you can. The only reason gold has value is because there's a static amount of it in the world -- something not true when Wish comes into play.

That said, the idea of gold not being able to buy anything of 15k gp or more is key to the Wish economy.

[Kelunas]

One of my players realized that there was a werewolf in the dungeon so he decided to sit down a few minutes and use a hammer to smash a few silver pieces into arrow heads.

I allowed it with a penalty on attack roll (not quite aerodynamic). When the party gets to a shop a little later he asks "can I get some change ?"....sigh...

[Person_Man]

Also, a wagon, a horse, and a NPC to watch them is not very expensive. Of course, every DM will at some point have that NPC killed/kidnapped and your money stolen at some point. But if it happens to your party once, you never have to worry about it happening a second time. Because that would make the game repetitive.

[Tehnar]

My belief is that Efreet can grant wishes the same way as noble Jinn can; that is only if they are captured; so they can bargain their way out. I believe that is the intent behind the wording of the Efreet wish granting.

[Oslecamo]

Um, yes you can. The only reason gold has value is because there's a static amount of it in the world -- something not true when Wish comes into play.
Say hello to nuclear physics. We can destroy and create the element gold. Expensive, but doable. But since nobody would benefit from it, nobody goes overboard with it.



That said, the idea of gold not being able to buy anything of 15k gp or more is key to the Wish economy.

Wich doesn't work in any sensible way. People buy and sell anything if you give them enough money. K's fancy idea of souls as high level currency is plain useless, because souls are actualy easier to get than gold.

On the other hand, if you just admit that the efreeti 3 wish day doesn't actualy refer to the wish sorc/wiz spell since it isn't ictalized, and even in the srd it doesn't link to the spell in question, you get a clean, easy and sensible solution.

Of course, english raping is just so much better for the game, right...

Oh, wait, not it isn't. It's just good for the ego of some people.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, a wagon, a horse, and a NPC to watch them is not very expensive. Of course, every DM will at some point have that NPC killed/kidnapped and your money stolen at some point. But if it happens to your party once, you never have to worry about it happening a second time. Because that would make the game repetitive.

Screw that. Extradimensional storage ftw.

[Surgo]

Say hello to nuclear physics. We can destroy and create the element gold. Expensive, but doable. But since nobody would benefit from it, nobody goes overboard with it.
I'm quite aware of this, and you'll also note that it is more expensive to create gold than gold is worth. This is explicitly not the case in Dungeons and Dragons.


On the other hand, if you just admit that the efreeti 3 wish day doesn't actualy refer to the wish sorc/wiz spell since it isn't ictalized, and even in the srd it doesn't link to the spell in question, you get a clean, easy and sensible solution.
It is italicized. The SRD is a Rich Text document, of course it doesn't have links.


Wich doesn't work in any sensible way. People buy and sell anything if you give them enough money.
Why, because you say so? It doesn't matter how many blades of grass I give you (worth: approximately the same as gold in the Wish economy), you won't give me your car.

[ericgrau]

That works out to 200 pounds of money! :smalleek: I hope for his sake that there's a shop nearby, & that they sell either art or wheelbarrows.

A strong backpack can hold 100 lbs. or so, and a good strength score can handle quite a bit. Fortunately gold is very dense, almost 20 times as much as water, so the actual space it fits in is a sack that's maybe a foot high. A couple of PCs could handle it, or a single strong PC hauling a small chest (at least 8 inches on each side) or two bags.


Also, a wagon, a horse, and a NPC to watch them is not very expensive.
Ya, that too. Wouldn't trust an NPC though.


Of course, every DM will at some point have that NPC killed/kidnapped and your money stolen at some point. But if it happens to your party once, you never have to worry about it happening a second time. Because that would make the game repetitive.
Ahahahahahahaha. Sorry, no offense meant to you or your DM. But one DM I had... oh man the paranoia and not just over gold. It was good times though.

[Devils_Advocate]

An efreet is an incredibly weak creature.
They logically ought to have the best protection that wishes can buy, oughtn't they? Or somewhere reasonably close to it?

I mean, if you could just... randomly encounter... a small group of efreet in the Elemental Plane of Fire, with little more in the way of defense than their natural plane shift ability and maybe some disguises, that would be nuts, right? It would be completely absurd for sapient beings who can grant wishes to go around like that.

Were that the case, would one not be forced to conclude that the entire multiverse is naught but an elaborate illusion created by deranged gods who like watching violent lunatics kill various monsters and take their stuff?

And that's just silly.

[jseah]

Were that the case, would one not be forced to conclude that the entire multiverse is naught but an elaborate illusion created by deranged gods who like watching violent lunatics kill various monsters and take their stuff?
Sometimes, when I'm cynical, I get the feeling that's how the game works.

[Surgo]

They logically ought to have the best protection that wishes can buy, oughtn't they? Or somewhere reasonably close to it?
Unfortunately, Efreet have this hilarious problem where they can only grant wishes to other people instead of themselves.


Were that the case, would one not be forced to conclude that the entire multiverse is naught but an elaborate illusion created by deranged gods who like watching violent lunatics kill various monsters and take their stuff?
Well, that's kind of what D&D is about -- stabbing monsters and taking their stuff.

However! If all this offends you, I suggest you try on this rationalization for size:

There are a lot of Efreet in the City of Brass! Tons! It's mostly made up of them! And generally, they all live under a great protection against annoying things like Planar Binding, due to some macguffin in the City of Brass. However, the City has law. And sometimes Efreet go foul of these law. So what's the universal punishment? The law-breaking Efreet has his or her [calling] protection removed, and they're stuck on bitch duty for a year (or however much time) -- vulnerable to Planar Binding and granting wishes to the people powerful enough to call them.

Alternatively, try this adventure hook: the PC summons an Efreet to get their pimp on. Upon appearing, the Efreet immediately cries out that someone is killing all the Efreet! The PCs must find and put a stop to this threat to the Wish economy. Preferably with lots of violence. And then gain the eternal gratitude of the Efreet.

[Fortuna]

I would just like to point out that Efreet can grant wishes to other Efreet. Hilarious problem solved. This being the case, one can use a wish to bind itself to another Efreet in a contract to protect each other by granting specific wishes of each other.

[Surgo]

No, they can't grant wishes to other Efreet. It says "to nongenies only".

[Fortuna]

Then amass a war party, grab some commoner from the Prime, and make a similar deal with him. "If you use one wish from each Efreet to give them immunity to Planar Binding et. al., you get a free wish for yourself."

[Surgo]

And that's just one way to end up with the rationalization method I gave in my post.

Somebody needs to answer the Planar Binding call, though. Otherwise we can't tell stories like Aladdin and that just makes me sad. It also means the spell doesn't work as specified in the Player's Handbook, and that's even worse.

[Grumman]

Sometimes, when I'm cynical, I get the feeling that's how the game works.
That's why you make sacrifices to the bloodthirsty elder god, Diem.


I would just like to point out that Efreet can grant wishes to other Efreet. Hilarious problem solved. This being the case, one can use a wish to bind itself to another Efreet in a contract to protect each other by granting specific wishes of each other.
I, for one, would love to see the players' faces when they discover the 9th level Restraint of Trade Clause.

[Fortuna]

And that's just one way to end up with the rationalization method I gave in my post.

Somebody needs to answer the Planar Binding call, though. Otherwise we can't tell stories like Aladdin and that just makes me sad. It also means the spell doesn't work as specified in the Player's Handbook, and that's even worse.

You have fun with that, Mr. Editor Sir. I'll be hiding over here until you get killed by the lynch mob retired with a fat pension.

[MickJay]

You get wish for free, and all exp costs become zero.

Wich means you can create a magic item worth 0 exp or improve an existing magic item by 0 exp. Wait a just a sec...:smalltongue:

Well, yes, that's what the description means, but apparently most people here consider it houseruling... I mean, the description is quite specific: cost of SLA Wish is 0 XP, but Wish description states that you must spend XP for making magic items, in addition to the 5000XP cost. It is more specific than the general "SLAs don't cost XP". Taken together, this would either mean you can't make magic items with SLA wish (because it would take XP, which SLAs don't cost), OR you'd need to pump some additional XP into SLA Wish. Of course, it's also RAW that DM can screw you over if you try to abuse Wishes, so it's all good anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

Ya, that too. Wouldn't trust an NPC though.

That's what Dominate Person is for! Or just wait until you save some useless NPC's life, and then take the time to roleplay a friendship with him. There's really no reason you can't have one or more trustworthy commoners following your around, watching your horses and loot, cooking dinner, and otherwise dealing with logistical needs. Historically, every arrant knight had a squire, and armies had entourages of camp followers, just to fulfill that purpose. Or if you really don't trust people, then buy several donkeys and guard dogs, and use Handle Animal to train them. They'd probably be even more trustworthy, since they can't actively betray you.

And again, I fully acknowledge that something WILL happen to them at some point. Maybe they'll be attacked, or kidnapped, or betray you, or go on a drunken bender with your stuff, whatever - and you'll have to rescue or avenge them. But you'll probably end up with more treasure by the end of the side quest, and it's not like you're dumb enough to leave your magic items with them.

[Dervag]

Issues with Fabricating (either via Fabricate or Wish) gold:
-Make them into coins, you get slapped for counterfeiting.Not necessarily true. Think about it.

How did coins get invented? Originally people just traded hunks of valuable metal because they were smaller and lighter than most other goods. At some point, a king in what is now Turkey had the bright idea of producing calibrated hunks of valuable metal (a fixed weight of gold-silver alloy) and stamping them with a royal mark. If the lump carried the mark, you had the king's word that the lump contained X gold and Y silver.

This practice spread, but (and this is important) you only have the king's word that the coins are valid. The coins are as valuable as the metal they're minted from, plus a little for the guarantee that they're good (which means you don't have to get them assayed to know how much gold you have).

Now, not just anyone can start minting their own coins in this situation. You have to be well known enough that people are inclined to take your word for it when you say a lump of yellow metal is gold, or to be afraid of the consequences of not taking your word, because you have an army who will stab them in the neck for calling you a liar.

But if a king can make their own currency at a royal mint, why can't a wizard? You may have a hard time convincing the first few people to take your coins, but once that becomes common practice in the lands around your tower, you're fine. Especially if you can get other powerful trusted figures to vouch for you.

And the coins aren't counterfeit: counterfeiting is the crime of faking someone else's currency. Which is a crime because of the danger that sneaky people will cheat, use impure metal to make coins, and then fake the king's signature/stamp/face. That makes people distrust the king's coins, which makes the king look bad, which makes his army stab you in the neck.

Of course, a king may take exception to you minting your own currency on the spot in the middle of his kingdom... but in the middle of a civilized kingdom you should be willing to find someone who will trade gold bricks for gold coins (like the Royal Mint).
_______


Partly because it fits their description. But also partly because, that way, there's just so much potential fun for everyone involved. :smallamused:Unless, of course, it is in the efreet's interest to gain a reputation for honest wish-granting; see below.


You spent all the money on trading cards? what about your sister? DnD Money Rules = NEED PAPER MONEY!!!There are major problems with paper money in a setting that lacks well organized nation-states because a large proportion of the world's total firepower is locked up in the hands of wandering adventurers. See the Economicon for reference.


Unfortunately, Efreet have this hilarious problem where they can only grant wishes to other people instead of themselves.Yes, as in "If you give me this valuable item, I will grant you a wish." Or "Be my bodyguard for a week, and I will grant you a wish." Or something like that.


There are a lot of Efreet in the City of Brass! Tons! It's mostly made up of them! And generally, they all live under a great protection against annoying things like Planar Binding, due to some macguffin in the City of Brass. However, the City has law. And sometimes Efreet go foul of these law. So what's the universal punishment? The law-breaking Efreet has his or her [calling] protection removed, and they're stuck on bitch duty for a year (or however much time) -- vulnerable to Planar Binding and granting wishes to the people powerful enough to call them.Clever.
_______


Say hello to nuclear physics. We can destroy and create the element gold. Expensive, but doable. But since nobody would benefit from it, nobody goes overboard with it.Doesn't work. Making atoms of gold from base metals is ludicrously more expensive than the actual gold is; you have to destroy other valuable resources (such as kilowatt-hours of electrical energy) to make the gold. So the value of gold will not increase significantly at this rate.

I'm surprised you didn't know that already.

[Oslecamo]

I'm surprised you didn't know that already.

Perhaps you didn't notice the "nobody would benefit from this" part. I was just pointing out that gold can be destroyed and created with our current technology. I never said that it was actualy a viable tactic for anything.

Similarly, an high level wizard has much better things to spend his magic power than to try to breack the economy and make a lot of enemies.

Specialy because the local wizard guild could just disintregate the extra gold to keep things in line, just like developed worlds destroy tons of perfectly fine food to keep the prices high.

Yes, that's right, humans are perfectly willing to waste perfectly useable resources if it means keeping the economy going.

EDIT:One thing we can make cheaply is diamonds! Pick coal, apply pressure, profit. Expensive, but still thousands of times cheaper than the real thing. Very used in industry and jewelery worldwide.

And what do the markets do? Artificial diamonds are just worth less than "natural" diamonds!

[Roog]

Only with the Dungeonomicon version of Wish, though. Otherwise Wish can just create anything and your setting starts to feel sad about itself.

The Dungeonomicon version of Wish uses the 3.0 Wish limits for items.

A wish can do any one of the following:...
- Create a valuable item, even a magic item, of up to 15,000 gp in value.

[Surgo]

Similarly, an high level wizard has much better things to spend his magic power than to try to breack the economy and make a lot of enemies.
As long as by the rules you can turn a pile of cash into a pile of power, you don't really have anything better to do.

Hence the Wish Economy.

[Asheram]

No, they can't grant wishes to other Efreet. It says "to nongenies only".

I really like D&D. The game where Evolution is extremely Sadistic.