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View Full Version : I see a lot of char ops using loremaster, what am I missing here?



taltamir
2009-12-16, 02:40 AM
I see a lot of char op users making a wizard / loremaster for their ToS.
I looked over the loremaster and it seemed utterly underwhelming to me; to the point of the prerequisites being a waste.
What exactly am I missing here that they see?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-16, 02:44 AM
UMD on an Arcanist full-caster PrC with 4+Int skills. Instant Mastery can boost it further, too. The prerequisites can be handled by taking the free bonus feat at either 1 or 3, which also helps to get you more feats later in the build.

sofawall
2009-12-16, 02:54 AM
It delays early feats until you actually have the prereqs for good ones.

Killer Angel
2009-12-16, 03:13 AM
I looked over the loremaster and it seemed utterly underwhelming to me; to the point of the prerequisites being a waste.


Core only, it's not a bad PrC... i could say that is definitely good.
A wiz./ loremaster, is better than a diviner wizard.
Prerequisites? The three metamagic or item creation feats, comes pratically for free (remember that Scribe Scroll is an item creation feat).
The only painful prerequisite, is the Skill focus feat, but then you obtain more than a straight wizard (and you can recover immediately the lost feat, with the appropriate secret).
And bardic knowledge is very useful.

Magnor Criol
2009-12-16, 03:35 AM
Really, the most critical point is that it's a full casting PrC. You lose absolutely nothing - save for familiar progression and the paltry two or three magic bonus feats left to you - for going into it from wizard.

So it's strictly better than a wizard because you advance as a Wiz, plus you get extra boons like UMD, double the skill points, and other little perks. The feat exchange is big too.

InaVegt
2009-12-16, 03:40 AM
So it's strictly better than a wizard because you advance as a Wiz, plus you get extra boons like UMD, double the skill points, and other little perks. The feat exchange is big too.

(Emphasis added)

Not really double the SP, unless you wish to be restricted to first level and lower spells.

Temotei
2009-12-16, 03:42 AM
Plus the bonus spells.

Kantolin
2009-12-16, 03:48 AM
I do think a major perk is that you really do trip into it at level 10 if you utterly don't care.

Being a level 10 wizard gets you all the prereqs except the skill focus. Taking the class as a level 10 wizard then gets you a bonus feat which can replace the skill focus you spent. Most wizards have at least one knowledge skill, and it's very thematic, logical, and likely that a given wizard has two with their plethora of skill points.

I mean. Just glance in the DMG, and 'Hey, I could be a loremaster.'

The abilities it grants aren't earth-shattering, but they advance your spellcasting and certainly don't hurt.

Pluto
2009-12-16, 04:50 AM
UMD makes familiars incredible.

The Bonus Feat is a good thing and the Fortitude and Reflex boosts don't hurt.

I don't like more than 5 levels though... I prefer the Wizard's metamagic to the other secrets/abilities.

Eldariel
2009-12-16, 08:27 AM
UMD makes familiars incredible.

The Bonus Feat is a good thing and the Fortitude and Reflex boosts don't hurt.

I don't like more than 5 levels though... I prefer the Wizard's metamagic to the other secrets/abilities.

I love Lore on high-Int types. Having sufficient information makes so much of the game so much easier, and Lore is a great way to do just that without excessive resource expediture. Also, free Identifies and eventually Legend Lore can be really useful.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 08:36 AM
It's 10/10 casting with useful abilities, what more do you need?

If you can qualify with Psion (or perhaps more flavorfully, Erudite) then it's better than most other psionic PrCs as well.

Emmerask
2009-12-16, 08:58 AM
UMD makes familiars incredible.

The Bonus Feat is a good thing and the Fortitude and Reflex boosts don't hurt.

I don't like more than 5 levels though... I prefer the Wizard's metamagic to the other secrets/abilities.

Hm why this ? I was under the impression that you can use any wand with arcane spells anyway and the cleric/druid spell list isnīt that impressive or special considering that you will have a limited amount of wands perhaps one cure wand and one lesser restoration? what makes it so great?^^

Khatoblepas
2009-12-16, 09:10 AM
Hm why this ? I was under the impression that you can use any wand with arcane spells anyway and the cleric/druid spell list isnīt that impressive or special considering that you will have a limited amount of wands perhaps one cure wand and one lesser restoration? what makes it so great?^^

I believe it's because while you can use any wand, your familiar can't since they aren't wizards :P

Emmerask
2009-12-16, 09:12 AM
I believe it's because while you can use any wand, your familiar can't since they aren't wizards :P

ahh that makes sense :smallbiggrin:

Cyclocone
2009-12-16, 09:15 AM
Hm why this ? I was under the impression that you can use any wand with arcane spells anyway and the cleric/druid spell list isnīt that impressive or special considering that you will have a limited amount of wands perhaps one cure wand and one lesser restoration? what makes it so great?^^

Beads of Karma for one thing.

Besides that, it also lets you use spells from schools you've barred; and really, the divine lists aren't that bad (Eventhough you can dupe the heavy stuff like Favor of the Martyr and Consumptive Field through Limited Wish).

Tyndmyr
2009-12-16, 09:15 AM
And hey, being able to use divine wands with no failure chance is also...handy.

If you take more than two levels, the other secrets, while not as awesome as the feat, also allow for save optimization, since they are untyped bonuses. While not amazing, it's still useful.

taltamir
2009-12-16, 12:06 PM
ok, the scribe scroll counting is pretty useful. Since you have to take quicken and probably will take another metamagic or item creation, those prereqs take care of themselves. You are also highly likely to have the knowledge prerequisites.

the extra skill points are nice, the speak language is nice if you go that route (which, incidently, i just did by having a wizard learn all languages in the SRD except druidic; 19 total)

The skill focus knowledge is a total waste. but you can get it back with the applicable knowledge... You do not however get it back at 1st level. Because at 1st level you have a loremaster level 1, and proabably an int bonus less than 7. (18 + 2 from level 4 and 8 = 20 = +5). The only good secret is the any feat of your choice (which is pretty good, and a solid choice from level 3 and up in this class). The +1 spell slot in level 1 or 2 is laughable. You have more level 1 and 2 slots than you can use by level 10+, and if not, a pearl of power is 1000gp or 4000gp for level 1 and 2 respectively.
EDIT: ok, weapon trick, dodge trick, and the three saves are also ok... especially since they stack with themselves and other feats. you can get really high saves that way.

The use magic device is awesome though and is something I missed; this totally justifies the class. Familiar casting spells from a wand to double all your actions per turn just rocks. This is awesome enough to justify the class and is the thing I was missing.
Well, that and a "feat every other level" ability. it is pretty nice. Shame about familiar progression though since this class actually makes the familiar worthwhile with UMD, while sacrificing its progression.

taltamir
2009-12-16, 12:42 PM
question, does a loremaster's bonus language allow druidic? Druidic is a secret language only available to druids (and a bunch of creatures) supposedly...

yet:

Bonus Languages
A loremaster can choose any new language at 4th and 8th level.
it says ANY language...

deuxhero
2009-12-16, 12:43 PM
A lore master actually can learn Drudic (and Drow signlanguage is also SRD, but it's only listed under Drow's monster entry) with her bonus languages (It lacks the exclusion of secret languages every other method of learning languages says)

edit:That was an odd Ninja post. It was meant to be in response to your first post.

Asbestos
2009-12-16, 12:48 PM
question, does a loremaster's bonus language allow druidic? Druidic is a secret language only available to druids (and a bunch of creatures) supposedly...

yet:

it says ANY language...
No doubt learning it causes some poor Druid somewhere in the world to fall for speaking Druidic around the magical polyglot and accidentally teaching the guy Druidic.

pffh
2009-12-16, 12:54 PM
ok, the scribe scroll counting is pretty useful. Since you have to take quicken and probably will take another metamagic or item creation, those prereqs take care of themselves. You are also highly likely to have the knowledge prerequisites.

the extra skill points are nice, the speak language is nice if you go that route (which, incidently, i just did by having a wizard learn all languages in the SRD except druidic; 19 total)

The skill focus knowledge is a total waste. but you can get it back with the applicable knowledge... You do not however get it back at 1st level. Because at 1st level you have a loremaster level 1, and proabably an int bonus less than 7. (18 + 2 from level 4 and 8 = 20 = +5). The only good secret is the any feat of your choice (which is pretty good, and a solid choice from level 3 and up in this class). The +1 spell slot in level 1 or 2 is laughable. You have more level 1 and 2 slots than you can use by level 10+, and if not, a pearl of power is 1000gp or 4000gp for level 1 and 2 respectively.
EDIT: ok, weapon trick, dodge trick, and the three saves are also ok... especially since they stack with themselves and other feats. you can get really high saves that way.

The use magic device is awesome though and is something I missed; this totally justifies the class. Familiar casting spells from a wand to double all your actions per turn just rocks. This is awesome enough to justify the class and is the thing I was missing.
Well, that and a "feat every other level" ability. it is pretty nice. Shame about familiar progression though since this class actually makes the familiar worthwhile with UMD, while sacrificing its progression.

You can't choose the same secret twice so you can only get the feat once, the saves once etc.

Swok
2009-12-16, 01:05 PM
Legend lore as a spell like ability is also rather nice.

taltamir
2009-12-16, 01:15 PM
ok... I reworked wizard 12 into wizard 7 loremaster 5... and I found my only sacrifice is 1 bab (which lowered it from 6/1 to 5).
I lost 1 fort and 1 ref to gain 1 will. At level 1 I took a +2 reflex secret to compensate. (not qualified for extra feat, yet)

at level 3 and 5 I took extra feats. So it compensated for the skill focus knowledge and the loss of a wizard bonus feat @ level 10. So I have not had to sacrifice any wanted feats. As a bonus I had more flexibility in choosing them AND I got myself a +3 on knowledge arcanna rolls.
the extra 2 skill points per level rock, the class skill speak language also rocks because I had chosen all 19 languages in SRD. now I got them for half price.
I also gained lore.

My familiar lost 1 point of int, and 2 points of natural armor and spell resistance 17... but he gained UMD instead.

Overall, an excellent trade.
Is druid or drow sign language a better choice? I think drow sign language would be...

Sallera
2009-12-16, 02:48 PM
Sign language would probably be more useful, aye. And you can't take the same secret twice, so you can only get one bonus feat.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 02:53 PM
Note that UMD is only as useful as your access to scrolls & wands. If your wands & scrolls are mostly random, UMD will be far less useful than if you could buy a couple of scrolls of an obscure spell from an obscure prestige class for an obscure, but incredibly deadly, situation.

Burning through your wealth also makes more sense in arena style play. If you're going to be playing a character for a long time, it's not as worth it.

Draz74
2009-12-16, 03:56 PM
you can't take the same secret twice, so you can only get one bonus feat.

Quoted for emphasis. Trust me, the class would be a lot more popular if you could pick the Feat secret repeatedly.

Kylarra
2009-12-16, 03:58 PM
Quoted for emphasis. Trust me, the class would be a lot more popular if you could pick the Feat secret repeatedly.
It'd be ridiculous if you could. :smalltongue:

Mongoose87
2009-12-16, 04:03 PM
Quoted for emphasis. Trust me, the class would be a lot more popular if you could pick the Feat secret repeatedly.

Yes, but that would be because it would be extreme cheese.

deuxhero
2009-12-16, 04:05 PM
Legend lore as a spell like ability is also rather nice.

Yeah, standard action with no cost elimanates a good chunk of LL's suck.

taltamir
2009-12-16, 04:09 PM
Sign language would probably be more useful, aye. And you can't take the same secret twice, so you can only get one bonus feat.

an important distinction. I will correct my feats then.

the +1 to attack is not to BAB, but just a general bonus, correct?

erikun
2009-12-16, 04:15 PM
Correct, it is a general (nonspecified, stacks with anything) bonus.

As for why it is popular, look at the prerequisites. Knowledge (any two) 10 ranks, which most wizards will do automatically. Three metamagic/item creation feats, one of which can be Scribe Scroll and most casters will want Craft Wand, Quicken Spell, or some other metamagic. Skill Focus is the only "bad" feat, but you get 10/10 spellcasting and several useful abilities (including a free feat, if desired) in exchange.

deuxhero
2009-12-16, 04:16 PM
It's not. For one it's only to accuracy (not that it matters, your only taking it for touch attacks). On the subject Dodge Trick is not dodge (it's better because it works on everyone though), secret health is not toughness, and the +2 saves trio are not Great ____ (though if I were the DM I'd let dodge trick and secret health work for qualifications).

DragoonWraith
2009-12-16, 05:04 PM
and I found my only sacrifice is 1 bab (which lowered it from 6/1 to 5).
I lost 1 fort and 1 ref to gain 1 will.
Why oh why are you not using fractional BAB/saves?

taltamir
2009-12-17, 11:11 AM
Why oh why are you not using fractional BAB/saves?

am I allowed to by ToS rules?

DragoonWraith
2009-12-17, 02:20 PM
Looking it up, no, you are not. Well, that's stupid; they've done a great job with ToS, but I don't like that rule at all.

Still, they know massively better than I do. Maybe that particular format requires it, or something.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 02:30 PM
One PC I had in a gestalt campaign was a Wizard//Archivist 10/Loremaster 5/Tainted Scholar 5. He was the Librarian from Hell. He had like 30 books, all of which had the most obscure spells in D&D in them. One was titled "Offense Pt. 1", and another was titled simply "Evil"....

His character was a bookworm who spent hundreds of years in a hidden Library that sealed him inside until he read every book. He became a Lich and stepped into the light for the first time in 900 years and was amazed to find us all there. He joined and was a true asset to a party with a divine bard//cleric, a dragon shaman//Marshall, a Knight//Paladin, a Ranger//Rogue, and a warlock//binder

sofawall
2009-12-17, 02:33 PM
Looking it up, no, you are not. Well, that's stupid; they've done a great job with ToS, but I don't like that rule at all.

Still, they know massively better than I do. Maybe that particular format requires it, or something.

For the record, a few ToS folks do prefer fractional BAB, but fractional saves as written are damn stupid.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-17, 03:15 PM
I assume you refer to the recurring +2? I could go either way on that. But to lose a point of save because you multiclass at 6 instead of at 7? That is damn stupid.

sofawall
2009-12-17, 03:19 PM
I assume you refer to the recurring +2? I could go either way on that. But to lose a point of save because you multiclass at 6 instead of at 7? That is damn stupid.

I refer to the recurring +2.

Tavar
2009-12-17, 03:26 PM
I refer to the recurring +2.

How is it worse in Fractional bab/saves than regular? Of course, this is someone who for a long time thought that fractional saves got rid of that, but still.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-17, 03:28 PM
It's a trivial houserule to say that it does. But even if it doesn't, like you say - that's the same as non-fractional saves, and it is still far less stupid than non-fractional saves.

For ToS, I assume that it's in place because they try to modify 3.5 as little as possible, and because they're talking about such a high level of optimization most of the time that they expect people to work around such an arbitrary and stupid limitation.

sofawall
2009-12-17, 03:31 PM
How is it worse in Fractional bab/saves than regular? Of course, this is someone who for a long time thought that fractional saves got rid of that, but still.

It isn't worse than normal, but it is worse than it should be.

taltamir
2009-12-17, 03:37 PM
I would think the sensible thing would be to say:
BAB = RoundDown(<sum of full BAB class levels> + 0.75(sum of medium BAB class levels) +0.5(sum of low BAB class levels)). So basically, add up all the babs using fractions and then round down in the end.

And Saves:
1. You get a +2 to base save the first time you take a level that gives it as a high save, you may gain this only once per save type.
(so a wizard will start with +2 will, taking a level of monk will give him +2 fort and ref, but not an additional +2 will)

2. Each <save> = RoundDown(<sum of high <save> classes>/2 + <sum of low <save> classes>/3)

The RoundDown being outside the parenthesis means it happens after you have added all the numbers together...

So, for example, a wizard 1/sorcerer 1/monk3/fighter 2:
BAB: 2 low levels (sorcerer and wizard), 3 medium levels (monk) and 2 high levels (fighter) = RoundDown (2*0.5 + 3*0.75 + 2) = 5

For saves, it has:
Fort: 2 low levels, 5 high levels = RoundDown(2/3 + 5/2) + 2 (bonus from having a high save class) = 5
Reflex: 4 low levels, 3 high levels = RoundDown(4/3 + 3/2) + 2 (bonus from having a high save class) = 4
Will: 5 low levels, 2 high levels = RoundDown(5/3 + 2/2) + 2 (bonus from having a high save class) = 4

If you are single classing, you can use the above calculations and get the same values as printed for your class.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-17, 08:53 PM
Yes, that makes sense. That's how the game should be played; anything else just doesn't really make much sense.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-17, 10:20 PM
Yeah...in fact, i played fractional saves as that for a long, long time before I realized I was doing it "wrong". I never really read thee rules that much, just heard "fractional saves", and my mind jumped to this idea and went, "yeah, that makes sense".