[3.5] Build Help (Cleric or Wizard) Core Only

[babus]

Hello, this thread is sort of a followup to one I made a while back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7396331), and I am playing in my first campaign, with a first-time DM. She's ruled core-only, as those are the only books she's familiarized herself with so far (rather than for any reasons of balance, and this may mean that my options could widen as she reads through more books). I'm playing a Human with the following ability scores:

Constitution: 10
Wisdom: 14
Intelligence: 16
Charisma 13
Dexterity 13
Strength 11

These were rolled stats, though, so feel free to shuffle the numbers around.

My party consists of a human wizard, a human sorceror, a dwarf cleric, a dwarf fighter, and a halfling rogue; I have 160 gold for starting equipment. I am looking for a build, as well as for what to spend this gold on. I'm not asking for a fully optimized build here or anything, just one that fits the concept, will be fun to play, and will contribute well to the party (preferably without rendering anyone obsolete).

As far as class goes, I'm torn between Wizard and Cleric. I'm interested in playing a Necromancer (eventually becoming a Lich, as well). Regardless of class, the character is a devout follower of Wee Jas, and Lawful Neutral.

Thank you in advance for any help.

[Ecalsneerg]

Ok, are you interested in the 'blasty' debuff necromancy, or raising the dead? The former, go Wizard. The latter, Cleric, as you get Rebuke Undead, and Animate Dead is a couple of levels earlier.

Statwise, stick the 16 in Int or Wis, and the 14 goes in Con. HP = good. Were you not using core-only, I'd suggest Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, as it turns you undead at low levels for no LA, but if you can't get that, Con 14. I'd really advise against lich, as it's got a high LA and thus becoming one is like deciding to be a caster without real casting for his level (so, an... er?)

[babus]

Thank you for the response, and yes, Undead Raising kind.


I'd really advise against lich, as it's got a high LA and thus becoming one is like deciding to be a caster without real casting for his level (so, an... er?)

In this particular campaign, the odds of her reaching level eleven to actually craft the phylactery are fairly low, so I'm less concerned with the crippling XP curve than I normally would be, if only because the party making it to twelve or thirteen is questionable.


and the 14 goes in Con. HP = good. Were you not using core-only, I'd suggest Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, as it turns you undead at low levels for no LA, but if you can't get that, Con 14

Yes, in hindsight, using Constitution as a dump stat is probably a very bad idea. I had rationalized it with the fact that I'd eventually not have the stat, but making it that far is already in enough doubt as it is.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You might want to look into becoming a Loremaster or Red Wizard if you're a wizard, and Thaumaturgist if you're a cleric.

[babus]

Our Wizard intends to be a Loremaster with a focus on Conjuration, but Thaumaturgist does seem rather interesting.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Using Red Wizard's Circle of Magic, you can get a CL of 40, before things such as Ioun Stones and Beads of Karma come into play. Imagine how much undead you can make with that...

[babus]

I had somehow never even heard of this class. It has an unfortunate perquisite of "Human from Thay", but I can at least ask for a wave on that. Thanks.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You should. Thay is a country specific to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting only. Why they included it in the DMG remains a mystery to me.

[babus]

I do notice that it requires finding a good number of other Wizards with Tattoo Focuses. Granted, finding fellow Jasitins that might be willing to perform such a ritual might be easy, but getting a feat onto them might be a tad more difficult. (Edit: Actually read it and found that it could be inscribed by a seventh level Red Wizard) I mean, the other Wizard in our party may not be against taking what is essentially a specialization bonus, but that's only two people.

[Optimystik]

I second Cleric/Thaumaturgist - Create Undead will allow you to command powerful creatures with your rebuking. Your DM will likely be more on board with you commanding a few powerful minions instead of a legion of weaker ones, as they bog down combat a bit. You can also ask him if you can assign control of some of them to the other party members, so you aren't hogging the spotlight.

If you don't want to be evil, be pragmatic in your undead creation. Aim for neutrality - depending on your DM, it might not be easy since your best spells will keep dinging your alignment. During your travels, keep your eyes peeled for burning orphanages. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

I do notice that it requires finding a good number of other Wizards with Tattoo Focuses. Granted, finding fellow Jasitins that might be willing to perform such a ritual might be easy, but getting a feat onto them might be a tad more difficult. (Edit: Actually read it and found that it could be inscribed by a seventh level Red Wizard) I mean, the other Wizard in our party may not be against taking what is essentially a specialization bonus, but that's only two people.

1) Leadership is a good way to solve the "other Wizards with Tattoo Focus"-problem.

2) Simulacrums (level 7 spell) of yourself are even better, and don't require the potential brokenness that is Leadership.

[Optimystik]

Wait - Leadership is broken, but Simulacrum isn't? :smallconfused:

[Kaiyanwang]

Wait - Leadership is broken, but Simulacrum isn't? :smallconfused:

One could say that Leadership leads to more "DM headache". Just consider followers..

I don't even remeber if the Cohort can take leadership of his own.. and so on.

[Cyclocone]

A cohort can also contribute in combat*, thus doubling you actions/round; whereas the Simulacrum has some pretty glaring flaws, and is much too expensive** to put on the line like that anyway.

*Provided it's playing a real class ofcourse; but if you're using it for Circle Magic, it obviously is.
**Assuming you aren't getting them for free with Wish cheese, you bad, bad munchkin.

[Eldariel]

Wait - Leadership is broken, but Simulacrum isn't? :smallconfused:

Leadership is a lot more broken than Simulacrum, though Simulacrum is fookin' broken too.

[babus]

I second Cleric/Thaumaturgist - Create Undead will allow you to command powerful creatures with your rebuking. Your DM will likely be more on board with you commanding a few powerful minions instead of a legion of weaker ones, as they bog down combat a bit. You can also ask him if you can assign control of some of them to the other party members, so you aren't hogging the spotlight.

The DM seems to be fine with a lot of little undead, so long as the swarm rules we talked about are implemented as to make even 100 undead rabbits a single combat roll. I am aware that my love of the concept will die when the first fireball wipes my 'little' army, though :smallsmile: .


If you don't want to be evil, be pragmatic in your undead creation. Aim for neutrality - depending on your DM, it might not be easy since your best spells will keep dinging your alignment. During your travels, keep your eyes peeled for burning orphanages. :smallwink:

Yes, though sadly Wee Jas looks down on non consensual animation. Granted, with a high enough Diplo score, I suppose I could just ask said orphans to give up their lives for the sake of a higher power.

@Eldariel
I will look into that, and if Red Wizard ends up working out, then perhaps it would actually make sense to have a few moving targets lower level wizards around, if only for the fact that I may be accidentally starting a Jasitin Cult by even being one in this setting.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yes, though sadly Wee Jas looks down on non consensual animation. Granted, with a high enough Diplo score, I suppose I could just ask said orphans to give up their lives for the sake of a higher power.I think the 'burning orphanage' thing meant that you should save the lives of the ones you can, and animate the rest, to keep yourself Neutral. Just make sure you don't do one in full view of the other. :smallwink:

[Arakune]

Don't forget to fight your eternal nemesis, the Burning Hate.

[babus]

Ah. Still not sure what's wise in terms of feats and such, though. As nice as it is to dream of Tattoo clad prestige classes and Lichdom, things like starting equipment and starting feats are the things I need to figure out. Will need to see if she's okay with Red Wizard, though, as Cleric is still a great choice it seems.


Don't forget to fight your eternal nemesis, the Burning Hate.

I may want to wait until level 20+ to topple Pelor.