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View Full Version : [4e] Bugbears, Big Dice, and Rangers



Hashmir
2009-12-16, 05:58 AM
So, I was bored and decided to make up a variety of characters, in the hopes of getting a feel for various classes and builds without playing 50 different campaigns. When I made my two-weapon ranger, however, I was delighted to discover the joys of bugbears and their large weapons.

Now, I'm obviously not the first person to discover that large weapons combined with the ranger ability to wield two one-handeds leads to large quantities of hilariously large dice, but I am curious about just how far one could push it. Right now, I'm looking at two large bastard swords (1d12 each), which is technically "smaller" than the large waraxe's 2d6, but has the extra +1.

So are there any other ways to boost weapon die size? Is "larging" it the end? I do hope there's something I don't know about...

Gralamin
2009-12-16, 06:00 AM
So, I was bored and decided to make up a variety of characters, in the hopes of getting a feel for various classes and builds without playing 50 different campaigns. When I made my two-weapon ranger, however, I was delighted to discover the joys of bugbears and their large weapons.

Now, I'm obviously not the first person to discover that large weapons combined with the ranger ability to wield two one-handeds leads to large quantities of hilariously large dice, but I am curious about just how far one could push it. Right now, I'm looking at two large bastard swords (1d12 each), which is technically "smaller" than the large waraxe's 2d6, but has the extra +1.

So are there any other ways to boost weapon die size? Is "larging" it the end? I do hope there's something I don't know about...

"Larging" is the end. In fact, it is slowly being traded out. The minotaur, for example, lost the ability in Dragon.

Hashmir
2009-12-16, 06:07 AM
"Larging" is the end. In fact, it is slowly being traded out. The minotaur, for example, lost the ability in Dragon.

This saddens me. A little. Although I wonder why they feel the need to phase large weapons out -- what purpose does it serve other than allowing Minotaurs and Bugbears to do around 1 extra damage per |W|?

Kurald Galain
2009-12-16, 06:09 AM
"Larging" is the end. In fact, it is slowly being traded out. The minotaur, for example, lost the ability in Dragon.

...or so people assume. There has been no official word about this from WOTC, and it has not been changed in the two big erratas so far. It may be the case that bugbears are intended to use oversized weapons, and minotaurs are not.

Edge of Dreams
2009-12-16, 06:14 AM
The "oversized" racial ability is being removed by errata on all races that had it.

The main reason is that it is out of line with other racial abilities. Most racials give a small boost once an encounter. Oversized gives you an extra 1 or 2 damage per [w], however at higher levels, things like a 5[w] attack get 5 extra damage, which is too much for a racial to be granting, especially when you compare to feats like weapon focus.

There's also some other little issues with it, like a 1d12 brutal 2 weapon turning into 2d6 brutal 2, which is really really good. Combine that with the Vorpal property at epic levels that lets you reroll and keep adding max rolls, and your expected damage goes way way up.

Is oversized horrible stinky cheese by itself? Not really. Is it the gateway to some other kind of OMG OVERPOWERED combo? Eh, not likely. Is it too good for a racial ability? Yes.

Best fix if you agree with me, but still want it in game, is to make it a racial feat for certain races.

Hashmir
2009-12-16, 06:21 AM
The "oversized" racial ability is being removed by errata on all races that had it.

The main reason is that it is out of line with other racial abilities. Most racials give a small boost once an encounter. Oversized gives you an extra 1 or 2 damage per [w], however at higher levels, things like a 5[w] attack get 5 extra damage, which is too much for a racial to be granting, especially when you compare to feats like weapon focus.

There's also some other little issues with it, like a 1d12 brutal 2 weapon turning into 2d6 brutal 2, which is really really good. Combine that with the Vorpal property at epic levels that lets you reroll and keep adding max rolls, and your expected damage goes way way up.

Is oversized horrible stinky cheese by itself? Not really. Is it the gateway to some other kind of OMG OVERPOWERED combo? Eh, not likely. Is it too good for a racial ability? Yes.

Best fix if you agree with me, but still want it in game, is to make it a racial feat for certain races.

I suppose I can see how upping the |W| value is a bit much. Although I feel that as of right now, it is generally balanced for at least the bugbear, due to the complete lack of racial feats. While this does leave plenty of open feat slots for other things, there is a distinct opportunity cost compared to, say, making the same character as a half-orc. If/when they errata it out, I hope it comes with corresponding racial feats.

Also, I thought that 1d12 Brutal 2 turned into 2d6 Brutal 1. This may simply have been a discussion of houserule treatment, though.

Edge of Dreams
2009-12-16, 06:24 AM
I suppose I can see how upping the |W| value is a bit much. Although I feel that as of right now, it is generally balanced for at least the bugbear, due to the complete lack of racial feats. While this does leave plenty of open feat slots for other things, there is a distinct opportunity cost compared to, say, making the same character as a half-orc. If/when they errata it out, I hope it comes with corresponding racial feats.

Also, I thought that 1d12 Brutal 2 turned into 2d6 Brutal 1. This may simply have been a discussion of houserule treatment, though.

Lack of racial feats is a definite consideration. They may have removed it from minotaur because they either already did or are planning to add racial feat support to it (I don't know, not an insider)

As far as I know, no official rule exists for how brutal interacts with weapon size changes, so most people I've seen assume that it stays Brutal 2.

Inyssius Tor
2009-12-16, 06:58 AM
...or so people assume. There has been no official word about this from WOTC, and it has not been changed in the two big erratas so far. It may be the case that bugbears are intended to use oversized weapons, and minotaurs are not.

Mike Mearls:


The Monster Manual racial descriptions were never intended to be the canonical mechanics for those races. As the MM itself states, those stats are for DMs to create NPCs. You can use them as PCs, but a DM allows them at his own peril.

Thus, you'll see things like giving monsters oversized weapons and not giving them to official PC races. As others have pointed out, oversized weapons in PC hands are simply too good. It makes those races strictly better with weapons. If a PC race somehow gets it, expect it to be errata'd as soon as I see it.

Duos Greanleef
2009-12-16, 10:06 AM
It's been my experience, in a party with a bugbear and a party with a minotaur pre-errata, that the minotaur was devastatingly effective at being a weapon-wielding psychopath.
Bugbears suck at everything they do. They also don't get anything else but a "called shot" sneak attack. You have to use the power. if you miss, too bad.
You suck. Have a nice day.
I see no issues with giving Bugbears extra damage.

dsmiles
2009-12-16, 10:14 AM
"Larging" is the end. In fact, it is slowly being traded out. The minotaur, for example, lost the ability in Dragon.

Thank the gods for that.

Asbestos
2009-12-16, 12:35 PM
It's been my experience, in a party with a bugbear and a party with a minotaur pre-errata, that the minotaur was devastatingly effective at being a weapon-wielding psychopath.
Bugbears suck at everything they do. They also don't get anything else but a "called shot" sneak attack. You have to use the power. if you miss, too bad.
You suck. Have a nice day.
I see no issues with giving Bugbears extra damage.

Was the Bugbear a Brutal Scoundrel Rouge Rogue throwing Double-Large Shuriken and stacking SA, BS extra damage, and Predatory Eye onto an attack 1/encounter? If not, they were doing it wrong.