Supreme Cleave

[Kaiyanwang]

So, I was thinking about ana agile, reactive melee character. Someone able to push his enemies, and at the same time elusively avoid to remain for a long time in melee, if does not need it.

The thing has been triggered reading the Wolf Pack Tactics stance from Tiger Claw. This stance allows a 5-feet step each time you strike an enemy.

Moreover, there are few mobility-tier feats that allow to make a 5-feet step every time an enemy triggers an AOO.

Maybe it's enough, but to increase even more mobility in melee I was thinking about the "Supreme Cleave" class feature (allowing a 5-foot step before a cleave attack, not limited by your movement).

I found having it Frienzed Berserk (Not Again please) and Sword and Fist's Master Samurai. Maybe I can work on MS, but I was wondering.. is there another class or prestige class that has this feature, or an equivalent one? Whole WOTC* 3.x is ok, dragon / dungeon magazine too!

I want to combine all of this for a bunch of comboes (as an example, charge, evade frome melee and then re-charge, and so on..)

Thank you in advance


*fixed now. Sorry for my lack of clarity :smallredface:

[dsmiles]

I like the MS, except for the whole mounted combat thing...not a big fan of mounted combat...:smallannoyed:

[Kaiyanwang]

I like the MS, except for the whole mounted combat thing...not a big fan of mounted combat...:smallannoyed:

Yeah, I could get well with that (2 levels) for a particular feat combo (partially overcoming MC :smallbiggrin:) but i wish to knowif there is another way, maybe with some other useful feature..

[RagnaroksChosen]

So, I was thinking about ana agile, reactive melee character. Someone able to push his enemies, and at the same time elusively avoid to remain for a long time in melee, if does not need it.

The thing has been triggered reading the Wolf Pack Tactics stance from Tiger Claw. This stance allows a 5-feet step each time you strike an enemy.

Moreover, there are few mobility-tier feats that allow to make a 5-feet step every time an enemy triggers an AOO.

Maybe it's enough, but to increase even more mobility in melee I was thinking about the "Supreme Cleave" class feature (allowing a 5-foot step before a cleave attack, not limited by your movement).

I found having it Frienzed Berserk (Not Again please) and Sword and Fist's Master Samurai. Maybe I can work on MS, but I was wondering.. is there another class or prestige class that has this feature, or an equivalent one? Whole 3.x is ok, dragon / dungeon magazine too!

I want to combine all of this for a bunch of comboes (as an example, charge, evade frome melee and then re-charge, and so on..)

Thank you in advance!
Doesn't great cleave allow 5ft steps?

[dsmiles]

Doesn't great cleave allow 5ft steps?

Nope, that's supreme cleave.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Nope, that's supreme cleave.

whats that out of?


Edit: I thought there was a feat that lets you do it?

[Cyclocone]

Knight Protector from CWar gets Supreme Cleave as well. (Probably easier on everyones nerves too.)

The Sparring Dummy of the Master from AaEG allows you to take 10ft steps instead, although you need to be a Monk to use it (Hint: UMD).

Also, Robilars Gambit. Just incase you havn't seen it

[Person_Man]

Adding 5 ft of reach effectively does the same thing. (In fact, it's clearly better). There are dozens of ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) to do so. I'd also add that there are dozens of better ways to add extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595).

A Tactical Soldier (Miniature's Handbook) get the "Delayed Cleave" ability, which allows you to take an Cleave if someone else kills the last person you hit in combat, as long as you still threaten your original target. However, Tactical Soldier is a pretty cruddy PrC (though it's good for a few builds as 2 level dip to get it's Flanking ability and Sidestep).

Speaking of Sidestep, it allows a free 5 ft step once per round after you make an attack of opportunity, which doesn't count as using your normal 5 ft step. If you can kill someone with that AoO, a reasonable DM might allow you to take your free 5 ft before your Cleave, since it's not your normal 5 ft step.

[Kaiyanwang]

Knight Protector from CWar gets Supreme Cleave as well. (Probably easier on everyones nerves too.)

Completely missed it. :smallredface: And it's at level 3.. but with affordable prereqs. Thank you! It the best one until now.



The Sparring Dummy of the Master from AaEG allows you to take 10ft steps instead, although you need to be a Monk to use it (Hint: UMD).


Good Point. It's gestalt, a monk could be "pressed" into the build.. the PC is lawful, too :smalltongue:



Also, Robilars Gambit. Just incase you havn't seen it

Yeah, the "combo" includes it too. You take only one hit, maybe suppressed with elusive target (after all, if you sweared to take mobility..) and then left the dirty place.

Person_man: Good advice about reach... until now, enlarge person only is available - but easily. I will check for more. Iron hearth cold come in help I guess.

The 2 levels of TS could be handy. The prereqs are available quickly. I can refluff the whole 3+2 (Cyclocone + P_M) in another prestige class :smallconfused: very good.

[Sir.Swindle]

Sword & Sorcery made the first Warcraft RPG as a D20 supplement (in that it referenced the D&D players hand book for some classes)

Gladiator from that book had supreme cleave and some other goodies.

[Kaiyanwang]

Sword & Sorcery made the first Warcraft RPG as a D20 supplement (in that it referenced the D&D players hand book for some classes)

Gladiator from that book had supreme cleave and some other goodies.

I fixed the 1st post - I intended any wotc material, but thanks anyway.

[Telonius]

Hm, going for an alternate Commoner Railgun there (albeit one that kills the commoners)?

[Kaiyanwang]

Hm, going for an alternate Commoner Railgun there (albeit one that kills the commoners)?

Please, explain! You made me curious!

[Telonius]

Supreme Cleave grants you a 5-foot step in-between each attack, right? Line up the commoners and start swinging. You'll only stop moving when you roll a number of 1's equal to your number of attacks.

If you can find a way to avoid an auto-fail on a 1, you could theoretically exceed light speed, given enough commoners.

[Kaiyanwang]

Supreme Cleave grants you a 5-foot step in-between each attack, right? Line up the commoners and start swinging. You'll only stop moving when you roll a number of 1's equal to your number of attacks.

If you can find a way to avoid an auto-fail on a 1, you could theoretically exceed light speed, given enough commoners.

:smallbiggrin: Nice.

[kjones]

I always assumed that Sparring Dummy of the Master was serious cheese... is that only if you're using it for Scouts? Are 10-ft steps reasonable for people who don't have Skirmish?

[Telonius]

No, they're not really reasonable if you're fighting same-size creatures. Say you have a Fighter5/Monk1 with a spiked chain*, and an orc (Fighter6) right next to each other. Orc wins initiative and hits for two attacks:
FO

Fighter hits the orc with a full attack (two attacks), and takes a 10-foot step back.
FxxO

Round two. If the orc still wants to be in melee, he has to move ten feet to get next to the fighter. But after the first square, the orc is threatened and the fighter hits him with an attack of opportunity when he moves out of the square. (Unless the Orc happens to roll really well on his Tumble check, which is by no means a sure thing).
FxOx

The orc gets up next to him and makes a single attack.
FOxx

Fighter hits him for a full attack and takes a ten foot adjustment.
FxxO

So, after two rounds, the orc has gotten a grand total of three attacks in. Fighter, on the other hand, has gotten five. This isn't as big of a deal if you're fighting larger foes, who will typically threaten at the FxOx position. But against other medium creatures? Cheesy.

*Fighter could also have gotten a potion of Enlarge Person, or any other method of increasing the range at which he threatens (Short Haft, etc.)

[Person_Man]

I always assumed that Sparring Dummy of the Master was serious cheese... is that only if you're using it for Scouts? Are 10-ft steps reasonable for people who don't have Skirmish?

I respectfully disagree with Telonius, and would argue that every melee build should find a way to get Pounce and free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) by ECL 6-11ish, so that they can take a full attack action every round. Why should melee builds be limited to attacking a single enemy, and/or have to fight on even terms with them in their ratio of attacks, when magical classes can bend reality to their whim? If you think the Sparring Dummy of the Master (which requires a level of Monk) is cheese, then you should read Travel Devotion, Hustle, White Raven Tactics, and the Swiftblade.

[erikun]

Supreme Cleave grants you a 5-foot step in-between each attack, right? Line up the commoners and start swinging. You'll only stop moving when you roll a number of 1's equal to your number of attacks.

If you can find a way to avoid an auto-fail on a 1, you could theoretically exceed light speed, given enough commoners.
Your Supreme Cleavage shall cover the entire battlefield! :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

If you think the Sparring Dummy of the Master (which requires a level of Monk) is cheese, then you should read Travel Devotion, Hustle, White Raven Tactics, and the Swiftblade.

... examples of much cheesier cheese. IMO, melee classes should not have such easy access to Pounce. (I should mention that my list of things that spellcasting classes should not have access to is quite a bit longer).

[KillianHawkeye]

Supreme Cleave grants you a 5-foot step in-between each attack, right?

I'm pretty sure that supreme cleave on it's own doesn't grant you the ability to take more than one 5-foot step per round, but I'm guessing that that ToB stance mentioned in the OP gets around that limitation.

[Kaiyanwang]

... examples of much cheesier cheese. IMO, melee classes should not have such easy access to Pounce. (I should mention that my list of things that spellcasting classes should not have access to is quite a bit longer).

It depends from the power level of the campaing. As an example, I feel that level 6-11 could be early for a shocktrooper charger, but TWF should at least have 2 strikes.

Nevertheless, at higher level pounce is fun and not broken in my experience.

Enemies can be so powerful and can have such mobility that part of the fun of the party could be spent few round to catch them allowing the charger to nuke.

Teamwork is fun.

And remeber: you could charge a target, and he could karmik strike a stunning fist on you ad stop you.

"I reach the enemy" is different from "I win".


I always assumed that Sparring Dummy of the Master was serious cheese... is that only if you're using it for Scouts? Are 10-ft steps reasonable for people who don't have Skirmish?

Well, re-reading FB and Knight protector, I see that the former is limited to 1/round, and the latter is not.

If this is intended, or is another case of poor editing.. who knows?

But even the 1/round could be useful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Cleave ability specifically says it follows the normal rules of a 5-ft. step, i.e. no more than one per round and not if you've already moved. Here's the Master Samurai's Supreme Cleave:

Supreme Cleave: At 2nd level, the master samurai gains the ability to take a 5-foot step before making a Cleave or Great Cleave attack.
Note that it does not say or even imply that it allows a character to supersede the normal rules for making a 5-ft. step, only that he can make his 5-ft. step for the round between making an attack and making a (great) cleave attack. That he can only do this once in a round and that he cannot do it if he's already moved that round is given in the Combat chapter, and should go without saying. The only rule it bypasses is the one attached to (great) cleave, which specifically says that you cannot make a 5-ft. step between those attacks. Supreme Cleave does not allow you to make more than one 5-ft. step in a round, it does not even imply this, and any attempt to do so would be cheating given the following:

Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

[Kaiyanwang]

I see - so it's a second round AND situational bonus. I have to carefully consider it.

Thank you all!

[Cyclocone]

The Warmind's Sweeping Strike ability warrants mentioning as well, if you're looking to attack lots of people simultaneously.