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Optimystik
2009-12-16, 10:26 AM
I think this may have been asked before, but I never actually saw a common solution to this.

So I've been trying to wrap my head around the Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1) and figure out exactly what makes it different from a Psion. I've figured out that they can learn new powers through Psicraft checks, instead of relying solely on level-ups like Psions do. So in that way, they're kind of like a "psionic wizard." I've also figured out that they lose versatility any time they actually USE those powers - they lose a unique power per day usage, and when they run out they can only manifest powers they've already manifested that day even if they know many others.

So far so good. But then I hit upon the wording snag that I know people have tripped over with this class before: the text mentions "unique powers per level per day" while the table only mentions "unique powers per day." This raised my first set of questions

1) Let me see if I have this straight: at 4th level, an Erudite has 4 UP/D according to the table. If my logic is correct, the under the first interpretation ("unique powers per level per day") that's 4 unique 2nd-level powers and 4 unique 1st-level powers. Under the second interpretation ("unique powers per day"), it's 4 unique powers from across all the power levels he has access to. Is this right?

2) Which interpretation do most Erudite players use?

3) How does Erudite interact with PrCs? Say I go Ectopic Adept, would my UP/D increase along with my Power Points, or would I be stuck with the same UP/D I had first?

4) Does the restriction on "equal levels in a psionic class" shutting off your learning mechanic (the "Exception" under "Adding Powers") apply to classes that progress your manifesting but aren't explicitly psionic, like Loremaster or Uncanny Trickster?

5) Is there any way for them to learn 9th-level discipline powers without using the Variants? (Discussed further below)

Secondly, I had questions about the Variant Erudites. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) (Variants of a variant? Pime Taradox!)

6) Favored Discipline Erudite - can I learn any power at all from my discipline regardless of class? For example, if I chose Psychometabolism, could I find a Psywar and learn Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) from him?

7) Would the FD Erudite be able to learn maximum-level Discipline Powers? For example, could I learn Time Regression from a Nomad if I chose Psychoportation?

8) Mantled Erudite: Can you choose powers from the chosen mantle as your normal "level-up" powers, or are they restricted to being learned, say by picking the brain of an Ardent?

Lastly, Spell to Power Erudite. Hoo boy. Yes, this gets its own section.

9) How on earth does this interact with Dweomer of Transference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/dweomerOfTransference.htm)? Can you both learn the spell AND get the PP to manifest it?

10) I get that you have to Augment burn spells as if they were powers to get full damage out of them, but what about save DC? Does it increase along with the augmentation also, like it does with regular powers?

11) You can simply spend 2 PP to ignore any material components of the spell, even costly ones. So you can toss out Forcecages, Animate Deads, Hindsights etc. free of charge, right? Can you also use it to ignore very specific components, like the Heroics spell (A piece of the armor of a level 15 fighter) or Identify (a potion of fox's cunning) or Ice Ship (a small, detailed glass model of a ship)?

12) For arcane spells on multiple class lists (like Legend Lore), can you learn any version? For example, could I learn the Bard version of Legend Lore instead of the Wizard version, making my checks easier? Or could I even learn a 9th-level spell that isn't 9th-level on another class list, for example Hindsight (SpC, Bard 6, Sor/Wiz 9)?

13) The verbal and somatic components remain unchanged - do you incur ASF if you're "casting" them, or not? RAW they are psionic powers, not spells, so no, but logically if the somatic components are unchanged then it would be yes. If so, is there any way to still or silence powers?

14) Finally, is there an Erudite Handbook around anywhere?

Any help the Playground could give me with these questions would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

Saintjebus
2009-12-16, 10:31 AM
I'm no expert on psionics by any means, but I'm pretty certain that the rule of thumb is that text trumps table. Also, it sounds kind of like sorceror progression. My gut says that it's your first interpretation.



*hides from people who know much more than me about everything*

jseah
2009-12-16, 10:40 AM
It's broken either way.

11 UPD at level 20 is stupidly small.

11 UPD per spell level at level 20 means you have more UPD than PP to manifest them. Which is also stupid.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 11:26 AM
I don't think it's "stupidly small" - A pure Wilder only ever knows 11 powers too after all, period. Erudite is in the same boat, but has the luxury of effectively reselecting its powers known every day by using them. Even better, it doesn't have to do this beforehand - An Erudite can wait until combat, or until a given challenge arises, before choosing anything, and incur no lost time for doing so. Plus, they have a psion's power points, not a Wilder's. They're more like... a Sorcerer that can rechoose his spells every morning.

I'm not denying a Psion is better - especially since they can rely on items to manifest any limited-use utility powers they might need, like Knock, without impacting their versatility - but the fact that Erudite is ahead of Wilder makes it at least playable.

Any answers to my other questions?

Flickerdart
2009-12-16, 11:29 AM
For 12: Yes, you can learn any version. This is what makes, I think Artificers, stupidly broken, because they can make wands and such of powerful spells that are lower-level for other classes. Spell-to-Power Erudite is obscenely powerful anyway.

jseah
2009-12-16, 11:47 AM
About converting Dweomer of Transferance:

It's a 4th level spell. It costs 7PP.
It works as stated.

I don't see how that is so difficult.
Point of note: powers are not spells, dweomer of transferance does not absorb powers.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 12:00 PM
Here are my own answers to your specific questions, fwiw:

[T]hey're kind of like a "psionic wizard."Yep. That's exactly how I would describe them.

1) Let me see if I have this straight: at 4th level, an Erudite has 4 UP/D according to the table. If my logic is correct, the under the first interpretation ("unique powers per level per day") that's 4 unique 2nd-level powers and 4 unique 1st-level powers. Under the second interpretation ("unique powers per day"), it's 4 unique powers from across all the power levels he has access to. Is this right?Those are the only two interpretations of which I am aware.

2) Which interpretation do most Erudite players use?I use the second one. Using the first one is no restriction at all: while hypothetically (because an Erudite may learn all the powers, more or less) the first interpretation would "restrict" them to only a fraction of the universe; but by any measure, that fraction would be larger than any psion (or any other psionic class) could manage. Therefore, why play any psionic but an erudite?

As a general rule of interpretation, if one interpretation is broken and the other is not, I use the non-broken interpretation (even in the face of "but it's RAW!" arguments).

3) How does Erudite interact with PrCs? Say I go Ectopic Adept, would my UP/D increase along with my Power Points, or would I be stuck with the same UP/D I had first?Because UP/D are the erudite's equivalent of new powers, I would advance them in any PrC that advances manifesting.

4) Does the restriction on "equal levels in a psionic class" shutting off your learning mechanic (the "Exception" under "Adding Powers") apply to classes that progress your manifesting but aren't explicitly psionic, like Loremaster or Uncanny Trickster?
By my read, Loremaster and Uncanny Trickster don't advance manifesting; they advance spell casting. However, if playing with a houserule where PrCs that advance spell casting also may advance manifesting, or if using PrCs that explicitly advance manifesting, realize that for some purposes, PrCs are not "classes." (For example, PrC levels never count for purposes of any multiclassing penalty.) This is another such instance: as long as you are using the PrC to advance erudite manifesting, it should count as erudite levels for purposes of shutting off the learning mechanic. On the other hand, if you used the PrC to advance manifesting in another psionic class, it would count as levels of that class, for purposes of the learning mechanic. (I hope that explanation was clear on its face; if not, I'll offer an example.)

5) Is there any way for them to learn 9th-level discipline powers without using the Variants? (Discussed further below)To my knowledge, no. I'm not familiar with epic rules, having no interest in playing them (I'm an E6 fan, myself), but hypothetically, if there is a way to qualify for "10th level powers," you would then be able to learn 9th level discipline powers. (Hooray for Genesis! And don't deny that's what you were thinking.:smallwink:)

6) Favored Discipline Erudite - can I learn any power at all from my discipline regardless of class? For example, if I chose Psychometabolism, could I find a Psywar and learn Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) from him?Que the Up a Level; Down a Level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) sketch: it's ambiguous. WotC has done us no favors by using the term "Discipline" to apply both to a particular category of powers (e.g., "Psychometabolism") and to a subset of Psions specializing in powers of that category (e.g., "Egoists"). Because the Mind's Eye variant specifically says you may learn discipline powers "no matter what class list they are on," I think the first definition was intended, so the answer to your question would be yes: you select a discipline like Psychometabolism, rather than like Egoist.

7) Would the FD Erudite be able to learn maximum-level Discipline Powers? For example, could I learn Time Regression from a Nomad if I chose Psychoportation?
Under the interpretation discussed above, yes. Any power within the Psychoportation discipline is now considered a "general psion/wilder" power for an FD Erudite (Psychoportation).

8) Mantled Erudite: Can you choose powers from the chosen mantle as your normal "level-up" powers, or are they restricted to being learned, say by picking the brain of an Ardent?
Again, the powers of the selected mantle are considered "general psion/wilder" powers, so you may learn them by any method you may use to learn such powers (so the answer is yes).

9) How on earth does this interact with Dweomer of Transference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/dweomerOfTransference.htm)? Can you both learn the spell AND get the PP to manifest it?
I get warm and fuzzy just thinking about CStP Erudites. :smallsmile:
However, CStP and DoT do not interact in the way you appear to be thinking: a CStP Erudite does not learn spells by having them cast upon him (which is what happens with DoT). Although it's not entirely clear, I would rule that he may learn spells from a scroll (equivalent to a power stone) or spell book (equivalent to the mind of a willing psionic), probably from the mind of a willing spontaneous arcane caster, too (same reasoning). DoT does not convert spells to powers; it converts spells to power points.

10) I get that you have to Augment burn spells as if they were powers to get full damage out of them, but what about save DC? Does it increase along with the augmentation also, like it does with regular powers?The rule does not say so. Here is the real issue, though: you get a better return using the equivalent psionic powers, for blasting, and much more versatility. If you're going with CStP, you want to use it for spells that don't have a just-as-good-or-better psionic equivalent. (In other words, this was a bad question.)

11) You can simply spend 2 PP to ignore any material components of the spell, even costly ones. So you can toss out Forcecages, Animate Deads, Hindsights etc. free of charge, right? Can you also use it to ignore very specific components, like the Heroics spell (A piece of the armor of a level 15 fighter) or Identify (a potion of fox's cunning) or Ice Ship (a small, detailed glass model of a ship)? Yes, that's the RAW. Inexpensive components don't even cost you extra pp. (That's quite fair, when you consider that they also don't cost the spellcaster anything: all these components are already "there" in the spellpouch.)

12) For arcane spells on multiple class lists (like Legend Lore), can you learn any version? For example, could I learn the Bard version of Legend Lore instead of the Wizard version, making my checks easier? Or could I even learn a 9th-level spell that isn't 9th-level on another class list, for example Hindsight (SpC, Bard 6, Sor/Wiz 9)?
That is what I would do; just as I would do the same with learning psionic powers (although for those where the better deal is not on the "general" list, that will require Expanded Knowledge).

13) The verbal and somatic components remain unchanged - do you incur ASF if you're "casting" them, or not? RAW they are psionic powers, not spells, so no, but logically if the somatic components are unchanged then it would be yes. If so, is there any way to still or silence powers?
Considering the broken-goodness of CStP, I would apply ASF; likewise, a converted spell would be subject to silencing and stilling -- otherwise, there is no meaning to the statement that "verbal and somatic components remain unchanged." Any CStP that complains about this gets a boot to the head, and all the other CStPs tell him to shut up before the GM takes a closer look at things.

14) Finally, is there an Erudite Handbook around anywhere?
Not that I know of, but there's no reason you could not adapt the one for psions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=5a303680dd53af46d14c7080b11832 63&topic=1036.0).

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-16, 12:13 PM
About converting Dweomer of Transferance:

It's a 4th level spell. It costs 7PP.
It works as stated.

I don't see how that is so difficult.
Point of note: powers are not spells, dweomer of transferance does not absorb powers.

Ahem:


The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.


General rule. But Dweomer of Tranference specifies that it doesn't interfere with Psionic powers, only spells (so it would be an exception).


Those are the only two interpretations of which I am aware.

There are 4 total interpretations:

1: 11/day, flat. Probably intended, but ends up requiring Spell-to-Power to be worth more than playing a Wilder who learns PsiReform. Somewhat broken, but manageable until StP gets involved (then hell breaks loose).

2: 11/power level/day. The second method. Only works with 3.0 Psionics or 3rd party sources, as there's no way they can use that many UP/D without Spell to Power. Broken.

3: 11/Class level/day. Game breaker-ific. No possible way to fill that many slots with just the XPH and CP. StP allows you to effectively learn every single spell in the game and simply manifest whatever you want every 24 hours without needing to prepare.

4: 11/Level gained. Ignores the Daily part of Unique Powers/Day, thus squarely into House Rule territory, but a plausible interpretation. Ends up being weaker than the Wilder except during Level-Ups, when they can change their entire list of Powers for free. Spell to Power still breaks this.



In the end, the Erudite is unplayable as written because the DM is forced to pick one interpretation and forgo the others, thus meaning he is House Ruling the ability. The class is broken because of Spell to Power and the large access to any powers in the game with little to no effort required to protect them.



14) Finally, is there an Erudite Handbook around anywhere?

I started one, but gave up when I realized you just needed to cross-reference the Batman, GOD, and Psion Handbooks.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 12:14 PM
About converting Dweomer of Transferance:

It's a 4th level spell. It costs 7PP.
It works as stated.

I don't see how that is so difficult.
Point of note: powers are not spells, dweomer of transferance does not absorb powers.

No, I didn't mean simply acquiring the spell itself (though that's not a bad idea either.) I mean having someone cast the spell on you, and then making your spellcraft check to learn a spell from an enemy while they're trying to impede you with spells. Is that possible?

Dweomer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/dweomerOfTransference.htm) says: "Any spells cast at the subject don’t have their usual effect, instead converting themselves harmlessly into psionic energy that the subject can use as energy for psionic powers." It does not specify that the source of the spells has to be an ally, thus you can absorb harmful spells from enemies.

It mentions the two checks, but does not specify the conditions under which the checks are made. You're allowed a Spellcraft check when you see an enemy casting a spell. With the Dweomer, you're basically immune to magic. So with StP + Dweomer, you:

1) make your Spellcraft check to identify the spell,
2) absorb any harmful effects from the spell
3) followed by a Psicraft check to attempt to learn it.

That's my reasoning, anyway. I could be wrong.

But even if I am wrong, it's still basically an unbreakable spell mantle even if you can't LEARN the spells that way. So if your Erudite learns it, he almost never has to worry about Vancian casters again. RAW, it blocks everything with a target, even Disjunction. It's like psionic Wings of Cover. (Which, btw, they can ALSO learn.)

Stegyre, thanks so much for your post, which I promise to read in depth after I get some lunch in my gullet! :smallbiggrin:

jseah
2009-12-16, 12:18 PM
I disagree.

Dweomer of Transference requires the spells to be casted AT the target.

Even under a lenient reading, this will only affected target: creature spells. Areas will whack you as per normal.

Even when the target of the spell is you (eg. Phantasmal Killer), it is debatable whether casted at the target is the same as targeting the spell.
The wording used is different after all.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 12:30 PM
I'm playing an erudite/wizard/cerebremancer (no StP) right now, and the stunted progression on both sides definitely is hurting how powerful I am. For unique spells/day, I get a number equal to the highest level power I can cast for each power. So at level 1, I get 1 first level power/day. At level 5 I get 3 3rd level powers, 3 2nd level powers, and 3 first level powers. At level 20 I'll have access to 81 powers per day; 9 of each power level.

It's a low psionics campaign world, so so far, I don't have that many more powers/day than a psion. In fact, I only have a few more first level powers; I haven't had the chance to pick up new powers from anywhere else.

I'm planning on going into mindmage, which will set me back another 2 caster levels on both sides, so I won't get access to 9th level powers until level 20. We are, however, expected to hit the epic levels, so I figured getting the heighten power ability worth it, which will let me learn 9th level powers out of disciplines. Stacking my manifester & caster level will also give me a hilarious number of power points, and through augmentation, I can still put out what will be effectively 9th level powers.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 01:07 PM
I disagree.

Dweomer of Transference requires the spells to be casted AT the target.

Even under a lenient reading, this will only affected target: creature spells. Areas will whack you as per normal.

"You can cast any spell you like at the subject, even area spells, effect spells, and spells for whom the subject would ordinarily not be a legitimate target."

Seems to indicate that area spells are affected as well.


Even when the target of the spell is you (eg. Phantasmal Killer), it is debatable whether casted at the target is the same as targeting the spell.
The wording used is different after all.

Dweomer specifically requires the subject to be targeted, not the Dweomer itself. So no "targeting the spell" is necessary.



Steg, if I don't quote something, assume I agree with it and have nothing to add.


As a general rule of interpretation, if one interpretation is broken and the other is not, I use the non-broken interpretation (even in the face of "but it's RAW!" arguments).

Oh believe me, so do I. I was just making sure I had it straight. (Evidently I didn't, judging by Sinfire's post.)


Because UP/D are the erudite's equivalent of new powers, I would advance them in any PrC that advances manifesting.

I would too, but it would be nice if I could find some kind of support for that besides "it's fair." Especially since the class is so borked as written that a DM might leap at any chance to nerf it.

It's the same way that an Ardent doesn't pick up new mantles in a PrC. They SHOULD, but the text conveniently neglects it.


By my read, Loremaster and Uncanny Trickster don't advance manifesting; they advance spell casting. However, if playing with a houserule where PrCs that advance spell casting also may advance manifesting, or if using PrCs that explicitly advance manifesting, realize that for some purposes, PrCs are not "classes." (For example, PrC levels never count for purposes of any multiclassing penalty.) This is another such instance: as long as you are using the PrC to advance erudite manifesting, it should count as erudite levels for purposes of shutting off the learning mechanic. On the other hand, if you used the PrC to advance manifesting in another psionic class, it would count as levels of that class, for purposes of the learning mechanic. (I hope that explanation was clear on its face; if not, I'll offer an example.)

I understood your explanation, but it's not a houserule - Uncanny Trickster advances any and all class features. It says "including spellcasting" but does not exclude anything, by which I take it to mean that manifesting is not excluded. But it is not an inherently psionic class, hence my confusion.

Loremaster is a bit more gray - RAW, it does not advance manifesting at all, because the text specifies "spells" while the table does not. But it can still be argued, and is quite flavorful for an Erudite.

Legacy Champion might also advance manifesting, and run into the same issue.


To my knowledge, no. I'm not familiar with epic rules, having no interest in playing them (I'm an E6 fan, myself), but hypothetically, if there is a way to qualify for "10th level powers," you would then be able to learn 9th level discipline powers. (Hooray for Genesis! And don't deny that's what you were thinking.:smallwink:)

Well if Genesis was all I wanted, I'd just be a Favored Discipline Erudite :smalltongue: I just naturally like pushing at boundaries that say "you can't go higher than this" in a full casting class. Rules were made to be broken, after all :smallbiggrin:


I get warm and fuzzy just thinking about CStP Erudites. :smallsmile:
However, CStP and DoT do not interact in the way you appear to be thinking: a CStP Erudite does not learn spells by having them cast upon him (which is what happens with DoT). Although it's not entirely clear, I would rule that he may learn spells from a scroll (equivalent to a power stone) or spell book (equivalent to the mind of a willing psionic), probably from the mind of a willing spontaneous arcane caster, too (same reasoning). DoT does not convert spells to powers; it converts spells to power points.

I know that DoT doesn't "translate" spells on its own. That wasn't what I said. I said that the spellcraft check you get when a spell is cast (as a CStP) would do that. All the Dweomer would do would be to give you ammunition. That was what I was trying to clarify there.

I agree, that would be a silly interpretation - it's far more likely that you have to touch the mind of the arcanist, they have to be willing, 8 hours of meditation et cetera, but the ability only says the two checks follow the normal learning rules, not that the entire existing learning system applies to conversion.


The rule does not say so. Here is the real issue, though: you get a better return using the equivalent psionic powers, for blasting, and much more versatility. If you're going with CStP, you want to use it for spells that don't have a just-as-good-or-better psionic equivalent. (In other words, this was a bad question.)

I agree in principle; in practice, however, there are some blasting spells that there is no power equivalent for, that might be worth manifesting nonetheless. For example, Manyjaws, or Prismatic Spray. Boosting the DC on those through augmentation might be worthwhile.


Not that I know of, but there's no reason you could not adapt the one for psions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=5a303680dd53af46d14c7080b11832 63&topic=1036.0).

Thanks, I'll take a look.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 01:12 PM
I disagree.

Dweomer of Transference requires the spells to be casted AT the target.

Even under a lenient reading, this will only affected target: creature spells. Areas will whack you as per normal.

Even when the target of the spell is you (eg. Phantasmal Killer), it is debatable whether casted at the target is the same as targeting the spell.
The wording used is different after all.
I was going to agree, but then I reread the spell description: it specifically includes area spells, etc. Arguably, Optimystik's interpretation would fly, but not definitively.

If I were GMing this, I'd say that certainly all "friendly" spells - of whatever type - would be absorbed by the dweomer. Likewise, all "unfriendly" "target" spells targeted on the erudite. Area spells are the problematic issue I see, and I'd be inclined to say that the erudite could not absorb these (thereby providing a spell shield to the entire party): As Jseah says, they are not being cast "at" the erudite, as such "friendly" spells are.

YMMV. I think in general this area lends itself to houseruling. We can debate which houserules are best (and I certainly have my opinions), but that depends so much on what sort of campaign you are trying to run and how the PCs are conceived. My vision doesn't fit every campaign, and neither would my houserules.

jseah
2009-12-16, 01:20 PM
The problem being that even area spells have to be cast at the target.

Without casting the area spell at the target, the spell is not absorbed.

Area spells are cast at a point.

Point != target creature
even if they share the same square, targeting a point is not the same as targeting a creature.

The special targeting line allows you to target a creature with an area spell instead of a point, which is normally illegal.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 01:26 PM
Does Dweomer of Transferance show up in any books, or just the SRD?

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 01:26 PM
The problem being that even area spells have to be cast at the target.

Without casting the area spell at the target, the spell is not absorbed.

Area spells are cast at a point.
I'm pretty sure that is exactly the point I was agreeing with. :smallsmile:

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-16, 01:39 PM
Does Dweomer of Transferance show up in any books, or just the SRD?

Back of the XPH.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 01:41 PM
Back of the XPH.

Thank you.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 01:45 PM
I'm trying to figure out how that spell will break a StP erudite.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 01:56 PM
The problem being that even area spells have to be cast at the target.

Without casting the area spell at the target, the spell is not absorbed.

Area spells are cast at a point.

Point != target creature
even if they share the same square, targeting a point is not the same as targeting a creature.

The special targeting line allows you to target a creature with an area spell instead of a point, which is normally illegal.

Ah okay, I see your argument now (though hasten to add that there are even some area spells that can be targeted at creatures. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm)) But in any case, my original observation on DoT only related to specifically creature-targeted spells. So I have no issue with your ruling now that I understand it.

I guess if I want my StP Erudite to get immunity to spell effects, Wings of Cover might be a better investment. :smallsmile:

@ Sinfire: It sounds like interpretation 1 is the one I'd go with. But what's wrong with it being "a Wilder with PsyReform?" I consider that a great buff to the Wilder, which is quite a weak class to begin with. How does that make it broken? (Without StP obviously.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-16, 02:03 PM
@ Sinfire: It sounds like interpretation 1 is the one I'd go with. But what's wrong with it being "a Wilder with PsyReform?" I consider that a great buff to the Wilder, which is quite a weak class to begin with. How does that make it broken? (Without StP obviously.)

You're a Wilder who lost Wild Surge, Medium BAB, and a couple of other abilities for 6 bonus feats and a free blanket PsyReform every 24 hours. I said it ends up being little more, but that little still makes a difference. The fact that you don't have to spend 100xp and 9pp/power you wish to change, the fact that it doesn't take 10 minutes/power, and the fact that you have the ability to pick Unique Powers/day spontaneously without needing to stop and spend 15 minutes doing so is what makes it bad. If you're limited to the XPH+CP only, you are honestly better off being a Wilder with PsyReform.

Spell to Power changes this entirely.


I'm trying to figure out how that spell will break a StP erudite.

It gives you a recharge system if you happen to know a friendly Warlock or have a few wands available.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 02:06 PM
It gives you a recharge system if you happen to know a friendly Warlock or have a few wands available.

I see. It's not so much that you get the spell as a manifester, but that the spell exists.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-16, 02:10 PM
I see. It's not so much that you get the spell as a manifester, but that the spell exists.

Right. Some things should not be.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 02:14 PM
It gives you a recharge system if you happen to know a friendly Warlock . . . .
!!I had completely forgotten warlocks!!
Suddenly, my E6 plan for an CStP Erudite using Harmonic Chorus to power-up an Artificer for higher-level item crafting became much, much easier.

(Now, I've got to put on the GM hat and determine whether this is so broken I must ban something. Oh, the endless balancing act! One thing I like about E6 is that "broken" need not be unbearable, and I take delight in looking for ways to break it, but I also have to look out for mechanics that go too far.)

Samb
2009-12-16, 02:37 PM
I don't think it's "stupidly small" - A pure Wilder only ever knows 11 powers too after all, period. Erudite is in the same boat, but has the luxury of effectively reselecting its powers known every day by using them. Even better, it doesn't have to do this beforehand - An Erudite can wait until combat, or until a given challenge arises, before choosing anything, and incur no lost time for doing so. Plus, they have a psion's power points, not a Wilder's. They're more like... a Sorcerer that can rechoose his spells every morning.
a few thing wrong with this statement. Erudites are more like wizards, psions are more comparable to sorcerers. Wilders have the same amount of PP as a psion not less. I don't have the books in front of me but I'm pretty sure you pick the unique powers beforehand not in the middle of combat.



I'm not denying a Psion is better - especially since they can rely on items to manifest any limited-use utility powers they might need, like Knock, without impacting their versatility - but the fact that Erudite is ahead of Wilder makes it at least playable.
unless the Erudite is power to spell then I personally think a wilder is far better. Both have the same number of powers, same amount power points, but a wilder has better BAB (even without surging euphoria), and more ML.

If web enhancements are allowed then a wilder (or even better a psion) with a tattoo of psyreform can allow a wilder to get a new set of powers just like a erudite without using any XP at all. No matter how I look at it wilder comes out on top compared to a non-spell to power erudite.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 02:54 PM
You're a Wilder who lost Wild Surge, Medium BAB, and a couple of other abilities for 6 bonus feats and a free blanket PsyReform every 24 hours. I said it ends up being little more, but that little still makes a difference. The fact that you don't have to spend 100xp and 9pp/power you wish to change, the fact that it doesn't take 10 minutes/power, and the fact that you have the ability to pick Unique Powers/day spontaneously without needing to stop and spend 15 minutes doing so is what makes it bad. If you're limited to the XPH+CP only, you are honestly better off being a Wilder with PsyReform.

I disagree. Even with "psi-core" I think an Erudite is preferable to a Wilder. I'll admit I hadn't considered getting a PsyReform tattoo, but even then the Erudite gets things that the Wilder does not.

Yes, you lose BAB and Wild Surge, but I think you're understating the gains. Unlike a Wilder (and even a Psion), you have access to every discipline power below 9th. That's huge. An erudite can do ridiculous things like manifest Fission followed by Schism.

In a campaign where dorjes, power stones etc. are harder to come by, the Erudite also shines. He can add the powers to his list, keeping them stashed away until he needs them, and not have to worry that consuming them will deny him their use later on when they could come in handy.

Finally, they also get a psicrystal, and all the tricks that that allows you to do (I'm sure Lycan has a few.) By default, Wilders don't.

I agree that StP is broken, but the other two variants seem to be an acceptable level of power for the cost of a feat.


It gives you a recharge system if you happen to know a friendly Warlock or have a few wands available.

Wow, I hadn't considered that trick. Talk about Metamind!

Though compared to the other tricks a StP Erudite can pull off, this one is probably a drop in the bucket.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 03:08 PM
I'm quite certain that, by RAW, the psy reform tattoo will not work: all decisions about a power's effect must be made at the time the tattoo is created. Thus, you could have a tattoo that created a particular power set (and/or feat set or whatever), but not one to allow you to make up a new set "on the fly." "The wearer doesn’t get to make any decisions about the tattoo’s effect—the manifester who scribed it has already done so." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm)

Also, I'm reasonably confident that Erudites make their UP choices on the fly: as long as he (or she) has not used up all UP for the day, he may manifest any available new power (which then becomes another UP for the day). EDIT: Let me qualify this statement, having looked at the description in CPsi: it doesn't say. That being said, there is no basis for a requirement that they must decide their UP in advance. That's a spell mechanic for prepared casters that is not replicated in any psionic class. While it could be, and Erudites, as psionic-wizards, would be candidates, the basis for doing so requires something more than no supporting text whatsoever.

Samb
2009-12-16, 03:09 PM
I disagree. Even with "psi-core" I think an Erudite is preferable to a Wilder. I'll admit I hadn't considered getting a PsyReform tattoo, but even then the Erudite gets things that the Wilder does not. Like what?



Yes, you lose BAB and Wild Surge, but I think you're understating the gains. Unlike a Wilder (and even a Psion), you have access to every discipline power below 9th. That's huge. An erudite can do ridiculous things like manifest Fission followed by Schism.
fission and schism and all the cool disipline powers can easily be gotten with EK. Unless it is a 9th power (and non telepath) all the powers an erudite can get is easily gained by a wilder, especially if that wilder is the educated variant which has a bunch of free EKs to throw around. Also, schish won't work with fission; it is expressily stated in the power.


In a campaign where dorjes, power stones etc. are harder to come by, the Erudite also shines. He can add the powers to his list, keeping them stashed away until he needs them, and not have to worry that consuming them will deny him their use later on when they could come in handy. Again a tattoo of psyreform will net the powers for a wilder (or any psionic PC) without even needing to add them onto a repertoire. The fact that a erudite even needs a repertoire while other classes only need a EK is a testament to how they suck.



Finally, they also get a psicrystal, and all the tricks that that allows you to do (I'm sure Lycan has a few.) By default, Wilders don't.

I agree that StP is broken, but the other two variants seem to be an acceptable level of power for the cost of a feat.
Anyone with a PP pool can get a psicrystal...... Erutdites get it for free but a wilder, or any other psionic class/race can just burn a feat for it.



Wow, I hadn't considered that trick. Talk about Metamind!

Though compared to the other tricks a StP Erudite can pull off, this one is probably a drop in the bucket.[/QUOTE]

Samb
2009-12-16, 03:12 PM
I'm quite certain that, by RAW, the psy reform tattoo will not work: <b>all</b> decisions about a power's effect must be made at the time the tattoo is created. Thus, you could have a tattoo that created a particular power set (and/or feat set or whatever), but not one to allow you to make up a new set "on the fly." "The wearer doesn’t get to make any decisions about the tattoo’s effect—the manifester who scribed it has already done so." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm)

Also, I'm reasonably confident that Erudites make their UP choices on the fly: as long as he (or she) has not used up all UP for the day, he may manifest any available new power (which then becomes another UP for the day).
Even by your defintion, a wilder can still have up to 5 "sets" of powers to choose from, more if he got a tattoo container (forgot what they are called).

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 03:23 PM
Even by your defintion, a wilder can still have up to 5 "sets" of powers to choose from, more if he got a tattoo container (forgot what they are called).
Yes, she can, at the cost of the tattoos, just as anyone can have a Rogue's Evasion for the cost of the ring, and just as other psionics may have the Wilder's Wild Surge ability (or a good facsimile) with the cost of Overchannel + Talented or a dip into Anarchic Initiate. It all depends on how you'd prefer to put your character together, and what sort of risks you want them to be vulnerable to. (A Ring of Evasion won't work in an AMF, but the Rogue's ex ability will; tattoos may be dispelled, disjoined, overloaded, whatever, but you probably have to Mind Rape an Erudite to remove known powers, etc.)

If you prefer Wilders, for whatever reason, play Wilders. I'd much rather have the inherent flexibility of the Erudite.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 03:28 PM
I'm quite certain that, by RAW, the psy reform tattoo will not work: <b>all</b> decisions about a power's effect must be made at the time the tattoo is created. Thus, you could have a tattoo that created a particular power set (and/or feat set or whatever), but not one to allow you to make up a new set "on the fly." "The wearer doesn’t get to make any decisions about the tattoo’s effect—the manifester who scribed it has already done so." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm)

Excellent point, thank you. So this is another point for Erudites vs. Wilders.


Also, I'm reasonably confident that Erudites make their UP choices on the fly: as long as he (or she) has not used up all UP for the day, he may manifest any available new power (which then becomes another UP for the day).

I'm reminded of this 8-Bit Theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/11/02/episode-092-i-gotta-go-with-black-mage-on-this-one/) :smallbiggrin: I could definitely see myself playing an Erudite who's afraid to manifest any powers so he can stay "versatile!"


fission and schism and all the cool disipline powers can easily be gotten with EK. Unless it is a 9th power (and non telepath) all the powers an erudite can get is easily gained by a wilder, especially if that wilder is the educated variant which has a bunch of free EKs to throw around.

EK gives you one power per feat. I'd rather be able to learn almost every discipline power and keep my feats. It seems obvious to me which is better - have the cake AND eat it.


Also, schish won't work with fission; it is expressily stated in the power.

Where does it say that?


Again a tattoo of psyreform will net the powers for a wilder (or any psionic PC) without even needing to add them onto a repertoire. The fact that a erudite even needs a repertoire while other classes only need a EK is a testament to how they suck.

You forget that Erudites can take EK too, and indeed have the bonus feats to do so efficiently. One class has to burn feats to get discipline powers, the other doesn't, and the one that doesn't sucks?

Never mind the FD Erudite, who can pick up Lurk, Psywar and even Ardent powers of his chosen Discipline without problems.


Anyone with a PP pool can get a psicrystal...... Erutdites get it for free but a wilder, or any other psionic class/race can just burn a feat for it.

Here again you are burning a feat on something the Erudite gets for free. And Wilders don't even get bonus feats to burn.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 03:40 PM
An Erudite can take EK, craft a know stone with the power in it, psychic reform another EK, put that it in a stone, etc, then learn as many powers as he pleases.

Samb
2009-12-16, 03:49 PM
Excellent point, thank you. So this is another point for Erudites vs. Wilders. Not really, as any psionic PC can do this but a psyreform tattoo would be wasted on a erudite (for the most part).


EK gives you one power per feat. I'd rather be able to learn almost every discipline power and keep my feats. It seems obvious to me which is better - have the cake AND eat it.
It isn't clear, because like I said an educated wilder has 4 EK right off the bat, which mostly even out the Erudite's feats.



Where does it say that?
Hmm I may have got this confused with temporal acceleration. But I doesn't really make Erudite better since Wilders can do the same combo at HIGHER ML.



You forget that Erudites can take EK too, and indeed have the bonus feats to do so efficiently. One class has to burn feats to get discipline powers, the other doesn't, and the one that doesn't sucks? Why would a erudite ever need to take EK when it can pick any power to begin with anyway? If anything a Erudite spending a feat on EK is a waste.



Never mind the FD Erudite, who can pick up Lurk, Psywar and even Ardent powers of his chosen Discipline without problems.
Again a wilder (or any other psionic PC) can duplicate that with a psyreform tattoo to a certain degree. Even a lurk, psywar, ardent or psion. The main draw of erudite is completely negated with a few tattoos. That is a big deal in my opinion.



Here again you are burning a feat on something the Erudite gets for free. And Wilders don't even get bonus feats to burn.
Well an eduated wilder does have the feats to burn..... not even a psion gets a free psicrystal so I don't see your point. I mean a free psicrystal is a great reason to dip into erudite (as I often do) but to make it into it's whole selling point? Sorry but I'm not buying it.

Samb
2009-12-16, 03:53 PM
An Erudite can take EK, craft a know stone with the power in it, psychic reform another EK, put that it in a stone, etc, then learn as many powers as he pleases.

An erudite can learn ALL the powers already. Your method will only increase his repertoire, not his total unique powers per day. EK should increase the number of powers per day (I think, but it's no longer unique) but that is all. For other classes EK was the only way to get disipline exclusive powers, something an Erudite didn't need to worry about to begin with, hence a waste of a feat.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 03:53 PM
Why would a erudite ever need to take EK when it can pick any power to begin with anyway? If anything a Erudite spending a feat on EK is a waste.
No, they can't. Erudites may only learn spells from the general psion/wilder list or from the discipline lists (using the "Egoist" type of discipline definition). If a power only appears in a mantle or on the psywar list, or if the Erudite wanted to use the power as, say, a psywar power (because it has a lower psywar PL than it does on the general list), he will have to EK it.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 03:59 PM
Not really, as any psionic PC can do this but a psyreform tattoo would be wasted on a erudite (for the most part).
It isn't clear, because like I said an educated wilder has 4 EK right off the bat, which mostly even out the Erudite's feats.

As long as we're using variants, why no StP Erudite?


Hmm I may have got this confused with temporal acceleration. But I doesn't really make Erudite better since Wilders can do the same combo at HIGHER ML.

Cool. But what else are they going to do? Spam energy bolts? When an Erudite Fissions, he doubles the number of unique powers/day he can use.

Besides, a short dip in Anarchic Initiate, or getting Overchannel, gets you the same thing. And thanks to being able to get a ton of powers & some bonus feats, you can use Vigor & Shared Pain with your psicrystal to mitigate a ton of damage. A Wilder has none of these luxuries.


Why would a erudite ever need to take EK when it can pick any power to begin with anyway? If anything a Erudite spending a feat on EK is a waste.

He uses it to get powers out of disciplines he doesn't have access to.


Again a wilder (or any other psionic PC) can duplicate that with a psyreform tattoo to a certain degree. Even a lurk, psywar, ardent or psion. The main draw of erudite is completely negated with a few tattoos. That is a big deal in my opinion.

Is there something that lets you put psychic reform (a level 4 power) into a psychic tattoo (only 3rd level powers are eligible)?


Well an eduated wilder does have the feats to burn..... not even a psion gets a free psicrystal so I don't see your point. I mean a free psicrystal is a great reason to dip into erudite (as I often do) but to make it into it's whole selling point? Sorry but I'm not buying it.

Psicrystals are almost mandatory when playing a psion, since they help you win the action economy. Now you get as many bonus feats as a psion (which you don't have to waste on EK), plus a psicrystal, that you would already have spent a feat on as a psion. A Wilder, otoh, gets none of those perks.


An erudite can learn ALL the powers already. Your method will only increase his repertoire, not his total unique powers per day. EK should increase the number of powers per day (I think, but it's no longer unique) but that is all. For other classes EK was the only way to get disipline exclusive powers, something an Erudite didn't need to worry about to begin with, hence a waste of a feat.

Actually, an Erudite can only gain powers off the generic list when he levels; he has to find a power stone or another manifester to learn discipline powers. Besides, with Psychic Reformation, you don't have to worry about wasting feats.

Samb
2009-12-16, 03:59 PM
No, they can't. Erudites may only learn spells from the general psion/wilder list or from the discipline lists (using the "Egoist" type of discipline definition). If a power only appears in a mantle or on the psywar list, or if the Erudite wanted to use the power as, say, a psywar power (because it has a lower psywar PL than it does on the general list), he will have to EK it.

REALLY!!!?
That makes Erudites..... suck even more, but then EK isn't a waste...... meh

So EK gives a erudite what exactly? A power they normally don't get to use, but does that increase their unique powers per day? Or do they have the same amount UPs but one "permenant" power per EK picked? Honestly, Erudites were confusing enough, this restriction to psion/wilder only is an unnessary restriction.

Samb
2009-12-16, 04:08 PM
As long as we're using variants, why no StP Erudite?
LOL nothing stands in the might of StP erudite!!!! Just non-StP erudites and their variants.



Cool. But what else are they going to do? Spam energy bolts? When an Erudite Fissions, he doubles the number of unique powers/day he can use.
Hey that is neat, I never thought of that, but a wilder could just use that tattoo that we've been talking about.......[dead horse]


Besides, a short dip in Anarchic Initiate, or getting Overchannel, gets you the same thing. And thanks to being able to get a ton of powers & some bonus feats, you can use Vigor & Shared Pain with your psicrystal to mitigate a ton of damage. A Wilder has none of these luxuries.

Overchannel is garbage compared to wild surge. But you are right, Anarchic Initate is a great way to get wild surge, and should be the main way to get wild surge if you don't see the need for med BAB, surging euphoria and the like. wilder1/psion x/ AI x is one of the best pure manifesters around.

Where does it say a wilder can't do the PSV combo??? Nowhere, hence I will ignore that part of your argument.



He uses it to get powers out of disciplines he doesn't have access to.
And here I thought he automatically got access to all of them. So you are telling me they sucksed even more than I had initally thought.



Is there something that lets you put psychic reform (a level 4 power) into a psychic tattoo (only 3rd level powers are eligible)?
It is in the web enhancement on the WotC website: Mind's eye. The feat called scribe greater psionic tattoo. It lets you make a tattoo permenant and scribe ones over level 3.

[quote]

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 04:09 PM
Not really, as any psionic PC can do this but a psyreform tattoo would be wasted on a erudite (for the most part).
...
Why would a erudite ever need to take EK when it can pick any power to begin with anyway? If anything a Erudite spending a feat on EK is a waste.

1) They don't, that was my whole point. Their feats are free for other uses.
2) You're wrong on both counts - read Myrmex's post.


It isn't clear, because like I said an educated wilder has 4 EK right off the bat, which mostly even out the Erudite's feats.

First off, you're comparing an alternate Wilder to the base Erudite. If you're allowing ACFs, the Erudite gets StP and blows any Wilder out of the water. I was explicitly comparing the base classes to each other from the start.

Secondly, you're being inconsistent. First you say the Erudite doesn't need EK, now you're saying the Wilder's EK cancels out the Erudites bonus feats. But if the Erudite is effectively gaining EK for free, his feats can be used for other things. The Educated Wilder only gets EK (which he needs) and no bonus feats. Erudite therefore wins.


Hmm I may have got this confused with temporal acceleration. But I doesn't really make Erudite better since Wilders can do the same combo at HIGHER ML.

That's no advantage. An Erudite can get the same ML boost, simply by taking Anarchic Initiate or using Overchannel, all without losing manifester levels. He even qualifies more easily than a Wilder does.


Again a wilder (or any other psionic PC) can duplicate that with a psyreform tattoo to a certain degree. Even a lurk, psywar, ardent or psion. The main draw of erudite is completely negated with a few tattoos. That is a big deal in my opinion.

Again, read Myrmex's post - the Erudite gets far more mileage out of the tattoos than a Wilder does, by being able to permanently learn all the powers by retraining EK and making stones.


Well an eduated wilder does have the feats to burn..... not even a psion gets a free psicrystal so I don't see your point. I mean a free psicrystal is a great reason to dip into erudite (as I often do) but to make it into it's whole selling point? Sorry but I'm not buying it.

An Educated Wilder only gets EK. An Erudite can duplicate its benefit without even using feats, AND has his bonus feats free for other things. You keep glossing this over, but it is a significant advantage.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 04:14 PM
REALLY!!!?
That makes Erudites..... suck even more, but then EK isn't a waste...... meh
As noted before: no one requires you to play an erudite


So EK gives a erudite what exactly? A power they normally don't get to use, but does that increase their unique powers per day? Or do they have the same amount UPs but one "permenant" power per EK picked?
EK gives Erudites the same thing that it gives anyone: knowledge of one power, which they may manifest under whatever rules apply to their class. In the Erudite's case, it does not increase UP, nor does it give them a power that operates outside of UP.

When an Erudite Fissions, he doubles the number of unique powers/day he can use.
The power description is pretty specific that such abilities are actually equally split between the two entities, so no, he doesn't.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 04:17 PM
Overchannel is garbage compared to wild surge. But you are right, Anarchic Initate is a great way to get wild surge, and should be the main way to get wild surge if you don't see the need for med BAB, surging euphoria and the like. wilder1/psion x/ AI x is one of the best pure manifesters around.

Ehh, I'd rather take damage than lose my turn.


Where does it say a wilder can't do the PSV combo??? Nowhere, hence I will ignore that part of your argument.

Nowhere; but with 11 powers known, do you really want to have two of them Share Pain & Vigor?


It is in the web enhancement on the WotC website: Mind's eye. The feat called scribe greater psionic tattoo. It lets you make a tattoo permenant and scribe ones over level 3.

I see. Those things are expensive; base 1,400 gp a piece, +250gp for every 2 levels (one power) you want to go back. To reset all your powers would cost, at level 20, would cost 3900gp. Definitely not something you want to be doing a lot.


The power description is pretty specific that such abilities are actually equally split between the two entities, so no, he doesn't.

Ah, you're right. I read that wrong.

Samb
2009-12-16, 04:38 PM
1) They don't, that was my whole point. Their feats are free for other uses.
2) You're wrong on both counts - read Myrmex's post.
Well, I was under the impression that erudites could pick everything. As it turns out they were worse than I thought.



First off, you're comparing an alternate Wilder to the base Erudite. If you're allowing ACFs, the Erudite gets StP and blows any Wilder out of the water. I was explicitly comparing the base classes to each other from the start.
No, I just compare wilder (any variant) to a non-StP erudite. A StP erudite is better than most classes in the whole game. I am not contending that. Even straight up I think a wilder is better even if he has to spend XP to manifest psyreform.



Secondly, you're being inconsistent. First you say the Erudite doesn't need EK, now you're saying the Wilder's EK cancels out the Erudites bonus feats. But if the Erudite is effectively gaining EK for free, his feats can be used for other things. The Educated Wilder only gets EK (which he needs) and no bonus feats. Erudite therefore wins. I did mess up because I thought Erudites were better than that. As it turns out they suck even when it comes to access of powers. Which really make them even worse since now the bonus feats will be used the same as an educated wilder's EK. Hence erudite bonus feats= educated wilder's EK.




That's no advantage. An Erudite can get the same ML boost, simply by taking Anarchic Initiate or using Overchannel, all without losing manifester levels. He even qualifies more easily than a Wilder does.
Overchannel? I really don't want to bring in the math, but in the short run and long run wild surge beats overchannel in terms of ML boost, progression and even PP (and that's with ennervation factored). AI is the best way for getting this feature and you should go for it. A wilder going into AI is silly as it acutally slows his wild surge progression and he loses surging euphoria, but a like I said, a psion with wild surge...... is really good. Same with a erudite, but don't think you will be able to wild surge as high or as fast as a wilder. Still a strong build and one I would recommend.




Again, read Myrmex's post - the Erudite gets far more mileage out of the tattoos than a Wilder does, by being able to permanently learn all the powers by retraining EK and making stones.
That only adds powers to your reperoire right? Like adding to a spellbook, what you want is an increase in powers per day. Again I messed up and thought erudites had access to all powers so please excuse me here, I didn't know they were under the same restrictions as a wilder. Honestly, I gave the benefit of the doubt.



An Educated Wilder only gets EK. An Erudite can duplicate its benefit without even using feats, AND has his bonus feats free for other things. You keep glossing this over, but it is a significant advantage.
As it turns out an erudite DOES need the EK as well, so they are not as free as you once thought are they?

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 04:41 PM
As it turns out an erudite DOES need the EK as well, so they are not as free as you once thought are they?

Only transiently.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 05:01 PM
Only transiently.
Nope. Permanently. An Erudite may only add powers to his powers known if they are on a discipline list or the general list. Your trick of wanting to keep reforming EK to get other powers does not work, because EK is required for each non-general/non-discipline power you want to know.

You could use PR on EK on a temporary basis, but (a) that's going to be expensive, and (b) this is a mechanic that any psionic could do with the same versatility (and cost). It's not an Erudite advantage.

Erudites have their strengths and weaknesses. Bottomline, they will always have more versatility than a corresponding Wilder. Give the Wilder gear or feats to improve her versatility, and you make an Erudite with corresponding gear value or feats more powerful.

A Wilder will have more power, due to her surging ability. An Erudite (or any psionic) may duplicate some of this, but not all.

IMO, it's good to have that power vs. versatility choice. Which is better?? IMO, both power and versatility suffer diminishing returns, but I think power tops out faster than versatility. I'm more likely to want a greater choice in powers than I am to want to blast something with 26d6 rather than 20d6.

YMMV

erikun
2009-12-16, 05:09 PM
I see that a number of questions have already been answered, so I will just answer a select few from the first post.

I've never played an Erudite myself, but I would be inclined to follow the table (11 unique powers/day @ level 20) than a different interpretation of the text. Using the other interpretation, a 7th level Erudite would be able to manifest 16 different powers each day - more than the Psion even knows at that level. And the difference only gets larger at higher levels.

I know of no RAW on how the Erudite interacts with prestige classes, either for unique powers/day or for "another psionic class" considerations. It is probably RAI that the Erudite gainst UP/D with a PrC, just as it is probably RAI that a Ardent gainst mantles with a PrC, but it is not stated anywhere.

The only ways for a (standard) Erudite to gain 9th level powers not on the Psion/Wilder list are through Psychic Chirurgery, Epic Expanded Knowledge, or Power Thief (temporarily, for the last one). The Favored Discilpline/Mantled Erudite can get around this, as the extra powers are "considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning" and thus can be learned up to 9th level for the Erudite. At least, that's how I would read it RAW (and RAI).

Ack! Spell to Power! :smalleek: It's like adding mud to a perfectly good piece of chocolate fudge. Or a munchkin's wet dream...

I've read over the Spell to Power variant several times, and I'm seeing nothing indicating that you can learn a spell cast upon you. "You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it," and the Erudite specifies the various steps which must be followed to learn a new power. It doesn't specify when the Spellcraft check needs to be made, but doesn't say that the check replaces the rest of the procedure.

The is nothing stopping the Spell to Power Erudite from learning Legend Lore (Bard 4) instead of Legend Lore (Wizard 6), just as there is nothing stopping any psionic character from using Expanded Knowledge to learn Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) as a Psychic Warrior power rather than an Egoist power.

I don't know of an Erudite handbook, although the strategies would greatly depend on which UP/D interpretation you are using. Still, a Psion Handbook would be useful, as Erudites can learn all the powers a Psion can (and from multiple disciplines, without using a feat).

Finally, the Wilder does make a semi-decent gish. 3/4 BAB, d6 HD, CHA to AC, and automatically buffs herself when surging. It makes the Wilder/Slayer easier to enter, and a bit more resilient than a Psion/Slayer.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 05:17 PM
Nope. Permanently. An Erudite may only add powers to his powers known if they are on a discipline list or the general list. Your trick of wanting to keep reforming EK to get other powers does not work, because EK is required for each non-general/non-discipline power you want to know.

Pertinent rule:
Learning Discipline Powers: An erudite can learn discipline powers only by directly learning a power from another's repertoire, learning it from a power stone, or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat (EPH 46). In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.

Pertinent post:


An Erudite can take EK, craft a know stone with the power in it, psychic reform another EK, put that it in a stone, etc, then learn as many powers as he pleases.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 05:26 PM
As it turns out an erudite DOES need the EK as well, so they are not as free as you once thought are they?

He needs one + tattoo, to get and keep every discipline power below 9 in the game. An EWilder needs all 5 for just 5 extra discipline powers known. That's 4 extra feats over the EWilder. That's 4 feats he can use for EK to get the 9th level powers if he chooses.

Since StP Erudite is broken, let's use Favored Discipline Erudite instead. Now he picks a discipline, and can do the same trick not just with discipline powers, but with powers from every class list in the chosen school. AND he gets the 9th-level powers from his chosen discipline for free.

The Base Wilder gets... 11 powers known, period, and has to dip into regular feats to use EK, making it even worse.

So yeah, I'd say I'm still right.

Also, I agree with Myrmex - self-damage beats losing turns.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 05:38 PM
Having to play Erudite at low levels would be painful, for sure.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 05:43 PM
Pertinent rule:
Learning Discipline Powers: An erudite can learn discipline powers only by directly learning a power from another's repertoire, learning it from a power stone, or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat (EPH 46). In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.

Pertinent post:We're ships passing in the night.
An Erudite doesn't need to use EK to learn a general or discipline power. While you may use this mechanic (if a DM does not wack you with a cheese stick), you don't really help yourself: you want to craft a power stone each time and spend the extra XP and gold for that? Why not just buy the power stone or (better still) get close with a friendly psion or wilder. (Let's not even get into the implications of when and how she teaches you Sense Link: this is not BoEF.)

As for using EK to learn a power of another class list (Lurk, PsyWar, etc.), read the language you quoted: an Erudite may only learn general or discipline powers from a stone / willing partner. Hence the need for EK to learn these, and if the Erudite swaps out EK (Lurk power) for EK (PsyWar power), he will lose the Lurk power. He has no mechanic allowing him to hold on to it.

KellKheraptis
2009-12-16, 05:45 PM
The main thing with cross-referencing a GOD/Batman/Psion guide for an Erudite is they can also change focus just by doing a Linked Psychic Reformation. I've had mine use the Locate City nuke on round two of combat just to rattle the enemy ("Choose, kill us or save your family.").

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 05:46 PM
We're ships passing in the night.
An Erudite doesn't need to use EK to learn a general or discipline power. While you may use this mechanic (if a DM does not wack you with a cheese stick), you don't really help yourself: you want to craft a power stone each time and spend the extra XP and gold for that? Why not just buy the power stone or (better still) get close with a friendly psion or wilder. (Let's not even get into the implications of when and how she teaches you Sense Link: this is not BoEF.)

Right; I was just pointing out that if you're limited in item access (hey, it happens), you can circumvent it.


As for using EK to learn a power of another class list (Lurk, PsyWar, etc.), read the language you quoted: an Erudite may only learn general or discipline powers from a stone / willing partner. Hence the need for EK to learn these, and if the Erudite swaps out EK (Lurk power) for EK (PsyWar power), he will lose the Lurk power. He has no mechanic allowing him to hold on to it.

Fair enough.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 06:05 PM
Having to play Erudite at low levels would be painful, for sure.

Possible, but I'm not convinced. You wouldn't need to be pumping ML at lower levels anyway. It's not like you'd be augmenting anything.

At lower levels, they have a free psicrystal and either a bonus feat, mantle granted power, discipline (with associated class skill, like the ever-useful Autohypnosis) or any first-level spell or cantrip in the party wizard's book. Not that manifesting Prestidigitation (and being locked into it) is necessarily a good idea, but they could grab sleep.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 06:07 PM
Possible, but I'm not convinced. You wouldn't need to be pumping ML at lower levels anyway. It's not like you'd be augmenting anything.

At lower levels, they have a free psicrystal and either a bonus feat, mantle granted power, discipline (with associated class skill, like the ever-useful Autohypnosis) or any first-level spell or cantrip in the party wizard's book. Not that manifesting Prestidigitation (and being locked into it) is necessarily a good idea, but they could grab sleep.

Oh; with StP. I was thinking vanilla erudite. You could manifest crystal shard a few times/day and that would be it.

Otherwise, spamming sleep or color spray wouldn't be bad at all.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 06:13 PM
Oh; with StP. I was thinking vanilla erudite. You could manifest crystal shard a few times/day and that would be it.

Otherwise, spamming sleep or color spray wouldn't be bad at all.

I mentioned all the variants in that post actually. Although ruling that FD Erudites get the discipline class skill might not be RAW.

Getting the Mantle power is, however, and can be useful at low levels. For example, Deception Mantle lets you gain 50% concealment by dropping your focus. Force Mantle gives you +1 AC anytime you're focused, Creation Mantle gives you Ectopic Form for free, etc.

Samb
2009-12-16, 06:24 PM
He needs one + tattoo, to get and keep every discipline power below 9 in the game. An EWilder needs all 5 for just 5 extra discipline powers known. That's 4 extra feats over the EWilder. That's 4 feats he can use for EK to get the 9th level powers if he chooses.
If you include psicrystal affinity, erudite only has 6 bonus feats that's 2 more potential EKs than Ed. wilder. So while it is an advantage it hardly justifies your point of view entirely.



Since StP Erudite is broken, let's use Favored Discipline Erudite instead. Now he picks a discipline, and can do the same trick not just with discipline powers, but with powers from every class list in the chosen school. AND he gets the 9th-level powers from his chosen discipline for free.

Hey that is very nice, too bad any manifesting class can do that with enough psyreform tattoos. Not just wilders.


The Base Wilder gets... 11 powers known, period, and has to dip into regular feats to use EK, making it even worse.

So yeah, I'd say I'm still right.

So your opinion didn't change when you learned that the educated variant gives 4 extra powers from any disipline?
You once asserted that wilders had less PP which was false. Granted if you didn't know about scribe greater tattoo and its applications, psyreform still replicates most of the whole thing that makes erudites great. Even powers like alter reality can do the job at the cost of XP which you most likily make up for. Not the best solution for versatility compared to psyreform tattoo but it is there nonetheless



Also, I agree with Myrmex - self-damage beats losing turns.

With a erudite pathetic HP I'd say you would need PSV up to safely use this. Which would result in..... a lose of a turn (at least) to manifest vigor (not fully augmented since overchannel hurt you) and share pain (I assume you have this extented). So 100% lose of turn AND 100% to take damage. Compared to 5-15% of that that happening with wild surge? I'm no math whiz but I'm pretty sure wild surge wins, oh about 85-95% of the time. And let's not even get into the numerous ways to get around the daze effect (which is one of the key things to factor when building a wilder, that and the amount of powers you have).



You are not comparing the numbers. Look at what role erudite is supposed to fill in a party and compare it to its comtempories. With a great pool of PP, are is their versatility enough to compete with a psion, who has 3 times the number of powers? I'd say no. A psion also has bonus feats, and access to powers like psyreform (and it's tattoo'd form) and the Reality powers which further the psion's options. So it's pretty clear a psion is just better.

Not so clear with a wilder. An erudite can pick any power on his repertoire, but a wilder still has access to reality powers and psyreform, allowing her to mimic (albeit imperfectly) the versatility of a erudite. An erudite could take 7 levels in anarchic initiate and get +2 ML by level 12, but a wilder at level 12 could be surging at well over that and gaining other benefits in melee/blasting.

A eurdite just doesn't stand out from other psionic classes if you factor in PR and the reality line powers. Even less when you factor in educated wilder variant and the fact that psyreform tattoo costs no XP, the balance is clearly in favor of wilder.

jseah
2009-12-16, 06:35 PM
I have played an erudite at low levels. Level 4 IIRC. (or maybe level 3 due to xp cost of learning powers, I burned half my wbl learning new stuff)

It was a spell to power erudite however, using the UPD per level interpretation. So it's definitely slightly out there in the power scale.
(There was also a recharge mechanic involving incarnum but it never came into play)
There is also the consideration that I was aiming for a non-offensive character which did change the way I picked powers.

I remember saving two PCs from That Damn Crab by summoning monsters and dimension swapping (was that the name of that power which swapped two allied characters?) the summon with the grappled people.

Hardly a kind of tactic that a Psion would have picked for his powers known. I just pulled it out of my hat on the fly.

To a certain extent, given that I have a tendency to play strategically focused characters, erudite is deliciously tasty with it's potentially enormous spell and power access.

Samb
2009-12-16, 06:36 PM
Okay I reread the section on erudites learning discipline powers and I must say I was right. They are basically gain any power, in any discipline, as long as you can find psion/lurk/ardent of that discipline or a power stone with it. Both of which don't sound hard at all depending on your DM (which I guess could be a big deal).



EK seems to add to your repertoire, and doesn't really increase your power per day since it explicitly stated that in the section.

Thalnawr
2009-12-16, 06:56 PM
Or, instead of getting Sleep from StP... if your GM allows Hyperconscious, there's Psionic Sleep, which is superior in every way.

Stegyre
2009-12-16, 07:28 PM
Okay I reread the section on erudites learning discipline powers and I must say I was right. They are basically gain any power, in any discipline, as long as you can find psion/lurk/ardent of that discipline or a power stone with it. Both of which don't sound hard at all depending on your DM (which I guess could be a big deal).
Not sure what you mean by that. The RAW is pretty specific about referring to Discipline Lists, which are Egoist, Nomad, etc., not Psychometabolism, Psychoportation, so an Erudite may only learn a power on PWar, Lurk, and other class-specific lists (and not on the general or a discipline list) by taking EK.

As for trying to duplicate the Erudite's versatility using psionic tattoos, you're leaving several things out of the equation.
First, the gold cost: for a 4th level power, that's 1,400; since you want this to be reusable, you are going to attach a tattoo capacitor, that's another 1,250. For a total cost of 2,650, you have a tattoo that you can only use once every 7 days (because that's how long it takes to recharge). If you want to use it more frequently, you must add a transducer tattoo for another 1,250. This will allow you to recharge faster, but at a 2:1 cost.

You'll have to get a PR tattoo for each suite of powers you'd like to have (another 1,400), but you can at least save on the capacitor and transducer by getting a integrated circuit tattoo (for a measly 50), which will allow you to attach the capacitor and transducer to any of the PR tattoos.

This is still a cost of 2,550 + 1,400 * power suites, plus 14 power points each time you want to use this ability.

The Erudite spends nothing for this same ability, no gold, no power points. Hence, he has more gold for magic items and more power points for manifesting.

At high levels, these costs provide only a small edge to the Erudite, at low levels, the pp cost alone is a significant portion of a wilder's daily pp, and the gold is a significant portion of WBL. You cannot simply handwave these costs away.

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 08:13 PM
If you include psicrystal affinity, erudite only has 6 bonus feats that's 2 more potential EKs than Ed. wilder. So while it is an advantage it hardly justifies your point of view entirely.

No. You're not listening.

You only need ONE EK FEAT, EVER, and a reformation tattoo. All the other feats are open. I can't see how you can't grasp this.

1) Pick a discipline power with EK.
2) Make a stone with it.
3) Reform the feat away and retake it, choosing a new power. You still have the stone containing the first power.
4) Learn the discipline power using the Erudite's Psicraft check (this is the step the Wilder cannot perform.)
5) Repeat.

That's one EK feat, to get every Discipline power you could possibly want. Get it yet?


Or, instead of getting Sleep from StP... if your GM allows Hyperconscious, there's Psionic Sleep, which is superior in every way.

I love Hyperconscious, but sadly it's 3rd party material. Many DMs frown on this.

FMArthur
2009-12-16, 09:28 PM
I'm curious about the viability of this trick and doubtful of its comparability to an Erudite, who has access to every one of his powers as long as he has at least one remaining daily Unique Power. There are only a few ways to do the reusable Psychic Reformation idea for more powers known, as I see it. I wanna take a closer look, so I'll share my analysis. (Tattoo stuff is all on this page, for reference) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a)

You have 17 tattoo slots. Each Psychic Reform tattoo uses 3. The "Special Tattoos" significant to this idea use one each: Integrated Circuit, Mental Tap, Capacitor, and Transducer.

#1: You have access to any ONE preplanned power set on your body, out of 5, and must wait a full week to recharge before changing again. This is the worst method by far, but gets you the most powers and could still be a useful investment in a game if all you wanted was a change once in a while. You fill up 15 tattoo slots with 5 Psychic Reformations, and then use an Integrated Circuit tattoo to reassign one Capacitor tattoo to any other tattoo using two standard actions. You can use the tattoo assigned to the Capacitor as a standard action and it won't fade away. The capacitor will take 7 days to be reused again. You can also choose to use a tattoo not attached to a charged capacitor but it will disappear after use.

#2: You have access to ALL power sets on your body out of 4, each as a standard action once a week. You use up 12 slots with 4 Psychic Reformations and another 4 with Capacitors on each. Your last slot can go to a Transducer so that for 14 pp you can recharge one of your capacitors for reuse, or an Integrated Circuit to switch fresh capacitors with other tattoos for two standard actions.

#3: You have access to TWO power sets on your body out of 4, and another with a standard action. You use up 12 slots with 4 Psychic Reformations, 1 slot with an Integrated Circuit, 1 slot with a Mental Tap, 1 slot with a Transducer, and 2 slot with two Capacitors. You link your Mental Tap and a Capacitor to one PsyReform tattoo, and your Capacitor to another. So you have your current set of powers and another set available with as little as a Swift action, and yet another set available after a standard action. Out of battle you can take the time to choose your Capacitor-linked Psychic Reformation tattoos and recharge each capacitor for 14 power points and many actions.

#4: You have access to ALL power sets on your body out of 3 as swift actions, once per battle each. 3 x Psychic Reform: 9 slots. 3 x Capacitor: 3 slots. 3 x Mental Tap: 3 slots. 1 Transducer and 1 Integrated Circuit. Seems to be the best so far but you've only got three sets of powers. You swap the transducer around out of battle to recharge every capacitor.


#4 really seems to be the only one that can come close to an Erudite, but only as a psion and the PP cost would get really significant if you had to swap too often. What a headache, though.

Samb
2009-12-17, 12:36 AM
Sinfire already stated why erudite isn't as good as a wilder with psyreform. I've elaborated on that, and included variants and other tricks. I'll leave it at that.

A spending 20k and some XP once to gain the ability to change a non-erudite's powers, skills and feats around is worth it. I'm not handwaving it, just don't consider it even a factor since it is almost irrelevant, and quite frankly feels like clutching at straws.

jseah
2009-12-17, 06:10 AM
I've re-read Psychic Reformation, I must ask, does your trick allow you to swap out the powers for new ones without having to prepare the new ones ahead of time?

Because, depending on how your DM interprets things, Psychic Reformation in some sort of triggerable thing like Psychic Tattoos could be no more specified than the xp cost. (eg. this is a 500xp Psychic Reformation)

A bit like how scrolls of permanency are listed as a X CL permanency with Y xp. Not (wall of fire) permanency.


Of course, if that is so, then Psychic Reformation at the cost of 14 PP (2:1 ratio for recharging) is pretty damn good.

***********************************************

One wonders what happens if you tried this on an erudite.

Arugably, the erudite can now change his/her learnt powers for any other powers that are learnable. Which is pretty insane.

How does this interact with UPD? Especially since we're talking about character creation choices, what happens when a UPD that was used is formatted away?

Does the erudite get the now-impossible UPD back? If so, this could be a UPD recharge mechanic for the erudite.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 07:48 AM
Sinfire already stated why erudite isn't as good as a wilder with psyreform. I've elaborated on that, and included variants and other tricks. I'll leave it at that.

A spending 20k and some XP once to gain the ability to change a non-erudite's powers, skills and feats around is worth it. I'm not handwaving it, just don't consider it even a factor since it is almost irrelevant, and quite frankly feels like clutching at straws.

I'm going to say this one more time.

An Educated Wilder has no way to permanently learn discipline powers gained by EK. An Erudite does.

Therefore, that Wilder can have a maximum of FIVE discipline powers known without dipping into their normal feats. An Erudite only needs one of his bonus feats for EK to learn as many discipline powers as he wants (below 9th) leaving ALL the rest of his bonus feats free.

Refute my last post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7517390&postcount=60) and we can talk, until then I'm done acknowledging you.

Samb
2009-12-17, 10:47 AM
Last I checked, EK permenantly added any power to your list, provided you don't retrain or use psyreform to change them. Erdites don't have a list, and EK works differently for them from what I can gather in CPsi (don't know about the Dragon magazine version). So yeah, an erudite adds a bunch of powers to his repertiore, which was the assumption I always had of them to start with.

What erudite lacks is a way to increase the number of UP per day. Although, depending on play style you might not ever use all your UP. Most batmans/gods just spam one power/spell to win whole encounters, erudite (psion, ardent or wilder for that matter) are no different.

If your whole selling point on erudite is that they have more feats then I'm sorry, I'm not convinced. Can any of them come close to wilder's class feaures? IMO they don't, overchannel is just a bootleg version that makes you lose a turn every at least once an encounter hardly optimal. So a fighter is even better than all other classes because they get the most feats? Sorry but I just don't buy it.

Thalnawr
2009-12-17, 11:16 AM
I love Hyperconscious, but sadly it's 3rd party material. Many DMs frown on this.
I guess I'm just lucky my DM loves Sword and Sorcery's material then.

Samb
2009-12-17, 11:39 AM
I guess I'm just lucky my DM loves Sword and Sorcery's material then.

Untapped potential is another must for psionic lovers. Ask your dm if you could include that as it has a bunch of racial subs, new powers, and items that are mechanically sound. The new class, hive mind, in very interesting as well.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 12:04 PM
Last I checked, EK permenantly added any power to your list, provided you don't retrain or use psyreform to change them. Erdites don't have a list, and EK works differently for them from what I can gather in CPsi (don't know about the Dragon magazine version). So yeah, an erudite adds a bunch of powers to his repertiore, which was the assumption I always had of them to start with.

Wrong. Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) works the same for an Erudite as it does for any other manifester, right down to the "1 level lower than maximum" restriction.

What sets an Erudite apart is that they can then learn the power by another means (Psicraft) and retrain the feat with Reform, choosing another power. Wilders can retrain the feat also, but have no way of keeping the power they swapped out.


If your whole selling point on erudite is that they have more feats then I'm sorry, I'm not convinced. Can any of them come close to wilder's class feaures? IMO they don't, overchannel is just a bootleg version that makes you lose a turn every at least once an encounter hardly optimal. So a fighter is even better than all other classes because they get the most feats? Sorry but I just don't buy it.

Wrong again. Wild Surge is the one that makes you lose a turn, not Overchannel. Overchannel makes you take damage instead (and combined with Talented doesn't even do that much on lower-level powers.) Wild Surge also drains your power points if you enervate.

And if you want Wild Surge that badly, Anarchic Initiate is full casting. The Erudite can qualify easily and loses nothing for doing so, so long as he has more Erudite levels than AI levels. (Easily done, as the capstone sucks - AI 8 is where I would jump off.)

The Wilder's class features aren't nearly as good as you think. Elude Touch increases your touch AC, but can't increase it past your regular AC - and you're not proficient with armor. Surging Euphoria is great for a gish, but if you wanted to be a gish you wouldn't be an Erudite anyway, so that's moot. Volatile Mind applies to buffs as well as attacks, so you have to waste a standard action if you want someone Chirurgering you, joining a Metaconcert, Mind Blanking you etc. without a penalty. RAW it even applies to self-buffs, and since you need a standard action to lower it, you can never manifest telepathy buffs on yourself without the penalty unless you quicken them. So yeah.

Samb
2009-12-17, 01:04 PM
Go read the entry on Erudite on learning disipline powers. It expressily states EK adds to your repertiore, Erudite don't have a list of powers known. They have a repertiore (or spellbook if you will) that they can pick from. EK doesn't suddenly give you a list when you didn't have one to begin with. Page 154 of CPsi lists the ruling of EK under "Adding powers to an erudite's repertoire", go read it if you don't believe me. You asked to understand Erudite in your OP, don't get mad at me when I do exactly that.

You seem to forget that you are a erudite with a mere d4 HD. You will need a vigor to stop the hurt, which will cost you a standard action. Or you can use talented and use your focus (no metapsionics) but limited to lower level powers. OR you can take the damage, which will limit the number of times you can boost your ML. Lose-lose.

Wild surge is a CHANCE to become dazed. Chance as in not 100% (5%-30%), and there are several easy ways to bypass it from PrC class features (sanctifed mind), spells (favored of Illmater), feats (swift recovery), powers (schism) or race sub level (meanad from untapped potential).

You can get wild surge via anarchic initate, and you should since wild surge is that good. But you will only get to +2 wild surge by level 12, which a wilder can achieve by level 3. That's a 9 level difference, whic is like a lot.

jseah
2009-12-17, 01:12 PM
It depends on what you want to use the psionic character for.

Erudite works best in a party-support role, substituting for a skillmonkey and working in the strategic role.
Their flexibility gives them the chance to say, "Hey, do we X now? Well, I've got it if no one else does. "
UPD doesn't matter so much if you're using your powers intelligently to bypass encounters. Battles suck up a lot of UPDs because you need to change tactics every so often. Avoiding battles is usually no more than one or two powers away.

Wilder is better in combat, no doubt, mostly due to Wild Surge and more hp.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 01:25 PM
Go read the entry on Erudite on learning disipline powers. It expressily states EK adds to your repertiore, Erudite don't have a list of powers known. They have a repertiore (or spellbook if you will) that they can pick from. EK doesn't suddenly give you a list when you didn't have one to begin with. Page 154 of CPsi lists the ruling of EK under "Adding powers to an erudite's repertoire", go read it if you don't believe me. You asked to understand Erudite in your OP, don't get mad at me when I do exactly that.

I'm not mad, far from it. And I know the difference between the repertoire and powers known.

Functionally, there is no difference between a repertoire and powers known. You walk around with your repertoire in your head (just like a Wilder with their powers known) and can manifest any power from that list whenever you like, which locks it in to your UPD for that day.

Where did I ever said EK gives you a list? It gives you one single power. You can then craft a Dorje or Power Stone with that power, and reform the feat to learn a new power. I've explained this repeatedly.

I do understand Erudite now, thanks to this thread. Quite a bit better than you do, it would seem.


You seem to forget that you are a erudite with a mere d4 HD. You will need a vigor to stop the hurt, which will cost you a standard action. Or you can use talented and use your focus (no metapsionics) but limited to lower level powers. OR you can take the damage, which will limit the number of times you can boost your ML. Lose-lose.

There are lots of ways to "stop the hurt" besides Vigor. Any damage reduction will do it. Share Pain (with your psicrystal, if nothing else.) Or you can just not Overchannel at all; do you need it for every encounter?

Also, Talented stops the hurt for all powers 1st to 3rd level without any drawback, and Erudite has feats to spare.


Wild surge is a CHANCE to become dazed. Chance as in not 100% (5%-30%), and there are several easy ways to bypass it from PrC class features (sanctifed mind), spells (favored of Illmater), feats (swift recovery), powers (schism) or race sub level (meanad from untapped potential).

So? There are ways around psychic enervation just as there are ways around overchannel damage, what's your point? I'd still rather take some damage than risk being daze.


You can get wild surge via anarchic initate, and you should since wild surge is that good. But you will only get to +2 wild surge by level 12, which a wilder can achieve by level 3. That's a 9 level difference, whic is like a lot.

Wild Surge is good if you're blasting, but it's not the end-all and be-all of psionics. Under the transparency rules, any means of increasing caster level increase manifester level also by default - Ioun Stones, Couatl Feathers etc.
I'd rather have the feats.

Stegyre
2009-12-17, 01:40 PM
Okay, this thread's done. If all we have is a pissing match between wilder fans and erudite fans, with absolutely no new information or arguments, even, it's past time to move on. Gentlebeings, play your own characters; you're not going to change the other guy's mind, and you are no more likely to "win" this argument than you are to "win" D&D. :smallwink:

Samb
2009-12-17, 01:45 PM
I'm not mad, far from it. And I know the difference between the repertoire and powers known.

Functionally, there is no difference between a repertoire and powers known. You walk around with your repertoire in your head (just like a Wilder with their powers known) and can manifest any power from that list whenever you like, which locks it in to your UPD for that day.

Where did I ever said EK gives you a list? It gives you one single power. You can then craft a Dorje or Power Stone with that power, and reform the feat to learn a new power. I've explained this repeatedly.
Then we are in agreement, because I thought you were saying EK gave you a non-unique power that is always there, basically an extra power to save your unique powers on, which would be good since that maximizes your unique powers, allowing more versatility due to more freed up unique powers.



I do understand Erudite now, thanks to this thread. Quite a bit better than you do, it would seem. Don't say you're not mad and then act that way, we are just engaging on a debate of fictional classes.



There are lots of ways to "stop the hurt" besides Vigor. Any damage reduction will do it. Share Pain (with your psicrystal, if nothing else.) Or you can just not Overchannel at all; do you need it for every encounter?

They say "thou shall not lose ML" for a reason. The converse is true also "thou shall gain ML when possible" if I have to tell you why ML is good then you need a thread called "help me under psionics" because that is too much of a tangent for me to get into.



Also, Talented stops the hurt for all powers 1st to 3rd level without any drawback, and Erudite has feats to spare.
The point isn't that it costs a feat (wow a feat that costs a feat!!!? what a concept!!!) but that is limits you to low level powers AND uses your psionic focus. You know that psionic focus that you use for linked power (a great reason to have more ML)???




So? There are ways around psychic enervation just as there are ways around overchannel damage, what's your point? I'd still rather take some damage than risk being daze.
But the method to overcome/bypass overchannel costs you at least one action 100%, compared to only a chance of losing a turn with wild surge.




Wild Surge is good if you're blasting, but it's not the end-all and be-all of psionics. Under the transparency rules, any means of increasing caster level increase manifester level also by default - Ioun Stones, Couatl Feathers etc.
I'd rather have the feats.
Again if I have to tell you why ML is good for all aspects of manifesting then you need to read up on what ML are and then tell me why they are important to a full manifester. I would have thought this was common knowledge but your statements make me wonder.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-17, 02:10 PM
Okay, so, just to make sure I'm quite clear on this.


Erudite vs Psion

DM: You are confronted with a wall!
Wizard: I did not expect a wall this morning! I have no such spell prepared and thus cannot continue.
Psion: I happen to have Levitate on my power's known list! I spend some points and use Levitate!
Erudite: I will also use Levitate, because I have acquired many, many powers to choose from and thus have the PERFECT solution!

DM: You are confronted with a duck!
Psion: I do not have fireball on my power list and am thus unable to cook it! Curses! I will have to use the powers already on my list to solve this problem!

Erudite: I have a fireball spell, but since I already used Levitate and Create Duck, I have run out of new powers to choose from! I must find a way to solve the problem using powers I have already cast today.

Stegyre
2009-12-17, 02:24 PM
DM: You are confronted with a duck!
Psion: I do not have fireball on my power list and am thus unable to cook it! Curses! I will have to use the powers already on my list to solve this problem!

Erudite: I have a fireball spell Energy Missile, but since I already used Levitate and Create Duck, I have run out of new powers to choose from! I must find a way to solve the problem using powers I have already cast today.
Fixed it for you, replacing the spell with a power.

For the record, and I think no one disagrees with this, if your GM offers you a CStP Erudite, grab it quickly, before he sobers up.
Grab it over a plain vanilla or any other variant of Erudite.
Grab it over a Psion or Wilder.
Grab it over a Wizard.
Grab it, and do not let go.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 02:32 PM
Don't say you're not mad and then act that way, we are just engaging on a debate of fictional classes.

Again, I'm not. I was merely stating fact. I'll even smile. :smallsmile:


They say "thou shall not lose ML" for a reason. The converse is true also "thou shall gain ML when possible" if I have to tell you why ML is good then you need a thread called "help me under psionics" because that is too much of a tangent for me to get into.

"Thou shalt not lose ML" is concrete because it delays your power progression - both PP and powers known.

"Thou shalt gain ML" is less concrete - increasing your manifester level does not give you more power points or powers known. It just allows you to augment higher, and increases some other variable benefits of a power.

This is a great benefit for blasting, is rarely necessary for anything else... and isn't even necessary for blasting.


The point isn't that it costs a feat (wow a feat that costs a feat!!!? what a concept!!!) but that is limits you to low level powers AND uses your psionic focus. You know that psionic focus that you use for linked power (a great reason to have more ML)???

Guess what? You have a psicrystal, which has its own focus.


But the method to overcome/bypass overchannel costs you at least one action 100%, compared to only a chance of losing a turn with wild surge.

Getting DR costs an action? I can do it with items. Share Pain isn't hours/level? News to me.


Again if I have to tell you why ML is good for all aspects of manifesting then you need to read up on what ML are and then tell me why they are important to a full manifester. I would have thought this was common knowledge but your statements make me wonder.

Gaining ML bonuses is good, but losing ML (Sanctified Mind, lolwut) to do it is not. Wild Surge increases your potential but does not give you any new powers known. And Wild Surge is not the only way to increase your ML, your opinions to the contrary.

Samb
2009-12-17, 02:51 PM
"Thou shalt not lose ML" is concrete because it delays your power progression - both PP and powers known.

"Thou shalt gain ML" is less concrete - increasing your manifester level does not give you more power points or powers known. It just allows you to augment higher, and increases some other variable benefits of a power.

This is a great benefit for blasting, is rarely necessary for anything else... and isn't even necessary for blasting.

But ML also effects things like how much point can go into metapsionics, it affects how long your powers last, the range, DC, area and even how high of a metamorph HD. So no, ML isn't just for damage, it prevades through every power you manifest.

The most important being metapsionics, and linked power in particular. More ML means more PP you can dump into linked power or even quicken power.



Guess what? You have a psicrystal, which has its own focus.
True, but the better way is to not use your focus in the first place. An ardent with ideal mantle ACF is near broken for this very reason. Not using focus>> using focus no matter the source.




Getting DR costs an action? I can do it with items. Share Pain isn't hours/level? News to me.
Share pain is hour/ML but vigor isn't. If you are just using share pain on a cohort/thrall that is big and tough then sure, no very nice of you but it works. The better way is to use vigor and share pain on your psicrystal, with share pain buffed/extened before hand. This will still use an action for the vigor but is by far the best way.




Gaining ML bonuses is good, but losing ML (Sanctified Mind, lolwut) to do it is not. Wild Surge increases your potential but does not give you any new powers known. And Wild Surge is not the only way to increase your ML, your opinions to the contrary.
Hey sanctified mind is one of the only PrC that has full BAB (the other is slayer) so it a decent PrC for psi-gish so watch that tone young man! But if all you care about is manifesting then no, sactified mind isn't ideal, but this is an issue about party roles rather than mechanics.
Wild surge isn't the only way to increase you ML, but it is the best. There was a thread up on how to increase ML, and most of them are specific to mantle, or element and none of them provide free augmentation PP or can be used across the board.

Oh and sactified mind isn't the best way to avoid daze either. I prefer schism, or having favor of illmater cast on me (or be a illiumian wilder4/cleric 1/psychic thurage 10 and cast it on myself). Swift recovery costs a move action, but is the cheapiest and fastest way. SM is great for the gishy stuff like hitting things.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 02:58 PM
But ML also effects things like how much point can go into metapsionics, it affects how long your powers last, the range, DC, area and even how high of a metamorph HD. So no, ML isn't just for damage, it prevades through every power you manifest.

The most important being metapsionics, and linked power in particular. More ML means more PP you can dump into linked power or even quicken power.

Again, I'm not disputing that high ML is good, but you can be quite effective without it.

Dumping all your PP into one power (Linked or not) makes you better at challenges that require one power to solve, not better in general.



True, but the better way is to not use your focus in the first place. An ardent with ideal mantle ACF is near broken for this very reason. Not using focus>> using focus no matter the source.

Having two focuses active does nothing extra, so what's wrong with using one of them?


Share pain is hour/ML but vigor isn't. If you are just using share pain on a cohort/thrall that is big and tough then sure, no very nice of you but it works. The better way is to use vigor and share pain on your psicrystal, with share pain buffed/extened before hand. This will still use an action for the vigor but is by far the best way.

Naturally I meant using it with the psicrystal (which has hardness, and which the Erudite gets for free.)


Hey sanctified mind is one of the only PrC that has full BAB (the other is slayer) so it a decent PrC for psi-gish so watch that tone young man! But if all you care about is manifesting then no, sactified mind isn't ideal, but this is an issue about party roles rather than mechanics.

Of course all I care about is manifesting. Wilder is the better gish, I never disputed that. Why on earth would you be an Erudite gish? :smallconfused:


Wild surge isn't the only way to increase you ML, but it is the best. There was a thread up on how to increase ML, and most of them are specific to mantle, or element and none of them provide free augmentation PP or can be used across the board.

You forgot this line: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y)

"Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics."

Even if you limit that to arcane-only, that still adds a dozen ways to increase ML through items alone. There are guides all over on increasing Caster Level, just pick one.

Samb
2009-12-17, 03:04 PM
Yeah I asked weither increasing CL could increase ML in that thread "raising ML" but was told that it is an exception to psi-magic transparency. I'll see if I can dig it up since it did have good info and alternatives.

Share pain on psicrystal without shared vigor??? Wow that sounds risky. I mean sure they have DR, but still no one has establihed how to get them back if they die. The psion handbook even suggests every psion take psionic damage repair just to avoid this fate. Gutsy but not something I would do, nor is it recommended by the community at large.

Samb
2009-12-17, 03:11 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127103&highlight=raising+manifester+level

Raising ML thread. There are items in magic of eberron that ignore ML cap on PP that is not included in the OP. Needless to say that is very powerful.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 03:21 PM
I agree, but every item we find makes Wild Surge that less necessary.

And since you mentioned using Hyperconscious, I could just take Permanent Focus (Talented) in there with one of my bonus Erudite feats as well, and not worry about blowing my psionic focus on it anymore.

Anyway, I think Steg is right - you play Wilders, I'll play Erudites, we'll agree to disagree amiably. :smallsmile: But we got a lot of post count out of this one, we did.

jseah
2009-12-17, 03:24 PM
That's... so broken.

One shard per ML? Power Link only costs 3k ea?

Well you do lose 1hp permanently per shard but think of the nova!

+2 free PP that can exceed ML cap. Per shard, it stacks. And is 3/day.
That adds to your own augmentation.

ML20 gives 20PP power + 3 overchannel (or 6 wild surge) + ... 40 from shards?
!@#$%

Samb
2009-12-17, 03:28 PM
Well items and feats that decrease cost do only that, they don't raise ML. Still good, but the items I mention just break the rules, thankfully they are race specific and really really rare (or should be).

Thing about permenant focus is that it only applies to feats that require focus to be maintained, like speed of thought rather than feats that expend it like deep impact or linked power. Too bad since I want all my attacks to be touch attacks. But Hyperconscious has yet another feat called permenant tattoo that recharges your tattoo everyday. Now you don't need to wait 7 days or pay 14 PP to use psyreform. Just make the tattoo and make it permenant and you even have more sets since it only takes up 3 slots.

I would recommend untapped potential as well, especially since moar powers= better erudite.

Samb
2009-12-17, 03:34 PM
That's... so broken.

One shard per ML? Power Link only costs 3k ea?

Well you do lose 1hp permanently per shard but think of the nova!

+2 free PP that can exceed ML cap. Per shard, it stacks. And is 3/day.
That adds to your own augmentation.

ML20 gives 20PP power + 3 overchannel (or 6 wild surge) + ... 40 from shards?
!@#$%

Good luck getting one of them. Either brave the ruins of Xen'dirk or go to that continent filled with uber dragons of every color. But I personally feel they are worth the risk, since the destruction would be spectacular.

This wasn't in that thread but one of the shards mentioned in that book allowed you swap out powers. Again it is kalashtar only, but they are great psi PCs to begin with.

jseah
2009-12-17, 03:38 PM
Or just take 10 ranks in Heal and Craft Universal Item and make it yourself.

More than worth the xp loss, the feat and the skill points IMO.

Samb
2009-12-17, 03:42 PM
Or just take 10 ranks in Heal and Craft Universal Item and make it yourself.

More than worth the xp loss, the feat and the skill points IMO.

Alas it is the raw material, a siberys dragonshard that is the hard part. They are only found in Xen'dirk or Argonnessen. Both places kind of suck.

jseah
2009-12-17, 03:44 PM
Pardon me, I'm not familiar with Eberron dragonshards.

So that thing has got to be found huh? Unless the Siberys dragonshards have a marketprice you can buy them at? Probably not.

Tsk, I see how that could screw things up.

Samb
2009-12-17, 04:13 PM
Considering that it literally is a part of one of the primorial dragon/creator yeah it's rare. Eberron shards are the most common and whole adventures while the sole goal of getting a handful of these.

Siberys shards are the rarest of all and found in ****ty, uncivilized places. Of course if you have a pushover.....