THE Girard Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Quorothorn

2009-12-16, 02:27 PM

I was just annoyed with his actions in 694, but with this new strip, my attitude towards him immediately skyrocketed to utter hate. We'll see if it remains at this level, of course, but currently my dislike towards him is on the same level as that for Snape and Cadsuane (which is to say boiling, swearing rage).

With characters like Miko (and Redcloak) about I honestly wasn't expecting Girard to make a bid for most blindly, idiotically self-righteous character in the universe. But he's definitely taking a good shot at it with his first non-crayon appearance (albeit it's a pre-set rant, so we'll see what's different if/when we meet him in person).

Also, if Elan's dead or badly hurt (or Haley, but she's more likely to be fine), I hope Girard has a good time in Hell. Actually, no I don't: I hope he has an awful time. In fact, even if Elan's alright I rather wish that just based on the arrogance and callous disregard for life required to set up a rant-trap like that. Or, alternatively, that Soon can somehow meet him in the afterlife to kick his ass (with us getting to see, of course).

Shhalahr Windrider

2009-12-16, 02:32 PM

Yeah. Girard is now officially…

Something I can't say on this forum. :smallmad:

SaintRidley

2009-12-16, 02:32 PM

If he had only lied to everyone else instead of just Soon, I'd be having no problem with his protection of his gate. However, he is proving to be catastrophically stupid in this.

If you want secrecy and illusion as your defence you don't half-arse the secrecy portion. He did. He deserves to have Xykon come knocking for that kind of idiocy.

Vemynal

2009-12-16, 02:34 PM

cuz ya know: everyone else in the party kinda had a betting poll going, its not like Girard was the only one thinking this would happen.

Obviously it never did but like I said: Girard wasn't the only one who thought this might happen.

Course the nuke might have been a bit much

Morty

2009-12-16, 02:35 PM

I have to admit, though I liked his speech in the previous comic - although it was pretty shortsighted on his side - the newest one estabilishes his position as a vengeful, paranoid [censored]. Getting back at people who pissed you off is undestandable, but not when the entire world it at stake.

Kish

2009-12-16, 02:35 PM

cuz ya know: everyone else in the party kinda had a betting poll going, its not like Girard was the only one thinking this would happen.

And when you say, "Everyone else," you mean, "Girard and Serini"?

And you're not dead wrong if someone else is dead wrong with you?

Gamerlord

2009-12-16, 02:39 PM

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 02:39 PM

A betting pool likely has more than two people. "good luck getting [Serini] to tell you" implies Soon wasn't on good terms with Serini either and we know that Dorukan was about to attack him during the crayon flashback. That means Lirian is the only one who might have been on good terms with Soon by the time the Scribble broke up.

Quorothorn

2009-12-16, 02:46 PM

I felt it was interesting, if very dumb, the way he acted, makes me curious on the mental state of the remaining OOTscribble members, and what made them hate each other to this point to begin with, also, sometimes I wonder if the OOTscribble story is a true story, if you know what I mean...

Me too, on all points. I'm really hoping Mr. Burlew goes on a Christmas tear and gives us lots of awesome updates. (Though that's a bit selfish of me to be sure. >_>)

A betting pool likely has more than two people. "good luck getting [Serini] to tell you" implies Soon wasn't on good terms with Serini either and we know that Dorukan was about to attack him during the crayon flashback. That means Lirian is the only one who might have been on good terms with Soon by the time the Scribble broke up.

Dorukan was only going to fight in the heat of the moment: we do not have confirmation that he kept his grudge. Though I agree it's a strong possibility.

Also, we only have Girard's word that Serini wouldn't trust Soon.

Kish

2009-12-16, 02:47 PM

Also, we only have Girard's word that Serini wouldn't trust Soon.
Whether or not she expected Soon to go after Girard's Gate, she bet ten thousand gold that he wouldn't within twelve weeks.

I also notice that Girard said "Serini has the coordinates," not "all the others have the coordinates." Not exactly supportive of the grand conspiracy of 4/5 surviving members of the Order of the Scribble to leave Soon out.

Severus

2009-12-16, 02:50 PM

Snape? How can you possibly hate snape? He was cooler than anybody else by several orders of magnitude. And he was played by Alan Rickman. Alan Rickman!

El Chupaqueso

2009-12-16, 02:56 PM

What bothers me most is that Girard rigged the spell to kill Soon or his "fascist palidin lackies." While trying to kill someone who's supposed to be your ally, or a group of people you don't even know is pretty sketchy to begin with, Girard even admits that there's a 10% chance that whoever's listening to the spell isn't even his intended target. So yeah, I guess Girard is the kind of guy who's okay with a 10% chance of killing some innocent civilians, as long as there's a 90% chance it'll kill the guy he hates, or at least someone that works for him.

I hope that when and if the Order finally does meet him in person, that Roy gives him a SEVERE chewing out for being so petty when the fate of the world is on the line.

Quorothorn

2009-12-16, 02:58 PM

Snape? How can you possibly hate snape? He was cooler than anybody else by several orders of magnitude. And he was played by Alan Rickman. Alan Rickman!

*Chuckles.* Moment I saw the user name I was like "there's gonna be someone who disagrees with me, eh".

Anyway, short explanation--without getting into any big self-righteous rants all my own--is that I hate him because he manages to stand out as a horrible teacher even amongst the Hogwarts staff (with gems like Lockhart, Umbridge, Binns, etc). And I've discovered that I loathe horrible teachers (probably because both my parents are good teachers).

Alan Rickman is certainly awesome, BTW. I'm totally with you on that point. But that doesn't mean I'm going to like every character he plays (especially since I pay much more attention to the books than the movies).

Whether or not she expected Soon to go after Girard's Gate, she bet ten thousand gold that he wouldn't within twelve weeks.

True, that. Not sure how much we can draw from it, o'course.

EDIT:

What bothers me most is that Girard rigged the spell to kill Soon or his "fascist palidin lackies." While trying to kill someone who's supposed to be your ally, or a group of people you don't even know is pretty sketchy to begin with, Girard even admits that there's a 10% chance that whoever's listening to the spell isn't even his intended target. So yeah, I guess Girard is the kind of guy who's okay with a 10% chance of killing some innocent civilians, as long as there's a 90% chance it'll kill the guy he hates, or at least someone that works for him.

I hope that when and if the Order finally does meet him in person, that Roy gives him a SEVERE chewing out for being so petty when the fate of the world is on the line.

Yes, exactly. I would place this fairly high up on the list of both "most reckless actions" and "pettiest actions" that we've seen in OOTS-land.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 03:04 PM

doliest

2009-12-16, 03:05 PM

Actually I'm enjoying Giraad immensely; it's been a while since we've had a really funny character who could give a hilarious speech. Really I'm going to have to call the Twelve Gods, "A glorified petting zoo, " from now on.:smallbiggrin:

Water-Smurf

2009-12-16, 03:07 PM

choken1

2009-12-16, 03:10 PM

Whatever it was that caused him to hate Soon so much has something to do with the death of that dwarf that was a part of their adventuring group.

According to the scribble back story, the fight which broke up the team was centered around Soon vs Girard and Dorukan where Soon got slapped with the blame for the death of their team member.

The team may have broken up and said good riddance to Soon but I believe that the rest of the members must have stayed on friendly terms. Heck two of them ended up becoming lovers.

That trap was specifically designed to punish Soon should he break his words and seek out the other gates which he specifically promised he would never do. Thanks to that 12 week comment we can assume that this trap was created shortly after the team broke up and Girard's hatred towards Soon was still at its peak. Girard simply believed strongly enough that Soon would break his words in matter of months.

Now if Girard is still alive, then he has a chance to redeem himself for his actions. He mentioned that the spell was designed to notify both him and Serini, should someone ever activate that trap. Serini is probably dead by now but we have no such confirmation about Girard. In the off chance that he's still alive, he might wish to check out why the trap was activated since it's been such it's been several decades and it's highly likely that someone other than Soon is seeking out the gates.

Kish

2009-12-16, 03:13 PM

Serini, being a halfling and longer-lived than a human and having been young when they were adventuring, is probably not dead now.

Whatever changes the idiot Girard may or may not have gone through after he set up his booby trap, he did not undo it, or send different coordinates to Soon. So he is still responsible for it.

choken1

2009-12-16, 03:19 PM

Serini, being a halfling and longer-lived than a human and having been young when they were adventuring, is probably not dead now.
I figure that Serini is dead because her home was abandoned and Xykon has her diary.

She doesn't have to have died of old age. After all, she was hunting the most dangerous beasts of the world to fill up the dungeon, holding her gate.

Whatever changes the idiot Girard may or may not have gone through after he set up his booby trap, he did not undo it, or send different coordinates to Soon. So he is still responsible for it.
That's true. Judging by how long it has been, he should have had the foresight to alter the trap where he explains why he gave Soon the wrong co-ordinates. Soon died a long long time ago and thus it was a stupid move to keep the spell in it's current state. Girard should have altered it.

... provided that he's still alive, of course.

adrejer

2009-12-16, 03:24 PM

We also know that Serini's diary has fallen into the hands of Xykon, this means one of several things.

1. Xykon stumbled across the diary at some place where Serini dropped it (Chance that Serini is still alive)
2. Xykon found Serini and killed her or otherwise incapasitated her to take the diary (an extremely slim chance of her surviving)
3. Serinis diary had somehow fallen into the hands of another part and Xykon found these people and took the diary (the reason for this third party to have the diary could be many, they could be related to her or they could have killed her and taken the diary or stumbled across the diary (see 1.))

But to my thinking the most likely senario was that Xykon found out who Lerian had traveled with, tracked Serini down (since she was still an active adventurer she was more easily found than the other members who all did their best to keep a low profile) and then killed her in the process of gaining info on the gates...

Gitman00

2009-12-16, 03:29 PM

I dunno... I think there's more to this than meets the eye. Girard was an epic-level spellcaster, yet this spell didn't even take out Roy's 12th-level ass. He can't have reasonably expected that it would kill Soon, with epic levels of d10 hit dice, and an epic-level Illusionist has far deadlier spells at his disposal. It was more a kick in the balls than an actual attempt on his life. He even said where to find the true coordinates along with informing the activator that he and Serini had been notified. It's likely he knew damn well that someone might have a very good reason for seeking the gate, and it seems he provided for that possibility.

I do think it was foolish of him to say that Serini has the coordinates, since any villain seeking the Gate now has a good lead on the true location. It's a moot point, however, since Xykon already has the information.

SoC175

2009-12-16, 03:30 PM

I was just annoyed with his actions in 694, but with this new strip, my attitude towards him immediately skyrocketed to utter hate. For me it's the exact opposite. I like him more than ever

While trying to kill someone who's supposed to be your ally, Actually it seems pretty clear that they were no longer allies as they forged the compact, if not for this last minute agreement they would have killed each other right then and there.

zql

2009-12-16, 03:39 PM

Vengeful and careless characters are far more interesting than goodies, even when they are wrong. They make hell of a story while others, by themselves, ussualy don't screw it that much to pull on a good trouble.

I like Girard just like I like Captain Ahab, suck it Mr. Ugly Fu Man Chu Paladin :smalltongue:

Bad news for the Order are often good news for us, readers.

fangthane

2009-12-16, 03:54 PM

For me it's the exact opposite. I like him more than ever

Same here. Chaotic caster with a paladin-related grudge? Perfectly credible, and despite the fact that it tends to hose the Order, it gives Girard a great deal of verisimilitude.

Because frankly if I'd gone through what he apparently has, I'd be sorely tempted to set up something like he did.

It's not really that indiscriminate either - of all the possibilities, we have the following:
Paladins (whom he hates)
Proxies of the paladins (who he despises)
Evil beings who've somehow gained information from the paladins (and thus proved the falsehood of their so-called unbreakable honor)
Good beings who've somehow gained information from the paladins.

Only the last is liable to be meaningful to him, and he had to figure that the odds of a party of screw-ups and misfits blowing up one gate and being conscripted by the chaotic offspring of his extremely-lawful ex-companion were pretty low, I'd guess. After all, he's no Oracle.

Cthclain

2009-12-16, 04:07 PM

I rather dislike him.

While this trap didn't kill the Order, and almost certainly not Soon. Though it may just have scattered them about.

Also it seems that his security so far existed for the sole purpose of antagonizing Soon. Interesting to read, but really stupid actions for someone trying to protect the world, and because of other events is making things overall worst.

Basically I think he let his emotion and impulses override his logic far too much for his own good, as well makes far too many assumptions about this companions own methods to really judge them.

Manicotti

2009-12-16, 04:09 PM

Same here. Chaotic caster with a paladin-related grudge? Perfectly credible, and despite the fact that it tends to hose the Order, it gives Girard a great deal of verisimilitude.

Because frankly if I'd gone through what he apparently has, I'd be sorely tempted to set up something like he did.

It's not really that indiscriminate either - of all the possibilities, we have the following:
Paladins (whom he hates)
Proxies of the paladins (who he despises)
Evil beings who've somehow gained information from the paladins (and thus proved the falsehood of their so-called unbreakable honor)
Good beings who've somehow gained information from the paladins.

Only the last is liable to be meaningful to him, and he had to figure that the odds of a party of screw-ups and misfits blowing up one gate and being conscripted by the chaotic offspring of his extremely-lawful ex-companion were pretty low, I'd guess. After all, he's no Oracle.

All of this. I adore Girard and probably would have done all of the same things in his place, including trying to blow up anyone who had accidentally or deliberately found my dummy location AND used the same combination of passwords.

Teddy

2009-12-16, 04:22 PM

Well, I hate the way Girard acts and I love the way that he's written. A character that so deeply believes that law leads to evil that he thinks that a lawful character will break an oath before a chaotic one does is quite an interesting personality, but not one you would like to get too close to (and I must have set some sort of world record in writing as many "that" as possible into the same sentence).

factotum

2009-12-16, 04:49 PM

But we also need to understand what state of mind he was in when he put that illusion up there.

That was 60 years ago. He hasn't changed his spell in all that time, so unless he died very shortly after creating it, "state of mind at the time" is not an excuse. Especially not when, if he's still alive, his own monitoring systems would have told him that three of the other Gates have gone...Soon's gate among them, so obviously not down to Soon and the Sapphire Guard starting their "claim the gates" campaign REALLY LATE.

Winterwind

2009-12-16, 05:13 PM

Before I pass any judgement on Girard, I first want to find out whether the gate truly is elsewhere and whether what he said in the last couple of strips is true at all.

This might just as well be the first of the long chain of illusions protecting the gate, designed to convince any intruders that the gate is completely elsewhere.

B. Dandelion

2009-12-16, 05:18 PM

I don't hate him. He's just wrong. Even if he'd been right about Soon, he still would have been bitter and paranoid, which is not a good thing. But the fact that he's wrong doesn't mean he doesn't have any genuine reasons for feeling the way that he does. Soon is the guy who launched the humanoid crusades, creating Redcloak, who later allied with Xykon, creating the mess the heroes are currently standing in. Girard is guilty of making a bad situation worse, which he should be held accountable for, but I don't get why people seem to feel that if he's not 100% perfect on everything he needs to be completely painted into the villain corner instead.

Snape was kind of a disappointment in the last book. Cadsuane irritates the hell out of me too. (I love me some Verin, though...)

OITS

2009-12-16, 05:19 PM

I am totally waiting for Girard to be teleported to the place to look for the corpse of Soon and Roy beating the crap out of him.
As a sidenote I want to add that I don't believe, Haley and Elan got hurt. It is just a feeling but I'll put my money on an only-effective-against-lawful-guys-trap. Now that this trap has (in his plan) killed who he wanted to kill, it is revealed that the gate is right there. (PLEASE!)
Otherwise I just can't imagine how this comic could go on - what should the OotS do now? Head back to the oracle? Scry on Team Evil? Scrying seems to be a good idea, but Reddie won't be so prone to standard tactics...

Ridureyu

2009-12-16, 05:35 PM

Dienekes

2009-12-16, 05:47 PM

Look, yes, he was short-sighted and yes, he was reckless and yes, he should have trusted Soon. These are givens.

But we also need to understand what state of mind he was in when he put that illusion up there.

He had recently watched his friend (or possibly more than that--we don't know) get unmade. Not killed, oh no, unmade. (We don't know if Kraagor actually was unmade, but that's what everyone thinks.) And, from little of what we know of Soon, he probably treated the whole thing like a necessary sacrifice and a business thing. (I doubt Soon actually felt nothing, but I'm certain he did his best to give that impression. Paladins are supposed to be stoic, after all.) Girard is grieving and is f****** pissed at Soon. He's not in any state to be thinking straight.

In short, I think everyone's being a little hard on him.

Yes, because grief gives people the right to set bombs off with the intent to kill someone, and not even to necessarily kill someone you think has done you harm. Oh no, grief gives you the right to set off bombs where there's a chance it might kill that guy you don't like, or might kill a group of adventurer's trying to protect the world.

Yeah, I'm not as forgiving as you apparently.

ComradeMolokov

2009-12-16, 06:10 PM

State of mind?

He put a petty grudge ahead of the safety of the entire world. State of mind doesn't excuse that.

And then there is the fact that he could not have been more wrong. His mention of the betting pool (on top of Durokan and Lirian's relationship) shows that literally EVERYONE ELSE broke their word on not communicating. Soon was the only one who kept it.

Sir_Elderberry

2009-12-16, 06:23 PM

I sympathize a ton with Girard, in the sense that I can absolutely see where he's coming from. That said, I don't agree with his measures. His "90%" bit means that he knows there's a chance it's not Soon, and in that case his actions are too much. If he'd stopped after last comic, I'd have been full-on approving of him.

The Pink Ninja

2009-12-16, 06:43 PM

When he and Soon last met they were drawing blades on each other and preparing to fight to the death.

WHAT DID YOU THINK HE WOULD DO?

SaintRidley

2009-12-16, 06:45 PM

Don't worry. If Girard is still alive, Xykon is probably going to show up, say "This diary is useful," kill Girard while he goes "Why, why?!?!!" and trap his soul in a gem. Forever.

...And yet, I wouldn't shed a tear.

Girard: You guys too? Crap.
Dorukan: Hey, don't worry, Girard.
Lirian: Yeah, you've got us to keep you company.
Girard: But I'm only here because I gave Serini the correct coordinates to my gate!
Dorukan: You... What?
Girard: Her diary fell into the hands of a lich bent on controlling the Snarl.
Lirian: All right. You're going to sit in the corner and think about what you've done.
Dorukan: Yeah, and you aren't invited to the dance party either.
Girard: :smallfrown:

doliest

2009-12-16, 06:53 PM

Water-Smurf

2009-12-16, 06:55 PM

Girard: You guys too? Crap.
Dorukan: Hey, don't worry, Girard.
Lirian: Yeah, you've got us to keep you company.
Girard: But I'm only here because I gave Serini the correct coordinates to my gate!
Dorukan: You... What?
Girard: Her diary fell into the hands of a lich bent on controlling the Snarl.
Lirian: All right. You're going to sit in the corner and think about what you've done.
Dorukan: Yeah, and you aren't invited to the dance party either.
Girard: :smallfrown:

And then Serini gets hunted down, killed, and soul-bound too.

And Soon sighs and facepalms from Celestia while trying to figure out how he'll bail his friends out this time.

Anyway, to address the whole 'he could have killed someone so he doesn't have an excuse' thing...

Yes, we know that. But it's a really slim chance that anyone else would be wandering around the biggest desert in the world, just happen to stop near the invisible-unless-you-are-using-magic-sight spell, and say those exact words, and the people in the OotS's world don't hold life as preciously as we do. There's the possibility of resurrection, and on top of that, they know about the after life and the gods and all that. To kill someone doesn't carry as many moral implications as it does in the real world.

And besides, he and Soon didn't part on the best terms. Girard's probably still sour enough to keep the spell up, or he didn't know that Soon's people would still try those coordinates so long after Soon's death.

Personally, my only hope is that he's softened a little and he's worried about his old friends (what with the whole 'three gates have been destroyed already' thing). I hate seeing companions get so estranged that they don't care when one another's hurt.

Kish

2009-12-16, 06:55 PM

....You know I find it funny that everyone assumes that if Giraad's alive that Xykon can kill him. He's now got warning that 3 gates have been destroyed and he's sitting somewhere and aware that someone stumbled on his trap. If he's half the character he seems to be,
If he's half the character he seems to be, he has a brilliant plan to shoot off his other foot, too.

Lots of people have been mysteriously convinced he's a genius ever since he said, "I don't trust authority." In the actual comic, he's never done anything that makes him appear smarter than my desk.

And, yes, even if he hadn't screwed up as epically as he has--even if he actually seemed brilliant in the comic--I would be predicting Girard's death and the destruction of his gate because his gate isn't the last gate, so, somehow, Xykon and the Order will wind up going for Kraagor's Gate.

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 06:55 PM

You hate Girard right now? How does that work, exactly? We've never actually met him before now. Just the odd quip from a flashback.

Wouldn't it be better to understand him? He might turn out be an interesting character. In fiction I recognize that there are characters I like, who I would probably despise dealing with in life. There are characters with views I disagree with, who I still find fascinating.

The thing about Girard is, he is really angry at Soon. You know, emotions, those irrational things that are so interesting in drama? How interesting would a story be if none of the characters were ever wrong? Girard blames Soon for the death of Kragor. He wants to hurt Soon, or Soon's lackeys (which the OOTS technically are - sent by Lord Shojo because they were not bound by the Oath), which explains the bomb. Not something I'd agree with, but I can understand how he'd be driven to do that, and it's interesting.

Is Girard paranoid? If he was, he was right about the Oath breach anyway. Was the explosion justified? Probably not. Do I want to see Roy stab him? Not particularly, either.

tahu88810

2009-12-16, 07:00 PM

Or at least one of them has.
Who else do you think could have trained Elan to be a Dashing Swordsman, but Girard in disguise?
That's right. Captain Julio Scoundrel is actually Girard. All the signs point to it, I mean...Elan even reminds him of his younger self. And when Girard was younger, he most likely WAS the Elan of the Order of the Scribble!

Meg

2009-12-16, 07:04 PM

Naw, Girard is more like Haley or V. I can't imagine Elan EVER giving a speech like that to anyone in the order, no matter what happened. Look at how he dealt with Kubota. He got really angry, sure, but the most he did was flounder and go "You'll never get away with this!"

Girard doesn't strike me as the dashing type, either. Maybe he used to be, but he seems pretty bitter, not like the type to go off on Indiana Jones-esque adventures.

Acero

2009-12-16, 07:04 PM

short response: no

long response: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

doliest

2009-12-16, 07:05 PM

If he's half the character he seems to be, he has a brilliant plan to shoot off his other foot, too.

Lots of people have been mysteriously convinced he's a genius ever since he said, "I don't trust authority." In the actual comic, he's never done anything that makes him appear smarter than my desk.

And, yes, even if he hadn't screwed up as epically as he has--even if he actually seemed brilliant in the comic--I would be predicting Girard's death and the destruction of his gate because his gate isn't the last gate, so, somehow, Xykon and the Order will wind up going for Kraagor's Gate.

I'm still trying to wonder why someone would think he's intelligent for the not-trusting-authority-bollocks; I'm just saying that he really did come up with the best idea; hide the gate and then do everything you can to ensure it's forgotten. To put it bluntly outside of Serini's gate every gate we've seen has some rather obvious flaw in it's defense; Dorukon built a dungeon crawl on it, included a self-destruct rune, and finally put a hole in his epic abjuration to see his Lirian. Lirian's defenses were pierced by a small goblin army, Redcloak, and a Pre-epic Xykon and finally Soon trusted that not a SINGLE paladin would ever go rogue; I'm willing to bet that given another fifty years we would have seen a high-level paladin go a little crazy and start smiting good. Atonement exists for a reason, but so does the blackguard class.

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:06 PM

tahu88810

2009-12-16, 07:07 PM

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:08 PM

Giving false information about the location of the gate seems pretty shrewd to me.
You mean, giving false information about the location of the gate to the person who would have kept it safe, and giving the real information about the location of the gate to the person who wrote it down in a diary which fell into Xykon's hands?

Why all the Girard hate?
I'm seriously considering compiling everything we readers actually know about Girard's actions and thoughts into a post and using it to start a thread.

Steward

2009-12-16, 07:13 PM

You mean, giving false information about the location of the gate to the person who would have kept it safe, and giving the real information about the location of the gate to the person who wrote it down in a diary which fell into Xykon's hands?

How could he have foreseen that? I wouldn't have believed that someone would have written down a magic spell that can destroy everything in existence. Honestly, I think that (drama and storytelling aside, of course) the OOTS world would have been better off if no one knew where or what the gates were.

GenPol

2009-12-16, 07:14 PM

I also have to disagree with you about Snape. Sure, he was a god-awful person, but I think he redeemed himself in a way... Although I agree with you about Umbridge, Binns, etc.

And while Girard is showing himself to be obnoxiously short sighted (actually just obnoxious period), I think he deserves some slack. It's clear that he has a history with Soon that is a lot more than just bigoted paladin bashing. I think we should wait until we hear the whole story before judging him too harshly. In short, I agree with Water-Smurf.

And for some reason, I doubt that Elan or Haley were hurt too badly.

Keep in mind that he did specifically say that there is a 10% possibility that the person who triggered the Gate wouldn't be Soon. Would it be to hopeful to assume that he had a plan B targeted at the 10% people?

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:15 PM

How could he have foreseen that?

He thought he could foresee exactly who would come after the gate, and why. For, "He didn't know" to be a good defense, he needs to have not acted absolutely certain that he could, and did, know exactly.

Keep in mind that he did specifically say that there is a 10% possibility that the person who triggered the Gate wouldn't be Soon. Would it be to hopeful to assume that he had a plan B targeted at the 10% people?
For after he blew them up? I would say "yes, it would be too hopeful." And since he blew up whoever was there, the fact that he verbally acknowledged a 10% chance that his explosion was hitting someone it wasn't aimed at is not a point to his favor.

(From the main comic thread)
As Doran pointed out, if Xykon were the one who had triggered this trap somehow (how would he have gotten the coordinates from Soon? Unlike some I could name, there's no indication Soon wrote them down...), he would now be saying, "Serini, eh? When I'm pulling out her toenails to learn the right coordinates, I'll be sure to tell her the agony she's experiencing is all because of you!" The truth is that Girard's booby trap is for one person: Soon. Girard verbally acknowledges that it may not be Soon there, and then he proceeds on the assumption that it is Soon, there for the worst of reasons, and no other possibility--neither the possibility that it's someone who doesn't deserve a trap, nor the possibility that it's someone who shouldn't be given the information that Serini knows the right coordinates--need be taken into account.

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:16 PM

Aside from high charisma and casting illusions, there's no reason to assume that Girard was ever anything like Elan. The only time we've seen Girard speak, most recent strips excluded, was in a flashback where he cynically mocked Soon (twice). Elan is naive and friendly, while Girard is suspicious and bitter, and I can't really see why he'd have to have transitioned from naivety to suspicion.

Similar ability does not equal same personality.

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:17 PM

Indeed. Elan is the most strongly Good member of the Order of the Stick. Girard is...different.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 07:18 PM

If he was, he was right about the Oath breach anyway.

He was?

I must have missed an update. Could you point to the strip (bonus comics and print only count) where the Oath was broken?

Thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

PS:: Isn't it odd that Girard never entertained the possibility that Soon might come to Girard asking for help?

Seems strange to me that he just presumed that the only reason Soon could possibly show up is a negative one. Heck, maybe Soon could have come crawling and begging for Girard's help.

The fact, and yes it is a fact, Girard's message never even entertains that idea says something about Girard's foresight.

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:24 PM

You mean, giving false information about the location of the gate to the person who would have kept it safe, and giving the real information about the location of the gate to the person who wrote it down in a diary which fell into Xykon's hands?

I'm seriously considering compiling everything we readers actually know about Girard's actions and thoughts into a post and using it to start a thread.
I've already come across some of your posts, and posts like it. Hence I've dug up this old account.

Here's the deal though: Girard was right. The guy Soon left in charge, Shojo, sent the OOTS to interfere with Girard's gate. Yes, Serini spilt the beans in her diary, but if Xykon got his hands on the Sapphire Guard's location, and it wasn't fake, they'd be in the same position. Girard knows his trap has been sprung, as does Serini, so we'll see what will happen.

Plus he's a fictional character, and this setback is interesting.

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:27 PM

I must have missed an update. Could you point to the strip (bonus comics and print only count) where the Oath was broken?
If you'd been able to read my last post, you'd have seen that Soon didn't break it, but Shojo, who Soon left in charge and had sworn Soon's oath, did.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html <- Panel 8.

PS:: Isn't it odd that Girard never entertained the possibility that Soon might come to Girard asking for help?

Seems strange to me that he just presumed that the only reason Soon could possibly show up is a negative one. Heck, maybe Soon could have come crawling and begging for Girard's help.

The fact, and yes it is a fact, Girard's message never even entertains that idea says something about Girard's foresight.
How about, "Girard hates Soon"? Again, you can disagree with him, but where's the sense in hating him?

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:30 PM

I've already come across some of your posts, and posts like it. Hence I've dug up this old account.

Here's the deal though: Girard was right.

About the Order of the Stick being paladins, or about Roy praying to a petting zoo?

The guy Soon left in charge, Shojo, sent the OOTS to interfere with Girard's gate.

Do you wish to enter a serious claim that if Girard knew the reason the Order was looking for him, he would consider it worth blowing them up for, and would be correct in that consideration?

'Cause if you're not saying that, then saying, "He's right, because people who got the coordinates indirectly from Soon are coming looking for his gate after Soon's, Dorukan's, and Lirian's gates have been destroyed" is a semantic dodge, and Girard is wrong factually, as well as morally. Serini's original proposal included each member of the Order of the Scribble monitoring all the Gates so that they would know if any were destroyed.

Plus he's a fictional character, and this setback is interesting.
Indeed. He's a fictional character who has blown off his foot out of sheer petty spite. I look at his actions and observe, "He's either an idiot or a monster." For some reason which I can't begin to understand, this straightforward observation about a fictional character who is not presented sympathetically seems to distress a lot of people.

I don't hate him, but if one is going to have an emotional reaction to him, hating him is one I understand. Declaring him absolutely right, declaring him a Magnificent Bastard, or taking offense that people judge him negatively, not so much.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 07:32 PM

Here's the deal though: Girard was right. The guy Soon left in charge, Shojo, sent the OOTS to interfere with Girard's gate.

And this violates the Oath how, exactly? By my reading of various comics warnings are an acceptable reason to let someone know what is up.

After all, the SG saw no reason why they couldn't investigate the destruction of Lirian's and Dorukan's Gates.

Or are you saying the SG should have just sat on their hand and not warned the other Gate Holders that somethign Big Bad and Nasty was on it's way?

Remember, Warn != Interfere. Even Lord Shojo admits that if the SG discovered CONCRETE evidence that the Gates were under threat that they would then take action. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) I maintain that action would be in the form of warning and possibly offers to help.

Face it, Girard by assumming that the only reason why Lord Soon (or company) would be at his gate would be a negative one messed up. He never entertained the possibility that people could be coming to warn him, help him, or ask help from him.

He may have had his reasons. But that doesn't excuse him.

Dacia Brabant

2009-12-16, 07:33 PM

Lord Loss

2009-12-16, 07:33 PM

Am I the only one who went

Go Girard! Woot! Show Dem Pallys! Woot! Hahaha Soon!

Yes? oh.

I quite liked this. It flamboyantly displayed Girard's cunning, slight insanity, dislike of Paladins, etc. Although it did help Xykon which is bad...

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:34 PM

About the Order of the Stick being paladins, or about Roy praying to a petting zoo?
Wishful thinking on Girard's part? He was hoping it'd be Soon (Girard hates Soon). He was expecting Soon's cronies. He didn't count on them being Northerners. Is that a huge oversight on Girard's part? No. They're cronies sent by Soon's successor to interfere with Girard's gate. Hence, by my count, Girard was right.

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:35 PM

Am I the only one who went

Go Girard! Woot! Show Dem Pallys! Woot! Hahaha Soon!

Yes? oh.

No. No, you're not.

There were still no paladins caught in the blast, though...

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:37 PM

And this violates the Oath how, exactly? By my reading of various comics warnings are an acceptable reason to let someone know what is up.
He openly disregarded Soon's oath and sent the Order in. Hence breaking it.

Regardless of whether or not the oath was a good idea in the first place. Are we on the same page?

Porthos

2009-12-16, 07:40 PM

If you'd been able to read my last post, you'd have seen that Soon didn't break it, but Shojo, who Soon left in charge and had sworn Soon's oath, did.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html <- Panel 8.

Well, he techincally isn't a Paladin, so one might see why is honor isn't as breakable. :smallwink:

Besides I thought you were more talking about Roy and co. So I retract that part of the statement.

However I would point out that none of us know the precise wording of the oath. There might very well be escape hatches invovled if they feel the Gates are under threat (see again the comic we are both linking to :smallwink:).

Until I see the precise wording of the Oath, I am hesitant to talk much further about it.

How about, "Girard hates Soon"? Again, you can disagree with him, but where's the sense in hating him?

Hating him? Why are you directing that at me? I just think he is a colossal screwup with who has the exact same character faults (self-importance, arrogance, delusions of grandure) that he sees in other people. :smalltongue:

But I never said I hated him. I did earlier say that he was acting like a prick, but that's hardly the same thing.

No, I am critizcing him for being hypocritcial, being a bad judge of character, lack of foresight. And possibly for going for disproportinate retrubition on top of it all.

But who knows? Maybe he has his reasons for all of these actions. Maybe he even is justifiied in his hatred. But that still doesn't stop me from critizing his actions. :smallamused:

EDIT::::

He openly disregarded Soon's oath and sent the Order in. Hence breaking it.

Regardless of whether or not the oath was a good idea in the first place. Are we on the same page?

Apparently we are not. As I said, Warning != Interferring.

And this is a stance I have held on the board for a loooooooooong time. So it's hardly something I just came up with today.

Mr. Cales

2009-12-16, 07:40 PM

I think what bothers me is that Girard is so blindly angry and spiteful. He's not just mad at Soon for the entire Rift thing, he's furious at Soon for being a paladin and worshiping the Twelve Gods. If his anger was just that he hated Soon personally, it'd make more sense. Boobytrapping a message that didn't even hit the people it was aimed at because you want to kill the guy you think is gonna be there is bad enough.

To do it because Girard is, effectively, a bigot, is even worse.

Snails

2009-12-16, 07:40 PM

Here's the deal though: Girard was right. The guy Soon left in charge, Shojo, sent the OOTS to interfere with Girard's gate.

The agreement included putting mechanisms in place, for the possibility that one or more gates would be destroyed. After the destruction of two Gates, was it Serini's intention that OotScribble was supposed to sit tight and hope everything turns out okay? Perhaps some paladins might interpret things that way, but I am doubtful that any other member or heir of OotScribble would take that position.

drengnikrafe

2009-12-16, 07:42 PM

I don't know about you, but usually when there's a Paladin in my party (or parties that I watch), the person playing the very chaotic character (or the very evil character) tends to be at odds with them a lot. Heck, the non-lawful good characters are at odds with them a lot. Heck, even the lawful good characters are sometimes at odds with them. Now, Girard strikes me as a pretty chaotic person.

I'm not really sure what my point is. I just know I like Girard.

Mr. Cales

2009-12-16, 07:42 PM

That title will get some answers, I wager. :smallwink:

What I mean by that is simple. Girard is a character I don't think I've ever seen before, a testament to how awesome Rich Burlew is- Girard is a bigot for Chaos and freedom, rather than for Law and order. He hates Soon and his paladins not just because of his own intense personal hatred for Soon; he hates Soon and his paladins for being paladins. By being Lawful alone, they pose a threat.

So, in essence, he's bigoted against Law. I don't think I've ever seen this character before- bigoted Lawfuls, yes, but a bigoted Chaotic? Wow.

Rich is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:44 PM

He openly disregarded Soon's oath and sent the Order in. Hence breaking it.

Regardless of whether or not the oath was a good idea in the first place. Are we on the same page?
It amuses me greatly that the only defense for Girard here seems to be ultra-lawfulness. "The Order broke what I'm assuming to be the letter of the oath! Therefore, Girard was entirely correct in ranting at them about being Soon's fascist lackeys and then blowing them up!"

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:47 PM

He's not just mad at Soon for the entire Rift thing, he's furious at Soon for being a paladin and worshiping the Twelve Gods. If his anger was just that he hated Soon personally, it'd make more sense.
Does Righteye bother you too?

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:48 PM

It amuses me greatly that the only defense for Girard here seems to be ultra-lawfulness. "The Order broke what I'm assuming to be the letter of the oath! Therefore, Girard was entirely correct in ranting at them about being Soon's fascist lackeys and then blowing them up!"

I'm just saying he was technically right, perhaps stubborn, and not stupid. I didn't say he was morally right.

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:53 PM

I'm just saying he was technically right, perhaps stubborn, and not stupid. I didn't say he was morally right.
"Soon Kim, or one of his facist(sic) paladin lackeys." He's technically right if the Order are both paladins and fascists, not otherwise. He's certainly stubborn. And he's not only stupid but imbecilic unless he truly doesn't much care who he blows up, in which case he's merely evil.

The fact that Girard goes on, in the same message, to brag about having broken the oath freely (how exactly is he supposed to have a betting pool with Serini without having any contact with her?) just emphasizes how hollow "technically right" would be if he had it.

SaintRidley

2009-12-16, 07:53 PM

There might be a chance Girard can salvage any hope of being regarded as intelligent. But given that Serini has the correct coordinates and that Xykon is incredibly likely to have them because he has her diary, I'm not sure exactly what that chance would be.

Maybe Girard somehow convinced the little halfling lady to actually not encode that piece of information in her diary. Maybe he got her to put a false set of coordinates in there. Then again, he probably didn't.

This is what happens when you try to defend something with lies and end up telling the truth. You screw yourself over. If he could have just lied to everyone he'd be fine. Honesty from an illusionist. So contradictory it can doom the world.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 07:54 PM

I'm just saying he was technically right, perhaps stubborn, and not stupid. I didn't say he was morally right.

You know, in the interests of moving the debate on a bit, I will stipulate that one can argue that the Oath has been broken (by Shojo, but no one else).

So.

What.

Girard presumes that the ONLY reason why Soon (or his fascist lackeys) would break it is a negative one (remember, he even rejects appeals to what Soon would consider a "Greater Good"). And therefore he is entitled to do whatever he feels like to the oathbreakers.

That is stupidity. For what I would hope are apparent reasons.

It may be stupidity that is explainable (thanks to anger or whatever). But just because something can be explained does not mean it should always be excused.

Or to put it another way about breaking oaths: When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do? (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes#Attributed)

B. Dandelion

2009-12-16, 07:55 PM

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 07:57 PM

I think he mainly doesn't like Soon, or anyone associated with him. Soon's attempted "heroic sacrifice" was the reason Kraagor got sealed into the rift. He hasn't forgiven him.

As for his disdain of rulers - they haven't exactly had a good track record. This comic takes place in a fantasy world roughly equivalent to the dark ages... given the social circumstances, I think his cynicism towards rulers may be valid. How great was life for the working class before figures like Marx and Ellul?

This doesn't mean that I think all political leaders are corrupt cheats... but I'm not terribly shocked when the papers expose another political scandal either.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 07:57 PM

Yes, clearly the whole Kraagor's death thing had nothing to do with why Girard hates Soon. Its because hes a paladin. Thank you for clearing that up.

Brendan

2009-12-16, 07:59 PM

Wasn't Serini Lawful? If she was qualified to take a level in paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)? He got on just fine with her. I think it's very possible he just doesn't trust authority figures, but not necessarily Lawful people in general.

She could not have been lawful. Rogues cannot be lawful. Paladins Must be lawful. She was just being loud and irritating and blathering on about her paladinic plans.

Kish

2009-12-16, 07:59 PM

She could not have been lawful. Rogues cannot be lawful.
Yes, they can. And have always been able to, in 0ed, in 1ed, in 2ed, and in 3ed.

Logalmier

2009-12-16, 08:00 PM

She could not have been lawful. Rogues cannot be lawful. Paladins Must be lawful. She was just being loud and irritating and blathering on about her paladinic plans.

Well, I agree with you on the blathering part, but rogues can be any alighnment they want. Including Lawful

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd.

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:00 PM

That title will get some answers, I wager. :smallwink:

Yes. You don't go far enough.

Girard is a chaotic bigot who just tried to kill his former paladin ally based on the completely incorrect assumptions his bigotry led him to (while his actions make it clear that he considered it okay for himself to do what he just tried to murder Soon/his paladins for doing). That last act of his was skirting closer to Chaotic evil.*

Toss arrogant and obnoxious into the mix, which is ironic since that seems to be what he associates Soon with. Log in the eye...

*not saying that one evil act turns a character evil, but if he makes a habit of this sort of thing...

The Dark Fiddler

2009-12-16, 08:00 PM

She could not have been lawful. Rogues cannot be lawful.

Rogue

Alignment:
Any.

Oh really?

Edit: Ninja'd twice, but I provided proof, so I win, right? :smallfrown:

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 08:03 PM

Like you said, Porthos, "so what?" Girard's been alerted, as has Serini. Perhaps they'll scry in and reevaluate the situation. Perhaps not.

He was smart enough to have the trap alert him.

good_lookin_gus

2009-12-16, 08:05 PM

While Rogues can be of any alignment, I think Serini's pondering only suggested that she was clueless to what it meant. Kind of like documenting the secrets of the gates.

Haven

2009-12-16, 08:05 PM

Yes, they can. And have always been able to, in 0ed, in 1ed, in 2ed, and in 3ed.

That's just factually inaccurate. They had an alignment restriction against being lawful until 3rd. Probably because they were explicitly called "thieves" until 3rd.

multilis

2009-12-16, 08:06 PM

Are we sure Girard gave *anyone* the real location? Just because he claims he did?

If he gave everyone a different wrong location, and left message for each that everyone else had right location, he could track who was breaking the deal.

Perhaps too deep of a plot twist for this story, but would fit in the mindset of a true deception artist.

Solara

2009-12-16, 08:07 PM

Wishful thinking on Girard's part? He was hoping it'd be Soon (Girard hates Soon). He was expecting Soon's cronies. He didn't count on them being Northerners. Is that a huge oversight on Girard's part? No. They're cronies sent by Soon's successor to interfere with Girard's gate. Hence, by my count, Girard was right.

Um, no they're not? Seriously, how do you interpret letting him know about Xykon and offering to help as "interfering"?

Unless you consider any sort of contact at all to be a breach of the Oath, but in that case everyone in the original party except Soon has already been oathbreaking left and right - Lirian and Dorukan, Girard himself and Serini...

But anyway, in #694 I thought he was infuriating but hilarious (though he must have high Charisma because only such a well-delivered speech/twist combo could have made up for the fact that he might have just completely stalled the story out just as it started to finally get some momentum again...) but now he's almost entering Miko territory...hell, we might actually be seeing Rich's take on the Chaotic version of blind self-righteousness and how it can be just as destructive as the Lawful kind.

Things could always change in the next few strips though...he is an illusionist after all. :)

SaintRidley

2009-12-16, 08:07 PM

Brendan

2009-12-16, 08:07 PM

Oops, i guess I was thinking of bards. Oh well.

El Chupaqueso

2009-12-16, 08:08 PM

You know, I can't remember a time we've seen Girard in this strip where he isn't going out of his way to be a jerk to Soon. I mean, he's even taking shots at Soon in the middle of Kraagor's funeral for heaven's sake.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 08:09 PM

Like you said, Porthos, "so what?" Girard's been alerted, as has Serini. Perhaps they'll scry in and reevaluate the situation. Perhaps not.

He was smart enough to have the trap alert him.

And if all he had done was insult the people who triggered the message and then been alerted, I would agree with you.

However dropping a rather large explosion on top of the heads of the people who triggered it is rather less on. It's only luck (presumably*) that they were high enough level to survive it.

That really is the key difference in all of this, I would think. It what's takes it from being a petty feud to something more dangerous.

* I say presumably because the spell might have been designed so that the blast damaged some people more than others. I take Girard at his word that the trap was supposed to be deadly on some level, at least to Soon. Perhaps it did double or triple damage to people who had Paladin levels.

So therefore it would be lucky that there were no members of the SG with Roy at the time. :smallwink:

Ridureyu

2009-12-16, 08:10 PM

I love how pretty much the only way to justify Girard is to try to claim that the Order are the TRUE villains in this story...

...And that's just what some people are doing:smallbiggrin:

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 08:10 PM

Girard is a chaotic bigot who just tried to kill his former paladin ally based on the completely incorrect assumptions his bigotry led him to (while his actions make it clear that he considered it okay for himself to do what he just tried to murder Soon/his paladins for doing). That last act of his was skirting closer to Chaotic evil.*

Unless those assumptions were correct, the spell would've been no threat to anyone. Lets not forget that the Order only went to that exact location and said the exact words that trigger the spell because Shojo didn't care about Soon's oath.

We don't know the exact details involving the hatred between Girard and Soon... we can make assumptions... it involved Kraagor's death, Girard blames Soon and believes Soon doesn't care... that sort of thing, but Girard would have to have his reasons for going that far.

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:11 PM

good_lookin_gus

2009-12-16, 08:13 PM

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 08:14 PM

However dropping a rather large explosion on top of the heads of the people who triggered it is rather less on. It's only luck (presumably*) that they were high enough level to survive it.
Girard was hoping it was Soon. He either wants Soon dead or he just wanted Soon to be caught in a dramatic "eff off" explosion. My money's on dead, but still.

I feel we both agree about what happened, but are assessing it in terms of character versus pragmatics.

GenPol

2009-12-16, 08:16 PM

Yes. You don't go far enough.

Girard is a chaotic bigot who just tried to kill his former paladin ally based on the completely incorrect assumptions his bigotry led him to (while his actions make it clear that he considered it okay for himself to do what he just tried to murder Soon/his paladins for doing). That last act of his was skirting closer to Chaotic evil.*

Toss arrogant and obnoxious into the mix, which is ironic since that seems to be what he associates Soon with. Log in the eye...

*not saying that one evil act turns a character evil, but if he makes a habit of this sort of thing...

First of all, I dunno if it was his last act. For all we know, he could still be alive. And i'll repeat, even though I have already been massively ninja'ed, that the fact that in his eyes, Soon is responsible for the death of Kraagor is probably more a motivation for his hatred of Soon, rather simply the fact that he's a paladin.

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:18 PM

Unless those assumptions were correct, the spell would've been no threat to anyone.

.......no. Just no.

Girard blames Soon and believes Soon doesn't care... that sort of thing, but Girard would have to have his reasons for going that far.

I'm sure he does. The reasons which he revealed in his rant just now, however, while they may be reasons, are not good ones. They're stupid, bigoted and evil ones.

Kish

2009-12-16, 08:18 PM

That's just factually inaccurate. They had an alignment restriction against being lawful until 3rd.

In 0ed, thieves could be Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic, as could every base class.

In 1ed, thieves could be Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Evil. I don't remember if they could be Lawful or Chaotic Evil. They could definitely be Lawful Neutral.

In 2ed, thieves could be every alignment except Lawful Good.

In 3ed, rogues can be any alignment.

Silverraptor

2009-12-16, 08:18 PM

I'm not against Girard personally. In fact, what he did never really crossed my mind at the moment on how I feel about it.

For the most part, I feel more :smalleek: because now the good guys are at a disadvantage and the world is that much closer to being unmade.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 08:19 PM

Girard was hoping it was Soon. He either wants Soon dead or he just wanted Soon to be caught in a dramatic "eff off" explosion. My money's on dead, but still.

I feel we both agree about what happened, but are assessing it in terms of character versus pragmatics.

And here is where I, ironically, have a problem.

Girard must know that Soon has tons and tons of HPs. For Roy (and co presumably) to survive the blast is an interesting conundrum. It either means that Girard really didn't mean it when he said he intended Soon to die in the blast (which I find hard to believe) or he designed it so it would specifically target some people more than others.*

But, again, just because Girard wants Soon dead doesn't mean that he is justified in wanting him dead. Really, that's all I iz saying in all of this.

Well that and that Girard is being exceedingly careless.

But that seems to be a Basic Trait of just about every single character in this world. :smalltongue:

* There's also the possibility for weakening with age or variable affect from epicenter of blast I suppose. But I think the two I mentioned above are probably the most likely.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 08:23 PM

.......no. Just no.

How am I wrong? The spell was a threat to anyone who went to the exact location Girard gave soon and said "Girard" "Soon" "gate" and "Sapphire Guard." How many people do you think wander the desert randomly saying those four words? Even the order only did it because Shojo "broke" Soon's oath (quotes since technically he didn't take the oath, but I doubt Girard would've cared. The man was connected to Soon afterall)

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 08:26 PM

But, again, just because Girard wants Soon dead doesn't mean that he is justified in wanting him dead. Really, that's all I iz saying in all of this.

Well that and that Girard is being exceedingly careless.

Never said it did, but it explains his carelessness, and sets up the scenario for the next bit of plot. I'm not a fan of revenge, morally or pragmatically, but it makes for interesting character and plot development.

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:27 PM

And here is where I, ironically, have a problem.

Girard must know that Soon has tons and tons of HPs. For Roy (and co presumably) to survive the blast is an interesting conundrum. It either means that Girard really didn't mean it when he said he intended Soon to die in the blast (which I find hard to believe) or he designed it so it would specifically target some people more than others.

Or Roy happened to make his reflex throw, much like my wizard is still trying to kill things with his fireballs even if, as it happens, they make their saves.

Or Roy actually has more hit points than Soon, being a big tough, by now pretty high level fighter rather than an admittedly very high level paladin with possible aging penalties to his Con.

Or something like that.Roy certainly has more hit points than most of the paladin minions Girard seems to have been expecting would have.

The honest illusionist

2009-12-16, 08:30 PM

How am I wrong? The spell was a threat to anyone who went to the exact location Girard gave soon and said "Girard" "Soon" "gate" and "Sapphire Guard." How many people do you think wander the desert randomly saying those four words? Even the order only did it because Shojo "broke" Soon's oath (quotes since technically he didn't take the oath, but I doubt Girard would've cared. The man was connected to Soon afterall)

Uh, he did. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html <- Panel 7.

Shojo wasn't a paladin, but he did take Soon's oath. Afterall, that's the whole point of the Sapphire Guard.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 08:33 PM

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:34 PM

How am I wrong?

Girard's basic assumption is in two parts:

a) Soon or his paladins will break their oath (Questionable to incorrect: the destruction of the Sapphire Gate seems to have laid the oath to rest, and even before that, Shojo suggests that there is an exception to the Oath if another gate is in real danger of being destroyed)
b) This will happen because Soon is a power hungry bastard rather than, say, because there is actually a good reason. (Outright wrong)

This means Girard was wrong, which means you're wrong.

Irbis

2009-12-16, 08:34 PM

And when you say, "Everyone else," you mean, "Girard and Serini"?

And you're not dead wrong if someone else is dead wrong with you?

Nope, Dorukan and Lirian also supported Girard in the (final) battle - go re-read Crayon parts of the comic.

Which (almost) certainly means Soon had it coming, as you don't call paladins 'cowardly' without good reason. Maybe it was his fault Kraagor needlessly died?

In other words: Girard owns :smallbiggrin:

Also, we only have Girard's word that Serini wouldn't trust Soon.

If she did, she was very lazy - it took her over a hundred years without her sending him real set of maps :smallamused:

In other words - nope, she didn't. But, it was a safe 'vent', so to speak - in case Soon really had good reason to seek Girard, he would be informed where to find him/someone who knows that.

I also notice that Girard said "Serini has the coordinates," not "all the others have the coordinates." Not exactly supportive of the grand conspiracy of 4/5 surviving members of the Order of the Scribble to leave Soon out.

Ever heard of little spell called 'teleport'? Party casters didn't need no maps.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 08:35 PM

but it makes for interesting character and plot development.

Well. Yes. Of course. :smalltongue: I mean, Rich has to fill out the book somehow, dunnit he?

Trust me, when I don't like the plotting (story/characterization/whatever) of the comic, I know better than to blame the characters. :smallwink:

In fact I am on record as... disagreeing... with some of the characterization of this comic because I felt it wasn't handled right (the treatment of Celia to be specific). But I know better than to blame the actual characters for the words that get put in their mouths.

So when I make arguments against characters on this board, I am not making a value judgement on how it affects the plot or not. In fact I am rahter looking forward to see how and or if Girard gets treated in the near future.

Or Roy happened to make his reflex throw, much like my wizard is still trying to kill things with his fireballs even if, as it happens, they make their saves.

Or Roy actually has more hit points than Soon, being a big tough, by now pretty high level fighter rather than an admittedly very high level paladin with possible aging penalties to his Con.

Or something like that.Roy certainly has more hit points than most of the paladin minions Girard seems to have been expecting would have.

That's all well and good for Roy. Less so for the rest of the party. Especially since there was a rather squishy wizard (who may or may not be lawful) at the epicenter of the explosion.

Kish

2009-12-16, 08:38 PM

Nope, Dorukan and Lirian also supported Girard in the (final) battle - go re-read Crayon parts of the comic.

That doesn't mean Girard said they were in the betting pool. Whether they were...

Which (almost) certainly means Soon had it coming, as you don't call paladins 'cowardly' without good reason.

Totally circular. Girard insulted him, therefore he deserved to be insulted, therefore Girard did a great thing by giving the right coordinates to Xykon and blowing up the heroes of the comic.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 08:41 PM

His assumption is that Soon or someone with some tie to Soon would come looking for his gate, which is accurate since the Order is only there because of Shojo. Its a loose tie, but when Soon and his successors have legions of paladins at their command, its a bit unexpected that they would send someone else. I honestly doubt Girard cared if Soon's gate fell or would accept Soon's assistance if he was legitimately trying to help... atleast at the time Girard made the message. The man was still angry over the Kraagor incident... might still be, too early to know.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 08:42 PM

Nope, Dorukan and Lirian also supported Girard in the (final) battle - go re-read Crayon parts of the comic.

Dorukan? Yes. Lirian? No. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) (she isn't seen in that famous panel)

For all we know she was off screen paralysed by indecsion. Not likely, but still possible.

In other words: Girard owns :smallbiggrin:

Would you (or anyone else for that matter) be saying that if Elan had died in the blast? :smallwink:

veti

2009-12-16, 08:43 PM

In 1ed, thieves could be Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Evil. I don't remember if they could be Lawful or Chaotic Evil. They could definitely be Lawful Neutral.

They could be LE or CE. The rule was that you had to have at least one of the words ("Evil", "Neutral") somewhere in your alignment definition. That ruled out only LG and, bizarrely, CG.

Girard does seem to have screwed up big time, and it's small consolation to reflect that Xykon will shortly be along to explain this to him in person.

But I don't think he's trying to kill Soon. If he had been, then why include the warning at the end of the rant? Roy survived the boom, so I'd think it's pretty well certain that Soon (with a higher base level, plus paladin saving throws) would have survived it too.

He's just making a point, and making it forcefully. Dickish, yes. Stupid? - well, hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?

Maybe the "boom" is basically a burglar alarm. Maybe that means Girard's real hideout is within sight/earshot/seismic sensor range of this spot. We'll know in good time.

Tao the Ninja

2009-12-16, 08:44 PM

She could not have been lawful. Rogues cannot be lawful. Paladins Must be lawful. She was just being loud and irritating and blathering on about her paladinic plans.

nowhere does it say rogues cant be lawful. Its uncommon to have a lawful rogue (their class is focused on sneaking/stealing) , but there aren't any rules against it. There's actually a rog/pal feat, in Complete Adventurer !think.

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:44 PM

That's all well and good for Roy. Less so for the rest of the party. Especially since there was a rather squishy wizard (who may or may not be lawful) at the epicenter of the explosion.

We'll see, I'm sure.

For all we know she was off screen paralysed by indecsion. Not likely, but still possible.

It is somewhat likely. She and Soon were the 'original team,' and in the closing the portal scene, she's the one shouting "Not until you're both clear!" Whereas Girard is the one wishing that Soon had been killed.

It seems unlikely to me that she subscribed to Girard's paladin hatred. Likely she did not pick either side.

Solara

2009-12-16, 08:47 PM

What really bugs me (besides the whole world-yet-again-in-danger-because-of-shortsighted-rashness part) is that the strength of the explosion makes it seem like it was specifically designed to wipe out Soon's 'fascist paladin lackeys' (like Lien, for example), which is even more of a **** move than trying to kill Soon himself...he even acknowledges that it's unlikely to be Soon himself there with his 'just in case'.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 08:48 PM

It seems unlikely to me that she subscribed to Girard's paladin hatred. Likely she did not pick either side.

I was thinking of something along Durkon in Comic #200. On the one hand, she probably liked Soon. On the other hand she likes Dorukan.

If you know what I mean. :smalltongue:

So I dunno. I guess I am willing to wait and see on her end.

...

Of course all of this just makes me want an B/W prequel book devoted to the Order of the Scribble even more.

It seems to have the potential to blow SoD out of the water when it comes to controversy at any rate. :smalltongue:

Gift Jeraff

2009-12-16, 08:50 PM

Anyone else thinking Girard might show us the flipside of a character like Miko? That is, a chaotic non-evil character managing to become a primary antagonist against a [mostly] non-evil party. And, like the OP said, a bigot. :smallbiggrin:

Plus, I'm sure there's a trope out there about one of the mythical heroes who saved the world before turning out to be an enemy of our heroes.

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:50 PM

His assumption is that Soon or someone with some tie to Soon would come looking for his gate, which is accurate since the Order is only there because of Shojo.

This is niggling on a lawyer-worthy level. Happily it doesn't matter, you're still wrong since a fundamental part of Girard's assumption was that Soon would be coming to take over his gate, not to help.

Kader

2009-12-16, 08:52 PM

Roy survived the boom, so I'd think it's pretty well certain that Soon (with a higher base level, plus paladin saving throws) would have survived it too.

And how about the paladin lackeys that Girard admits may also have been the triggerers? Paladin lackeys who would have had neither Roy's hit points nor Soon's saves?

Girard even acknowledges that it's more likely some low level paladins than Soon himself. Which makes it even worse.

Irbis

2009-12-16, 08:56 PM

In the actual comic, he's never done anything that makes him appear smarter than my desk.

A perfect description of Soon.

You mean, giving false information about the location of the gate to the person who would have kept it safe, and giving the real information about the location of the gate to the person who wrote it down in a diary which fell into Xykon's hands?

Because he didn't like the idea of lying to, I don't know, his friend that crush on him? :smallconfused:

Wow, he is so eeeeeevil.

In hindsight anything is clear, captain Obvious. If he gave them to Soon, his gate might very well be garrisoned by SG occupation force by now.

PS:: Isn't it odd that Girard never entertained the possibility that Soon might come to Girard asking for help?

Seems strange to me that he just presumed that the only reason Soon could possibly show up is a negative one. Heck, maybe Soon could have come crawling and begging for Girard's help.
Or are you saying the SG should have just sat on their hand and not warned the other Gate Holders that somethign Big Bad and Nasty was on it's way?

Face it, Girard by assumming that the only reason why Lord Soon (or company) would be at his gate would be a negative one messed up. He never entertained the possibility that people could be coming to warn him, help him, or ask help from him.

Because, you know, there's this little thing called Sending. As opposed to, I don't know, sending bands of armed warriors to his doorstep.

Really friendly act, don't you think?

I think what bothers me is that Girard is so blindly angry and spiteful. He's not just mad at Soon for the entire Rift thing, he's furious at Soon for being a paladin and worshiping the Twelve Gods. If his anger was just that he hated Soon personally, it'd make more sense. Boobytrapping a message that didn't even hit the people it was aimed at because you want to kill the guy you think is gonna be there is bad enough.

To do it because Girard is, effectively, a bigot, is even worse.

Cuz it is impossible to hate someone for what he stands for - indifferent zealotry and 'ends justify the means' attitude that is present in someone only due to his religion?

I know I hated Durkon for his little speech 'I'm happy Roy needlessly died' - that was really inhuman thing to do, and it pales to what the Soon did.

Indeed. He's a fictional character who has blown off his foot out of sheer petty spite. I look at his actions and observe, "He's either an idiot or a monster." For some reason which I can't begin to understand, this straightforward observation about a fictional character who is not presented sympathetically seems to distress a lot of people.

Or, you know, the man he hated was a monster. You don't call a paladin coward without reason if you're good - and you certainly aren't supported by other good people in this if your reason isn't the size of Texas.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 08:56 PM

This is niggling on a lawyer-worthy level. Happily it doesn't matter, you're still wrong since a fundamental part of Girard's assumption was that Soon would be coming to take over his gate, not to help.

Do you think Girard would care? Girard hated Soon and blamed him for Kraagor's death, would you want help from someone you believe responsible for the death of a friend of yours?

Kish

2009-12-16, 08:58 PM

Do you think Girard would care?
Nope. See "Chaotic Bigot," as the thread-starter put it. :smalltongue:

bladesyz

2009-12-16, 09:01 PM

Well, on the bright side, it'll make us feel better when Xykon roasts the guy.

veti

2009-12-16, 09:02 PM

And how about the paladin lackeys that Girard admits may also have been the triggerers? Paladin lackeys who would have had neither Roy's hit points nor Soon's saves?

Girard even acknowledges that it's more likely some low level paladins than Soon himself. Which makes it even worse.

Really, I'm reserving judgment until I see whether V and Elan survived it. If V did (in particular), then I'll conclude that the explosion and the tossing-Roy-half-a-mile-away thing are pretty much cosmetic, and what we've really seen is basically Explosive Runes, with a touch of illusion and a side helping of telekinesis to make it more dramatic.

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:08 PM

You don't call a paladin coward without reason if you're good.

I don't know where you're either getting that Girard is good or that, say, a CG person is held to an absolute standard of honesty in his insults.

It's still a circular argument.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 09:09 PM

Nope. See "Chaotic Bigot," as the thread-starter put it. :smalltongue:

Amusing, but I think it really has more to do with the whole Kraagor thing.

Irbis

2009-12-16, 09:10 PM

"Soon Kim, or one of his facist(sic) paladin lackeys." He's technically right if the Order are both paladins and fascists, not otherwise. He's certainly stubborn. And he's not only stupid but imbecilic unless he truly doesn't much care who he blows up, in which case he's merely evil.

Because there's a reeeeally good chance an armed band of high level people spouting certain phrases is something other than A) paladins B) evil guys who pried the secret off the paladins, both acceptable targets for Girard?

Pffft, I can sell you a pretty nice tower in Paris, if you believe that.

The fact that Girard goes on, in the same message, to brag about having broken the oath freely (how exactly is he supposed to have a betting pool with Serini without having any contact with her?) just emphasizes how hollow "technically right" would be if he had it.

Or, you know, she went out of her way to save Soon from becoming shish-kebab, in a way that ensured he would never find out and do something stupid?

There's no reason to make oath at all, as the rest trusted themselves, if not to try to save one zealot who might have done something heinous to piss the rest of the party off.

If the Soon broke the oath by means other than a magical e-mail, that is, by sending a small army, the chances are he isn't exactly the good guy and a little adjustment is called for. Girard just haven't accounted for Shojo's alignment, and the circumstances a century later. Booo hooo, what a poor planner he is. His spell should have contained all the scenarios up to the heat death of the universe! :smallsigh:

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:12 PM

Because there's a reeeeally good chance an armed band of high level people spouting certain phrases is something other than A) paladins B) evil guys who pried the secret off the paladins, both acceptable targets for Girard?

Where are you possibly getting this idea that Soon or his paladins are acceptable targets in anything other than Girard's twisted, bigoted worldview?

Porthos

2009-12-16, 09:14 PM

In hindsight anything is clear, captain Obvious. If he gave them to Soon, his gate might very well be garrisoned by SG occupation force by now.

Yes, because that's exactly what happened to the other gates, right?

Because, you know, there's this little thing called Sending. As opposed to, I don't know, sending bands of armed warriors to his doorstep.

Really friendly act, don't you think?

Gee, if only there was somone who knows Girard personally (or at least well enough to uniquley describe him) so they can cast the Sending spell.

You see, your little idea stops working the moment that Soon dies. Oh I suppose you can fault Soon for not leaving a detailed description of Girard behind,

But maybe that's because he actually repsected the Oath. :smallwink:

I guess it's damned if you do, and damned if you don't for the SG.

<<Snipping all the rest>>

I get the feeling that you have... issues... when it comes to Soon. :smalltongue:

Well, that's fine. Lot's of people on this board do as well. But I would remind you of something:

Two things can be equally true. It is certainly possible that Soon was a monster. It is also possible that Girard is a hypocritcal bombthrower who has his own sins to account for.

We just don't know yet.

But I do know two things:

A) The SG went out to kill anyone who threatened their Gate.

and

B) Girard just set out to kill someone who he thought would threaten his Gate.

Just something to think about. :smallwink:

Kish

2009-12-16, 09:15 PM

Girard just haven't accounted for Shojo's alignment, and the circumstances a century later. Booo hooo, what a poor planner he is.
...You are aware that Soon did not, in fact, attempt to seize Girard's Gate or any other gate, aren't you?

(name here)

2009-12-16, 09:20 PM

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Have people gotten so wrapped up in their hatred of paladins that they have forgotten why they hate them in the first place?

Put me in the hating Cadsuane camp, along with all the Aes Sedai except for Verin, Silvanna, Egwene, Moraine, and Suian. The best thing about book twelve other than Verin's big scene is them getting the smug knocked out of them. When you are more smug than the offical destined savior of the world, ruler of four entire nations and the foot-mongols, and who is personally capable of removing you from time yesterday, you have a smugness problem.

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:20 PM

Amusing, but I think it really has more to do with the whole Kraagor thing.

Beside the point. Why Girard became as he is doesn't change what he is now.

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:21 PM

When you are more smug than the offical destined savior of the world, ruler of four entire nations and the foot-mongols, and who is personally capable of removing you from time yesterday, you have a smugness problem.

When you try to kill people because they're smug*, you have an evil problem.

*noting that not all paladins are smug, and that we even have non-smug paladins in the comic.

Irbis

2009-12-16, 09:21 PM

Dorukan? Yes. Lirian? No. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) (she isn't seen in that famous panel)

For all we know she was off screen paralysed by indecsion. Not likely, but still possible.

Except for the fact she agreed with Dorukan completely and chance she would oppose him was nonexistent? At best, she would be neutral but still supportive towards him.

Would you (or anyone else for that matter) be saying that if Elan had died in the blast? :smallwink:

10 minutes later, one resurrection/raise dead more, yes, I would. Durkon is unharmed and more than willing to heal/raise any casualties.

OotS just happened to be in wrong place at the wrong time.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 09:22 PM

Girard just haven't accounted for Shojo's alignment, and the circumstances a century later. Booo hooo, what a poor planner he is. His spell should have contained all the scenarios up to the heat death of the universe! :smallsigh:

It's interesting that you bring up the "century" later bit. Isn't this spell somewhat analogus to a landmine? Albiet one that is triggered to go off when a specific set of words are used?

Now I don't know about you, but most people think that it is a tad irresponsible to leave landmines laying about when they have outlived their usefulness.

Something about warcrime or somthing like that, if memory serves. :smallwink:*

So shouldn't we fault Girard for either:

A) Not getting rid of his landmine once Soon kicked the bucket?

or

B) Setting his landmine with a timer so it would be inactive after a set amount of time?

Seems to me to be a tad... irresponsible to leave a loaded landmine set for all eternity.

Now whether or not that's something a monster would do, I will leave up to the judgement of others. :smallwink:

* OK, maybe "warcrime" is a bit on the heavy side. But leaving loaded landminds about is still kinda frowned upon in this day and age. :smalltongue:

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:23 PM

Seems to me to be a tad... irresponsible to leave a loaded landmine set for all eternity.

Under the circumstances, it's worse than a tad irresponsible to set it up at all.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 09:24 PM

So if the guy Girard holds responsible for his friend being unmade... having his soul destroyed... comes around to hang out, drink a little and watch TV, Girard shouldn't have a problem with that?

Porthos

2009-12-16, 09:25 PM

10 minutes later, one resurrection/raise dead more, yes, I would. Durkon is unharmed and more than willing to heal/raise any casualties.

OotS just happened to be in wrong place at the wrong time.

OK, wow.

...

It does underscore Rich's worrying that Death is Cheap tho. Which is why he had Roy be dead for so long. He wanted his readers not to be so blaze about the possibility of character death (see commentary in DStP).

Guess it didn't take with you. :smalltongue:

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:26 PM

So if the guy Girard holds responsible for his friend being unmade... having his soul destroyed... comes around to hang out, drink a little and watch TV, Girard shouldn't have a problem with that?
This hypothetical situation is too far away from the situation in the comic to be meaningful.

Versac

2009-12-16, 09:31 PM

And if all he had done was insult the people who triggered the message and then been alerted, I would agree with you.

However dropping a rather large explosion on top of the heads of the people who triggered it is rather less on. It's only luck (presumably*) that they were high enough level to survive it.

That really is the key difference in all of this, I would think. It what's takes it from being a petty feud to something more dangerous.

* I say presumably because the spell might have been designed so that the blast damaged some people more than others. I take Girard at his word that the trap was supposed to be deadly on some level, at least to Soon. Perhaps it did double or triple damage to people who had Paladin levels.

So therefore it would be lucky that there were no members of the SG with Roy at the time. :smallwink:

Would it be acceptable for the spell to insult Soon, alert Girard, and then occupy the activators prior to his investigation as to what set off the spell? I would assume yes. Girard was presumably capable of epic magic, which is ridiculously flexible in its effects - and a comically gigantic yet ineffective explosion would be within the realm of what I would expect from an epic chaotic caster going for nonlethal deterrence. Truth be told, all we've seen so far is that one explicitly LG fighter has taken a mild amount of damage prior to landing on apparently non damaging sand. Could Elan still be standing right next to the spell wondering where everyone disappeared to? I doubt it, but it's possible.

Let's let more than three panels go by before we declare Girard Chaotic Stupid.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 09:32 PM

Quit evading my question. Why should Girard forgive or even accept help from Soon, the man he holds responsible for Kraagor being unmade. The man who claimed "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." The man who "[doesn't] care if [his] allies fall as long as [he gets to] avenge [his] dead wife." (said by Dorukan, but Girard was on Dorukan's side against Soon at the end).

Irbis

2009-12-16, 09:33 PM

Gee, if only there was somone who knows Girard personally (or at least well enough to uniquley describe him) so they can cast the Sending spell.

Geee, if there only was a spell that, I don't know, allowed one to talk with dead... :smallamused:

You see, your little idea stops working the moment that Soon dies. Oh I suppose you can fault Soon for not leaving a detailed description of Girard behind,

It worked for 50 years. Good enough.

I get the feeling that you have... issues... when it comes to Soon. :smalltongue:

No, i just hate any prejudiced/bigoted/racist/zealot people in both RL and in stories, unless they're really good or interesting.

...You are aware that Soon did not, in fact, attempt to seize Girard's Gate or any other gate, aren't you?

And how exactly do you know that? People hating Girard seem willing to assume anything in order to still hate him.

Plus, a gate protected by mighty archwizard that would have handed Soon's ass to him =/= gate of man Soon hates, and a (slightly) weaker member of OotS, to boot.

Have people gotten so wrapped up in their hatred of paladins that they have forgotten why they hate them in the first place?

CoughBlackguardscough.

silvadel

2009-12-16, 09:34 PM

Ok -- let me say this...

The spell was probably set to kill only Soon and/or his paladins.

I mean look at it -- it seems that NOBODY in the OOTS died from the blast. If it was intended to be a raw power blast to take out someone epic, then even with the greatest luck someone would die.

Of course V (or his raven) could have bit it there -- but I would hope that we would have seen something if that had happened.

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:34 PM

Let's let more than three panels go by before we declare Girard Chaotic Stupid.

I think he's already grandly qualified for Chaotic Stupid. This is just arguing about how big of a jerk he is on top of that.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 09:36 PM

Would it be acceptable for the spell to insult Soon, alert Girard, and then occupy the activators prior to his investigation as to what set off the spell? I would assume yes. Girard was presumably capable of epic magic, which is ridiculously flexible in its effects - and a comically gigantic yet ineffective explosion would be within the realm of what I would expect from an epic chaotic caster going for nonlethal deterrence. Truth be told, all we've seen so far is that one explicitly LG fighter has taken a mild amount of damage prior to landing on apparently non damaging sand. Could Elan still be standing right next to the spell wondering where everyone disappeared to? I doubt it, but it's possible.

Yeah, sure. I'll go with that. Still rude, but Epic Level wizards can be a bit on the tetchy side, so it goes with the terrtory.

Let's let more than three panels go by before we declare Girard Chaotic Stupid.

Hey, I'm just judging Girard "say hello to your 12 Gods for me" Draketooth by his own words here. :smallwink:

Besides, this isn't really Chaotic Stupid, anyway. Hallmark of someone who sympathizes with anarchist thought? Yeah, at least a little. But it ain't exactly Chaotic Stupid yet. :smallwink:

Kish

2009-12-16, 09:37 PM

And how exactly do you know that?

Reading the comic?

People hating Girard seem willing to assume anything in order to still hate him.

I see projection.

(name here)

2009-12-16, 09:40 PM

When you try to kill people because they're smug*, you have an evil problem.

*noting that not all paladins are smug, and that we even have non-smug paladins in the comic.

You should see how smug the Aes Sedai are. It is a level of smugness that seriously nearly led to the world being destroyed, and has seriously hampered the efforts of their allies because they assume other people are too stupid to be trusted with, well, anything at all.

But actually, they were attacked for a different reason, involving a combination of their deliberate insults towards a long-ago Alexander the Great analogue, their efforts to kill him and destroy his home nation that backfired horribly, and the intervention of the AntiChrist. Along with a vaugely similar group of people on the other side of the world by the same name who were a lot more open about pathologically lying to everyone and considering everyone else their inferiors.

But yes, paladins are not universally smug, or even near-universally smug. Also, while there are legitimate reasons to dislike paladins, them breaking oaths they give is not one of them. In fact, their tendency to always tell the truth is one of the more problematic class features.

Lord Thurlvin

2009-12-16, 09:41 PM

Quit evading my question. Why should Girard forgive or even accept help from Soon, the man he holds responsible for Kraagor being made. The man who claimed "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." The man who "[doesn't] care if [his] allies fall as long as [he gets to] avenge [his] dead wife." (said by Dorukan, but Girard was on Dorukan's side against Soon at the end).

There's a big difference between not forgiving/accepting help from someone and attempting to murder them. Girard could have simply gotten his laugh in with his whole "the gate's not here" speech, but he chose to attempt to kill whoever it was that came knocking instead.

Kader

2009-12-16, 09:44 PM

Quit evading my question.

Your question as it stood was not about the comic, but about a hypothetical situation you cooked up to make Girard look better. And a ridiculous hypothetical situation at that. I see no need to answer such a question.

Why should Girard forgive or even accept help from Soon, the man he holds responsible for Kraagor being made. The man who claimed "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." The man who "[doesn't] care if [his] allies fall as long as [he gets to] avenge [his] dead wife." (said by Dorukan, but Girard was on Dorukan's side against Soon at the end).

He doesn't have to forgive him. He does have to not try to murder him, or other paladins whose only crime is doing what Soon tells them to. Especially he does have to not try to murder him without even attempting to verify his assumptions about the man's intentions beforehand.

It would be nice if Girard wasn't arrogant or obnoxious on top of that, but not absolutely required.

Mugen Nightgale

2009-12-16, 09:48 PM

I still like him. His only mistake was to trust the rogue that had a diary.

I dunno why people are so surprised at his attitude towards Soon. He hated his guts for sacrificing Kraagor. The Order is lucky he didn't Phantasmal Killed their asses.

Kish

2009-12-16, 09:48 PM

I dunno why people are so surprised at his attitude towards Soon. He hated his guts for sacrificing Kraagor. The Order is lucky he didn't Phantasmal Killed their asses.
Don't confuse not caring with not knowing. Er, I mean, don't confuse condemnation with surprise.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 09:50 PM

Geee, if there only was a spell that, I don't know, allowed one to talk with dead... :smallamused:

Is it right about this time that I point out the FAQ and how if the characters were super competent then we wouldn't have a story? :smallwink:

No, i just hate any prejudiced/bigoted/racist/zealot people in both RL and in stories, unless they're really good or interesting.

Well given the rants that Girard has already made about "petting zoos" and the like, I guess that you find Girard pretty darn interesting. :smalltongue:

Plus, a gate protected by mighty archwizard that would have handed Soon's ass to him =/= gate of man Soon hates, and a (slightly) weaker member of OotS, to boot.

How do we know that Girard was weaker than Dorukan? Anyway why wouldn't Soon take over Karrgor's gate if it is down to "weaker members" of the Order of the Scribble?

Again, funny that. :smallwink:

Can we agree that no matter how justified Girard felt about Soon at the time, he turned out to be incorrect about Soon? At least when it comes to the Gates?

Don't confuse not caring with not knowing. Er, I mean, don't confuse condemnation with surprise.

What Kish said.

..

Well not so much "condemnation" as "criticism" on my end. I am at least willing to wait and see what else was going on here before rendering final judgement.

But it's going to take an awful lot to get me to shift away from "criticizing exceedingly reckless behavior".

PS:

Along those same lines: "Don't confuse criticizing Girard with absolving Soon of his sins." :smallamused:

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 09:51 PM

Or maybe Girard did feel the need to try to avenge Kraagor by killing the man he held responsible for his death should the one responsible also turn out to be an oath-breaker.

Shale

2009-12-16, 09:54 PM

Lets not forget that the Order only went to that exact location and said the exact words that trigger the spell because Shojo didn't care about Soon's oath.

Uh....no. They went there because they had first-hand, incredibly overwhelming PROOF that the gates were under attack, and independent verification (from the Oracle) that Girard was next. Shojo violated the oath when he contracted Roy & co. to find Xykon, but that never actually mattered, because Xykon went straight for Azure City - the one Gate that the Sapphire Guard were allowed to take full initiative in protecting - and once Miko destroyed Soon's Gate, all oath-related bets were off. That's the whole reason the OotScribble agreed to install a last-ditch monitoring system in the first place, rather than just leave each person completely on their own. Apparently that possibility mattered less to Girard than holding a grudge.

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 10:05 PM

Uh....no. They went there because they had first-hand, incredibly overwhelming PROOF that the gates were under attack, and independent verification (from the Oracle) that Girard was next. Shojo violated the oath when he contracted Roy & co. to find Xykon, but that never actually mattered, because Xykon went straight for Azure City - the one Gate that the Sapphire Guard were allowed to take full initiative in protecting - and once Miko destroyed Soon's Gate, all oath-related bets were off. That's the whole reason the OotScribble agreed to install a last-ditch monitoring system in the first place, rather than just leave each person completely on their own. Apparently that possibility mattered less to Girard than holding a grudge.

They went to the desert to try to find the gate because of that. They went to those exact coordinates, the exact place the spell was, because Shojo broke the oath.

Dacia Brabant

2009-12-16, 10:05 PM

Why should Girard forgive or even accept help from Soon

Where is Soon in strip #695? Where is there a paladin in #695? Where is there an Azurite in #695? You must have better eyes than I do, because I couldn't find any who are either Soon, a Sapphire Guard or associated member of their society. All I see are the heroes of the comic getting asploded by a self-righteous whiner who didn't bother to have his facts straight.

I mean good grief, all he needed was a contingency on his Permanent Illusion to activate a scrying spell so he'd be able to see whether or not he should set off his trap. Pretty simple for an epic level caster, but then Girard's probably a Sorcerer so Int would be his dump stat.

Or maybe Girard did feel the need to try to avenge Kraagor by killing the man he held responsible for his death should the one responsible also turn out to be an oath-breaker.

He should've assassinated him then, rather than pull a passive-aggressive stunt like this. A stunt that only ended up harming people who aren't Soon/Sapphire Guard and who are trying to stop an existential threat like Xykon, who's already been party to destroying three out of five gates.

Edit: And remember, Dorukon--one of the Scribblers who was going to fight it out with Soon at the end--did put a warning beacon in to let the Sapphire Guard find out his gate had been destroyed, so with THREE gates destroyed it stands to reason the oath has long lost its importance. (And it was a stupid oath anyway, one that's caused nothing but harm. Even Redcloak got that.)

Hate on Soon and the pallies all you like, but that doesn't change the facts of the matter at hand.

Shale

2009-12-16, 10:07 PM

They went to the desert to try to find the gate because of that. They went to those exact coordinates, the exact place the spell was, because Shojo broke the oath.

So...what, where would Hinjo have sent them? Abu Dhabi? He had the same information Shojo did.

Kader

2009-12-16, 10:07 PM

Or maybe Girard did feel the need to try to avenge Kraagor by killing the man he held responsible for his death should the one responsible also turn out to be an oath-breaker.

...well yeah. Thus today's comic, and all.

Kish

2009-12-16, 10:09 PM

Clearly, Girard is blameless and the fault accrues to the Order for going to the coordinates he gave Soon.

Kader

2009-12-16, 10:14 PM

They went to the desert to try to find the gate because of that. They went to those exact coordinates, the exact place the spell was, because Shojo broke the oath.

Factually incorrect. Hinjo is the guy in charge when the Order is sent to Girard's Gate, and Hinjo explicitly notes that the oath is dissolved by that point.

Connington

2009-12-16, 10:15 PM

They went to the desert to try to find the gate because of that. They went to those exact coordinates, the exact place the spell was, because Shojo broke the oath.

As has been repeatedly noted, once the gate was destroyed, they were free from that oath. Girard basically left a landmine lying, on the assumption that Soon would be the most likely one to trigger it, and do so under circumstances that Girard wouldn't like. Justifying his actions requires nearly sociopathic disregard for the sheer number of people that could kill (low level paladins and adventurers mostly)

TheSummoner

2009-12-16, 10:16 PM

Clearly, Girard is blameless and the fault accrues to the Order for going to the coordinates he gave Soon.

Accidents happen =P

But to be serious... If none of you are willing to even try to see things from Girard's point of view, then you have no hope of coming up with a plausable explanation for why he did what he did. All that leaves you with is a giant discussion about how "that guy sucks" making this pretty much an exercise in futility.

Was it right to try to blow up Soon? Girard must've thought it was. Why would Girard think that? All signs point to Kraagor. Is it right that the Order took the blow? No, but that was unintentional. They were a wildcard that would've been impossible to predict. The conditions for triggering the spell were incredibly specific making it unlikely that anyone who WASN'T connected with Soon in some way triggering it. The Order does have some connection with Soon, in that they got the coordinates from his successor.

Connington

2009-12-16, 10:22 PM

No one's arguing that Girard's behaving like a jerk for no reason. Rich is a good author, and he gave Girard very plausible motives. But while that might make Girard sympathetic (depending on whether you were amused by his speech) it doesn't make him right, in the factual sense (Neither Soon nor the Sapphire Guard broke the oath) or in a moral one (You don't get to kill someone, or inflict bodily harm on them, because they caused an accident that resulted in fatalities).

Kish

2009-12-16, 10:22 PM

Accidents happen =P

But to be serious... If none of you are willing to even try to see things from Girard's point of view, then you have no hope of coming up with a plausable explanation for why he did what he did.

I have a perfectly plausible explanation for why Girard did what he did. And you seemed chagrined to have predicted, wrongly, that he would go on to address the 10% chance of it not being Soon or "one of his fascist paladin lackeys," for all of one post. Stupidity and callousness are both perfectly plausible explanation for the deathtrap he set...for Soon...verbally acknowledging, but not actually caring, that it well might not be Soon who was about to get blasted by it. They're only not plausible if you're bound and determined to make Girard a hero despite his actions.

Porthos

2009-12-16, 10:23 PM

Accidents happen =P

But to be serious... If none of you are willing to even try to see things from Girard's point of view...

Who here on the board isn't seeing things from Girard's POV?

It seems to me that most of the people criticizing Girard can see his POV.

They. Just. Disagree. With. It.

Or at the very least they point out that Girard horribly misjudged Soon. :smallwink:

The conditions for triggering the spell were incredibly specific making it unlikely that anyone who WASN'T connected with Soon in some way triggering it.

True enough. Too bad that the maker of the spell never took into account that the people triggering it might honestly be trying to help him. :smallwink:

====

Let me put this another way. I would say that the vast majority of the board has absolutely no problem with seeing the world from Redcloak's POV. But, strangely enuf, most of the board (and, yes, I do mean most :smalltongue:) disagrees with the actions that Redcloak has taken.

It is entirely possible to see why someone would do something and still criticize it.

Also, before that arrow is pulled, I will also say what I said in another thread (following up on Kish's comment over there):

Don't confuse criticizing Girard with absolving Soon. :smallamused:

Kader

2009-12-16, 10:31 PM

You seem determined to read Girard in the best possible light even when there's evidence to the contrary, Summoner.

Accidents happen =P

But to be serious... If none of you are willing to even try to see things from Girard's point of view, then you have no hope of coming up with a plausable explanation for why he did what he did.

I can see it from Girard's point of view, that does nothing to make Girard's point of view the right one.

Was it right to try to blow up Soon? Girard must've thought it was.

But Girard was wrong. You seem to be missing this point.

The conditions for triggering the spell were incredibly specific making it unlikely that anyone who WASN'T connected with Soon in some way triggering it. The Order does have some connection with Soon, in that they got the coordinates from his successor.

That doesn't make it okay. Girard himself thinks that he's more likely to be talking to other paladins who happen to be from Soon's order than Soon himself, and this does not stop him from attempting to kill whoever is listening. For something they didn't do and weren't even present for. He's willing to risk the greater likelihood of killing a number of people completely innocent of Kraagor's death for the possibility of hurting Soon. This makes him something I cannot say on these forums without it being censored.

Conuly

2009-12-16, 10:39 PM

But Girard was wrong. You seem to be missing this point.

Yes, he misjudged Soon. But he didn't make his views of Soon out of nowhere, he had SOME basis for them! Dorukan had SOME reason for fighting with Soon as well, Serini has had SOME reason for not going behind Girard's back and giving Soon the real coordinates - and for not telling Soon the coordinates when he goes begging, as Girard thinks he will. What do you think, that they came to these views from nowhere? Somehow, somewhere, Soon did something to lose their trust. I don't know what. None of us does. And maybe Soon did right when he did that, and maybe he did wrong, but we don't have enough information to decide yet.

Girard himself thinks that he's more likely to be talking to other paladins who happen to be from Soon's order than Soon himself, and this does not stop him from attempting to kill whoever is listening. For something they didn't do and weren't even present for. He's willing to risk the greater likelihood of killing a number of people completely innocent of Kraagor's death for the possibility of hurting Soon.

Girard thinks the paladins are fascist thugs. You say "Sapphire Guard", he hears "Gestapo". Given some of the things we *know* they've done, maybe he has a point. We don't know. He didn't form this opinion just to be pissy, of course - he has to have had a *reason* he thought of them the way he did. And again, maybe it's a good reason, maybe it's a bad reason. Maybe it's a good reason based upon a flawed understanding of them - who knows? We certainly don't.

Pooka

2009-12-16, 10:42 PM

Hmm... I stand corrected. Of course, that only strengthens the oath being broken for the Order to be there thing...

(Guess I assumed the not a paladin and didn't take the oath thing went hand in hand or something...)

As I understand it (and I'm too lazy at the moment to go check the relevant comic) the Oath only applies so long as the gates aren't directly endangered (that's why there's an alarm system).

Girard is a fool for assuming that Soon, or someone connected to Soon, would never have a legitimate reason to come to his gate, which is what has happened.

Kader

2009-12-16, 10:50 PM

a lot of stuff about reasons

Girard's own words make clear that his reasons for (mis)judging Soon are a combination of him blaming Soon for Kraagor's death with him being a chaotic-bigot in general. There's no "we don't know," Girard says as much.

NYYanks6083

2009-12-16, 11:09 PM

I have to agree with Kish and Kader on this one,

Just because you think you have a reason doesn't make it a valid reason. Miko thought she had a reason for killing Shojo:smalltongue:

and no, Girard isn't obligated to personally forgive Soon, but he IS obligated to put his personal differences aside if, as it was once called, a god-killing terror is about to be freed to chow down on reality like a fat kid on a Big Mac:smalltongue:.

Given that if Soon or one of his paladins is at Girard's Gate, this is definitely a possibility, Girard's need for revenge could end up interfering with something far greater than their personal vendetta.

And about the paladin. Girard has no idea whether Soon came in person or if he sent an emissary. That trap could have killed someone that was just following orders who had nothing to do with his personal issues with Soon. Yes Roy survived, but Roy is above level 10, and looks fairly wounded in the last panel(admittedly my opinion). It would be quite easy for a lower level paladin to not fair so well.

Also, Girard's assumption seems somewhat misguided. Though Soon certainly had his faults, Soon is a PALADIN, the whole "breaking an Oath" thing is usually not their style, infact, quite the opposite. Paladins are famous for honoring agreements and keeping their word, as Soon indeed did.

Dacia Brabant

2009-12-16, 11:29 PM

How long exactly would you all say that Soon has been dead? 60 years? 70 years? More? And he wasn't exactly youthful when he died (looked to be somewhere around 80 when he handed over command of the Sapphire Guard) nor was he ancient when the Scribble ended their adventuring.

So, given that we're maybe looking at 100+ years between the breakup of the Scribble and the present day: Why hasn't Girard ever gone back and updated his message?

MReav

2009-12-16, 11:35 PM

How long exactly would you all say that Soon has been dead? 60 years? 70 years? More? And he wasn't exactly youthful when he died (looked to be somewhere around 80 when he handed over command of the Sapphire Guard) nor was he ancient when the Scribble ended their adventuring.

Shojo stated that everything started about 66 years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). I think Soon likely died about 50-60 years ago.

Dacia Brabant

2009-12-16, 11:51 PM

Shojo stated that everything started about 66 years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). I think Soon likely died about 50-60 years ago.

Ah I must have missed that, thanks.

And even at 66 years ago, it's still extremely unlikely that Soon, a normal human, could've still been alive. Girard, if he's still alive, should know that and, if he were thinking rationally he would've gone back and amended his message to something a little less-motivated by shortsighted rage against a dead man.

But he didn't, so to my mind he's either long dead too, or crazy.

Snails

2009-12-17, 12:21 AM

I am not going to suggest that Girard is the world's worst jerk; I really do not know. But Girard knew perfectly well there were plausible circumstances that were both legitimate by the letter of the oath and required by the spirit of the oath under which Soon or friend's of Soon might come knocking.

Girard made the wild guess Soon would break his vow long before any other consideration mattered. Girard probably went to his grave with several decades of evidence he vastly underestimated Soon, but he decided to not lift a finger to amend his questionable actions.

This trap should absolutely be judged an evil act. I feel no strong opinion about whether such tells us anything decisive about Girard overall, as it is not actually forbidden for Good aligned characters to ever to anything evil, and we can see there were peculiar circumstances and back history.

SadisticFishing

2009-12-17, 12:22 AM

It didn't kill Roy. It wasn't meant to kill Soon.

Quorothorn

2009-12-17, 12:29 AM

Goodness this thread got big whilst I was at class.

You should see how smug the Aes Sedai are. It is a level of smugness that seriously nearly led to the world being destroyed, and has seriously hampered the efforts of their allies because they assume other people are too stupid to be trusted with, well, anything at all.

But actually, they were attacked for a different reason, involving a combination of their deliberate insults towards a long-ago Alexander the Great analogue, their efforts to kill him and destroy his home nation that backfired horribly, and the intervention of the AntiChrist. Along with a vaugely similar group of people on the other side of the world by the same name who were a lot more open about pathologically lying to everyone and considering everyone else their inferiors.

Technically he was a King Arthur type more than anything (his name's "Artur Hawkwing", after all, not to mention his sword Justice).

Anyway, personally I'm hoping for some big changes in the Aes Sedai training regime and general way of doing things. Though even with their lousy system they've still managed to occasionally produce some good ones (Moiraine, VERIN).

Am I the only one who went

Go Girard! Woot! Show Dem Pallys! Woot! Hahaha Soon!

Yes? oh.

I quite liked this. It flamboyantly displayed Girard's cunning, slight insanity, dislike of Paladins, etc. Although it did help Xykon which is bad...

...How is it showing "Dem Pallys" when there were NO PALADINS THERE?! Given that, y'know, all but like four died fighting an inhuman monster at their own Gate, having never come within a thousand miles of Girard's?

Also, not very cunning of him to be so comprehensively WRONG.

Kader

2009-12-17, 12:38 AM

It didn't kill Roy. It wasn't meant to kill Soon.

Girard outright says it's meant to kill him. Now, I suppose if you are desperate to read it as a non-evil action, you could claim he's lying, but that still does nothing about the problem of the paladin flunkies who are going to have a lot less hp.

And young, big, tough high-Con fighter vs elderly paladin with large aging penalties to his Con score? I'm not convinced that Soon would have been much tougher than Roy, his age and probably lower base Con can easily cancel his higher level.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 12:45 AM

We don't know all the facts about what happened. Why is everybody so quick to assume Girard is an angry self Righteous bigot When all we know of the order of the scribble is that they broke up due to being angry at each other. We don't even know how true the gate story was as others have mentioned.

please. Hold off on the Judgement until we know a little more about the situation.

Keep in mind as well. The trap could just have been for Show. If it didn't kill Roy it wouldn't have killed Soon. If it wouldn't have killed Soon there was little point in putting it there other than humiliation which is a lot more likely.

Kader

2009-12-17, 12:48 AM

Keep in mind as well. The trap could just have been for Show. If it didn't kill Roy it wouldn't have killed Soon. If it wouldn't have killed Soon there was little point in putting it there other than humiliation which is a lot more likely.

From another thread:

Girard outright says the trap is meant to kill Soon. Now, I suppose if you are desperate to read it as a non-evil action, you could claim he's lying, but that still does nothing about the problem of the low-level paladins of the Sapphire Guard, who are going to have a lot less hp.

And young, big, tough high-Con fighter vs elderly paladin with large aging penalties to his Con score? I'm not convinced that Soon would have been much tougher than Roy, his age and probably lower base Con can easily cancel his higher level.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 12:50 AM

Yogi

2009-12-17, 12:51 AM

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 12:52 AM

Like I said. It was most likely for humiliation not murder. Especially if it doesn't kill Vaarsuvious. And him being a Paladin doesn't make him a paragon of ultimate good. Otherwise Miko wouldn't have been wrong when she killed Shojo

B. Dandelion

2009-12-17, 12:53 AM

Ah I must have missed that, thanks.

And even at 66 years ago, it's still extremely unlikely that Soon, a normal human, could've still been alive. Girard, if he's still alive, should know that and, if he were thinking rationally he would've gone back and amended his message to something a little less-motivated by shortsighted rage against a dead man.

But he didn't, so to my mind he's either long dead too, or crazy.

I'm starting to wonder about that, too -- most people are assuming he's still alive, since Roy did, and that he never took down the trap out of negligence and/or spite. But what if he's been dead (or otherwise incapacitated) all this time? It's pretty plain that he set up the trap while still deeply in the throes of anger and grief. Maybe he's just the type to never get over things, but I would think the idea that he just died before common sense had a chance to catch up with him has at least as much validity as the notion that he maintained that level of hate for that long, and didn't bother to diffuse his trap even after the single person he wanted to target with it had to be long dead.

Kader

2009-12-17, 12:54 AM

There's little chance an epic Paladin doesn't have at least as much HP as a possibly 13th (I believe they say in the geekery thread it's around there) level fighter.

My only point is that we should not be automatically assuming that because Roy survived the trap it cannot possibly have killed Soon. I don't know if the trap would have killed Soon, but it isn't certain that it wouldn't have.

Especially since Girard's estimated time was less than twelve weeks after they made the oath.

Soon died of old age probably not more than eight or nine years after the party broke up, according to the timeline Shojo gives us in the flashback. Aging penalties are quite harsh on the hit points.

Shale

2009-12-17, 12:55 AM

Girard considered the possibility that Soon, or one of his descendants, would genuinely need to find Girard's gate, either to defend it or to report the destruction of Soon's Gate, or both, and decided it was more important to nurse his grudge against one elderly paladin than to make sure that somebody in that position - which the entire Order deemed enough of a risk to require a monitoring system on all the gates - could continue saving the world.

So no, not letting up on him.

Yogi

2009-12-17, 12:55 AM

There's little chance an epic Paladin doesn't have at least as much HP as a possibly 13th (I believe they say in the geekery thread it's around there) level fighter. Especially since Girard's estimated time was less than twelve weeks after they made the oath.
. . . you are at least 90% likely to be Soon Kim or his fascist Paladin Lackeys.So it's not just aimed at Soon, it's also aimed at any Paladins who associate with Soon, and possibly their low level squires and assistants as well.

MReav

2009-12-17, 12:55 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Why does everyone assume that this is the only thing that's going to try and kill Soon and whoever was with him?

Kish

2009-12-17, 12:56 AM

Lots and lots of people defend Girard, with long implausible argument chains. "Well...they wouldn't be there if they hadn't gotten the coordinates from Soon, so Girard is right to blow them up!"

He is obviously angry; look at that scowl. He is obviously self-righteous; listen to his insults to the hundreds-of-miles-away, dead, and innocent of what he's blowing them up for. He is obviously a bigot; see what he says about the Twelve Gods. Three for three.

I may quit the field when I think it's not worth continuing to argue the point--after all, Girard is likely to receive exactly the fate he deserves from Xykon. But I will not do so because you would rather not read the observation that Girard is either an idiot or a monster, or because you consider, "I'm going to blast whoever you are--there's a 10% chance I don't know who it is, and, all these years later, a 100% chance I was wrong about Soon coming within twelve weeks, but I'd rather it was Soon there for the worst of reasons, so I'm going with that theory! BOOM! By the way, if you're a villain who survived that, Serini has the information you want!" flimsy evidence of malice and/or stupidity. If you want the arguments that grip the forum to die down, picking a side and jumping in with both feet was not the optimal approach.

good_lookin_gus

2009-12-17, 12:57 AM

And young, big, tough high-Con fighter vs elderly paladin with large aging penalties to his Con score? I'm not convinced that Soon would have been much tougher than Roy, his age and probably lower base Con can easily cancel his higher level.

If the dice fall right, sure. But Soon is 8(?) levels higher and aging penalties only go up to -6. Also, the spell was placed within 12 weeks of the split.

Callista

2009-12-17, 12:57 AM

We'll have to see what happens to Elan and Haley. If they're as injured as Roy, but no more, then the spell could easily have been designed to take off a specific percent of the HP of anyone in the radius.

Anyway, the OP's right. We don't know enough to tell whether Girard's justified or not. There's got to be more to it than we know.

It could also have been something done in the heat of the moment. If Girard set that trap while he was still angry at Kraagor's death, then it's likely enough that he wasn't thinking quite straight.

Kallisti

2009-12-17, 12:58 AM

I'm sorry, but I've got to say that an explosion that merits a mushroom cloud is probably enough to kill or seriously injure Soon, or especially his "fascist paladin lackeys." Yes, considering that Girard is the tricksy epic illusionist it's possible that it's a trick of some sort. Doesn't seem too likely, though, considering that the trap was at the coordinates Girard gave Soon for the gate.

We don't know why Girard is setting up a trap to kill Soon, though. Maybe he's not an evil bastard. He could be doing it for a complex reason, considering that Rich has a habit of giving his characters a little depth. Or maybe it really is simple resentment. Either way, it's kind of sad. But still attempted murder.

...that sounds a little less coherent in writing than it did in my head. I should not type when I'm this tired...

Kish

2009-12-17, 12:59 AM

Anyway, the OP's right. We don't know enough to tell whether Girard's justified or not. There's got to be more to it than we know.

Why?

It could also have been something done in the heat of the moment. If Girard set that trap while he was still angry at Kraagor's death, then it's likely enough that he wasn't thinking quite straight.
And he didn't choose to disarm it, at any subsequent point.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:02 AM

And he didn't choose to disarm it, at any subsequent point.

isn't it entirely possible that he couldn't find it again?

Kish

2009-12-17, 01:05 AM

isn't it entirely possible that he couldn't find it again?
Are you attempting to argue that Girard is not as stupid as he looks--he's even stupider?

If he set a deathtrap and lost it, aside from the implications of that, he could have disarmed it--mostly--by sending Soon different coordinates. He didn't choose to do that, either. He chose to leave the trap active for years after he had lost the bet to Serini that Soon would break the oath within twelve weeks.

Renegade Paladin

2009-12-17, 01:06 AM

Soon died of old age probably not more than eight or nine years after the party broke up, according to the timeline Shojo gives us in the flashback. Aging penalties are quite harsh on the hit points.
Unless Soon was significantly older than the other human members of the party, I find that short a time frame unlikely. Dorukan was still alive not long prior to the current point in the comic's timeline, and Girard looks fairly young (as far as you can judge such things in a stick figure, of course) in the illusion.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:08 AM

Are you attempting to argue that Girard is not as stupid as he looks--he's even stupider?

If he set a deathtrap and lost it, aside from the implications of that, he could have disarmed it--mostly--by sending Soon different coordinates. He didn't choose to do that, either. He chose to leave the trap active for years after he had lost the bet to Serini that Soon would break the oath within twelve weeks.

No I'm Attempting to argue that Shifting desert sands make it rather hard to find a place you rolled to determine and no longer have the coordinates to.I especially doubt he has them in his head still if he forgave Soon which would have probably taken several years. Soon and Girard likely had no reason to contact each other after the breakup of the order and they promised they'd leave each other alone. And really does asking Soon "oh I need to know the coordinates to that gate again. mind telling me where it is?" sound like a remotely good idea?

Shale

2009-12-17, 01:09 AM

Soon was significantly older. He turned over control of the Sapphire Guard to Shojo's father when Shojo was still a child because he was too old to effectively lead the paladins anymore. It's been a long time since Shojo was a child.

Edit:

No I'm Attempting to argue that Shifting desert sands make it rather hard to find a place you rolled to determine and no longer have the coordinates to. Soon and Girard likely had no reason to contact each other after the breakup of the order and they promised they'd leave each other alone. And really does asking Soon "oh I need to know the coordinates to that gate again. mind telling me where it is?" sound like a remotely good idea?

Why on earth wouldn't he keep the coordinates? Other than incredible stupidity, because that doesn't help your case.

Kader

2009-12-17, 01:09 AM

If the dice fall right, sure. But Soon is 8(?) levels higher and aging penalties only go up to -6. Also, the spell was placed within 12 weeks of the split.

Soon almost certainly didn't die more than ten years after the split, probably somewhat less. So he's pretty old.

Soon's level is unclear, but let's say eight higher for speculation, and that Roy is 13th level. That makes Soon 21st.

According to the class and level geekery the best guess at Roy's Con score is 16-ish. I'll go with that.

That gives hit points of 13d10+39 for Roy, or (with max 1st level), 115 hit points on average. Seems a bit on the low side but w/e, his fault for not picking up a Con boosting item.

For Soon, let's use the elite ability array since we really have no clue otherwise. That'd give him something like 14/10/13/8/12/15 for abilities if he distributes them according to what a 3.5 paladin needs. 13 base Con. Take that down to 7 for venerability and he's got a -2 Con penalty, so,

21d10-42, 78 hit points on average.

Which means you could even give him a 4 points higher Con score or item and he's still only roughly even with Roy, and even with a +6 item he's only about 25 hit points higher. At that point a failed or passed reflex save could mean the difference between Roy surviving and Soon dying.

Now I'm not going to argue that all of this is solid, it hardly is. But I've seen a lot of people say that the trap cannot possibly have killed Soon if it did not kill Roy, and this should at least demonstrate that there is a good possibility that Soon could have been killed.

MReav

2009-12-17, 01:12 AM

Actually, can you please point out the quote where someone DID assume that? More importantly, how is that relevant at all?

Keep in mind as well. The trap could just have been for Show. If it didn't kill Roy it wouldn't have killed Soon. If it wouldn't have killed Soon there was little point in putting it there other than humiliation which is a lot more likely.

People are saying that an explosion that doesn't kill Roy couldn't be enough to kill an epic level paladin, and that this may be effectively an epic-level prank. I am pointing out that there is a chance that this may have just been the warm-up. There may be more explosions, or monsters, or mercenaries, or magical traps, or whatever else Girard has set up.

As for why it wasn't potent enough to outright kill Soon? Epic Spells take time to research and cast. He seemed to be under a time crunch to get it there in under 12 weeks.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:13 AM

Why on earth wouldn't he keep the coordinates? Other than incredible stupidity, because that doesn't help your case.

why on Earth would he seems to be the real question. What incentive did he have to ever go back there? If he blames Soon for Kraagor's death he wouldn't have forgiven the guy for years. Also it would not have killed Soon. Considering even at that age he was fighting Deity killing abominations that can unmake you and also killed enough monsters to make it to epic level he should have had more than enough HP to survive

Kish

2009-12-17, 01:13 AM

No I'm Attempting to argue that Shifting desert sands make it rather hard to find a place you rolled to determine and no longer have the coordinates to.

And you're arguing that he didn't keep them. In other words: Even stupider than he looks.

And really does asking Soon "oh I need to know the coordinates to that gate again. mind telling me where it is?" sound like a remotely good idea?
If Girard were not either an idiot or a monster, disabling his booby trap would be a moral obligation, and his embarrassment in doing what he had to do to do so unimportant. Since he is, I'll just point out that, as I said in the post you're responding to, he could have mostly disarmed it by telling Soon, "Actually, these are the coordinates of my gate." The coordinates he gave Soon could be the real ones, if Girard wanted to pretend he had more than one brain cell, or they could be more fake ones, without the explosion.

Shale

2009-12-17, 01:15 AM

why on Earth would he seems to be the real question. What incentive did he have to ever go back there?

20,000 gold pieces. How would he be able to prove Soon had come calling, and thus collect on his bet, if he wasn't monitoring the place?

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:15 AM

And you're arguing that he didn't keep them. In other words: Even stupider than he looks.
.

why does it make him stupid to not keep a set of fake coordinates?

SaintRidley

2009-12-17, 01:16 AM

He is obviously a bigot; see what he says about the Twelve Gods.

Only one I'd take issue with. He hates Soon. It's entirely likely that he doesn't give a damn at all about the Twelve Gods and is only insulting them because he knows it would piss Soon off. And even if he is picking on them for reasons unrelated to Soon...

A) They're gods. I'm pretty sure they can handle being insulted by a mortal.

B) He probably has his own gods he feels it is not illogical to pray to (the Western gods - Marduk, Tiamat, etc.). That's just how things go. People believe their god is the right god and all other gods are utterly irrational.

Eh. From my standpoint, the thing to pick on Girard about is being stupid enough to trust someone with the location of his gate when his method for protecting the gate seems to revolve around LYING! You don't sabotage your defence by actively working against it in such a mind-numbingly obvious way.

Kish

2009-12-17, 01:16 AM

why does it make him stupid to not keep a set of fake coordinates?
...Because there's a deadly booby trap at them?

"Oh, yeah, I had a nuke once. I left it. Somewhere. Where? Why ever would I bother to remember that?"

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:18 AM

...Because there's a deadly booby trap at them?

"Oh, yeah, I had a nuke once. I left it. Somewhere. Where? Why ever would I bother to remember that?"

:smallsigh: This is hardly a nuke. In fact it seems to be mostly flash.

I'll say it again. If it doesn't kill V (which I guarentee you it won't) it wouldn't have killed Soon.

Porthos

2009-12-17, 01:19 AM

isn't it entirely possible that he couldn't find it again?

Hopefully he would feel a little remorseful about that. Coz it doesn't exactly speak in his favor if he actually lost a landmine. :smallwink:

As for Roy surviving, as I said in another thread, it's a conundrum. On the one hand you have Girard's message explicitly saying that should be powerful enough to take out Soon.

On the other, you see Roy surviving who probably has less HP than Soon. Empahsis on the probably.

Now there are several "outs" to this, including targetted damage. But on first blush it does look at least a little bad on Girard's end. Especially if it had been a bunch of mid-level Paladins, as opposed to High Level people like Roy or Soon.

That's the kicker for me. Girard seems to think that this won't be directly targetting Soon (it's more a hope than anything else). So he is explicitly trying to damage people who have no real beef with him. And all because he thinks that the only reason why the SG would show up is an invasion force.

See, what he could have done is had a spell to knock them all unconsious and then interrogate them at his lesiure. Or he could have just teleported them away. Or he could have programmed them with amnesia.

He could have done a dozen different things. But he decided to drop a bomb on them that may or may not have been designed to be fatal.

Sorry, but I gots to be at least a little judgemental here. :smalltongue:

...

All that being said, as I have said in another thread, I am willing to wait and see before passing final judgement on the dude. Maybe he's got a great reason for what he did.

.
.
.
Then again, maybe he doesn't. :smalltongue: Time will tell, as the saying goes.

I'll say it again. If it doesn't kill V (which I guarentee you it won't) it wouldn't have killed Soon.

No... But it could killed the mid-range Paladins he was expecting. :smallwink:

Kader

2009-12-17, 01:20 AM

Unless Soon was significantly older than the other human members of the party, I find that short a time frame unlikely.

As Shale said, Soon was significantly older than everyone else (everyone human at least...) in the party. He was likely either venerable or just about to cross from old to venerable when the party broke up, examining Shojo's story and the dates within it.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:21 AM

Sorry, but I gots to be at least a little judgemental here. :smalltongue:

Okay. be Judgemental. Just don't automatically assume the worst of the guy.

Yogi

2009-12-17, 01:22 AM

:smallsigh: This is hardly a nuke. In fact it seems to be mostly flash.

I'll say it again. If it doesn't kill V (which I guarentee you it won't) it wouldn't have killed Soon.And you'll keep saying it again because you ignore all posts that address this point (see above).

Porthos

2009-12-17, 01:23 AM

Okay. be Judgemental. Just don't automatically assume the worst of the guy.

Please note in all of my postings that I actually haven't.

Or to be more accurate, I can be a lot worse when castigating characters. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:29 AM

Please note in all of my postings that I actually haven't.

Or to be more accurate, I can be a lot worse when castigating characters. :smalltongue:

Sorry. I'm not trying to say you have been. I just don't see why everybody else has been

okay. the class and level geekery thread puts V at less than 12 Constitution. This gives him ONE extra HP per level. he has D4 hit dice. so assuming he rolled all 3s which is being Generous he currently has 57 HP. Soon would have Likely had much more than this. Heck if he assumes the gates are in danger he'd have to be an utter moron to not send a Paladin with about that much HP to the gate.

Kish

2009-12-17, 01:32 AM

Sorry. I'm not trying to say you have been. I just don't see why everybody else has been
...maybe you don't see why people are critical of Girard because of the things you're ignoring in this thread?

I mean, "The trap is dangerous" is not the only thing someone's posted in reply to you.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:35 AM

...maybe you don't see why people are critical of Girard because of the things you're ignoring in this thread?

I mean, "The trap is dangerous" is not the only thing someone's posted in reply to you.

And I've posted responses.

Kader

2009-12-17, 01:35 AM

Soon would have Likely had much more than this.

Soon may well have a lot more than this, but he may well not. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7519480&postcount=65)

I don't claim to know how many hit points Soon had, but it's not certain, and even fairly unlikely, that he had vastly more than Roy. As the link shows, it is at least plausible that he could have had fewer.

As for V, I will refrain from speculating until seeing what V's, Haley's, and Elan's state actually is.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:39 AM

slayerx

2009-12-17, 01:40 AM

You know we may have to take into account that the damage roll for the blast turned up low for it's intended amount... so if every is still alive it could be out of shear dumb luck... also Girand specialized in illusions and as such his most powerful spell he may have had that he could use as a booby trap may have been relatively weak for an epic level caster... Especially if Girand was a sorcerer which would furthar limit the number of spells he would have at his disposal considering most of his spell list would be illusions (though i question that as i don't think i've heard much of sorcerer's specializing)

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:41 AM

Assuming it turned out the max it still wouldn't have killed Soon unless V dies in the next comic or next time he appears.

good_lookin_gus

2009-12-17, 01:42 AM

Elfin

2009-12-17, 01:44 AM

So, you're forgiving Girard for his trap because he didn't kill anyone, only seriously injured them?
It's still attempted murder, whatever his justifications.

Edit - I'm not trying to be harsh, and as Good Looking Gus has so well said it's not inexcusable...but still, attempted murder, or at least injury.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:44 AM

also, in response to an earlier question. Girard is definitely dead by this point if he's monitoring the fake location. Otherwise he wouldn't have blown up the order of the stick.

SaintRidley

2009-12-17, 01:44 AM

okay then. Assuming V rolled all 4s that puts him at 70 that's the maximum health he can have at his level. It will not kill V so assuming YOUR calculations are correct there's no way it could have killed Soon.

Unless you're arguing the Giant is going to kill another member of the party they're going to bring back so soon?

Or, you know, V might have made the saving throw. You know, Reflex for half damage. Natural 20s happen. Could be Soon would have failed. Natural 1s happen. It could do enough damage to kill Soon but V saving leaves V alive.

Could also have been an Epic Shadow Evocation, meaning there's a preliminary will save. V might have made it and taken 0 damage. And even if the gate was right there? Objects automatically make their saves against shadow evocations.

Just because there is a possibility that it could kill Soon has no bearing on the possibility that V might survive the same thing.

Axl_Rose

2009-12-17, 01:44 AM

Kallisti

2009-12-17, 01:44 AM

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:45 AM

So, you're forgiving Girard for his trap because he didn't kill anyone, only seriously injured them?
It's still attempted murder, whatever his justifications.

I'm not forgiving Girard. I'm holding off judgement until I know more about the trap and more about what happened between him and Soon.

Kader

2009-12-17, 01:46 AM

SaintRidley

2009-12-17, 01:46 AM

also, in response to an earlier question. Girard is definitely dead by this point if he's monitoring the fake location. Otherwise he wouldn't have blown up the order of the stick.

And you draw this conclusion how? He's not remote controlling the demolition here. It's built into this programmed illusion. Condition of "At this point in the speech, commence bombing." Being dead or alive has nothing to do with it. Monitoring has nothing to do with it.

Porthos

2009-12-17, 01:48 AM

Sorry. I'm not trying to say you have been. I just don't see why everybody else has been

okay. the class and level geekery thread puts V at less than 12 Constitution. This gives him ONE extra HP per level. he has D4 hit dice. so assuming he rolled all 3s which is being Generous he currently has 57 HP. Soon would have Likely had much more than this. Heck if he assumes the gates are in danger he'd have to be an utter moron to not send a Paladin with about that much HP to the gate.

For the record I have been critical of Girard over (pretty much) three issues:

A) I find him to be a prick.

Now it's a small sample size admittedly, and over a highly emotional issue. So I will admit that I should be giving him a lot of slack.

And I do.

However (and you knew a however was coming :smalltongue:) I find the anti-authority rabble rousing that Girard seems to like to induldge in... Well... Let's just say that I'm not a fan and leave it at that. :smalltongue:

Oh, it can work. And even be necessary. But sometimes it just rings wrong in my ears. And in Girard's case it reminds me of way too many people in RL that I don't like.

So. A strike there, I'm afraid. Not a huge one, mind you. More a "predisposed not to like him" one.

then there's

B) He set of a damage spell when he had no reason to.

We can debate the what the amount of damage was supposed to be all day long. And, I admit, there are curious things going on here which I have gone into detail in other threads. But I still hold it against Girard that he decided to drop even a small bomb on the trigger setter offers. Especially when he had plenty of other options that I detailed earlier in the thread.

finally there's

C) But I tend to think my biggest beef is that he didn't even allow for the possibility that someone triggering the spell could have done it with good intentions in mind.

Yes, I understand the bad blood. And, yes, I understand the mindset. But to not even allow for the possiblilty that Soon (or whomever) might come for a good reason?

Yeah. Gotta hold that against him.

As for the rest? Well while I did make comment about the fact that he could/should have disarmed it at some point when it became clear that Soon wasn't going to come in guns blazaing, it's not my biggest thing. It's more ancellary than anything else.

And I find the comments about the 12 Gods eye rolling, but nothing to get my nose out of a joint.

No, it's pretty much the three things above that makes me be pre-disposed to look at Girard unfavorably.

=======

Now this all may change. Heck it might even change with the very next update. We all know that Soon wasn't.. .the cuddliest of people in the world. Maybe Girard really had a major issue with the goblin campaign that the SG was running. Maybe Girard had major trust issues in life. Maybe Girard never even bothered to find out if Soon mellowed with age.

But for right now, I find myself wanting to go "tut-tut-tut" at Girard. And, as I said, if I am truthful with myself, it's over Issue #3 more than anything else.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:48 AM

Friggin brilliantly said!

To recap on the best points and combine with other aforementioned points;

Girard sets a high dmg explosive trap. we don't know that it's high damage.

A. There is a 10% margin of error he may have gotten it wrong and he doesn't care.
There's also the chance that 10% is a big bad not an innocent bystander. in Fact it's Highly likely
B. Soon's low lvl/hp lackeys possibly wouldn't have survived.
This is arguing that Soon is dumb enough to send low level lackeys to protect Girard's gate
C. After 12 weeks, Girard should have known "damn, looks like I lost the bet" but still keeps the trap set up and doesn't bother to modify it whatsoever. there are still other who could have won the bet and unless we're assuming he can monitor the thing or shut it off remotely then there's not much chance of him being able to turn it off.

my points are made in the bold.

Kader

2009-12-17, 01:49 AM

Clearly, emotion has blinded him; but that is not an alien or inexcusable crime.

I've only argued that he's a jerk and a bigot, and that the trap was an evil act. One evil act however does not necessarily an evil character make.

Elfin

2009-12-17, 01:49 AM

I'm not forgiving Girard. I'm holding off judgement until I know more about the trap and more about what happened between him and Soon.

You're right; and I'm sorry, that came out harsher than I meant.

It just seems that, while obviously created in a fit of rage, Girard almost certainly had opportunities to disable the trap...and didn't.

But, as you so rightly say, there's no point judging until we know the full story.

Mystic Muse

2009-12-17, 01:51 AM

And you draw this conclusion how? He's not remote controlling the demolition here. It's built into this programmed illusion. Condition of "At this point in the speech, commence bombing." Being dead or alive has nothing to do with it. Monitoring has nothing to do with it.

If he was monitoring the thing and no longer found any danger with Soon or the sapphire guard he would have deactivated it.

now I'm going to bed and I'll argue more points tomorrow.

If I don't go to bed now I'll suffocate under this blanket. plus the computer is pretty hot which isn't helping.

bladesyz

2009-12-17, 01:53 AM

It should have been you that died in that rift, you cowardly son of a bitch. Allow me to remedy that error now. Say hello to your barnyard gods for me.

... why do people keep on insisting that Girard wasn't planning on killing anyone?

Kader

2009-12-17, 01:54 AM

This is arguing that Soon is dumb enough to send low level lackeys to protect Girard's gate

Girard thinks he is. Go back and read the comic; Girard believes it's more likely that he's speaking to Soon's lackeys than to Soon himself.

Also, the Sapphire Guard does send its low level paladins into high level battles. Throne Room. Nuff said.

Kader

2009-12-17, 01:55 AM

... why do people keep on insisting that Girard wasn't planning on killing anyone?

I really don't know.

SaintRidley

2009-12-17, 01:59 AM

{Scrubbed}

Porthos

2009-12-17, 01:59 AM

... why do people keep on insisting that Girard wasn't planning on killing anyone?

Honestly? Mostly because Roy survived.

If Girard really wanted Soon dead, Roy should be as well.

---

One can make all the mechanical arguments in the world that one wants to about the relative HPs between Roy and Soon. But something is going on here.* And I am curious as to see what exactly it is.**

Hopefully we'll find out soon.

..

Err..

No pun intended. :smallredface:

* It may even be something as simple as a spell that's lost effectiveness over the years. Who knows.

** NB: I am in the camp that Girard intended to kill Soon. Probably. Which is why, as I have said, I am puzzled as to why it didn't wipe the floor with the party.

It's an irritant that I just can't quite get out of my mind, no matter how I look at the problem.

magic9mushroom

2009-12-17, 02:00 AM

Soon = Roy
Girard = Haley
Dorukan = Vaarsuvius
Serini = Elan
Lirian = Durkon
Kraagor = Belkar

is the best analogy I can come up with. The first four are quite obvious, the latter two are a little more ambiguous.

Interesting that Haley/Elan are genderswapped, eh?

bladesyz

2009-12-17, 02:03 AM

Honestly? Mostly because Roy survived.

If Girard really wanted Soon dead, Roy should be as well.

---

One can make all the mechanical arguments in the world that one wants to. But something is going on here.* And I am curious as to see what exactly it is.

Hopefully we'll find out soon.

..

Err..

No pun intended. :smallredface:

* It may even be something as simple as a spell that's lost effectiveness over the years. Who knows.

Sigh... failing to kill someone does not mean lack of intent to kill.

As for *why* it didn't kill the OOTS party... how many spells in D&D do you know that can reliably kill a teen-level party in one shot?

Porthos

2009-12-17, 02:07 AM

Sigh... failing to kill someone does not mean lack of intent to kill.

Now, here's the thing. I actually respect Girard's power enough to think that he should have a rough idea of Soon's HP and set the spell to an according strength.

At the very least, V should be deep sixed right now.

Which is why I am puzzled about the whole thing.

You may not have been reading my posts in this thread (or my edit of my last post), but I do think that Girard intended on killing Soon. I have said that I take him at his word, you know. :smallwink:

But I am still trying to wrap my head around why it didn't work.

Because it absolutely should have wiped the floor with Roy and co. CON loss ain't that huge.

EDIT::::

Since you edited. :smallsmile:

As for *why* it didn't kill the OOTS party... how many spells in D&D do you know that can reliably kill a teen-level party in one shot?

Girard is Epic. Epic Spells can get crazy. Girard felt his spell would do enough damage to take out Soon.

I feel Girard should know what he is talking about. :smalltongue:

Zeful

2009-12-17, 02:09 AM

Sigh... failing to kill someone does not mean lack of intent to kill.

True, but most people point out that if Girard really, honestly, wanted Soon dead, he'd pick something powerful enough to actually do the job, which would leave Roy nothing but a pile of fleshy dust flying through the skies.

Some have commented that the blast used was specifically chosen to weaken or humiliate Soon so that Girard could Teleport/Epic Shadowwalk/whatever and do the job himself.

Kader

2009-12-17, 02:12 AM

True, but most people point out that if Girard really, honestly, wanted Soon dead, he'd pick something powerful enough to actually do the job, which would leave Roy nothing but a pile of fleshy dust flying through the skies.

See above (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7519480&postcount=65) for why this does not have to be the case.

good_lookin_gus

2009-12-17, 02:22 AM

I've only argued that he's a jerk and a bigot, and that the trap was an evil act. One evil act however does not necessarily an evil character make.

Well you're judging his personality entirely on the way he (sort of) interacts with his sworn enemy and betrayer. But we're in agreement on the trap being evil; though the G in the message might proclaim that the mindless drones of an egomaniac weren't exactly long for this world:smallwink:.

saral

2009-12-17, 02:25 AM

What makes Girard wrong is if he gave the true co-ordinates to Serini. Otherwise taunt followed by clearing up the evidence iss utterly ruthless but a good defence.

Drascin

2009-12-17, 02:25 AM

While I'm sure it's frustrating to wade through narrow sighted propositions of what Girad was really thinking, as well as "ZOMG GERAD IZ SOOOOOOO KEWL1111WON"; I don't understand the passionate condemnation of a person when we know so little about them. He is not a monster; he is a human. Humans make mistakes, sometimes catastrophic ones. He is not an idiot, he feels he was betrayed. Apparently, others shared this sentiment. Clearly, emotion has blinded him; but that is not an alien or inexcusable crime.

Aaaaaactually... consistently getting things wrong due to emotion is rather the mark of an idiot. "Emotional idiot" is an idiom for something :smallbiggrin:.

And really, we have seen Girard make only three assumptions, all three of them have turned wrong - while it's not an instant condemnation, because anyone can get a streak of complete fumbles in their insight rolls so to speak, from current trend we have at least decent reason to suspect he didn't invest much in Int.

factotum

2009-12-17, 02:39 AM

You know, in the interests of moving the debate on a bit, I will stipulate that one can argue that the Oath has been broken (by Shojo, but no one else).

Actually, you can't. Serini specifically stated in the terms of the original oath that they'd set up a monitoring divination so they'd know if each other's gates were destroyed. What would be the point of doing that if not to check them out when something that important happened? And as Kish has pointed out numerous times, Girard must have been breaking the no-contact clause of the Oath himself if he had a betting pool going with Serini...not to mention Lirian and Dorukan's continuous oathbreaking.

Connington

2009-12-17, 02:39 AM

What makes Girard wrong is if he gave the true co-ordinates to Serini. Otherwise taunt followed by clearing up the evidence iss utterly ruthless but a good defence.

Except of course, that "clearing up the evidence" would involve killing off the heroes, and Girard knows that their's a distinctly non-zero change of this happening.

Porthos

2009-12-17, 02:49 AM

Actually, you can't.

Well, two things here. First off I said one could make the argument. I didn't say they were correct in their argument. :smallwink:

Secondly, and much more importantly, I was saying that even if one of the SG broke the oath, it doesn't mean that Girard should have gone nuclear on the people who set off the trigger.

Pun intended this time. :smalltongue:

Serini specifically stated in the terms of the original oath that they'd set up a monitoring divination so they'd know if each other's gates were destroyed. What would be the point of doing that if not to check them out when something that important happened?

Hey, I've argued about that a lot myself. I just wanted to apporach this from a "even if Girard was right about the oath breaking, he's still wrong in his actions" angle.

No more, no less.

And as Kish has pointed out numerous times, Girard must have been breaking the no-contact clause of the Oath himself if he had a betting pool going with Serini...not to mention Lirian and Dorukan's continuous oathbreaking.

Well, I don't think Girard was much for keeping Oaths personally. :smallwink: But he probably felt it useful to mock people who supposedly kept to them, but broke them when they became inconvinent (he probably presumes that Soon is a hypocrtitical so and so. Hence his rant).

And as for Lirian and Dorukan, they repsected the Oath enough to keep their indescrestions private. :smallwink:

Probably would have been better for all concerned if they had just dropped the silly Oath nonsense and been up front about it. At the very least they might have been better able to coordinate stuff.

Oh well. I suppose if the Order of the Scribble had been competent, then there wouldn't be a need for the Order of the Stick. :smalltongue:

Fanatic-Templar

2009-12-17, 02:50 AM

I think it makes for great characterisation.

Girard's behaviour is definitely detrimental and unbecoming. He sacrificed his duties and risked the world for no better reason than to settle a personal grudge. He gambles on his assumptions and instincts, ignoring the possibility that he may be wrong. This all makes him quite the unsympathetic fellow, especially to more lawful oriented individuals such as myself. But they're all traits that people exhibit. And they're all within reason for a character of his alignment.

Back when we first started dealing with the paladins, we had to start with Miko. A self-important zealot who felt she wielded absolute authority and perfect judgment. In fact, just like Girard, when she first encountered the Order she simply assumed they were threats, despite little rason to believe that and much against it, and attacked them.

Then we met Shojo, who was acting to help save the world by operating behind the Sapphire Guard's backs. To the reader, Shojo was obviously right, and the stiff-necked paladins were a hindrance. I, as I mentioned before, am closer to the paladins in my beliefs, and felt that the authour was unjustly persecuting their beliefs, and through them, mine. Like he was using the comic to express his prejudices. I think Xykon's Symbol of Insanity superball was especially striking in that perspective.

Because I felt under attack, I defended myself through those characters. Every action they did, no matter how wrong they obviously were, could be justified with enough work, until with the murder of Shojo, even I couldn't deny the truth anymore. Sure, at that point Miko was no longer a paladin, but she was a result of such a mindset and a life that allowed, sometimes even encouraged it.

Ultimately, we got a huge sampling of paladin awesomeness in the Battle for Azure City, and while Soon's fight with Xykon was certainly a great factor, I think his conversation with Miko where he explained where she erred was especially valuable in that regard. The arc demonstrated the paladins in their flaws and their virtues.

I still think of Miko as a tragic character more than a villain of any sort.

So with Girard, I expect a similar passage. It's useful to building a good character, you have to give him flaws and qualities, and by starting with the bad, you can build up to a more heroic climax, with the character 'overcoming' his foibles, as it were.

While we must accept that Girard is perhaps a selfish, petty, vengeful, irresponsible jerk here, I also expect that we will eventually see some magnificent displays of awesome when the bony bastard comes.