Dead Wizards, Oh My

[EnderChant]

So, I have a problem.

I've got what I hope is a flavorful idea for magic, but no ideas on how to make a game from it.

Imagine if wizards, in order to do magic, had to conjure the ghosts of other wizards, who either explain or do the magic on their behalf. For every spell a wizard casts in life, they owe one spell to a future wizard in death. Nobody knows what it is about the ghosts of wizards that enable them to cast spells, and if the spirits know themselves, they aren't telling.

The setting's resident goddess of magic would be responsible for enforcing these terms and conditions for wizardry; a wizard's ghost would have to be "on call" until their spell quota is met, after which they can go to their final rest in whatever afterlife the game calls for.

So while I'd like to base a game off of this idea, I'm stumped as to how to do it.

E

[cheezewizz2000]

It would give an awful lot of power to someone who could control those spirits. Essentially, spirits would be granting their spells to wizards like a god grants his spells to clerics. If someone was some sort of Ur-Wizard (stealing spells, rather than being granted them in the normal way), it would screw over the other wizards, be reducing the amount of spell-power in the aether, and would annoy the God/Godess of magic.

Sounds like something only some sort of rag-tag band of mis-matched comrades could solve.

[Milskidasith]

The only thing this would effect would be RPing, unless you frequently have your PCs play as dead people. Once they're dead, the story is over, so it doesn't do anything.

[clockworkmonk]

Well, if you set it up such that a wizard is assigned a spirit based on divinations and good guessing as to how many spells that wizard is gonna cast in a lifetime, you could make the ghost a recurring NPC, on call for one wizard.

[CrazedPachyderm]

Sounds like a cool idea to me :smallsmile:

You have a neat world built (or a foundation for one), so we need a complication, something to shake up the status quo. Perhaps there is some wizard who doesn't feel the rules apply to him? He wants to avoid the death obligation clause by not dying... maybe by making himself a lich.

Or, maybe a dead wizard has completed his spell obligation, but hasn't moved on to the afterlife. He feels that he gave far more than he received, so he wants to take something back from the material world. Make the Magic Goddess Lawful and it would be plausible for her to let him run free, since he's no longer "under contract" and free to do as he wishes. Of course, it's up to our jolly band of heroes (material or other contract-free ghosts) to stop him before he takes over the world / severs the magical ties to the ghostworld / kills a lot of innocents.

[kemmotar]

Well, if you intend to use it as the fluff for magic you can use it as an alternative explanation for magic in any existing setting. The mechanics would be slightly different but not so much that they can't be used in existing settings.

Wizards would no longer need spellbooks and you could have them use a mechanic similar to that of clerics in the preparation. Wizards commune with the ghosts and they "give" them the spell. The more experienced the wizard the more spells his mind can hold without breaking, or something similar.

As to making a game from it, you could have a researcher that wants to find the source of magic, where the souls of wizards go and how the power of the spell is transferred from ghost to wizard and how the ghost of the wizard retains the power of spells that have already been expended. Perhaps he wants to know the number of spells in existence.

One man's idle curiosity is another man's income...

[Ecalsneerg]

The only thing this would effect would be RPing, unless you frequently have your PCs play as dead people. Once they're dead, the story is over, so it doesn't do anything.
Ghostwalk.

[Danin]

Isn't there a minor logical flaw there? If the ghost explains it a few dozen times (reflected in casting the spell that many times) shouldn't the living wizard figure out how to do it? Or at least repeat it without the help of the wizard?

If the ghost is casting the spell, however, you run into another logical problem. Mainly, if the caster doesn't know how to cast the spell and relies on a ghost to do it, how does he suddenly know how to cast the spell posthumously? That same problem carries on to the wizards who would be summoned to help cast the spell. And if no 'new' magic is being researched and learned and can not be in life, how is it that new spells are ever created? Were they created eons ago and are just being passed down? If so, how did they create them? And why can't you create any more now?

I love the idea, but it just seems... like something is missing. Something to bring it all together. My logical response would be something along the lines of:

Living creatures can research and learn spells, know how to do it and know how it works. That said, just like in real life, we can't cast spells. Either we simply have no talent for it or we can not access it, but whatever it is, it's beyond our capacity to do so. Spirits can affect magic. They can perform it and cast it due to their unique proximity to the magical ebb and flow of the universe. The spirit doesn't necessarily know how to cast the given spell you are summoning it for. To cast a spell is to summon a spirit who is oath bound to perform the spell for you. You have to perform the verbal and semantic component as a guide for the spirit, who casts the spell for you.

T'would be my response. That... is interesting flavor that I may play with. Metamagic feats such as still and silent could be reflected in the spirit already knowing how to do that part of the spell, remembering from life or from years of being summoned.

[Optimystik]

Ghostwalk.

I don't understand. What's Ghostwalk? Are you suggesting these "spirits" be undead? Because that's a huge can of worms if you ask me.

[kemmotar]

As to how spells are actually cast, the wizard can know the spell, but there is a limited amount of spells created from part of the body of the relevant god. Thus the source of the power for the spell is the fragment of the spell and the act of passing it on which powers it.

Thus you address in the same time a number of issues. The fragments of the spell transferred from soul to soul and each fragment can only be powered through the passing from soul to soul passing through the weave of magic where it gathers power.

Thus you could also get a single wizard that is trying to amass all spells and be the only person capable of casting magic by binding the ghosts of wizards making them unable to give spells to anyone else and needs one last artifact to complete his evil plan.

[EnderChant]

@Milskidasith: Exactly. This is something I think is flavorful; it's not intended to be a mechanical thing.

@Crazed Pachyderm: I hadn't thought of that; undead spellcasters would be a huge problem here. They're not only cheating death, they're taking advantage of a system. Very interesting.

@Danin: There is a logical flaw, but it's an intentional one. In the original post, I mentioned nobody knows why a wizard's ghost can do magic, but a wizard can't. However, I like your take on it; feel free to take the concept if you like.

[Optimystik]

Necromancy is another big problem here. Necromancers could corral the source of magic - dead wizards - and thus control arcane spell supply.

My advice is to just make them "spirits" that can't be turned, or bound, or fused with, or controlled etc. by mortals.

[Ecalsneerg]

I don't understand. What's Ghostwalk? Are you suggesting these "spirits" be undead? Because that's a huge can of worms if you ask me.
Ghostwalk is a setting where ghosts linger after death, and can be PCs. Although they're not ghosts in the Monster Manual sense.

[Another_Poet]

Living creatures can research and learn spells, know how to do it and know how it works. That said, just like in real life, we can't cast spells. Either we simply have no talent for it or we can not access it, but whatever it is, it's beyond our capacity to do so. Spirits can affect magic. They can perform it and cast it due to their unique proximity to the magical ebb and flow of the universe. The spirit doesn't necessarily know how to cast the given spell you are summoning it for. To cast a spell is to summon a spirit who is oath bound to perform the spell for you. You have to perform the verbal and semantic component as a guide for the spirit, who casts the spell for you.

Brilliant.

[Reaper_Monkey]

But what about evil lich, or hell even just evil wizards. I don't really see them being happy or in cases even able to (due to "cheating" death) cast spells for others, unless its to further their own goals despite their demise.

I like the idea of it though, I take it spells cast from wizards now past don't count towards your quota of spells you yourself have cast and thus must cast after you've past on? Or is it that you have a much smaller number of spells you can cast per day yourself and ghosts expand upon that significantly?

[Siosilvar]

But what about evil lich, or hell even just evil wizards. I don't really see them being happy or in cases even able to (due to "cheating" death) cast spells for others, unless its to further their own goals despite their demise.

I like the idea of it though, I take it spells cast from wizards now past don't count towards your quota of spells you yourself have cast and thus must cast after you've past on? Or is it that you have a much smaller number of spells you can cast per day yourself and ghosts expand upon that significantly?

The idea is that you can't cast any spells without the assistance, so you need to repay that by assisting others with theirs.

[ZeroNumerous]

The idea is that you can't cast any spells without the assistance, so you need to repay that by assisting others with theirs.

And the idea he's proposing is a story-based one. Maybe an evil wizard is refusing to pay back his debt by becoming undead or an evil spirit wizard is trying to further some sort of goal he had in life posthumously.

[Reaper_Monkey]

The idea is that you can't cast any spells without the assistance, so you need to repay that by assisting others with theirs.

You would eventually have to learn enough to be able to cast them solo otherwise you'd not be able to aid others after your death. Which means you could, if so inclined, dedicate all of your learning to only source from the living - would this mean you could evade helping others once your dead?

Unless you can only truly understand magic after your demise and thus do most of your learning when your dead... which I guess is a very unique and interesting magic system for the world. I guess you'd have sects of casters still, so dead evil wizards would help living evil wizards, but dead good wizards wouldn't aid them at all. This would explain the very defined "schools" of magic as its actually just groups of similar minded wizards passing on their knowledge that they learn after they die.

[LibraryOgre]

So, I have a problem.

I've got what I hope is a flavorful idea for magic, but no ideas on how to make a game from it.

Imagine if wizards, in order to do magic, had to conjure the ghosts of other wizards, who either explain or do the magic on their behalf. For every spell a wizard casts in life, they owe one spell to a future wizard in death. Nobody knows what it is about the ghosts of wizards that enable them to cast spells, and if the spirits know themselves, they aren't telling.

The setting's resident goddess of magic would be responsible for enforcing these terms and conditions for wizardry; a wizard's ghost would have to be "on call" until their spell quota is met, after which they can go to their final rest in whatever afterlife the game calls for.

So while I'd like to base a game off of this idea, I'm stumped as to how to do it.

You might try looking for the 2nd edition supplement "Shaman", which actually worked on a similar premise. Some of the mechanics were kinda naff, but it was a good premise for a game.

However, one possible consequence of this is that when wizards die, they DIE, and they can't be raised or resurrected until their fee is paid. Of course, wizards retain their personalities in death... some may refuse to cast certain spells, or throw on certain "extras", making magic fairly unpredictable. What if you get the spirit of a goblin wizard when trying to kill goblins? Will he cast that fireball for you, or will he refuse, needing to be bribed or cajoled?

In this kind of system, I'd have a spellcasting roll, and maybe introduce some MAD to wizards... they can cast spells based on their Intelligence, but they get bonus slots based on their Charisma.

[Volkov]

One flaw in our idea. How did the first wizard cast any spells?

[EnderChant]

Nobody knows. I find that thoroughly explaining magic is a good way to make it unmagical.

How the first wizard did anything at all is a mystery.

[Volkov]

Nobody knows. I find that thoroughly explaining magic is a good way to make it unmagical.

How the first wizard did anything at all is a mystery.

Perhaps he had the lost art of using magic in the more traditional D&D style, which either died with him, or he became an Lich and never told a soul. The second idea could make a great plot hook, as he'd be more powerful than any other wizard around and would need to be stopped. Heck it could be the basis of an entire campaign. Though of course by now he'd probably already be a demi-lich.

[Boci]

One flaw in our idea. How did the first wizard cast any spells?

A god taught it to them?

[LibraryOgre]

One flaw in our idea. How did the first wizard cast any spells?

The first wizards were granted their spells by Ioun*, rather in the manner of Warlocks; they knew that their actions would cost them time in the afterlife, but accepted the bargain. It is said that one shunned the cost, and cast so many spells that, even now, thousands of years later, he is still paying off the debt.

*Insert magic deity of choice; I would personally go with a deity closer to Wee Jas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Jas), in that she is highly Lawful and also has an aspect of Death... she controls the souls of wizards until they have paid their debt.

[Giegue]

I know a class that sounds somewhat like what you want. It's in the Tome of Magic. I forget it's name but it's a caster that basically gains it's power by summoning and binding ghosts which give them certain abilities. If I remember right some of the spirits they created where in fact spellcasters in life. If you wanted you could homebrew more spellcaster spirits to be bound. I think the class was refered to as the "binder' though I am not sure. Just look for the Tome of Magic, all the info you need is in that book.

[Flickerdart]

One flaw in our idea. How did the first wizard cast any spells?
A Wizard Did It. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: You're thinking of the Binder, Giegue. That's a bit different, as Binders don't cast spells so much as make pacts with eldritch creatures from beyond space and time.

[Giegue]

I see, I skipped over that section in the tome of magic, I was too eger to get to the shadowcasting part, so thanks for filling me in.

[GolemsVoice]

A question all good aligned (would-be) magic users wil have to ask themselves is: How much of a pain is it for those dead wizards to remain on call? Do they simply not exist until someone calls them, or do they sit in a neutral waiting room, literally waiting, which could bring the problem of terrible boredom, or are they lost, similiar to the more classic ghosts?

A good-aligned spellcaster might feel that it is not ruight to call upon the spirits of the dead in order to further the goals of the living, and an organization of violent anti-magic-people could have formed, intent on ending the use of arcane magic, thereby laying the dead to rest, whether this is actually true or not.

Or, somebody actually finds out that being forced to remain on call is painful to the spirits, and researches a way to cast amgic without calling on the dead. He now has to seek out the godess and bring her his proposal, along with asking her to free the remaining ghost-wizards.

Edit: And I see no problem with not actually being able to cast magic while still understanding magic. It's like studying engineering, but only receiving the tools after you're dead. Future engineers will call upon your ghostly tools to craft for them. They KNOW how it's done, but they don't have the means to do it.