(Spoiler) Kraagor

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Okay, here's an interesting long-term theory... Useless speculation, really, I just want to post it so that I can say I called it later.

We know from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html that something happened to Kraagor while the Order of the Scribble was closing the last gate. Judging from today's explosion, my guess is that in that battle, Soon took a 5' step back from the rift and told the spellcasters to close the rift. (or they were both adjacent to it and Kraagor just failed a Reflex save or something.) Kraagor must have been sucked into the rift and lost, which Girard blamed on Soon.

However, we know from Blackwing's view of a Rift that there's a world inside. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html Couldn't it be possible that Kraagor is still alive, but inside the rift?

[DaveMcW]

It's obvious (to me at least) that Kraagor *is* the gate.

[Random832]

Before anyone says that he wouldn't survive the landing given the apparent height he'd have to fall from - he is an epic-level barbarian.

[BishFish]

either Kraagor is the statue on the gate or they put that there to remember him.


695 says that Kraagor died and that it was soon's fault.

[CDR_Doom]

695 says that Kraagor died and that Girard blames Soon.

fixed that for ya.:smallwink:

[Water-Smurf]

Personally, I think that everyone who fell in the rift survived.

I await a tear-jerking moment later on where we see the ghosts of Mijung and Soon reunite. It's too sad of an idea to think that they're all gone for good.

[Asta Kask]

Haven't we seen a statue made from Kraagor's body? Or is that just the headstone?

[snikrept]

Presumably if he were merely dead and gone to the afterlife, they could have found someone to resurrect him. If they're whimsically betting 10Kgp on when Soon breaks the oath, they have enough diamonds to rez Kraagor. The fact that their comrade is merely dead shouldn't be something to squabble about, for an epic level party.

It was mentioned by Redcloak when he tries to get O-chul to talk that it is believed that being chucked into the rift unmakes you with no possibility of your soul finding the afterlife. This is what happened to Kraagor.

Of course, this is only what is believed. It's not clear why this is believed, from the online part of the comic anyhow. Presumably someone tried to true resurrect Soon's wife or something and the spell fizzled. Or they communed with the gods and got that as the answer. Whether this is actually what happens when you fall in the rift, who knows.

[Dienekes]

We know from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html that something happened to Kraagor while the Order of the Scribble was closing the last gate. Judging from today's explosion, my guess is that in that battle, Soon took a 5' step back from the rift and told the spellcasters to close the rift. (or they were both adjacent to it and Kraagor just failed a Reflex save or something.) Kraagor must have been sucked into the rift and lost, which Girard blamed on Soon.

You'll notice if you look at the picture, Kraagor is actually walking toward the Snarl growling, axe in hand (Or very awkwardly stepping backwards). It could be the squibbly drawing though.

Personally, after I noticed this I thought it implied that Kraagor was barbarianing it up and had actually stepped forward to engage the Snare. Soon, realizing how futile this is order's the spell to be cast, and Kraagor is lost.

There are numerous other ways to take this though, maybe the Snarl was breaking free and Kraagor was pulling a heroic sacrifice. Who knows? I really wish we get some light on this subject though.

[Souju]

Anyone else notice that Girard and Serini are NOT in the panel with the other 4 members?
Maybe that has something to do with something...
Kraagor might still be around, but unless there's some kind of uber magic that keeps people within the Snarl-world from aging, Soon's wife is probably dead of old age (especially given Soon himself died of old age when Shojo was a kid)

[Thanatosia]

Of course, this is only what is believed. It's not clear why this is believed, from the online part of the comic anyhow.
Because the Snarl killed Gods. If you just 'kill' a god in the normal manner rather then unmaking them from existance entirely, then what do you got? You got a god that just got sent back to his home plane of existance (the outer plane where his followers go when they die), from wich he has always been free to travel as he chooses.

[Zea mays]

Personally, I think that everyone who fell in the rift survived.

I await a tear-jerking moment later on where we see the ghosts of Mijung and Soon reunite. It's too sad of an idea to think that they're all gone for good.

But Soon's wife didn't fall into the rift. A clawed hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) came out of it and killed her. She died within the Stickverse proper (at least her x's-over-the-eyes body was still there). Wouldn't her ghost end be in Celestia already? :smallconfused:

Strange that we do not see Kraagor's body, and it is not specified if the same thing happened to him or if he fell in.

Did I say strange? I meant to say intentionally ambiguous.
*awaits future revelations*

[Kish]

But Soon's wife didn't fall into the rift. A clawed hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) came out of it and killed her. She died within the Stickverse proper (at least her x's-over-the-eyes body was still there). Wouldn't her ghost end be in Celestia already? :smallconfused:
She was killed by the Snarl, so, her soul was destroyed. Tragic, but seemingly inescapable.

[Zea mays]

She was killed by the Snarl, so, her soul was destroyed. Tragic, but seemingly inescapable.
Thank you for the answer.

Yeah, duh, I suppose is she was just dead she could have been raised.

My memory fails me - in which strip does it say that the snarl abolishes the soul of every person it kills?

[derfenrirwolv]

But Soon's wife didn't fall into the rift. A clawed hand came out of it and killed her. She died within the Stickverse proper (at least her x's-over-the-eyes body was still there). Wouldn't her ghost end be in Celestia already

No, if that was the case soon would have had her raised from the dead

[Kish]

Thank you for the answer.

Yeah, duh, I suppose is she was just dead she could have been raised.

My memory fails me - in which strip does it say that the snarl abolishes the soul of every person it kills?
One in Start of Darkness.

(I'm not spoilering it because Rich also said so in a forum post, a while back, before Start of Darkness came out.)

[HealthKit]

695 says that Kraagor died and that it was soon's fault.

695 says that Girard thinks that Kraagor died, and blames Soon.
Strangely enough there hasn't been much actual confirmation that Kraagor is really dead- it's only been implied.
Look at when Shojo tells the story (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)- he doesn't actually say that Kraagor was killed in battle.

I say show me a body.
One with the X's in the eyes.

[TheSummoner]

If Kraagor is alive (or at the very least, not believed-to-be-dead by the Scribble), explain "your sacrifice will not be forgotten." He have to throw some fine Dwarven booze into the rift or something? :smallamused:

[Axl_Rose]

How Ironic!

I came to the same conclusion/speculation when I reread 276 as well. Although mine was flavoured with

the possibility of Kraagor being corrupted?

@ TheSummoner's post

Summarized as: "DUH - SERINI SAID YOUR SACRIFICE WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN. THEREFORE HE DIED FOR SURE!"

- Let's take 5 seconds to evaluate how naive that comment is.

They said "Your sacrifice will not be forgotten" because THEY thought he was dead. They didn't see what Blackwing saw. What they think is NOT THE SAME as what is true.

[DBJack]

It's strange to me how Kraagor was really killed. Did the snarl claw him like with Mijung? Did he fall in? Did the spell that sealed the rift seal in Kraagor?

Now, they were casting a spell to seal the rift because Dorukon hadn't researched the Gate yet, so Kraagor and/or the statue wouldn't seem to be the gate itself. I think it is a statue, a headstone. Hopefully when the party finally reaches Girard in the flesh he'll monolouge some more about explain exactly what happened and how exactly it happened.

Maybe there's more to it than Soon pressuring Dorukon to cast faster?

[TheSummoner]

@ TheSummoner's post

Summarized as: "DUH - SERINI SAID YOUR SACRIFICE WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN. THEREFORE HE DIED FOR SURE!"

- Let's take 5 seconds to evaluate how naive that comment is.

They said "Your sacrifice will not be forgotten" because THEY thought he was dead. They didn't see what Blackwing saw. What they think is NOT THE SAME as what is true.

Oh, so THEY thought he was dead... kinda like exactly what I said was a possibility ("If Kraagor is alive (or at the very least, not believed-to-be-dead by the Scribble), explain...")

Thank you for pointing out how naive I am and how I must be the kind of idiot who types in all caps because I failed to realize that thing I mentioned as a possibility.

And aside from your tone being entirely uncalled for... You do NOT KNOW what is true, theres so little concrete evidence that the best anyone can do is speculate.

[Fitzclowningham]

We have no direct evidence of the existence of the Snarl at all, and the only direct evidence we *do* have about the rifts is that there is a world within one of them. Everything else we have is hearsay. The Dark One's Plan is based on information he got from the other gods, who in the past had no problem lying to him. The Order of the Scribble saga we have second (third?) hand from Shojo.

[SPoD]

We have no direct evidence of the existence of the Snarl at all, and the only direct evidence we *do* have about the rifts is that there is a world within one of them. Everything else we have is hearsay. The Dark One's Plan is based on information he got from the other gods, who in the past had no problem lying to him. The Order of the Scribble saga we have second (third?) hand from Shojo.

As of #694, we have Girard's words that he thinks he is speaking to Soon. This is actually the most direct testimony we've gotten about the Snarl, because presumably both of them saw it, whereas Shojo was just relaying Soon's story. Girard bases his (faulty) prediction of Soon's behavior on his belief that Soon will try to seize the power of the Snarl, so it's more likely than not that Girard at least believes in the Snarl, on some level, even if the details are different than what we've been shown.

[Larkspur]

She was killed by the Snarl, so, her soul was destroyed. Tragic, but seemingly inescapable.

Are we sure it destroyed her soul, as opposed to ripping it out of her body and sequestering it inside itself along with the planet?

[Optimystik]

Are we sure it destroyed her soul, as opposed to ripping it out of her body and sequestering it inside itself along with the planet?

Whether she was actually destroyed or not, I'm willing to bet the "inescapable" part was true.

[Bodica]

I was looking at 276 and it hit me.

Who would make a headstone with a sad face?

[Conuly]

I was looking at 276 and it hit me.

Who would make a headstone with a sad face?

Somebody who feels that laughing it up in the afterlife when there IS no afterlife for you is just inappropriate?

[Fawkes]

Look at when Shojo tells the story (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)- he doesn't actually say that Kraagor was killed in battle.

Check the second panel of the next comic: "With the death of Kraagor weighing heavily on their hearts..."

[HealthKit]

Check the second panel of the next comic: "With the death of Kraagor weighing heavily on their hearts..."

Oh snap, you got me there. :smallamused:

Still, I think it's possible everyone believes he's dead, when the truth might be something different.

[J.J.J-H-Schmidt]

intersting idea... the pantheon that was consumed by the rift is one we are familiar with... maybe everyone did fall through to our reality... maybe the barb became beowulf?

[Herald Alberich]

One in Start of Darkness.

(I'm not spoilering it because Rich also said so in a forum post, a while back, before Start of Darkness came out.)

Redcloak also says so in 545 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html).

[Solara]

I was looking at 276 and it hit me.

Who would make a headstone with a sad face?

I don't think it can be Kraagor turned to stone, because the statue is just standing there with neatly combed hair instead of raging at the Snarl with an axe.