Uberchargers in Core 3.5

[Fortuna]

Hit me with your best Ubercharger builds in Core, playground. Please?

[Myrmex]

Anything on a mount using a lance 2handed + the spirited charge feat.

Is XPH considered core? If so, combine the above with a full out power attack and the psionic feat deep impact to make it resolve as a touch attack.

[Eldariel]

*shrug* Barbarian 20 or Barbarian 14/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4 or Barbarian 12/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4. And yeah, feats as Myrmex laid out. You mite as well pick up Improved Trip since you'll most likely have impressive Str, as a secondary strategy.

It's Core so you don't exactly lose much that way. Not like there were too many feats worth picking up. And yeah, to optimize the numbers in Core, you should have Weapon Focus too.

[Myrmex]

Actually; you don't need XPH to hit with a full out power attack. Just put up true strike before you charge.

[Milskidasith]

That burns a standard action, though.

[herrhauptmann]

Use a wand of wraithstrike.
Bariaur (a tauric type creature). Saw a build where it had mounted combat, because it WAS the mount.
So full mounted combat feat tree, plus leap attack, and combatbrute and shocktrooper. I wish I could give you the full build, but it wasn't my character.

[Boci]

Use a wand of wraithstrike.
Bariaur (a tauric type creature). Saw a build where it had mounted combat, because it WAS the mount.
So full mounted combat feat tree, plus leap attack, and combatbrute and shocktrooper. I wish I could give you the full build, but it wasn't my character.

Core only.

[sofawall]

Use a wand of wraithstrike.
Bariaur (a tauric type creature). Saw a build where it had mounted combat, because it WAS the mount.
So full mounted combat feat tree, plus leap attack, and combatbrute and shocktrooper. I wish I could give you the full build, but it wasn't my character.

I see only one thing here from core.

[Myrmex]

That burns a standard action, though.

Cry me a river?

[edit]
I mean to say; for everyone but the druid, his AC, and the shapeshifted familiar, there's no way in core to get pounce, meaning the first action of all the non-chargers is a move & attack or charge & attack. In the second round, they'll be getting their full attacks. For the fighter, he'll do decent damage, though his later iteratives will most likely miss. The monk won't do anything impressive, and the rogue better hope he's up against something that isn't immune to his damage, otherwise his twf damage will be quite impressive.

In the second round, the charger charges for 20 2:1 power attack x3, or 120 bonus damage. That's without factoring in any other type of damage.

[Pluto]

Barbarian 1/Druid X.

Pounce more than makes up for the 5 lost points of BA.

The full casting and animal companion elements don't hurt anything, either.

Barbarian 1/Druid X.

Pounce more than makes up for the 5 lost points of BA.

The full casting and animal companion elements don't hurt anything, either.

Edit:
Truestrike's for chumps. Losing initiative (or wasting your first action) means that you've got a wall/fog cloud/grease patch between you and the enemy.

And then you have to more than double your damage output or you come out behind where you'd have been if you charged/full attacked for 2 consecutive rounds.

[Milskidasith]

Cry me a river?

Halving your attacks is fairly suboptimal. Why are you so hostile?

[Myrmex]

Halving your attacks is fairly suboptimal. Why are you so hostile?

See my edit; in comparison to other core tier 4 & 5's, it's not that big a deal.


Barbarian 1/Druid X.

Pounce more than makes up for the 5 lost points of BA.

The full casting and animal companion elements don't hurt anything, either.

Why Barb 1? If you're pouncing, you may as well go monk 1 for the ac bonus and flurry.

[Pluto]

Why Barb 1? If you're pouncing, you may as well go monk 1 for the ac bonus and flurry.
Rage means increased damage. The speed boost is also nice.

Edit:
Dire Tiger Flurry puzzles me. I can simultaneously see 3-4 different interpretations of how it works. Also, the mental image confuses me.

[Boci]

Also, the mental image confuses me.

What? Have you never seen kung fu panda?

[Samb]

I'd say you need the following to be a ubercharger.

Deep impact, power attack, leap attack, psionic lion charge, furious charge (+4 on charge attack and damage), powerful charge (extra damage on charge depending on size), greater powerful charge (act as 1 size larger) and every bit of BAB you can get.

Half-giant fighter 4/warmind 5 is pretty sweet for this since you can use an oversized weapon already at no penatly (powerful build) then use expansion.

Already, you have a large greatsword thanks to powerful build.

Expansion to be huge.

Greater powerful charge make you gargantuan. Or if you take practised manifester (war mind) then you can augment expansion to make your sword Colossal!!!

Powerful charge adds 4d6 on a charge (or +6d6 for colossal)

And lets not forget all the damage from a maxed out power leap attack.

Deep impact makes it unlikely you will miss, but furious charge and PLC adds at least 5 to your attack, your STR and attack bonus from the increase in size should help also.

At higher levels, dip into barbarian and start frenzied berserker for more enhancements into power attack. Lets not forget your STR boost from your chains of offense (war mind), rage, AND frenzy.

Anything that doesn't die on your attack is most likely a god or your DM cheating.

[Boci]

I'd say you need the following to be a ubercharger.

Deep impact, power attack, leap attack, psionic lion charge, furious charge (+4 on charge attack and damage), powerful charge (extra damage on charge depending on size), greater powerful charge (act as 1 size larger) and every bit of BAB you can get.

Half-giant fighter 4/warmind 5 is pretty sweet for this since you can use an oversized weapon already at no penatly (powerful build) then use expansion.

Already, you have a large greatsword thanks to powerful build.

Expansion to be huge.

Greater powerful charge make you gargantuan. Or if you take practised manifester (war mind) then you can augment expansion to make your sword Colossal!!!

Powerful charge adds 4d6 on a charge (or +6d6 for colossal)

And lets not forget all the damage from a maxed out power leap attack.

Deep impact makes it unlikely you will miss, but furious charge and PLC adds at least 5 to your attack, your STR and attack bonus from the increase in size should help also.

At higher levels, dip into barbarian and start frenzied berserker for more enhancements into power attack. Lets not forget your STR boost from your chains of offense (war mind), rage, AND frenzy.

Anything that doesn't die on your attack is most likely a god or your DM cheating.

It says core in the title you know.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Anything that doesn't die on your attack is most likely a god or your DM cheating.I've seen multiple builds at ECL 13 that could survive arbitrarily large amounts of damage. The 1d2 Crusader can't keep them down. And that's not even considering stuff like Miss Chances and Ironguard.

[SurlySeraph]

I'd go with the build Eldariel laid out for core. There's probably a way to do more with Wildshape shenanigans, but I'll leave those to someone who's better at druid optimization than I am.


I've seen multiple builds at ECL 13 that could survive arbitrarily large amounts of damage. The 1d2 Crusader can't keep them down. And that's not even considering stuff like Miss Chances and Ironguard.

Miss chances, sure. Ironguard, sure. Just soaking it up, though? I can see ways to ignore it for a while (Frenzied Berserker, Mad Foam Rager, Crusader, Stone Power), but not negate an arbitrarily high amount of damage. Could you explain how that works?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Miss chances, sure. Ironguard, sure. Just soaking it up, though? I can see ways to ignore it for a while (Frenzied Berserker, Mad Foam Rager, Crusader, Stone Power), but not negate an arbitrarily high amount of damage. Could you explain how that works?Regeneration+Immunity to Nonlethal, off the top of my head, is the most common. ToS is a good source of these tricks, and I've seen a couple other builds do similar things.

[SurlySeraph]

Ah, the Emerald Legion approach. OK, that makes sense. Thanks.

[Eldariel]

I'd go with the build Eldariel laid out for core. There's probably a way to do more with Wildshape shenanigans, but I'll leave those to someone who's better at druid optimization than I am.

You can't really do a mounted charge in a form with Pounce without serious shenanigans (all form-changing magic loses extraordinary special attacks derived from form, meaning you're stuck as a quadroped and thus NOT MOUNTED when in Pouncing form). But yeah, while casters tend to do it better, a pure Core mounted charger really has quite the impressive damage output.

[sofawall]

I'd go with the build Eldariel laid out for core. There's probably a way to do more with Wildshape shenanigans, but I'll leave those to someone who's better at druid optimization than I am.



Miss chances, sure. Ironguard, sure. Just soaking it up, though? I can see ways to ignore it for a while (Frenzied Berserker, Mad Foam Rager, Crusader, Stone Power), but not negate an arbitrarily high amount of damage. Could you explain how that works?

Any way to temp ignore damage+drowning.

Regeneration+immunity to nonlethal damage.

[ericgrau]

In the second round, the charger charges for 20 2:1 power attack x3, or 120 bonus damage. That's without factoring in any other type of damage.
And misses b/c he has neither shock trooper nor wraithstrike.

Ya pretty much all you have is mounted combat tree, a lance, and rage or the fighter tree or smite. And yeah dragon disciple is a good PrC for it. Pump your strength. You're looking at ~25 or so base damage that gets multiplied (to 75), plus a little from your weapon enchantment damage. So I wouldn't power attack for more than +2 or the misses could easily outweigh any damage you gain. Except against poorly armored opponents where you hit on a 2. All in all I think it's about 80-90 damage, plus a few d6's from weapon enchantments.

Smite could get quite a bit more I think. IIRC smite is multiplied but enchantment d6's are not, correct? Or is that only on crits?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You can't really do a mounted charge in a form with Pounce without serious shenanigans (all form-changing magic loses extraordinary special attacks derived from form, meaning you're stuck as a quadroped and thus NOT MOUNTED when in Pouncing form). But yeah, while casters tend to do it better, a pure Core mounted charger really has quite the impressive damage output.Cats can ride things. If your DM rules you must be Bipedal to ride something, go Deinonychus.

[Eldariel]

And misses b/c he has neither shock trooper nor wraithstrike.

That's why you want that True Strike :smalltongue: Though I've calculated that you can at least hit MM enemies on level 20 with decent probability not accounting for BAB. Assuming DD/Barb:

18 Base Str
+10 Levels/Tome
+6 Item
+6 Rage
+4 DD
Enlarge Person ends up ±0
for effective (To Hit-wise) Str bonus of +44 (+17).

+5 Weapon (duh)

Haste (duh)

Heroism (duh)

Competence Ioun Stone (duh)

There's...an intelligent weapon property that grants +2 Luck-bonus (other options include +3 Divine Favor through UMD and +1 through Prayer, but both seem HIGHLY unlikely here).

This places us at...+28. +30 if you account for Charge and +31 if you can charge from higher ground. +33 if we have the support of a high-level Bard or (more likely) have Greater Heroism in effect on us. 2 more if we are playing an Orc or 1 more if Half-Orc.


This would mean we hit a Balor on 1 while PAing for our entire BAB without using True Strike. Though the Luck-bonus granting Intelligent Sword can be hard to guarantee as can Greater Heroism. Still, that leaves us at +29 meaning we need a mere 6 to hit.

A fine bet from a gambler's point of view though the losses of missing are a tad high to risk it. Still, there definitely are scenarios where you can make a vindicated "PA for full!" And of course, there's always True Strike, which may once in a blue moon actually be available. Of course, if you're able to strike as Invisible to the target (e.g. Ring of Blinking vs. most things; riding may be tricky with that tho), you should be able to pull it off.


And of course, Balor with Mage Armor on alone is already much harder to hit, let alone a Pit Fiend or an Ancient Black. Still, we didn't even break out Polymorph yet. Or Weapon Focus, I guess...

[Fortuna]

*blink*

*blinkblink*

*blinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblin kblinkblinkblink*

Oh. THAT kind of Uber.

Now what can you wonderful people do with gestalt (this should be scary).

[ericgrau]

(long post you can find 2 posts up)


Forgot that you'd want a +5 weapon not bonus d6's (or both, eventually, with a spell). So my above estimate becomes about 100 damage plus a bunch of d6's.

Dragon disciple is not full BAB; but that only means that you have less BAB to PA with. Oh well. The tomes and ioun stone don't come until very late game. Even heroism doesn't last all day. So it's more like +23 or so against the 35 AC balor (really less than that against a lower AC opponent, since we're talking high level but not 20, but w/e). Okay, half the time you hit, not bad I guess. But you're far better off hitting him 95% of the time than adding a little more damage to an already high total. Why? Because 5% of 120 is 6, so past 120 damage it makes no sense to lose 5% of your damage to gain only 6 damage.

So even in the extreme high level situation outlined above we're looking at a power attack of around +6, or 2-4 more than that with buffs. Usually I'd use 2-4, with diminishing returns on the 4 b/c you're basically losing 4-5ish damage (on average) per -1 to get 6 damage per -1. Then at higher levels you start to approach the aforementioned +6 or so.

[Grumman]

Any way to temp ignore damage+drowning.
Have you ever actually played under a DM stupid and/or munchkin enough to allow this?

[Eldariel]

Forgot that you'd want a +5 weapon not bonus d6's (or both, eventually, with a spell). So my above estimate becomes about 100 damage plus a bunch of d6's.

Dragon disciple is not full BAB; but that only means that you have less BAB to PA with. Oh well. The tomes and ioun stone don't come until very late game. Even heroism doesn't last all day. So it's more like +23 or so against the 35 AC balor (really less than that against a lower AC opponent, since we're talking high level but not 20, but w/e). Okay, half the time you hit, not bad I guess. But you're far better off hitting him 95% of the time than adding a little more damage to an already high total. Why? Because 5% of 120 is 6, so past 120 damage it makes no sense to lose 5% of your damage to gain only 6 damage.

So even in the extreme high level situation outlined above we're looking at a power attack of around +6, or 2-4 more than that with buffs. Usually I'd use 2-4, with diminishing returns on the 4 b/c you're basically losing 4-5ish damage (on average) to get 6 damage per -1. Then at higher levels you start to approach the aforementioned +6 or so.

Indeed, you lose 2 BAB, but you gain slightly higher composite damage in every circumstance where you don't PA for full (most of the time without True Strike, that is). Though it's true, the highest non-Polymorph non-Pounce damage would come from a Barbarian 20 thanks to the extra 2 points of BAB and Mighty Rage. +5 weapon was accounting for Greater Magic Weapon. Heroism is 10 min/level, 3rd level spell meaning three Extends lasts it all day (well, 18 hours at any rate). Provided a caster in the party, it seems like a safe bet. And yeah, that was on level 20, hence accounting for the Tomes and Ioun Stone.

And yeah, PAing for more is a huge risk, but on the other hand, it's just one die roll. You need to get slightly luckier in that roll for greater returns; not something you want to risk on consistent basis and not a good risk mathematically, but one that can pay off big time in practice. 2-4 is DEFINITELY too few; even just +23 (which also doesn't account for Charge-bonuses, higher ground or such) means you're looking at +41, so you PA for a minimum of 8 points with no losses vs. Balor, Tarrasque and other AC 35s. Vs. AC 40s...well, you can still score them flat-footed, denied Dex-bonus to AC or other things for massive damage.

[ericgrau]

Short point was that with every buff there is you might power attacking for -10ish at level 20 (but not more, and only with a friggin' bard in the party), but at levels 5-15 you're better of power attacking for 2-4, and even 16-18 isn't so high. Levels 1-4 you'd probably PA as much BAB as you have, i.e. 1-4. Maybe 6 at a brief peak at level 6 or so, depending on the enemy.

Anyhoo, so far I see ~100 damage, plus a bunch of d6's, and at level 20 up to 50 more damage with careful preparation and ally help. Or more on occasion with a quickened true strike. Any more ideas? Does smite get multiplied or not?

[Eldariel]

Short point was that with every buff there is you might power attacking for -10 at level 20 (but not more), but at levels 1-15 you're better of power attacking for 2-4, and even 16-18 isn't so high.

Depends on the opponent; on 20 you can often PA for full if you win Initiative or are fighting a low AC opponent (á la Balor or Tarrasque) or have Brilliant Energy Lance against armored opponents or...just have too many buffs in effect (honestly, you can even reach +38 if you start dipping into stuff like Righteous Might, Divine Favor and so on, but that starts to edge into the Giamonk Unrealism Levels where you somehow have infinite buff rounds and so on, so not going there).

But yeah, the amount you can PA for drops sharply as you drop the levels. Even on 15, on Charge, you might only be able to PA for ~+5-+8. I'd say you can still guarantee on Heroism there, and might have the Ioun Stone (it's surprisingly good for the money since it boosts all Skill-checks and Saves too). However, it's worth noting that Ring of Blinking is more reliable on these levels (if you somehow bypass the pesky riding-related limitations it incurs) which, while giving you a set 20% miss chance, enables you to PA for full vs. most opponents due to striking as Invisible only negated by True Seeing. Same with Invisibility, though more things negate that and it's really so far from reliable on these levels it's not even funny.


In short, my point is that the amount you can PA for is directly proportional to the amount of magical support you have access to, and the amount of work you're willing to put into (and the amount of tools you have vs. the opponent you're fighting presently) penetrating/debuffing opponent's AC.

In many a scenario, even simple factors like flat-footedness enable heavy PA. In static, fair combat situation where both sides are aware of each other and fight without buffs, of course PA is notably less useful than when surprise, outside assistance and such come into play. The latter seems like a more common scenario for campaigns though.


Anyhoo, so far I see ~100 damage, plus a bunch of d6's, and at level 20 up to 50 more damage with careful preparation and ally help. Or more on occasion with a quickened true strike. Any more ideas? Does smite get multiplied or not?

Smite gets multiplied. FE does too, as does any static, numeric bonus. Though I think we're way over 200 already. I'll do math, moment.

[ericgrau]

Smite is up to +60 then, and 3-5/day is enough I suppose, at least when you get to later level. Yeah, that's 200 easy at level 20, though less not too much before then. Might want to use smite, or calculate both a pally and a barbarian. I'd separate out PA b/c how much you use varies so much. Just a suggestion. I'm too lazy to do the work myself.

[Eldariel]

Tripled:
- 2d6 (large Lance) for average 7 damage
- +5 Weapon for 5 damage
- +30 from +20 Str (this is an Enlarged Orc with 18 Str)
- +36 from PA for 18
- +2 Luck from the Intelligent Weapon Property (if we're maximizing; this is 80k or so)

Total: 80

Not tripled:
- +5d6 from Holy Frost Fiery Shocking weapon; I suppose if we had the other alignment component or Bane guessed correctly, we'd get a bit more, but can't count on that (hell, this is a lot of assumptions already).

Total: 20(.5)

So we get 80*3+20 for 260.

EDIT: Well, PA is 108 points of that, so no PA is mere 152 damage. Hmm, and Barbarian 20 would have +4 PA, -2 Str meaning a total of 6 points more damage (at -1 to hit). So 266.

And the Paladin does 308 for a Smite (but your To Hit gets -5 and you cannot cast True Strike, making for some trouble on that front...though I suppose you'll have the Cha to make up for that). PA is clean 120 of that, so 188 without it.

EDIT#2: Fixed Paladin damage calculations. +15 Str for +22 damage, +40 PA, +20 Smite are the correct deviations.

[Eldariel]

*blink*

*blinkblink*

*blinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblin kblinkblinkblink*

Oh. THAT kind of Uber.

Now what can you wonderful people do with gestalt (this should be scary).

Gestalt in Core? That's not gonna be impressive damage-wise...outside using a caster, which of course is nuts. You could get like...Greater Weapon Spec + Dragon Disciple + Rage + full Smite reasonably, but yeah... You aren't even going above 500 that way.

Cleric with Righteous Might/Divine Favor/whatever would reach higher number, and of course using PAO/Polymorph/Shapechange goes even higher. And then there's the "Mounted vs. Pounce vs. doing both...somehow". Dinosaurs riding Dinosaurs just sounds wrong.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Cleric with Righteous Might/Divine Favor/whatever would reach higher number, and of course using PAO/Polymorph/Shapechange goes even higher. And then there's the "Mounted vs. Pounce vs. doing both...somehow". Dinosaurs riding Dinosaurs just sounds wrong.What about Raptors on Tigers?

Edit:Scratch that, I think I stole the idea from a SciFi original movie.

[Samb]

It says core in the title you know.

Can that really be called "uber" then? More like mildly annoying charger.

[golentan]

My personal recommendation for core melee builds above level 8ish? Use as your base, a Half Dragon Orc, mounted paladin. You wind up getting an obscene strength (+12 racial mod), letting you full out power attack with a good chance to hit and adding an additional 45 damage. So at ECL 8, 2 handed lance, you can dish out 57 (strength x 4.5) + 15 (smite x 3) + 30 (Power attack x 3) damage, before worrying about lances and the like, or crits, with a +15 to hit on a charge, or sit back and take your sweet time at a third that a shot. You easily splat things across the room

[Lycanthromancer]

An awakened leopard druid riding his tiger animal companion, with a bunch of buffs, holding on via an exotic saddle, and using the Mounted Combat tree and wielding a +1 dancing lance. Of speed. With greater magic weapon.

If psionics is allowed (some consider it core), psywars do it better.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Have you ever actually played under a DM stupid and/or munchkin enough to allow this?

Have you ever actually played under a DM stupid and/or munchkin enough to allow uberchargers? This is mostly theoretical.

[Arakune]

Have you ever actually played under a DM stupid and/or munchkin enough to allow uberchargers? This is mostly theoretical.

? Shook Trop, Leap Attack, THF, Power Attack and Pounce like ability is far from the real ubercharging. To be an ubercharger you need to deal at least 1000 damage per charge.

[Person_Man]

Druid 20. Buff yourself. Wildshape into things with Pounce. Remember that dinosaurs and Dire Animals both count as animals. And you're set.

[Ormagoden]

Duskblade X

All wonderful charging feats + A nasty charging lance + Some high damage spell.

[ericgrau]

Druid 20. Buff yourself. Wildshape into things with Pounce. Remember that dinosaurs and Dire Animals both count as animals. And you're set.

I'd be curious what the numbers are for this in core, if you don't mind doing the work :smalltongue:. I remember a thread where someone was deciding between a wildshape form with pounce and other without. They were pretty close but the one w/o was still better by a nose because of AB, damage, HP and other such things.

And if I-dunno-how-you'd-both-get-it-made-and-how-you-upgrade-it-to-a-new-form-later-even-if-your-DM-allows-it and you have custom magic items made for your wildshape form, I'd like to see stats with and without the custom items.

[Foryn Gilnith]

To be an ubercharger you need to deal at least 1000 damage per charge.

Hence why I did indeed bold the "uber" part. The "this" in question was referring to things like 1d2 crusaders. It's sort of irrelevant and I should stop clogging the thread.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Knight//Paladin 10 Cavalier 10

Get a Celestial Dire Rhino as a mount, a +5 Lance and Mounted Combat tree. Charge at full speed and get "2" lance attacks. Make it a winged celestial dire rhino and you divebomb to charge

[sofawall]

? Shook Trop, Leap Attack, THF, Power Attack and Pounce like ability is far from the real ubercharging. To be an ubercharger you need to deal at least 1000 damage per charge.

Well, let's see. Power Attack for full at 20 gives 40. 80 if Frenzied Berzerker. 160 when you add Leap attack. Tripled for Spirited Charge. Times 5 for Pounce.

Looks like over 2000 damage, before str or weapons. Cool.

EDIT: Let's see. Without Mounted Combat, what do I do.

18+4 rage+10 frenzy+4 orc+5 tome+5hd+6item gives 21 damage. +5 weapon with Collision property gives me 10 more. We'll toss on... Oh, 10 damage from somewhere. Drawing a blank.

EDIT2: Aren't I silly. Flaming/Frost/Holy etc.

[Fiery Diamond]

Can that really be called "uber" then? More like mildly annoying charger.

I despise this attitude. Many people play only or primarily with core, and the several hundred damage output listed is very impressive to us. I actually have a problem with too much from outside core because of the ridiculous cheese that people with your stance see as normal. To summarize, yes, it can be called Uber. Not mildly annoying.

[Eldariel]

Well, let's see. Power Attack for full at 20 gives 40. 80 if Frenzied Berzerker. 160 when you add Leap attack. Tripled for Spirited Charge. Times 5 for Pounce.

Looks like over 2000 damage, before str or weapons. Cool.

EDIT: Let's see. Without Mounted Combat, what do I do.

18+4 rage+10 frenzy+4 orc+5 tome+5hd+6item gives 21 damage. +5 weapon with Collision property gives me 10 more. We'll toss on... Oh, 10 damage from somewhere. Drawing a blank.

EDIT2: Aren't I silly. Flaming/Frost/Holy etc.

Eh, add Headlong Rush [Races of Faerun] for extra multiplication, Valorous Weapon for another extra multiplication, Surge of Fortune for natural 20 and Bless Weapon for automatic crit confirmation (Kaorti Resin Lance for x4 Crit), Battle Jump for doubled Str, Lance of Vaulting and all that nonsense for a thousand or four per hit. Then hit 5 times for ~20k damage.


I despise this attitude. Many people play only or primarily with core, and the several hundred damage output listed is very impressive to us. I actually have a problem with too much from outside core because of the ridiculous cheese that people with your stance see as normal. To summarize, yes, it can be called Uber. Not mildly annoying.

Ubercharger is the name of a TO build specifically built to absolutely maximize the damage. As such, it's incorrect term usage.

[Aldizog]

I despise this attitude. Many people play only or primarily with core, and the several hundred damage output listed is very impressive to us. I actually have a problem with too much from outside core because of the ridiculous cheese that people with your stance see as normal. To summarize, yes, it can be called Uber. Not mildly annoying.
I agree. A core-only build that can kill nearly any CR-appropriate Core monster in a single hit (other than dragons or the Tarrasque) is already very powerful in the right circumstances. When monsters are supposed to last for at least a few rounds against an entire party, a PC that can one-shot a balor, pit fiend, or titan is decidedly uber.

(A major reason the balor got boosted in 3.5 was that it was too weak for even the most trivially optimized charger; IIRC a charging smiting paladin with 18-ish Str could kill it even without Power Attack.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I despise this attitude. Many people play only or primarily with core, and the several hundred damage output listed is very impressive to us. I actually have a problem with too much from outside core because of the ridiculous cheese that people with your stance see as normal. To summarize, yes, it can be called Uber. Not mildly annoying.Considering the non-core Uberchargers are still weaker than a core full-caster, I have trouble considering this one Uber.

[Person_Man]

I'd be curious what the numbers are for this in core, if you don't mind doing the work :smalltongue:. I remember a thread where someone was deciding between a wildshape form with pounce and other without. They were pretty close but the one w/o was still better by a nose because of AB, damage, HP and other such things.

I'm too lazy to do the math. The short answer is that it depends on your level, and how long you'd be willing to sit there and cast spells to buff yourself. Level 8ish is really the sweet spot, when you get access to the megaraptor.

Also, keep in mind that having a ton of reach is often indistinguishable from having Pounce (ie, either will allow you to make a full attack every turn), and in fact it's often better. For example, a giant squid gets 30 ft of reach, 11 attacks, and Improved Grab.

[ericgrau]

^ Ha yeah I was too lazy too. But I was just saying that the forms that do get so many attacks also get nerfed in other areas like damage (otherwise they'd have a higher CR, wouldn't they?), so if someone less lazy comes along it'd be interesting to see what the results are.


Considering the non-core Uberchargers are still weaker than a core full-caster, I have trouble considering this one Uber.

In a low powergame group, which I agree is fairly common in face-to-face games, one shotting a common enemy regardless of whether or not he makes a save is just plain nice period. Depending on your group the ideas presented thus far may be useful.