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Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-16, 09:01 PM
I keep seeing the "wish economy" being brought up on this forum. As I understand it, the wish economy is based around the fact that some creatures have wish as a Sp or Su ability. One question this brings to my mind is: how many creatures actually can produce wish as a Sp or Su effect?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-16, 09:05 PM
I keep seeing the "wish economy" being brought up on this forum. As I understand it, the wish economy is based around the fact that some creatures have wish as a Sp or Su ability. One question this brings to my mind is: how many creatures actually can produce wish as a Sp or Su effect?An infinite number of Effreeti, Solars, and similar. The main issue is the Effreeti, which can be snagged by Planar Binding.

Note: It's not just Wish that causes it, it's just that Wish is the easiest way to do so and sets a nice, even line. Casters can get infinite wealth fairly easily with certain spells. The upper limit for it is the Effreeti's 15K, but other Wishes are even better at it, going to 25K.

Assassin89
2009-12-16, 09:06 PM
I can think of a few from Core

Solar
Pit fiend (1/year)
Glabrezu (1/month)
Efreeti (3 wishes/day)
Noble Djinn

Thurbane
2009-12-16, 09:07 PM
Answer: even one is too many.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-16, 09:09 PM
Seems I need to clarify. I meant, how many types of creatures can produce wishes. You've named two: Effreeti and Solar Angels. What else?

Assassin89
2009-12-16, 09:13 PM
Seems I need to clarify. I meant, how many types of creatures can produce wishes. You've named two: Effreeti and Solar Angels. What else?

Two more are the Pit Fiend (devil) and the Glabrezu (demon)

So, mostly outsiders produce wishes.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-16, 09:20 PM
How else can a caster produce infinite wealth?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-16, 09:22 PM
Wall of Iron, Pillar of Salt, Stone to Flesh, or even Craft Wondrous Item and custom traps. It's not hard, and starts being viable by about level 6.

satorian
2009-12-16, 09:22 PM
And very easy with Genesis.

Arakune
2009-12-16, 09:24 PM
And very easy with Genesis.

Genesis is just silly. Combined with auto-reseting trap of genesis it just becomes unfair...

industrious
2009-12-16, 09:25 PM
Bind a nightmare. Force it to astrally project you to Sigil. Sell all of your astral gear. End the spell. Force the nightmare to astrally project you to Sigil. Sell all of your astral gear. End the spell. Force the nightmare...


Cast Genesis. You specify that your demiplane is made of solid platinum. You are now wealthy beyond your wildest dreams. You can "buy" XP from NPCs at a rate of 5gp per XP. Convert 25K of your platinum to XP. Cast Genesis...

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-16, 09:44 PM
Hmm.... Can't find pillar of salt, or genesis. Astral Projection doesn't say anything about getting astral copies of your gear though.

Milskidasith
2009-12-16, 09:47 PM
Hmm.... Can't find pillar of salt, or genesis. Astral Projection doesn't say anything about getting astral copies of your gear though.

Genesis is in the SRD. Astral Projection does say your gear is copied.


By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.

You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.

You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-16, 09:54 PM
Found the Psionic power genesis. Specifically says the demiplane can't be made entirely of precious metals, and one could (should) argue that when astral projection ends the copies created disappear, not that it matters if you can't get to sigil to claim your "hard earned" loot.

Surgo
2009-12-16, 09:55 PM
Something to remember that gets lost in these discussions is that creating wealth through wish or other spells is a job. It's not infinite wealth -- at least, it's not any more infinite than any other jobs. It's just a job that's much better paying than most other jobs.

The Wish Economy was first described in detail in the Tomes. The relevant sections are:
* The Economicon (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Economicon)
* The Three (or so) Economies (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Gears_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Treasure_and_the_World#The_Three_.28or_so.29_Econo mies)
* No Wishing For More Wishes! (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Optional_Rules#No_Wishing_for_More_Wishes.21)

The important creature is the Efreet, which can be bound via Planar Binding at level 11 at will. The Efreet will then do whatever you want, because it's a pathetically weak creature compared to a level 11 spellcaster.

erikun
2009-12-16, 09:55 PM
Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm)

Basically, any spell that permanently produces something which can be sold can ultimately give infinite wealth. Actually, so can Craft and Profession checks when you get down to it...

Zom B
2009-12-16, 09:57 PM
And very easy with Genesis.

Oh, yeah, sure, including Phil Collins into your repertoire is indeed a good way to earn more money.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-16, 09:57 PM
Found the Psionic power genesis. Specifically says the demiplane can't be made entirely of precious metals, and one could (should) argue that when astral projection ends the copies created disappear, not that it matters if you can't get to sigil to claim your "hard earned" loot.The arcane and divine versions allow various abuses that aren't allowed in the psionic version, including making the whole thing out of solid platinum, and giving it the flowing time (very very very fast) trait.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-16, 10:11 PM
So where is the spell version of genesis?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-16, 10:14 PM
So where is the spell version of genesis?http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 10:22 PM
Wall of Iron, Pillar of Salt, Stone to Flesh, or even Craft Wondrous Item and custom traps. It's not hard, and starts being viable by about level 6.

That's only if people want to buy your crap. The problem with price fixing isn't supply; it's demand.


An infinite number of Effreeti, Solars, and similar. The main issue is the Effreeti, which can be snagged by Planar Binding.

I thought there were only an infinite number of demons. Are there any explicit rules that there are an infinite number of Solars?

Siosilvar
2009-12-16, 10:25 PM
That's only if people want to buy your crap. The problem with price fixing isn't supply; it's demand.



I thought there were only an infinite number of demons. Are there any explicit rules that there are an infinite number of Solars?

One would assume, since the planes are all infinite, that they have an infinite number of angels/devils/other things.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 10:26 PM
One would assume, since the planes are all infinite, that they have an infinite number of angels/devils/other things.

I'm not sure why you would make that assumption, though. You can have a finite quality inside of an infinite space.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-16, 10:32 PM
I'm not sure why you would make that assumption, though. You can have a finite quality inside of an infinite space.

It's a fairly safe assumption. It's not like there's a big "Void" zone in celestial planes where there isn't anything, and said zone takes up large quantities of infinity.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-16, 10:47 PM
It's a fairly safe assumption. It's not like there's a big "Void" zone in celestial planes where there isn't anything, and said zone takes up large quantities of infinity.

Why not? That seems to be more or less how the real world is. (Although, not "infinite" so much as "really, really big", if I'm up-to-date on my cosmology.)

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 10:51 PM
It's a fairly safe assumption. It's not like there's a big "Void" zone in celestial planes where there isn't anything, and said zone takes up large quantities of infinity.

Celestia is composed of 7 contained infinite planes. There doesn't need to be any void, since the space doesn't exist in the way we're familiar with space.

Tavar
2009-12-16, 11:10 PM
Celestia is composed of 7 contained infinite planes. There doesn't need to be any void, since the space doesn't exist in the way we're familiar with space.

Granted, this is dnd, but those bolded words made me do a double take.

Fortuna
2009-12-16, 11:25 PM
It is no more mind-boggling than the fact that the continuum infinity is greater than aleph-1.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 11:49 PM
Granted, this is dnd, but those bolded words made me do a double take.

You can have a vector space of finite dimensions with infinitely large vectors in it.

If I'm remembering my linear algebra correctly.

tyckspoon
2009-12-16, 11:51 PM
That's only if people want to buy your crap. The problem with price fixing isn't supply; it's demand.


How wonderful it is for our enterprising merchant mage, then, that the same levels that provide the spells that create infinite trade goods also provide the means to locate and reach customers in nearly any part of the world! Truly magic is wonderful.

Really, now- Wall of Stone, Teleport, and Contact Other Plane are all level 5 spells. Contact Other Plan to find out who in the near future is going to have call for large quantities of stone (or just Gather Information, if you don't feel like pestering the outer planes for that relatively trivial information. It shouldn't be all that hard to find out who wants some more castles or is raising a cathedral in honor of the gods.) Teleport out there. Sell a few castings of Wall of Stone. Repeat until desired wealth is reached.

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 11:55 PM
How wonderful it is for our enterprising merchant mage, then, that the same levels that provide the spells that create infinite trade goods also provide the means to locate and reach customers in nearly any part of the world! Truly magic is wonderful.

Really, now- Wall of Stone, Teleport, and Contact Other Plane are all level 5 spells. Contact Other Plan to find out who in the near future is going to have call for large quantities of stone (or just Gather Information, if you don't feel like pestering the outer planes for that relatively trivial information. It shouldn't be all that hard to find out who wants some more castles or is raising a cathedral in honor of the gods.) Teleport out there. Sell a few castings of Wall of Stone. Repeat until desired wealth is reached.

I hear there's a lot of competition. Some say an infinite amount of it.

tyckspoon
2009-12-16, 11:59 PM
Yeah, there probably is. The biggest impediment to doing it is not that the mechanics don't work. It's simply that, unless you are one of the very few people of this power level in the world, somebody else has probably beat you to the market. Most game worlds aren't that thoughtful about the impact of the magic they include, tho, and so you can often make a killing by being the first one to think of doing it in-character (and accidentally revolutionize several aspects of the world. World-hopping Wizards offering instant constructions just doesn't fit with D&D's normal default world.. bonus points if you have a musician with a Lyre of Building tag along with you.)

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 08:18 AM
A plane-hopping merchant mage sounds great on paper, but there are many dangers.

1) Plane Shift is not precise, so you can frequently land in dangerous parts of the planes you're going to. Even the Upper Planes frown on mortals popping in and out laden with packs, and their denizens may not have a problem Questing/MoJing you until you learn your lesson. (Even the CG ones may decide to play well-intentioned but nasty pranks on you.)

2) There are predators on and between planes, which your plane hopping might easily take you to. For example, those spiders on the astral plane that lay dormant until astral travelers come near. (MM3?)

3) The activities of high-leveled characters are easy to track (high level = 11 or more), thus powerful beings can become aware of your comings and goings. You astrally project to sell your stuff in Sigil, some demons may decide to hop into your empty shell while you're away. Or you run into an astral monster that breaks your cord. Or a thieving deity (like Mask) decides to have his church dip into your profits.

4) More precise means of travel have their own dangers. Gate is literally a two-way street, Wish drains your experience, and Miracle is subject to deific approval.

5) There's the simple idea that your services may just not be needed. For those people wanting to sell platinum and stone and what have you between planes, the Plane of Earth has all those things in abundant supply. You could be stepping on some very prominent toes by elbowing into their market.

6) Finally, your biggest issue is probably going to be other wizards/clerics who had the same idea you did. A Duergar cleric or Drow wizard who came up with this scheme is probably not going to be very tolerant of your presence.

Surgo
2009-12-17, 09:15 AM
My question with Wall of Stone is why bother? If you wait two levels you'll have more free wishes than you can use.

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-17, 09:41 AM
My question with Wall of Stone is why bother? If you wait two levels you'll have more free wishes than you can use.

Two levels is a long time. Gotta fill the boredom somehow.

Argo
2009-12-19, 08:24 PM
I got boat payments!