Soon, Shojo, and the Sapphire Guard

[Sir_Elderberry]

Alright, it's been a while since I read this part of the comic, but all the discussion about Soon, Shojo, oaths, paladinness, and what-not that have sprung up from the Girard incident has forced me to ask: Why does an order of paladins swear anyone in as their leader without casting Detect Chaos?

[Kish]

Do they even have Detect Chaos as a class spell?

[Shale]

Because they don't have any say in who their leader is. Leadership of the Sapphire Guard vests in the ruler of the city, and Shojo was the ruler of the city. I haven't done the math, but I'm willing to bet any members of a secret order of 3.5e paladins who decided to openly overthrow the legitimate ruler of the city they're sworn to protect would fall pretty damn quick.

[Dark_Stryke]

Maybe they were just dumb? It's possible that they trusted Shojo simply because Soon Kim entrusted leadership of the Saphhire guard to Shojo's father.

Alternatively, Shojo is a pretty shrewd guy, so he may have simply rigged whatever test they use to determine his alignment in some way. I'm sure there's a magic item somewhere that would make him show up as Lawful for the purposes of detection spells.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Do they even have Detect Chaos as a class spell?
Well, they have other spellcasters, multiclassed characters...etc

Maybe I'm missing something here. How entrenched in city government is the Sapphire Guard? I thought they essentially were the government. And I recognize that Shojo was the legitimate ruler, and a good paladin wouldn't have gone against him if they had later found out that he was Chaotic (see: Miko). However, my point is that before they do that. He has to take the paladin oaths pertaining to the gates and such, but is not himself a paladin. Well, fair enough, not everyone can be. But you'd think they'd do some cursory alignment checks to make sure they're not putting in a madman, especially considering the existence of people like Miko who have no problem spamming Detect Evil. (She may be extreme, but she cant' be the only one.)

As for disguising it, while I remember 3.5 had a spell for concealing your alignment, I don't remember it having one for outright faking it. (Although I suppose "Look, I'm neutral good, alright?" would have worked.)

I guess I'm just a bit off-put by "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" compared with how all those paladins were actually run.

[SaintRidley]

Maybe they were just dumb? It's possible that they trusted Shojo simply because Soon Kim entrusted leadership of the Saphhire guard to Shojo's father.

Alternatively, Shojo is a pretty shrewd guy, so he may have simply rigged whatever test they use to determine his alignment in some way. I'm sure there's a magic item somewhere that would make him show up as Lawful for the purposes of detection spells.

A homebrewed lawful-based version of the Ordered Chaos feat (Fiendish Codex I) would be the sort of thing that would work.

[Conuly]

I thought they essentially were the government.

Weren't they more like the secret police? Didn't Hinjo complain that he couldn't spend his free gift cards in the name because nobody knew the SG existed?

[slayerx]

Well their are a few things you have to remember... for instance, how the ruler of azure city is chosen. As it stands the ruler is chosen based on a monarchy system. Even if the paladins knew that Shojo was chaotic before he took the throne what would they do? If they wanted to a lawful ruler, what excuse to they have to stop shojo from taking the throne... afterall we have to remember the nobles and the people of azure city. Removing the rightful heir and replacing him with someone else would have seemed suspicious and raised questions as to why it was being done. As far as i see it, the reason the paladins allowed Shojo to become the ruler is because the system was not built to allow their interference; they were pretty much powerless unless the would be rule committed some criminal action that would result in his removal.

So why did the paladins allow shojo to take the throne? their was really nothing they could do based upon the choice of system for the gov't...

What we should really be asking is why didn't shojo's father raise him to be lawful? Why he did not have him follow the path of the paladin like Hinjo did?

Or perhaps why Soon did not move to have the gov't changed to a somewhat different system such as one where the ruler can name his heir, or make it so that that power hierarchy to inheriting the throne revolved around ranking as a paladin? not sure exactly, but the general gist changing it to a system that took into account the possibility that the some future prince might be raised wrong or something and thus need for the king to make sure someone else gets the throne.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Thing is, Soon isn't Shojo's grandfather. Shojo's father was selected by Soon. It's not like there's a long-standing dynastic tradition, here, this is a relatively new country.

[MReav]

Thing is, Soon isn't Shojo's grandfather. Shojo's father was selected by Soon. It's not like there's a long-standing dynastic tradition, here, this is a relatively new country.

No, Azure City is pretty well established. Shojo's dad was chosen by Soon to be leader of the Sapphire Guard (which incidentally is separate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html) from the Sapphire Guard). Soon probably trusted Shojo's father with the Sapphire Guard because he knew him well enough that he could trust him.

[Pooka]

Thing is, Soon isn't Shojo's grandfather. Shojo's father was selected by Soon. It's not like there's a long-standing dynastic tradition, here, this is a relatively new country.

In 277, it appears that Shojo's father is already the king of the country or city or whatever you want to call it, and that Soon was just transferring to him the command of the paladins.

Also, you're making the assumption that Shojo was 'raised wrong'. It's possible that Soon understood that the paladins needed a mitigating, less rigid overseer.

[Optimystik]

For the same reason they don't walk around Detecting Evil all the time - people only get suspicious of others when they have reason to be.

Unless they're Miko, anyway. (Ironically, she could have saved herself a lot of trouble by Detecting Shojo.)

[Dire Moose]

Because they don't have any say in who their leader is. Leadership of the Sapphire Guard vests in the ruler of the city, and Shojo was the ruler of the city. I haven't done the math, but I'm willing to bet any members of a secret order of 3.5e paladins who decided to openly overthrow the legitimate ruler of the city they're sworn to protect would fall pretty damn quick.
Not always. In the background of my current campaign, the Order of Heironeous was the elite fighting force of a vast kingdom. Fifty years before the start of the campaign, the king died and his two identical twin sons fought a massive war over the kingdom. The Order subsequently rebelled, exiling them from the capital city and forcing an agreement to end the war, dividing the kingdom into three parts.

A paladin is not bound to support a leader who is clearly acting against the greater good in my opinion (no matter how legitimate his claim to the throne may be), and actually has a duty to stop such abuses of power. This is likely what Miko thought she was doing when she killed Lord Shojo, except that she had read the entire situation wrongly.

[Pooka]

Not always. In the background of my current campaign, the Order of Heironeous was the elite fighting force of a vast kingdom. Fifty years before the start of the campaign, the king died and his two identical twin sons fought a massive war over the kingdom. The Order subsequently rebelled, exiling them from the capital city and forcing an agreement to end the war, dividing the kingdom into three parts.

A paladin is not bound to support a leader who is clearly acting against the greater good in my opinion (no matter how legitimate his claim to the throne may be), and actually has a duty to stop such abuses of power. This is likely what Miko thought she was doing when she killed Lord Shojo, except that she had read the entire situation wrongly.

I believe D&D books have flat out said that Paladins are only obligated to obey leaders if they're behaving in a generally Lawful and Good way. Otherwise you get into situations where the Law part comes into conflict with the Good part.

[slayerx]

Not always. In the background of my current campaign, the Order of Heironeous was the elite fighting force of a vast kingdom. Fifty years before the start of the campaign, the king died and his two identical twin sons fought a massive war over the kingdom. The Order subsequently rebelled, exiling them from the capital city and forcing an agreement to end the war, dividing the kingdom into three parts.

A paladin is not bound to support a leader who is clearly acting against the greater good in my opinion (no matter how legitimate his claim to the throne may be), and actually has a duty to stop such abuses of power. This is likely what Miko thought she was doing when she killed Lord Shojo, except that she had read the entire situation wrongly.

Your scenerio is a bad analogy for Shojo and the saphire guard... namely that shojo's only wrong doing until he got caught breaking his oath was be "non-lawful", where as the twin brother in your campaign started a civil war.

What you have to take into account is on what grounds the paladins would be removing the ruler, or would-be ruler, cause in the ends the citizens may have the true final say... you try to remove a ruler based on alignment alone, and the citizens are likely to rebel against the princes removal and be unsupportive of the new ruler... you remove them because of they are warring between eachother and the citizens will likely support the removal... essentially, they can not remove or prevent shojo's rise as ruler unless shojo actually done something that would make the people seriously loose faith in him and agree he should be removed... so really they would have to wait until shojo's chaotic alignment actually DOES show its self to be a problem; otherwise the paladins will look like they are just overthrowing the ruler, a rather tyrannical action, instead of enforcing the will of the people by keeping the ruler in check

[The Extinguisher]

For the same reason they don't walk around Detecting Evil all the time - people only get suspicious of others when they have reason to be.

Unless they're Miko, anyway. (Ironically, she could have saved herself a lot of trouble by Detecting Shojo.)

No, at that point she was convinced that everyone was evil, even if Detect Evil said otherwise.

[Zxo]

I believe D&D books have flat out said that Paladins are only obligated to obey leaders if they're behaving in a generally Lawful and Good way. Otherwise you get into situations where the Law part comes into conflict with the Good part.

Behaving is the key word here. Chaotic alignment doesn't mean you go sowing chaos all the time (unless you're Elan...:smallcool:) - you may freely choose to obey certain rules, as means to an end or because you like the people who ask you to, or for whatever reason other than actually believing in law. Haley is chaotic and isn't she most of the time a team-player who obeys Roy's orders?
Shojo may have been an eccentric, but I believe he didn't do anything destructively chaotic that would harm someone or cause a major problem in things that matter for the paladins, like defending the city.

[factotum]

I have to ask: why would it worry them that their leader is Chaotic? If they knew he was Evil then that's heading for instant Fall territory, but there's nothing in the Paladin Code that prevents them associating with a Chaotic person, or EVEN TAKING ORDERS FROM ONE. They sure as heck knew Shojo wasn't himself a Paladin--it would be kind of hard to hide that!

[Pooka]

Behaving is the key word here. Chaotic alignment doesn't mean you go sowing chaos all the time (unless you're Elan...:smallcool:) - you may freely choose to obey certain rules, as means to an end or because you like the people who ask you to, or for whatever reason other than actually believing in law. Haley is chaotic and isn't she most of the time a team-player who obeys Roy's orders?
Shojo may have been an eccentric, but I believe he didn't do anything destructively chaotic that would harm someone or cause a major problem in things that matter for the paladins, like defending the city.

Right. Basically what I'm saying is that a Paladin can serve a Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good, or True Neutral, or even Chaotic Good ruler (though this is getting into unlikely territory), so long as the service and the ruler both generally serve lawful and/or good ends.

Of course, this depends somewhat on the DM and the gods involved, I suppose, but for example, a Paladin should have no problem working with a Chaotic Good leader to oppose an evil tyrant or a slaver, even though both of those may in fact be lawful, so long as the Paladin's god doesn't care more about blind adherence to rules than justice and honor. I would even think, logically, that gods like Pelor, Ilmater, or Lathander, would even likely turn a blind eye to necessary Chaos in the support of Good, compared to...say...Helm or St Cuthbert, who would likely be more strict and demanding.

[Dark_Stryke]

A homebrewed lawful-based version of the Ordered Chaos feat (Fiendish Codex I) would be the sort of thing that would work.

I never actually read Fiendish Codex I, despite a friend's urging. Oh well, Shojo's alignment (and ability to hide it) seems like a moot point in that he was ruler of the city by hereditary right, and leader of the sapphire guard presumably because his father passed the position on to him.