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Zedd
2009-12-16, 10:27 PM
I'm sorry if this has been posted already, I just lurked over (and quickly) the other threads about 695 and none seems to have proposed this:
(I included it in spoilers because I'm not familiar with the policies on posting things from the most recent comics)

the gate is right there. What better way of hiding something from a single person (Soon) than giving them coordinates, making them swear that they'll never go there... and when they do go there, after an ardous quest, you tell them "It was a test, you failed, here goes big boom"

Seems to me that even those not so strongly committed to their word (as a paladin undoubtedly is) would suck it up and think "Well, I had it coming for breaking my word, I've just been outsmarted. Home I go."

Does this make any sense?
I've actually deceived people in similar manners in real life.

SadisticFishing
2009-12-16, 10:44 PM
He's not just defending it against Soon, though, I hope.

FafnerMorell
2009-12-16, 10:49 PM
That particular defense is activated by someone who had knowledge of Soon & the Sapphire Guard, and that had the precise location. So someone who possessed at least some knowledge of the Order of the Scribble.

I think Zedd has it.

Watcher
2009-12-16, 11:39 PM
Purposefully causing an explosion right next to a gate holding back the embodiment of deistic anger? Remember the last (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html) time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html) that happened? And even that was in defense of the gate in case it was in danger of an evil overlord, not a paladin you're on bad terms with on how to guard it.

FafnerMorell
2009-12-16, 11:44 PM
It was an illusion of an explosion. The gate wouldn't have been damaged a bit.

Jarawara
2009-12-16, 11:46 PM
I've actually deceived people in similar manners in real life.


You've set off huge bombs in people's faces in real life, just to convince them to go home?

Yeesh, remind me not to get on your bad side. :smallamused:

Dervag
2009-12-16, 11:54 PM
It was an illusion of an explosion. The gate wouldn't have been damaged a bit.Then why was Roy hurled through the air to crash into a nearby sand flumph?

SadisticFishing
2009-12-17, 12:01 AM
Then why was Roy hurled through the air to crash into a nearby sand flumph?

It was an Illusion of Roy. That thinks he's the real thing.

SaintRidley
2009-12-17, 12:03 AM
Then why was Roy hurled through the air to crash into a nearby sand flumph?

Epic Shadow Evocation mimicking something like Hellball.

Kish
2009-12-17, 12:03 AM
Then why was Roy hurled through the air to crash into a nearby sand flumph?
It was an illusionary Roy.

And an illusionary sand flumph.

Thanatosia
2009-12-17, 12:38 AM
I'm sorry if this has been posted already, I just lurked over (and quickly) the other threads about 695 and one seems to have proposed this:
(I included it in spoilers because I'm not familiar with the policies on posting things from the most recent comics)
[spoiler]
Seems to me that even those not so strongly committed to their word (as a paladin undoubtedly is) would suck it up and think "Well, I had it coming for breaking my word, I've just been outsmarted. Home I go."
This isn't lost car keys, this is End of/Control of the World issues being discussed here... meaning, you dont just go 'oh well, i've been outsmarted, home I go.". No, once its appearant that the gate not there, then there are 2 places you can look for the gate..... clues in the one site you know has some form of tenuous connection to the gate, and everywhere else in the world. Obviously, any such searcher is going to scour the hell out of the area looking for clues as there is no more logical place to begin a search.

The double bluff makes NO sense whatsoever, because you are calling attention to a location that would otherwise not be a location of interest at all. The last thing you want to do is call any sort of attention at all to the place where the gate realy is.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-17, 12:42 AM
Gate? what gate?

Renrik
2009-12-17, 02:12 AM
Obviously, any such searcher is going to scour the hell out of the area looking for clues as there is no more logical place to begin a search.

I think the searcher would seek out Sereni to find the coordinates. Girard made a mistake in telling where the coordinates could be found. If Soon HAD betrayed them, he could have endangered Sereni.

snikrept
2009-12-17, 05:26 AM
The terrain surrounding the coordinates given to soon, and thus to the oots, looks very different from the correct terrain surrounding the gate's location in the flashback.

Given, he is presumably an epic illusion specialist wizard, so I supppose he could have blanketed the entire region for miles around with one big illusion, given enough research.

I would guess what's more likely to get the plot moving again, rather than having Girard's lie be a double-bluff, is having Girard or his minions come investigate who triggered the spell, if only to point and laugh at Soon's charred remains.

FafnerMorell
2009-12-17, 08:24 AM
This isn't lost car keys, this is End of/Control of the World issues being discussed here... meaning, you dont just go 'oh well, i've been outsmarted, home I go.". No, once its appearant that the gate not there, then there are 2 places you can look for the gate..... clues in the one site you know has some form of tenuous connection to the gate, and everywhere else in the world. Obviously, any such searcher is going to scour the hell out of the area looking for clues as there is no more logical place to begin a search.

Yep, so it would make sense for the illusion to say something like "Serini has the true coordinates" - getting the searchers to travel off in search of her for clues. And leaving the gate safe & secure.


The double bluff makes NO sense whatsoever, because you are calling attention to a location that would otherwise not be a location of interest at all. The last thing you want to do is call any sort of attention at all to the place where the gate realy is.
How does a "real world" magician/illusionist work? By controlling & misdirecting the audience's attention. Girard is doing the same - he knows the audience is 100% focused on this location as being the gate, so he's got to get them focused on something else (the Girard/Soon rivalry), trick them into looking elsewhere (Serini), and then seal the deal with a big flash (explosion).

Lamech
2009-12-17, 09:47 AM
Yeah, that would be a rather effective trick. He says, "gates not here, but you can find it by doing Y". It would probably work on Soon. It might work on anyone who got the info from Soon. And the explosion only triggered after lots of searching and someone sent by or with information stolen from Soon. For crying out loud most of the fourm has taken Girard at face value, so if he hasn't been honest he certainly tricked people.

At the very least, I do know its a bad policy to try to infer facts from decievers. Especially epic decievers. There is no reason why we should trust Girard on anything.


The double bluff makes NO sense whatsoever, because you are calling attention to a location that would otherwise not be a location of interest at all. The last thing you want to do is call any sort of attention at all to the place where the gate realy is.No it makes perfect sense. Roy said that he had info from Soon. He already knows the gate is there (if it there.) If it is a bluff it attacks the trust of that information tells him were the gate is. Roy might very well leave now. Now Roy must ask, "crap what if it is all a trick", in fact like many on the fourms, he has assumed that he has the wrong location.

Zedd
2009-12-18, 01:53 PM
Precisely.

The best Illusionists in magic fantasy stories are those who combine the powers of playing with other senses with mind tricks and attention diverging techniques, much like real magicians do. Only real magicians can't play with your senses by altering reality, so they use special effects.

It may very well be that the gate is not there, but to say that this is an absolutely impossible theory is just wrong. Remember, that specific message and explosion was triggered with specific keywords.

For other keywords or other types of activity detected, Girard could have other mind-blowing (ba-da-psh) speeches prepared.

Say, I'm not well familiar with the story, but as I recall there's that barbarian who 'relied on strenght alone'. Assuming he/she would have a weakness for breaking bones with weapons, Girards speech for him/her (after detecting specific keywords or actions) could be: "Sorry, the gate is sealed. To unseal the gate you have to defeat three of the mighitiest monters and bring their blood here", after sending waves of monsters (real or illusionary), just to give him/her a taste.

See, I know it souds ridiculous but given that said barbarian "loves battles" he would just convince himself to go looking for the monsters elsewhere, because that strikes him better (and easier) than searching a giant desert. Needless to say, even if he did kill three epic powerful monsters and brought their blood, he'd only get an illusion saying "Nice try, but one of these is not the one I'm looking for!".

You can manipulate people really well if they have desires, weaknesses and peculiarities.. and you know them.

Sorry for the bad text, I'm in a rush and I wanted to express the idea

magic9mushroom
2009-12-18, 02:03 PM
We know that the Gate is bigger than what Vaarsuvius detected with Arcane Sight, and the Gates, being Major Artifacts, would show up as glaringly huge (Overwhelming power) on Arcane Sight.

Asta Kask
2009-12-18, 02:05 PM
Unless concealed in some way. But what Epic-level magic could trump the awesome power of Arcane Sight? :smallsmile:

magic9mushroom
2009-12-18, 02:16 PM
Unless concealed in some way. But what Epic-level magic could trump the awesome power of Arcane Sight? :smallsmile:

Well then you have the Epic-level magic itself showing up as Overwhelming on Arcane Sight. See the problem?