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Vorpalbob
2009-12-17, 02:23 AM
I was hanging out in my local gaming store the other day, and heard two guys saying that bards are in some way overpowered. I didn't hear all of their conversation, but I got the drift that they think well-built bards are overpowered not in that they are amazing at one thing, but that they are good at everything (at least more than a generalist class should be).

Any insight into this? Is this just a case of opinion, are those guys completely wrong, or are bards really that good?

I personally like bards, I think that a bard singing at the back of the group (or playing a full drum kit that he carried around in a Handy Haversack) is awesome, and they are great fun to roleplay.:smallwink:

Pluto
2009-12-17, 02:33 AM
They have spells.

That means half the PHB quakes in its boots when a Bard strolls into town.



Also they get a bad rap, so the writers didn't feel bad throwing the Bard a bone or three in just about every book. So without much effort, Bards can end up toss 9th level spells around while adding 9d6 damage to all allies' attacks, all out of a solid skillmonkey frame.

edit:
And even in Core, they can be pretty broken in an Apostle of Peace sort of way. The Fascinate/Suggestion routine on top of all their social and stealth skills can outright stop fights from happening. That kind of bones Fighters and Paladins in even another way.

Temotei
2009-12-17, 02:35 AM
Compared to a wizard, cleric, or druid, they're not overpowered.

...That's not saying much, is it?

WARNING! YOUR EYES MIGHT NOT LIKE THIS!
I don't like bards.
Also, bard is the gnome's favored class. I dislike gnomes.

BobVosh
2009-12-17, 02:37 AM
only overpowered when you take all the things to get like +10/+10 to attack and damage with an additional 10D6 to damage.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-17, 02:39 AM
Hahahaha, no.

Barring diplomancy, no. I've never seen hardcore diplomancy allowed, tbh, and it isn't really effective until higher levels anyhow.

With splatbooks, they're decent. With Sublime Chord, they're quite good...but frankly, at that point, you're basically a sorc anyhow. In core only, they're sub par.

Now, anything can be broken, sure...but with bard, you have to put in some effort. Not monk levels of effort, but it's not an obvious starting class for cheese.

Fortuna
2009-12-17, 02:56 AM
Wasn't there a bard build specifically designed to take on a batman wizard and win a while back?

BooNL
2009-12-17, 02:58 AM
Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Song of the White Raven.

These are pretty strong feats for a bard to have and will certainly up their power level. That said, by themselves they aren't that overpowered.
It's when you start factoring in ways to get your Inspire Courage multiplayer to insane levels, that's when bards break down.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-17, 02:58 AM
Probably. There are also commoner builds designed for such purposes.

This does not mean commoner is overpowered.

infinitypanda
2009-12-17, 02:59 AM
Wasn't there a bard build specifically designed to take on a batman wizard and win a while back?

It was the Joker bard, and it was for DMs only.

Temotei
2009-12-17, 03:01 AM
It was the Joker bard, and it was for DMs only.

Hehe. Joker.

Fortuna
2009-12-17, 03:05 AM
Any links to that one floating around? I have an extremely power-gamey wizard and a sorceror whose approach to character building is that it's a competition to be the best, so I would love to have that.

FMArthur
2009-12-17, 03:06 AM
I'm pretty sure that Bards have one of the easiest times of any class when boosting Diplomacy. Diplomacy is actually supposed to have fixed DCs for improving NPC attitudes towards you. Essentially, the bard can take the enemies, the combat, the problems themselves, out of most campaigns. They can't seem to rationalize their feelings, but everyone on the planet loves the bard, so much so that they would die for him! Even illithids, beholders, the BBEG, demons, devils, solars... :smalleek:

infinitypanda
2009-12-17, 03:10 AM
Shneekey the Lost's Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158#post5496158)

Once again, it's DM only. The build does not beat Batman, it just annoys the piss out of him.

BobVosh
2009-12-17, 03:43 AM
Shneekey the Lost's Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158#post5496158)

Once again, it's DM only. The build does not beat Batman, it just annoys the piss out of him.

Exactly. It isn't the most powerful as in destroy, but it can live through and annoy almost anything.

Leolo
2009-12-17, 05:17 AM
It depends on the suggested character lvl for the adventure, and what additional ressources are allowed.

At low levels bards can be very good. For example a lvl 4 bard may hit as good (or better sometimes) as the fighter and cast spells the wizard could not cast like hold person or suggestion. He also has unique abilities, a high amount of skill points and unique spells.

So bards can compete with the most other core classes at this level even in question of doing something the best in the party. The main problem is that you have to choose. You can be either moderate good in many aspects, or be very good in a single aspect. You have to select your ability scores to match the focussed aspect, too. So good bards need a lot of planning.

And other classes may optimize, too. At later levels they are at least easier to optimize.

But there are a lot of groups playing at low levels, and so high level disadvantages may not concern you at all. Even with them bards are not that bad at high levels, they simple fall back behind the strongest classes.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-17, 05:31 AM
Shneekey the Lost's Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158#post5496158)

Once again, it's DM only. The build does not beat Batman, it just annoys the piss out of him.

Clarification: It's "DMs only" in the sense that it works best as a BBEG; the concept works fine for someone planning to encounter well-prepared enemy casters, and in fact someone in my group is working on a Joker Bard build for our next campaign.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-17, 06:25 AM
Also they get a bad rap, so the writers didn't feel bad throwing the Bard a bone or three in just about every book. So without much effort, Bards can end up toss 9th level spells around while adding 9d6 damage to all allies' attacks, all out of a solid skillmonkey frame.

This pretty much sums up my sentiment. They are a solid class, & are fun to play, but are commonly considered silly & superfluous. So, like the cleric, the designers keep giving them nice things until they can curb-stomp most encountered with a little planning & very little real effort. This is what probably led to CoDzilla & Diplomancy, IMO.

But they're not OP. Wizards, Clerics, & Druids are OP. Bards are just Good.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-17, 06:31 AM
Outside of Diplomancy, is that still true?

Zincorium
2009-12-17, 07:32 AM
Bards are generalists who have to specialize somewhat to be good. A caster bard isn't going to be any better in melee than a poorly built rogue and still doesn't cast as well as a wizard, a melee bard can cut folks up almost as well as a swordsage, but spellcasting goes into the dumps. Gish get a halfway-decent amount of both, but it's tricky to get the balance right.

Skillmonkeying isn't really a specialization for bards- they're pretty good at it with nothing but the skill points they were rolled with, and if you throw a feat or something into it every once in a while diplomancer is almost trivial when things get going. So you might as well.

What they most definitely do not do is everything well all the time. That's the factotum's schtick.

Telonius
2009-12-17, 10:36 AM
Bards are force-multipliers. Where they really shine is in situations where they can improve the attacks and damages of any ally who can hear them. A level-20 bard with Leadership could lead a division of 163 archer followers and a cohort, granting them each +4 to attack and damage so long as they can hear his music. (Not even counting any other allies that are in the army, and not his followers, that can hear the music). That's an extra 656 points of damage per round - assuming they all hit whatever they're shooting at, which is a big assumption. Potentially +656 damage per round, Core only, no extra cheese.

Leaving aside contrived situations like that, they're still pretty good, but not because they're a generalist.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 10:47 AM
Bard warblade or crusader can be broken, if done correctly. A Bard10/Warblade10 with Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Song of the White Raven, combined with a Glass Whip and Preformance(Whipdancing) is nearly unstoppable. By using Snowflake Wardance and Preformance (Whipdancing) on a Glass Whip (MotW), a slashing weapon that deals decent damage with a high crit, you can "Reach out and touch somebody" with a bladed whip.

ex cathedra
2009-12-17, 10:52 AM
Bard warblade or crusader can be broken, if done correctly. A Bard10/Warblade10 with Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Song of the White Raven, combined with a Glass Whip and Preformance(Whipdancing) is nearly unstoppable. By using Snowflake Wardance and Preformance (Whipdancing) on a Glass Whip (MotW), a slashing weapon that deals decent damage with a high crit, you can "Reach out and touch somebody" with a bladed whip.

... no, not really. Bard 10/Warblade 10? Bard 4/Warblade 16 is a much better way to handle that. The Perform (Whipdance) thing sounds very Rule 0-esque, and a whip is by no means the best way to handle this.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 10:57 AM
I see the point of the Bard 4/Warblade 16.

However, its an actual Preformance from some goofy book. Or forgo the whip and go Great Scimmy and go with sworddancing, which is from a similar book.

Aldizog
2009-12-17, 11:04 AM
Inspire Courage is really, really, good.

In Core, even a +2 to hit and damage is nothing to sneeze at. That's giving everyone in the party a benefit equal to continual Aid Another and Favored Enemy (Bad Guys). Or Rage. Or WF/WS/GWF. It's often as good as the bonus from GMW. The benefit does the most mathematically when you need it most -- against high-AC opponents. Particularly in a party with druids, archers, TWF rogues, or cohorts, the bard as a 5th PC can sometimes pull his weight in damage output with a single standard action followed by twiddling his thumbs. When you actually run the numbers, Inspire Courage adds a LOT of damage, largely from the bonus on attack rolls.

Out of core, Inspire Courage can get really high.

Then there's the other songs, the spells, decent combat ability, and the skills. I don't think being a capable jack-of-all-trades makes one overpowered in 3.5, but it certainly can make the class a great deal of fun to play.

BardicDuelist
2009-12-17, 11:07 AM
A fully optimized bard can be a bit overpowered, depending on the group. With Batman-Wizards and CoDzillas, they can keep from being entirely useless by being bufftastic, while still having a couple tricks to pull here and there (with the three, if you choose spell lists that don't have a lot of overlap, you have a really solid party).

The biggest thing the bard has going for him is that the designers thought he sucked, so if you know where to look, there are a ridiculous number of good feats and PrCs that can turn your bard into a buff/debuff machine.

The bard's biggest strength is its perform skill. Even in core, there are some nasty tricks that can be pulled with suggestion. Diplomacy and bluff can also negate a fair number of combats. They're not broken, but they can be damn good if played right.

However, for a jack-of-all-trades character can really step on toes at practically any level, the factotum takes the cake.

EDIT: Oh, and using the Leadership feat (core) as written is pretty freaking insane with a bard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-17, 11:23 AM
A Bards can be a Sorcerer+ through Sublime Chord+Virtuoso, or be a melee monster through Warblade, Paladin, Barbarian, or Crusader levels, but in either case, it's weaker than someone specialized in that thing from level 1, and even in the Sorcerer case, it's Tier 3 until late game, when it hits Tier 2. If you want to specialize in being a Bard, rather than pretending to be a caster or a fighter, I recommend IC optimization. Which can add +20/+20 to attacks, or 20d6 force damage, but in neither case breaks the game, because the party gets it rather than just you. Boosting everyone else is never broken.

ex cathedra
2009-12-17, 12:50 PM
Which can add +20/+20 to attacks, or 20d6 force sonic damage...

Fixed. If you don't do Fire/Cold/Electricity/Acid/Sonic, it defaults to Fire. So, yeah. Proceed.

Ormagoden
2009-12-17, 01:32 PM
WARNING! YOUR EYES MIGHT NOT LIKE THIS!
I don't like bards.
Also, bard is the gnome's favored class. I dislike gnomes.


WARNING! YOUR EYES MIGHT NOT LIKE THIS!
/agree

Bagelz
2009-12-17, 01:43 PM
con - being a generalist or jack of all trades but a master of none is not good in dnd. past about lvl 13 you want to maximize on your strengths, this is why it is called min/max ing. you minimize costs of everything you don't maximize.

example what is better a fighter with all 14's who has mediocre will save and actually has skill points, or a fighter with 20 str and a little dex and 8 in everything else?

pro - the bard is not bad at anything. Also they are a charisma based class. If you have DM that will let you get away with it. By about lvl 10 with the leadership feat you can run your own town. You can use bardic knowledge on ANYTHING, you can diplomicize/bluff/cast your way into or out of all mundane situations, you have arcane spells, and healing spells.

so what is better, 1 lvl 10 min/maxed fighter, or 100 lvl 1-7 town militia buffed by inspire courage?

actuality - now any dm worth their weight in feces will not let lvl 10 bard take over the world, so no unless your dm is crap, or your party is lacking multiple roles, a bard is not a top notch class.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 01:50 PM
Bard Gets a bad rap.

Bard is a "Gish-in-a-Box" with decent casting, spell list, and a lot of truly fun fluff.

I liked that I once, in a gestalt campaign, ran a Divine Bard//Cleric/Sublime Chord/RSoP that outcast the Wizard//Duskblade and could outfight him too!

However, certain bards are annoying to say the least. If done right, bard and other "gish-in-a-box" type classes are lots of fun.

Note: I ADORE the chaos gnome. I also suggest to my fellow Bard-Fans to focus on the oddity combo of a TN Bard/Cleric/Marshall. Mr. Bufftastic

Gametime
2009-12-17, 01:55 PM
A Bards can be a Sorcerer+ through Sublime Chord+Virtuoso, or be a melee monster through Warblade, Paladin, Barbarian, or Crusader levels, but in either case, it's weaker than someone specialized in that thing from level 1, and even in the Sorcerer case, it's Tier 3 until late game, when it hits Tier 2. If you want to specialize in being a Bard, rather than pretending to be a caster or a fighter, I recommend IC optimization. Which can add +20/+20 to attacks, or 20d6 force damage, but in neither case breaks the game, because the party gets it rather than just you. Boosting everyone else is never broken.

The game can be broken just as easily by trivializing challenges as it can by outshining the rest of the party. Well, maybe not JUST as easily, since DMs are allowed to throw any sort of monster they want at you if it seems like you've got a good shot at taking it down, but you know what I mean.

Bards aren't capable of the universe-ruining shenanigans that, say, a wizard can prepare before breakfast, but if your DM isn't experienced with monsters and challenges, Inspire Courage optimization can break your campaign in half. Just a word of caution.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 01:58 PM
The game can be broken just as easily by trivializing challenges as it can by outshining the rest of the party. Well, maybe not JUST as easily, since DMs are allowed to throw any sort of monster they want at you if it seems like you've got a good shot at taking it down, but you know what I mean.

Bards aren't capable of the universe-ruining shenanigans that, say, a wizard can prepare before breakfast, but if your DM isn't experienced with monsters and challenges, Inspire Courage optimization can break your campaign in half. Just a word of caution.

Indeed. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

We had a Bard who focused on Inspire Courage, Diplomacy, and other "Kiss-***ery" and killed the biggest baddest Lv60 White Dragon.

Bard, "Brr! Its cold. How about you go jump into that Lava Pit?"

White Dragon, "Okay! Sounds Good!"

-White dragon leaps into the lava. Dies instantly-

tyckspoon
2009-12-17, 02:14 PM
Managing Inspire Courage optimization requires only the basic realization that you can modify the printed monsters. It's a known-quantity buff that scales the entire party equally, so you don't have to deal with the Wizardly conundrum of not knowing what he's going to do (Will he Enervate this one into the ground? Or just Dominate it and have it kill the next encounter for him?) or the issue of trying to provide a fair challenge for both the Monk and the Swordsage in the same fight. If the Bard is doubling the party's hit rate and damage output, you increase the monster's AC and HP by half (because it's bad form to completely null the resources the character put into his Inspire bonus) and move on. Reasonably large bonuses are countered by other reasonable not-quite-so-large bonuses, the party still benefits for having an optimized Bard by getting a larger edge than they would with unmodified Inspire Courage, and the world moves on.

Snails
2009-12-17, 02:26 PM
I was hanging out in my local gaming store the other day, and heard two guys saying that bards are in some way overpowered. I didn't hear all of their conversation, but I got the drift that they think well-built bards are overpowered not in that they are amazing at one thing, but that they are good at everything (at least more than a generalist class should be).

It is very common for people to incorrectly gauge the potency of a class by simply adding up abilities, like you balancing a checkbook. I have been in serious discussions with people who thus surmised the 3.0 Monk (which is quite a bit weaker than the 3.5 Monk) was vastly overpowered. I am not kidding.

The basic issue is a large grab bag of good abilities can rarely compete with a few carefully chosen abilities that are stacked up to synergize. That is why, for all that they are allegedly getting the short end of the stick, there is no lack of players eager to try out another Fighterish idea at the gaming table.

While under optimal conditions these generalist classes can indeed be very powerful (e.g. the high level Druid who is in animal form all day wearing ironwood full plate) (e.g. the superstacked Diplomancy Bard), most campaigns do not actually see any problems with generalists.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-17, 04:08 PM
The game can be broken just as easily by trivializing challenges as it can by outshining the rest of the party. Well, maybe not JUST as easily, since DMs are allowed to throw any sort of monster they want at you if it seems like you've got a good shot at taking it down, but you know what I mean.

Bards aren't capable of the universe-ruining shenanigans that, say, a wizard can prepare before breakfast, but if your DM isn't experienced with monsters and challenges, Inspire Courage optimization can break your campaign in half. Just a word of caution.But the Bard is predictable. He's going to be adding X to-hit and damage. The DM can compensate, and now the party is taking down Ogres instead of Orcs(with the melee getting more of a boost than the casters), making them more awesome but leaving the game balanced.

NeoVid
2009-12-17, 04:40 PM
Bards are possibly the most balanced class in core, being the only tier 3 class in the PHB.

Being a core class also means they got huge amounts of additional material later, like all core spellcasters. The one thing that can really make Bards too powerful is the PrC that gives them 9th level spells, but then you're practically playing a different class.