Soulknives- Remind me what's wrong with them.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Stranded without my beautiful rulebooks after a recent move, I am unable to remember the arguments against the Soulknife.

Before I decide whether to okay the class for anyone, I'd really like to know exactly what's wrong with it. The more specific the better.

Many thanks in advance.

[Glyde]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm

It's a fighting class, no-doubt. It does not have the BAB of a fighter. The monk suffers from a similar problem.

The soulknife is restricted in his weapons. Sure, having one at hand at all times is cool, but it requires a good chunk of houseruling to get some decent enchantments in the mix.

It needs a PRC from another source (Luckily it's free, now: Soulbow) to be considered 'viable' by the general population. A good combination is Soulbow on a thri'kreen, because quad lasers are fun.

[ex cathedra]

It's a psionic class without psionics, whose main class feature is completely obviated by a Psychic Warrior ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a), with a cost of one feat.

[AirGuitarGod32]

They are more fluff than crunch. The soulknife, while one fave class of mine, is not an "A #1" Hit on the base class list. True, PsiWarrior trumps it with a feat, and then some, but the Thri-Kreen Soulbow is cool.

I also developed feats and a PrC that combines Soulknife with Warlock. I called it Witchblade. It allowed levels to stack and developed feats to improve both, including one called "Of Mind and Soul", which worked like the Astetic or Devoted sets.

I also once ran a Soulknife 10/Warblade 10. Lots of fun btw.

[Optimystik]

It's a psionic class without psionics, whose main class feature is completely obviated by a Psychic Warrior ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a), with a cost of one feat.

And Psywar even has feats to spare for this.

Also, it's a frontline melee class with poor fort save, no evasion, and only light armor proficiency.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Yeah, so it's pretty much exactly what I thought.

Thanks for the input. Without you confirmation would have taken weeks.
<3

[Glyde]

There are a few a fixes/homebrew versions of the class out there, if you still liked the flavor enough. Still, the psywar ACF is pretty solid - except for one main problem that's still there. It's my personal opinion, but having your weapon +5 at level 20 seems... Off, to me. By the time the mind blade is at +2, my parties would usually have at least a few +3 weapons floating around. Then again, we typically play higher wealth games than RAW.

[tyckspoon]

There are a few a fixes/homebrew versions of the class out there, if you still liked the flavor enough. Still, the psywar ACF is pretty solid - except for one main problem that's still there. It's my personal opinion, but having your weapon +5 at level 20 seems... Off, to me. By the time the mind blade is at +2, my parties would usually have at least a few +3 weapons floating around. Then again, we typically play higher wealth games than RAW.

I usually figure you're more or less on track if your weapon bonus is as good as what you could get by having Greater Magic Weapon cast, which is +5 at CL 20. So that's on track. That's just the base level, mind, the enhancement value you should expect to get if you just update your weapon when it's relatively cheap compared to your current wealth. You will easily have one or two pluses higher if you're willing to make your weapon a significant portion of your wealth.

[Pluto]

Before I decide whether to okay the class for anyone, I'd really like to know exactly what's wrong with it.

Basically, it suffers from heavy Samurai syndrome: its class features are preselected feats that are very poorly selected. And "having a weapon," which probably should just be fluff (or at most, cost one feat).

Let's look at its class abilities:

As a combat class, it has 3/4 BA, simple weapons and light armor. 4+Int skills doesn't hurt, but it's not exactly a point in the SK's favor. Compare this to the Ranger (not exactly a powerful class by any standard).

The main class ability is the Mind Blade. That's fine from a fluff perspective, I guess. But mechanically? It basically just means you're armed. That's not exactly a selling point: even an Expert with 0 gp to spare can arm himself with a club. And that club can be 2-handed and thrown from level 1.

Weapon Focus makes up for crummy base attack until level 5. That's not a benefit, it's the delay of many punishments for entering the class.

Throw Mind Blade lets you throw your Mind Blade. There might be some reason to do that instead of just throwing a shortspear or javelin. That reason still hasn't occured to me.

Psychic Strike isn't bad at level 3. It's free damage, which is nice. But once the Soulknife gets multiple attacks per round (level 8 or whenever the Wizard starts throwing Hastes around), this ability is going to be ignored after the first strike in a combat.

Mind Blade enhancement bonuses scale at the same rate as Greater Magic Weapon. Slightly slower if your party casters are invest anything in boosting CL. So the defining class feature of the class saves your party a single 3rd level spell slot. Color me unimpressed.

At level 5, the Soulknife gets Quickdraw 1/round. Quickdraw's not exactly the greatest feat and 1/round defeats the point of throwing the blade in the first place. (Throwers typically work by making lots of attacks with decent bonus damage. The Soulknife can only ever get up to 4 attacks without bonus damage... see where I'm going here?)

Shape Mind Blade means you get to replace your Mind Blade with other subpar weapon options. That's great, but it was a class feature for real fighting classes at level 1.

Mind Blade Enhancement: This is okay, I guess, but the list is pretty weak (this ability would actually be useful if you could pick things like Bane). Remember that every fighter probably has an enchanted weapon by around this point.

Speed of Thought is a decent feat. I can't argue with that. (Except that the Psychic Warrior has gotten 3 such feats by now. And Manifesting. And Weapon/Armor proficiencies.)

Bladewind is useless because of the way damage works in D&D (3.5, at least): Until an enemy is reduced to 0 HP, that enemy is still up at full strength. Until you can drop the baddies, they're going to be up and eating your face. This means the clever player concentrates fire on one enemy until that enemy drops (this means there are less enemies hurting you and your party). Using Bladewind means you aren't using a full attack and thus not concentrating fire. This is another class ability you'll never use.

Knife to Soul is the only decent ability a Soulknife will ever get, but it's too little too late. A Soulknife might be able to use this to drop an enemy in 3 rounds, but that's at the exclusion of at least 2 full attacks (which would probably have similar effect).

Multiple Throw lets you throw your Mind blade as well as you would if you weren't using a Mind Blade in the first place. Yay?

...

So basically, the Soulknife takes a penalty by using its Mind Blade in place of a real weapon and by taking levels in the Mind Blade class instead of using a real melee class. Then it gets class features that partially make up for the self-nerf.

You'd be better off refluffing an Expert 1/Warrior 1/Expert than using a Soulknife: You'd be able to use better weapons (flavored to be mind blades), you'd have better armor and much better skills.

...

And a Psychic Warrior with the Call Weaponry Power is already better in every way than the Soulknife: same fluff (but actually psionic!), same BA, similar HP, but with class features to support its role.

That's before using the Soulbound Weapon ACF (which gives Called weapons free +X bonuses and any weapon enhancements you want).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you plan to houserule it, remember that a normal meleers weapon will be +1/+9 at level 20, using GMW to make it +5/+9. The Souknife's weapon needs to be better than +14 to keep up.

[Blackfang108]

And Psywar even has feats to spare for this.

Also, it's a frontline melee class with poor fort save, no evasion, and only light armor proficiency.

I've never understood the Poor Fort save arguement.

It might be because every Fort Save I've ever made was from a ranged spell, but this doesn't seem like it should be a notewothy matter for a front line warrior.

(the BAB, on the other hand... Why did they do that?)

[Pluto]

I've never understood the Poor Fort save arguement.
Lots of scary monsters have poison.

Various forms of poison gas are often used in low-level battlefield control (Wall of Smoke, Stinking Cloud, etc.)

But I agree: for a high STR/CON character, high fort saves aren't that important. Just by merit of being a tough-looking character on the front line, you're probably the least likely to be targeted with a Fort-dependant spell.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Lots of scary monsters have poison.

Various forms of poison gas are often used in low-level battlefield control (Wall of Smoke, Stinking Cloud, etc.)

But I agree: for a high STR/CON character, high fort saves aren't that important. Just by merit of being a tough-looking character on the front line, you're probably the least likely to be targeted with a Fort-dependant spell.Actually, SKs probably look like Rogues or Gishes due to the Light armor and lightsabre. Either way, having a poor fort save is never a good idea.

[Faleldir]

The entire class is a lie. The only reason anyone ever wants to play a Soulknife is to wield a "lightsaber", but a Mind Blade functions like a normal sword. At the very least, I'd expect it to make touch attacks at will.

[Optimystik]

I've never understood the Poor Fort save arguement.

It might be because every Fort Save I've ever made was from a ranged spell, but this doesn't seem like it should be a notewothy matter for a front line warrior.

Poison, Disease, Massive Damage, Petrification, Instant Death - a lot of the reasons close range fighting is scary, the front line fighters were meant to handle more easily. Soulknife doesn't.

[Zeta Kai]

(the BAB, on the other hand... Why did they do that?)

I have never understood the design & playtesting process at WotC, because it seems to fly in the face of any reasonable quality control system that I've ever seen. It's almost as if they want to make wildly unbalanced gameplay options...


The entire class is a lie. The only reason anyone ever wants to play a Soulknife is to wield a "lightsaber", but a Mind Blade functions like a normal sword. At the very least, I'd expect it to make touch attacks at will.

Conceptually, I think the class is more like Psylocke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke) from the X-Men. But the class doesn't do a good job of emulating that either. She was a competent combatant. A soulknife? Not so much.

[Optimystik]

Conceptually, I think the class is more like Psylocke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke) from the X-Men. But the class doesn't do a good job of emulating that either. She was a competent combatant. A soulknife? Not so much.

Ironically, they didn't do their homework - she has psychic powers too, not just the bloody knife.

[Asbestos]

The only problem I've ever heard of someone having with the class is the free Wounding weapons thing... But that's more of a problem with that specific weapon enchantment.

The various variant soulknife feats from CP (axe, polearm, whatever) should probably be just incorporated into the class for free.

Isn't there a variant somewhere that gets some access to psionic abilities?

[ex cathedra]

Isn't there a variant somewhere that gets some access to psionic abilities?

Hidden Power Talent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a); they get 2pp and 1 first level power of their choice.

[RebelRogue]

I've been wondering if the following quick fix wouldn't make them at least playable:

Full BAB (possibly removing the Weapon Focus bonus feats)
Proficiency with medium armor
Shape Mind Blade: In effect from level 1 and allows daggers and greatswords as well.
Throw Mind Blade: Allow multiple throw from level 2.
Psychic Strike: swift action instead of move action
Free Draw: No restriction of once/round.
Mind Blade Enhancement: allow all enhancements, not just the ones on the table.

Haven't tried it, but that seems like obvious changes.

[Optimystik]

Isn't there a variant somewhere that gets some access to psionic abilities?

You get one 1st-level power, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) and 2pp to manifest it with. You can blow your feats on this multiple times, getting 2pp and another 1st level power each time.

EK won't work either; the highest level power you can ever manifest is 1, so you're unable to learn any powers with it.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Optimystik]

I've been wondering if the following quick fix wouldn't make them at least playable:

Why would you want to? Just get the Psywar variant, this doesn't need to be a class by itself. Give the Psywar Throw Mind Blade so he can go into Soulbow and call it a day.

It's not even like the Truenamer, where it's weak but flavorfully unique. It's just a poor attempt at letting people be Psylocke.

[Draz74]

I've been wondering if the following quick fix wouldn't make them at least playable:

Full BAB (possibly removing the Weapon Focus bonus feats)
Proficiency with medium armor
Shape Mind Blade: In effect from level 1 and allows daggers and greatswords as well.
Throw Mind Blade: Allow multiple throw from level 2.
Psychic Strike: swift action instead of move action
Free Draw: No restriction of once/round.
Mind Blade Enhancement: allow all enhancements, not just the ones on the table.

Haven't tried it, but that seems like obvious changes.

Um, yes, I think this would make the Soulknife quite Duskblade-like. I.e., still not good at anything except dealing damage, but boy can they deal a crapload of damage! And therefore outshine all the Tier 4 melee classes (Fighter, Barbarian, Knight ...)

[RebelRogue]

Why would you want to? Just get the Psywar variant, this doesn't need to be a class by itself. Give the Psywar Throw Mind Blade so he can go into Soulbow and call it a day.
Not really disagreeing, just thought it would be pretty easy to do in case someone liked the original class.

[FMArthur]

Give them full BAB, all good saves, d12 hit dice and 8 skill points per level. That might make up for not having any notable class features besides "has a weapon". Look at it this way: it's not a real class. There isn't enough there to "fix", because it's mostly just an empty shell of a melee warrior. There isn't even much fluff to it. So the class is lacking class abilities and fluff. A "fix" means just making a whole new class, which is kind of hard to justify when you look at the Soulbound Weapon Psychic Warrior.

[nekomata2]

Conceptually, I think the class is more like Psylocke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke) from the X-Men. But the class doesn't do a good job of emulating that either. She was a competent combatant. A soulknife? Not so much.

I agree, they do an awful job at it too, which is disappointing, since I like Psylocke, which is why I like the 3.0 PrC version of it. 3.0 psionics seems weird to me, but it has the same progression as the 3.0 Slayer, so I guess it might translate to 9/10ths progression, and in 10 levels gets the mind blade and up to +5 enhancement bonus, 5d6 sneak attack, and a channeling power ability (perfect for Psylocke).

[Pluto]

Judging by the Psionics Handbook, the Soulknife is supposed to be the rogue of psionics.

So I'm going to say the solution is to gestalt the Soulknife with the Lurk.

...And then toss in Trapfinding and the ability to change the Mindblade into any weapon, because the class could probably still use a boost.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Judging by the Psionics Handbook, the Soulknife is supposed to be the rogue of psionics.

So I'm going to say the solution is to gestalt the Soulknife with the Lurk.

...And then toss in Trapfinding and the ability to change the Mindblade into any weapon, because the class could probably still use a boost.

I second. I like this Idea because its more in leau with the "spirit" of the class. Its not a fighter, its a sneaky basterd with a real "trick up his sleeve" to say the least. Id also say we make a Psichic Assassin prc, unless a version exists that mimics the Assassin/Slayer in "non-psi" d&d

[Amphetryon]

(the BAB, on the other hand... Why did they do that?)That's just where the dart landed after the monkey threw it.

[Thalnawr]

I second. I like this Idea because its more in leau with the "spirit" of the class. Its not a fighter, its a sneaky basterd with a real "trick up his sleeve" to say the least. Id also say we make a Psichic Assassin prc, unless a version exists that mimics the Assassin/Slayer in "non-psi" d&d
Mind's Eye did this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) already.

[tyckspoon]

I agree, they do an awful job at it too, which is disappointing, since I like Psylocke, which is why I like the 3.0 PrC version of it. 3.0 psionics seems weird to me, but it has the same progression as the 3.0 Slayer, so I guess it might translate to 9/10ths progression, and in 10 levels gets the mind blade and up to +5 enhancement bonus, 5d6 sneak attack, and a channeling power ability (perfect for Psylocke).

Wouldn't be too hard to throw together a new prestige Soulknife, either. Basic entry requirement would be..oh.. "able to manifest Call Weaponry augmented to at least 5 PP", which would hit the normal level-6 entry but also allow for early entry by way of Overchanneling if desired. It would grant the Soulbound Weapon benefits to whatever you Call, and eventually convert Call Weaponry into a psi-like power for you (ie, free full augmentation, possibly as the last level benefit) You would also gain the ability to more easily and cheaply manifest the (X) Weapon and Weapon of (Y) powers on your Called Weapons; perhaps auto-quicken all of them + X points worth of free augmenting, or automatically apply Link Power to Call Weapon so that you can trigger Energy Weapon any time you use Call Weapon.

[The Glyphstone]

Wouldn't be too hard to throw together a new prestige Soulknife, either. Basic entry requirement would be..oh.. "able to manifest Call Weaponry augmented to at least 5 PP", which would hit the normal level-6 entry but also allow for early entry by way of Overchanneling if desired. It would grant the Soulbound Weapon benefits to whatever you Call, and eventually convert Call Weaponry into a psi-like power for you (ie, free full augmentation, possibly as the last level benefit) You would also gain the ability to more easily and cheaply manifest the (X) Weapon and Weapon of (Y) powers on your Called Weapons; perhaps auto-quicken all of them + X points worth of free augmenting, or automatically apply Link Power to Call Weapon so that you can trigger Energy Weapon any time you use Call Weapon.


+1. Someone get, say, Vorpal Tribble on this right away (first prolific GITP homebrewer I thought of who's also a huge psionics fan).

[SaintRidley]

The class really screams "I should have been a class feature of the Psychic Warrior." I see no reason for it to exist on its own.

[Snails]

I look at the Soulknife as psionic-style reinvention of the Monk.

As a melee competent skill class it is actually okay at low levels. I played in a party with a PC that dipped one level into Rogue for a really terrifying alpha strike.

But you could blend Scout and Psi-Warrior to fulfill the same role, and have a lot more flexibility in the long haul.

[Tetsubo 57]

The Soulknife is such a great *idea* though. I can remember the first time I read it, the class just *clicked* in my head. It was just such a cool concept. But when I read the Psychic Warrior I thought, "Meh". It just seemed very bland to me. I never really 'grokked' it if you will. The Soulknife just seemed like something really fun to play. having said that... the class does have some gaping issues. It really does need a full BAB. I don't mind the armour restriction, medium just seems pointless and heavy is silly for such a class. I see the armour mostly as a platform for enhancements. Let the class switch weapon types as a free action. Let them throw a mind blade as their number of attacks increase. Maybe a second speed increase. But I do love this class. :)

[taltamir]

WOTC guy 1: I know, lets make this cool sounding class with cool abilities
WOTC guy 2: Ok, so lets start with the most uber class we have, fighter, and now give it a ton of nerfs, then refluff it!
WOTC manager: Sounds awesome!

Soulknives are not even valid as an NPC class.
As said before, their only feature is "has weapon" and "mitigates some of the nerfs it naturally has"...

I say, redesign it from the grounds up.
Start with a fighter (so that means, full bab and armor and shield proficiency).
Take away the bonus feats and replace them with:
1. Can form any weapon they are proficient with out of psi energy.
2. weapon can carry enchantments of your choice with a value of 1/3 your class level, rounded down.
3. Allow them to change the weapon type and its bonus at will, say... as a move action. Or reforge it if it is sundered.
4. At some level, the weapon becomes brilliant (ignores armor)...

[Pluto]

Soulknives are not even valid as an NPC class.
Now, now...

Soulknife might not match the Aristocrat in terms of armor class, damage, skill options or starting wealth, but its base Reflex save is certainly 6 points higher by level 20.

...And it gets Speed of Thought for free!

[nekomata2]

Wouldn't be too hard to throw together a new prestige Soulknife, either. Basic entry requirement would be..oh.. "able to manifest Call Weaponry augmented to at least 5 PP", which would hit the normal level-6 entry but also allow for early entry by way of Overchanneling if desired. It would grant the Soulbound Weapon benefits to whatever you Call, and eventually convert Call Weaponry into a psi-like power for you (ie, free full augmentation, possibly as the last level benefit) You would also gain the ability to more easily and cheaply manifest the (X) Weapon and Weapon of (Y) powers on your Called Weapons; perhaps auto-quicken all of them + X points worth of free augmenting, or automatically apply Link Power to Call Weapon so that you can trigger Energy Weapon any time you use Call Weapon.

Its requirements as is are +3 BAB, 3 MS ranks, 9+ bonus points (not including bonus), and 3 ranks in knowledge (psionics). And when I was looking at making a 3.5 version of it, I had the same idea, to make it a Soulbound Weapon type thing, but I never considered the eventual progression to a psi-like ability, though it should obviously eventually get quicken. Smart person, you are...

[Snails]

WOTC guy 1: I know, lets make this cool sounding class with cool abilities
WOTC guy 2: Ok, so lets start with the most uber class we have, fighter, and now give it a ton of nerfs, then refluff it!

There are issues with the Soulknife, but comparing it directly with a Fighter would be an error on your part. The correct comparison points would be Rogue, Ranger, Monk, and Scout.




Soulknives are not even valid as an NPC class.


Quite the opposite.

The mindblade enhancement is a beautiful schtick for DMs to apply sundry annoying and unusual weapon properties against the PCs without leaving mountains of wealth lying around.

For a PC with PC-level wealth, the mindblade is a minor advantage. For an NPC with NPC-level wealth, the mindblade is a big benefit.

How many 10th level NPCs carry +4 equivalent weapons with them?

[Zeta Kai]

There are issues with the Soulknife, but comparing it directly with a Fighter would be an error on your part. The correct comparison points would be Rogue, Ranger, Monk, and Scout.

Okay, how this then?

WotC Guy #1: Hey, we should do some sneaky psychic guy. What do you think?
WotC Guy #2: Cool! We can base it on the the Rogue, but we'll take out all the class features & repl-
WotC Guy #1: Hold on, I gotta take this call.
WotC Guy #2: So, did you hear me, I said-
WotC Guy #1: Yeah, I heard you, I'm on it.
WotC Guy #2: Well, what I think we should do is add-
WotC Guy #1: Yeah, I've got it. Take a Rogue, & cut out the class features. It'll be great. Look, I gotta run. We'll do lunch. KTHXBAI.

[sentaku]

Okay, how this then?

WotC Guy #1: Hey, we should do some sneaky psychic guy. What do you think?
WotC Guy #2: Cool! We can base it on the the Rogue, but we'll take out all the class features & repl-
WotC Guy #1: Hold on, I gotta take this call.
WotC Guy #2: So, did you hear me, I said-
WotC Guy #1: Yeah, I heard you, I'm on it.
WotC Guy #2: Well, what I think we should do is add-
WotC Guy #1: Yeah, I've got it. Take a Rogue, & cut out the class features. It'll be great. Look, I gotta run. We'll do lunch. KTHXBAI.


I believe it went something like this:

WotC Guy #1: Lets make psionic a melee character that never has to worry about loosing their weapon
WotC Guy #2: Like the monk, who is the best class ever.
WotC Guy #1: Right you are WotC Guy #2, monks are made of win.
WotC Guy #2: Ok then lets get started.

[Snails]

"monks are made of win" :) Good one.

So, would you rather play a Monk or a Soulknife?

[Scarlet Tropix]

Honestly? I'd take the Monk. At least you can get some use out of them through multiclassing, but Soulknife as written can only go to Soulbow, and archery isn't that great anyway.

[Lycanthromancer]

"monks are made of win" :) Good one.

So, would you rather play a Monk or a Soulknife?That's a trick question.

How could anyone ever choose between swordsage or psychic warrior?

[Draxar]

I'm currently playing a Soulknife and enjoying it. But I'm the habitual optimiser of a non-optimising group, so I'm able to craft what I'm doing without massively overpowering the other characters.

And the class has been improved. Firstly, it gets full BAB. Secondly, it gets anything the DM considers reasonable as enhancement equivalent powers – Bane is fine, Metalline isn't, for instance. Thirdly, just recently the DM has allowed me to reassign what the enhancement equivalent is in five minutes, but I can only do it once per 8 hour rest.

Currently I've mixed some weebo fighting magic into it, and as a result, my DM has come up with a custom PrC I'll shortly be retraining to take, called the Beshadowed Blade, essentially functioning as a combination between Soulknife and Shadow Hand abilities.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"monks are made of win" :) Good one.

So, would you rather play a Monk or a Soulknife?

Kalashtar Monk 2/Soulknife 18 with the tashalatora feat :smallsmile:

[EagleWiz]

Whats wrong with them? Monks kill them.
That is all.

[Zeta Kai]

How could anyone ever choose between swordsage or psychic warrior?

I see what you did there. And I like it. :smallwink:

[Surgo]

Amazingly, I don't think anyone yet has touched on what's actually wrong with the Soulknife. And that's simple: your level 1 class feature is to have a 5 gp weapon. And that's just insulting.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Look at it this way: it's not a real class.

Nobody touched on that, eh?

[SurlySeraph]

"monks are made of win" :) Good one.

So, would you rather play a Monk or a Soulknife?

A Monk. They're more entertaining to play, there's a lot more support for them, and with proper multiclassing they can actually add a lot to a build. With the exception of Soulbow builds, I have yet to see a build that was improved by the addition of Soulknife.

[NEO|Phyte]

Amazingly, I don't think anyone yet has touched on what's actually wrong with the Soulknife. And that's simple: your level 1 class feature is to have a 5 gp weapon. And that's just insulting.

Yeah, at least Samurai gets you 645gp worth of weapon!

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, at least Samurai gets you 645gp worth of weapon!
Plus, the Samurai is full-BAB! The advantages keep piling up!

[Asbestos]

I wonder what tier a soulknife|ninja would be compared to the non-gestalt non-full casters. Still pretty low probably. I see nothing wrong with combining the two classes, replace every instance of 'ki' with 'psi'.

[Krazddndfreek]

I have yet to see a build that was improved by the addition of Soulknife.

Throwing unnarmed strikes. :smallbiggrin:

[SurlySeraph]

Kensai, the Blood Wind spell, and a Necklace of Natural Attacks with the Throwing and Returning enhancements, all can do it better.

[taltamir]

I'm currently playing a Soulknife and enjoying it. But I'm the habitual optimiser of a non-optimising group, so I'm able to craft what I'm doing without massively overpowering the other characters.

And the class has been improved. Firstly, it gets full BAB. Secondly, it gets anything the DM considers reasonable as enhancement equivalent powers – Bane is fine, Metalline isn't, for instance. Thirdly, just recently the DM has allowed me to reassign what the enhancement equivalent is in five minutes, but I can only do it once per 8 hour rest.

so you are not playing a soulknife, you are playing one of our "fixes" which still carries the name soulknife despite being a completely different class.


I wonder what tier a soulknife|ninja would be compared to the non-gestalt non-full casters. Still pretty low probably. I see nothing wrong with combining the two classes, replace every instance of 'ki' with 'psi'.

a soulknife is between a commoner and a warrior. The warrior is better.

[ex cathedra]

so you are not playing a soulknife, you are playing one of our "fixes" which still carries the name soulknife despite being a completely different class.

Don't be so aggressive. He didn't say that Soulknife was balanced because of his experience. He simply professed that he enjoyed the class after it was slightly buffed; also, it's the same class with slightly improved and expanded features. How is it 'completely different?' I strongly doubt that he's playing a fix that should be attributed to you in any way; it's much more likely that his DM arbitrated the class fixes, so I don't quite see how you deserve credit for that.



a soulknife is between a commoner and a warrior. The warrior is better.

Mmm... no. Soulknife is better than Warrior, and Soulknife is better than commoner in all but one or two niche cases, in which Commoner is better than most T3 and under classes.

[Draxar]

Don't be so aggressive. He didn't say that Soulknife was balanced because of his experience. He simply professed that he enjoyed the class after it was slightly buffed; also, it's the same class with slightly improved and expanded features. How is it 'completely different?' I strongly doubt that he's playing a fix that should be attributed to you in any way; it's much more likely that his DM arbitrated the class fixes, so I don't quite see how you deserve credit for that.

Quite. My DM said "It's a Psychic Ranger or a Psychic Rogue, you can have full BAB, or 8+Int skills. Expanding the enhancement equivalent list seemed obvious to both of us, and the final change came because of in play me pointing out I just don't change my enhancement equivalent nearly at all, because it takes too long.

I think also my point was that it depends what group you're in – it can be something an optimiser can somewhat go to town on, while the less optimised party is not totally outshone by it.

[Fishy]

Or you could go with Artificer, and use Personal Weapon Augmentation to turn any old stick into your personal lightsaber.

Whee, Bane weapons at level 1!

[Signmaker]

Counterproductive action economy coupled with not so good specs. Creating and expending your psionic focus is just a hassle.

[taltamir]

Mmm... no. Soulknife is better than Warrior, and Soulknife is better than commoner in all but one or two niche cases, in which Commoner is better than most T3 and under classes.

Warrior gets full BAB, soulknife gets a weapon crappier then he could otherwise afford, warrior kicks soulknife's ass. Warrior is proficient in all armor and shields, soulknife gets "light armor" only. Warrior is proficient in all martial weapons and simple weapons, soulknife in all simple.

@Lvl 13 a warrior has BAB: +13/+8/+3
Fort: +8
Ref/Will: +4
Wearing a magical fullplate (8AC) and maybe a tower shield, and using a weapon that beats the soulknife's hands down. And @110,000gp @ LVL13 WBL, he will be using a much better sword. Probably with better enchantments than a straight through +3

The soulknife has BAB: 9/4
Fort: +4
Ref/will/ +8
Wearing a chain shirt (4AC), no shield, using a bastard sword +3 (must use both hands without a feat). Unless he sunk a bunch of feats into proficiencies... He does get greater weapon focus, which gives him a +2 to attack with a mindblade. So his its like he has BAB 11/6, only he does NOT get an extra attack per round, because his actual BAB is lower.

[Surgo]

The Soulknife does get one good ability though: at level 13, he can arbitrarily OHKO half the monsters in the Monster Manual.

[Optimystik]

The Soulknife does get one good ability though: at level 13, he can arbitrarily OHKO half the monsters in the Monster Manual.

It becomes somewhat less impressive when you realize a Psion can do it too. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm)

[taltamir]

The Soulknife does get one good ability though: at level 13, he can arbitrarily OHKO half the monsters in the Monster Manual.

OHKO? what is OHKO?

[Optimystik]

OHKO? what is OHKO?

One Hit Knock Out (kill)

[taltamir]

Don't be so aggressive. He didn't say that Soulknife was balanced because of his experience. He simply professed that he enjoyed the class after it was slightly buffed; also, it's the same class with slightly improved and expanded features. How is it 'completely different?' I strongly doubt that he's playing a fix that should be attributed to you in any way; it's much more likely that his DM arbitrated the class fixes, so I don't quite see how you deserve credit for that.

I didn't mean the fix "belongs" to me... I meant his DM came up with a fix nearly identical to the one we came up with... UNfixed the class is lower than a warrior.

[taltamir]

One Hit Knock Out (kill)
EDITED to be more correct:

This is obviously meant to be used with psychic strike... you can replace extra damage dice with 1 point of ability score damage. Starting at level 13.
You use a move action to charge up your blade and make 1 single attack that round instead of a full attack. If it connects, you do 3 damage to int, wisdom, or charisma.

WOOHOO! You replicated a variety of level 2 spells / powers... at level 13.

And how many things can you knock out with 3 damage? 4 by level 15, 5 by level 19...

Oh, and it is limited to "next living, nonmindless target". It is, however, situationally useful, and is the only ability he has that isn't utter and pure suck...

[RagnaroksChosen]

don't forget guys soulknifes get whirlwind for free at 9th level.

[Draz74]

don't forget guys soulknifes get whirlwind for free at 9th level.

That might matter if their mind blade had a Reach of like 20 feet. :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

don't forget guys soulknifes get whirlwind for free at 9th level.

Whirlwind is awful for the same reason that Great Cleave is awful - if you're up against enemies weak enough to make it matter, then you don't need it, and if you're up against strong enemies, you're being ineffective by scratching all of them instead of killing one and removing it from the fight.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Whirlwind is awful for the same reason that Great Cleave is awful - if you're up against enemies weak enough to make it matter, then you don't need it, and if you're up against strong enemies, you're being ineffective by scratching all of them instead of killing one and removing it from the fight.

Ya i was being kinda sarcastic...

Though,
I wonder would his psi strike apply to all the creatures hit? as its technicaly you strike against them all? and its all the same weapon?

[Optimystik]

Ya i was being kinda sarcastic...

Ha, sorry, doesn't translate well on the web.


Though,
I wonder would his psi strike apply to all the creatures hit? as its technicaly you strike against them all? and its all the same weapon?

It's ambiguous. RAW it does not: "This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack..." - so it would only apply to one of them no matter what. RAMS could go either way - it's the same blade, so it should; but he could arguably be diffusing his blade's energy while fragmenting it, so it wouldn't.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Ha, sorry, doesn't translate well on the web.



It's ambiguous. RAW it does not: "This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack..." - so it would only apply to one of them no matter what. RAMS could go either way - it's the same blade, so it should; but he could arguably be diffusing his blade's energy while fragmenting it, so it wouldn't.

I think raw is ambiguous.. as it does say the first. but are you not hitting them all at the same time?

[Mongoose87]

If Psychic strike was changed to be applied as a swift action, and they could use it more times per day, would that put them on par with rogues/slightly behind?

[Prime32]

I decided to make a soulknife fix a while ago. And by "fix" I mean I made a slightly-buffed version of the warlock class (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3053.msg94899#msg94899) with a feat called "Eldritch Blade" and converted Bladewind to an invocation :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

I think raw is ambiguous.. as it does say the first. but are you not hitting them all at the same time?

The RAW says it affects one target per charge.

Some DMs (Myself, for instance) would rule that it would indeed discharge against every enemy in range. It's not as if the power boost would break the Soulknife.

Some however, would let you pick a foe (or even pick one for you), and have the strike apply only to that one.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The RAW says it affects one target per charge.

Some DMs (Myself, for instance) would rule that it would indeed discharge against every enemy in range. It's not as if the power boost would break the Soulknife.

Some however, would let you pick a foe (or even pick one for you), and have the strike apply only to that one.



Psychic Strike (Su)

As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. (Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)

A mind blade deals this extra damage only once when this ability is called upon, but a soulknife can imbue his mind blade with psychic energy again by taking another move action.

Once a soulknife has prepared his blade for a psychic strike, it holds the extra energy until it is used. Even if the soulknife drops the mind blade (or it otherwise dissipates, such as when it is thrown and misses), it is still imbued with psychic energy when the soulknife next materializes it.

At every four levels beyond 3rd (7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), the extra damage from a soulknife’s psychic strike increases as shown on the Table above.

It just says that the extra damage is delt to the next creature he hits... if with the whirlwind Esc ability he hits them all simultaneously then it would apply to them all no? Am i reading it wrong? or was there errata?

[Optimystik]

It just says that the extra damage is delt to the next creature he hits... if with the whirlwind Esc ability he hits them all simultaneously then it would apply to them all no? Am i reading it wrong? or was there errata?

Next living target. Singular.

Again, I agree it should be ruled the way you say, but that's not RAW.

[AirGuitarGod32]

I say abandon it as a base class and remodel it into a real prestige class. Drop it back to 10 lvs, using the best bonuses of Mindblade and other worthwhile abilities, give him some (very few) powers, give him a full BAB, Medium Armor Proficiency (So one can use say Mithril Fullplate) and voila. Soulknife as the Psyloke. Make it a psiwarrior prestige for ultimate fun and make him able to use the mindblade power stuff for armor and shield.