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KaeltheAwesome
2009-12-17, 10:38 AM
Heyo folks, I've got a question for you.
I've been playing DDO recently and really liking the monk. Its not quite as good as some of the other classes, but it doesn't feel as crappy as PNP monk can at times.

So I'm wondering what sort of things you could change with the monk class to make it better.

Ideas include getting rid of one class feature to gain full attack progression, adding in those stances from DDO and thus the elemental attacks, or maybe adding some more weapons to the monk weapon list.

Any thoughts?

Glyde
2009-12-17, 10:44 AM
Automatically proficient with all monk weapons from all sources, exotic or not - This opens some options for more unique weapons whether or not they're good.

Now that that is out of the way...

A few fixes I've come across that worked are either just give the monk a full BAB, or to change how flurry works. The intent is obvious - Use your crazy speed to charge stunning-fist someone, then flurry them the next turn. It... Rarely, if ever, works out that way. You either change flurry, or you change stunning blow. A feat, maybe, to flurry as part of a charge? (You can add in stunning fists into a flurry anyway.)

In a less-powered group, I played a monk/tattooed monk, and we just gave the prc a full BAB and flurry progression as well as the other monk progressions included. The DM was rather annoyed at how I used the monk for its intended purpose (Grab the single most powerful threat and throw them off a cliff.)

Also, get rid of the penalties for doing stuff unarmed: Monks are awesome at this thing, they don't need -4 to their disarm checks. That's pretty much insult to injury for choosing to be a monk that disarms people in the first place.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-17, 10:52 AM
Can we sticky this? :smallbiggrin:

Common suggestions include

play an Unarmed Swordsage
play a martially-inclined Psion
multiclass as soon as possible, e.g. monk 2 / druid X
give them 40+ point buy where the other classes get 25
give them a free gestalt in another low-tier class
various homebrew class replacements
full BAB, and flurry as a standard action
play in a game not focused on combat, so that its stats aren't as important

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 10:53 AM
DDO Monk is a lot stronger than PnP Monk, because of the way combat in that game is structured. DDO Monk gets elemental damage abilities, they can debuff enemies, give the entire party concealment, super jump and even get Irresistible Dance. - all in addition to their normal buffs like disease immunity, evasion, WIS to AC etc. PnP Monk had half this stuff it would be a lot better.

taltamir
2009-12-17, 11:00 AM
I think part of the intention of flurry was to emulate full BAB when using monk weapons.

Monks should be proficient in using unarmed strike (an oversight, which will not come into play except when rule lawyering, still)

Ki strike should give monk enchantment bonus, not just damage reduction bypassing, and should have a good progression. Ki strike should also be useable with all monk weapons; not just unarmed.

And you could probably replace the "increase damage die" (which is pathetic in its increase) with "does sneak attack equal to that of a rogue of a similar level" (he aims for the vitals).

PS. DDO bears superficial similarities to PNP DND

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-17, 11:03 AM
Can we sticky this? :smallbiggrin:

Common suggestions include

play an Unarmed Swordsage
play a martially-inclined Psion
multiclass as soon as possible, e.g. monk 2 / druid X
give them 40+ point buy where the other classes get 25
give them a free gestalt in another low-tier class
various homebrew class replacements
full BAB, and flurry as a standard action
play in a game not focused on combat, so that its stats aren't as important


The thread is closed for me :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2009-12-17, 11:04 AM
- allow them to enchant their fists/bodies as though they were magic arms/armor.

Ormagoden
2009-12-17, 11:06 AM
Can we sticky this? :smallbiggrin:

Common suggestions include

play an Unarmed Swordsage
play a martially-inclined Psion
multiclass as soon as possible, e.g. monk 2 / druid X
give them 40+ point buy where the other classes get 25
give them a free gestalt in another low-tier class
various homebrew class replacements
full BAB, and flurry as a standard action
play in a game not focused on combat, so that its stats aren't as important


I second the sticky! Someone sticky this wonderful human being's suggestion ASAP!

taltamir
2009-12-17, 11:09 AM
- allow them to enchant their fists/bodies as though they were magic arms/armor.

just give it to them free...
A monk has an effective enchantment bonus to their attack of monk level / 4 rounded down.
And an enchantment bonus to their nat armor of the same value.

tyckspoon
2009-12-17, 11:12 AM
just give it to them free...
A monk has an effective enchantment bonus to their attack of monk level / 4 rounded down.
And an enchantment bonus to their nat armor of the same value.

It's not the raw numbers that are the reasoning behind "let them enchant themselves", although fixing those helps. It's so Monks can make use of Lucky Shadowstriking fists and Soulfire skin without having to sacrifice other Monk-defining abilities.

taltamir
2009-12-17, 11:17 AM
It's not the raw numbers that are the reasoning behind "let them enchant themselves", although fixing those helps. It's so Monks can make use of Lucky Shadowstriking fists and Soulfire skin without having to sacrifice other Monk-defining abilities.

ah that... "all monk abilities work when using monk weapons of any sort; bonuses to unarmed strike apply to any monk weapon currently wielded".
Problem solved.

Draz74
2009-12-17, 12:56 PM
Any thoughts?

I'll once again post my "quick & easy homebrew Monk fix" list:


6+Int Skill Points per level
Use Flurry on any attack (not just full attacks)
Extra attacks due to Flurry must be Unarmed Strikes or Shuriken
Proficient with unarmed strikes (duh)
Can get Unarmed Strikes/body enchanted with weapon/armor enhancements
Deal full Unarmed Strike damage with any Monk weapon (in melee)
At higher levels, make Quivering Palm usable reasonably often, make Perfect Self give DR that's not worthless, etc.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-17, 12:57 PM
Giving monks UMD as a class skill might help.

taltamir
2009-12-17, 12:59 PM
Giving monks UMD as a class skill might help.

giving umd to any class helps, but only by making them a psudeo wizard/cleric.
When someone wants to be an effective monk, casting spells and using wands is probably not what they meant.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-17, 01:01 PM
When someone wants to be an effective monk, casting spells and using wands is probably not what they meant.

You and I clearly do not game with the same kind of people.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-17, 01:02 PM
giving umd to any class helps, but only by making them a psudeo wizard/cleric.
When someone wants to be an effective monk, casting spells and using wands is probably not what they meant.He was referring to the classic Giamonk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704).

Telonius
2009-12-17, 01:33 PM
ah that... "all monk abilities work when using monk weapons of any sort; bonuses to unarmed strike apply to any monk weapon currently wielded".
Problem solved.

The other reason for allowing them to do it themselves is that it will help control gp cost a bit (at the expense of a bit of XP). 50% discount on magic arms and armor is a significant thing.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 01:35 PM
He was referring to the classic Giamonk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704).

That thread still has me rolling. :smallbiggrin:

But it has me sad that so many smart posters got whammed over it.

Ormagoden
2009-12-17, 01:38 PM
Can't there just be a rule that pixies can't post new threads with the word Monk anywhere in it?

Mongoose87
2009-12-17, 01:42 PM
Can't there just be a rule that pixies can't post new threads with the word Monk anywhere in it?

We do not discriminate against Fey here.

Ormagoden
2009-12-17, 01:48 PM
Speak for yourself!

I'll just have to get a full copy paste-able response going I suppose.

Asbestos
2009-12-17, 01:49 PM
Can't there just be a rule that pixies can't post new threads with the word Monk anywhere in it?

We'd probably see at least a 75% decrease in Monk threads.


Edit: I'm very inclined to start a thread titled "Unarmed Swordsage; What can I do to make it weaker"

I would expect the first answer to be "Play a Monk".

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-17, 01:51 PM
So I'm wondering what sort of things you could change with the monk class to make it better.

Some ideas you could do within the existing rules ...


Ideas include getting rid of one class feature to gain full attack progression,

At lower levels, it does not matter that much. At higher levels try to get a magic item that provides a divine power effect (the level 4 core cleric spell). Full BAB, done. Temporary only, but you do not lose a class feature for it.


adding in those stances from DDO and thus the elemental attacks,

I am not familiar with DDO, but you can get something similar with combat maneuvers and stances from the Tome of Battle both as feats or as items. Maybe you find what you are looking for in there (one of the schools also has fire elemental attacks).


or maybe adding some more weapons to the monk weapon list.

You could do this by choosing a race with some new weapons (elf, for instance, for sword and longbow). I think there are also feats (in Eberron campaign setting) that allow you to treat non-monk weapons as monk weapons. Plus, you could also multiclass with fighter or paladin or a class that provides more weapon proficiencies.


Any thoughts?

For stuff to enhance monkiness, there are various inspirations to be found in core and non-core rules:
- feats (for instance, some good monk feats in the complete warrior)
- prestige classes (in case you want to do more magical stuff you can take prestige classes that advance both spellcasting and monk abilities)
- magic items. The link to a guide I once did has been posted above by Stoopidtallkid. Even though it is core only, it can provide some ideas on what spells and magic synergise best with monk abilities.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2009-12-17, 01:51 PM
Can't there just be a rule that pixies can't post new threads with the word Monk anywhere in it?
Then we'd get the Class That Must Not Be Toil- er, Named, or CTMNBN for short :smallbiggrin:

Eloel
2009-12-17, 01:52 PM
Let them buy partially charged wands. Yes, only them.

paddyfool
2009-12-17, 01:53 PM
Just because no-one else has said it yet: Tashalatora.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-17, 01:59 PM
"Uh, hi, Playground. I've been doing some thinking, and I've got some ideas to improve the class. I got it right here. One, the monk needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Two, whenever the monk's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's the monk"? Three--"

Eldariel
2009-12-17, 03:38 PM
I'll once again post my "quick & easy homebrew Monk fix" list:


6+Int Skill Points per level
Use Flurry on any attack (not just full attacks)
Extra attacks due to Flurry must be Unarmed Strikes or Shuriken
Proficient with unarmed strikes (duh)
Can get Unarmed Strikes/body enchanted with weapon/armor enhancements
Deal full Unarmed Strike damage with any Monk weapon (in melee)
At higher levels, make Quivering Palm usable reasonably often, make Perfect Self give DR that's not worthless, etc.


I do second this, but few other changes I find relevant:
- Make the Speed-bonus Untyped, not Enhancement. It sucks to not have Haste stack with the Monk speed bonus.
- Make the 1/day Monk-abilities and Quivering Palm usable Wis/day instead. Also, give +Wis Stunning Fist uses per day.
- Perfect Self gives DR/Chaotic (duh)
- Access to Intuitive Attack and "Improved Weapon Finesse" (that is, something to use Dex/Wis for attacks)
- Full BAB or use Combat Maneuvers as if they had full BAB
- Ability to derive Combat Maneuvers off Wis/Dex (they're the most "Monkish" thing in the game, after all)

Draz74
2009-12-17, 05:34 PM
I do second this, but few other changes I find relevant:
- Make the Speed-bonus Untyped, not Enhancement. It sucks to not have Haste stack with the Monk speed bonus.
Sure, why not. Or maybe make it Insight (stacks with pretty much everything except Speed of Thought, which has very similar flavor). If I did this, though, I'd probably nerf the amount of speed boosts the Monk gets, so you end up with +30 or +40 instead of +60.


- Make the 1/day Monk-abilities and Quivering Palm usable Wis/day instead. Also, give +Wis Stunning Fist uses per day.
- Perfect Self gives DR/Chaotic (duh)
Yeah, these are good examples of the "etc." in my post, that I was just too lazy to list out.


- Access to Intuitive Attack and "Improved Weapon Finesse" (that is, something to use Dex/Wis for attacks)
You mean as Bonus feats or something? Because they can already take these as Feats. I guess I wouldn't mind them getting added to the Bonus Feat options.


- Full BAB or use Combat Maneuvers as if they had full BAB
I disagree with Monk getting full BAB; IMHO medium BAB is supposed to be part of its style. I guess I could see full BAB for Grapple/Disarm purposes, though.


- Ability to derive Combat Maneuvers off Wis/Dex (they're the most "Monkish" thing in the game, after all)
No. Not without some kind of limit. One thing I definitely don't agree with is making the Monk able to dump Strength with no significant consequence. The archetypical Monk character is slim, but rippling with wiry muscles. (Monk should be MAD, IMHO. Then again, many other classes should be too, including casters.)

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-17, 05:57 PM
The monk used in ToS is pretty cool. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7503813&postcount=5)

infinitypanda
2009-12-17, 06:59 PM
He was referring to the classic Giamonk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704).

You know, something about "Giamonk" just doesn't seem right to me. I believe it should be the "Giacomonk." Just sounds better.

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-17, 08:52 PM
You mean as Bonus feats or something? Because they can already take these as Feats. I guess I wouldn't mind them getting added to the Bonus Feat options.

As someone who...well, did that, it's a reasonable option. They're already a bit MAD with having Dex, Wis, Str and Con as good choices because they don't have a good amount of HP, BAB, and because they have mondo good saves. Minimizing that MAD would certainly aid a lot.

Wis to attack and damage as a class feature is more than reasonable. Will mention it below.


I disagree with Monk getting full BAB; IMHO medium BAB is supposed to be part of its style. I guess I could see full BAB for Grapple/Disarm purposes, though.

Uh, no. Definitely, no. Medium BAB would be good if it has several other abilities to compensate; if it's meant to be on the frontlines, nothing lower than 16 BAB will cut it. Rogues can, but they have Sneak Attack; Monks have only a semi-dynamic damage increase that doesn't scale properly, and which depends on making as many attacks as possible: making them actually hit good is imperative.

You may want to get rid of Flurry or move it later, though, and make it one extra attack done as part of a full action. Or heck, keep it as is.


No. Not without some kind of limit. One thing I definitely don't agree with is making the Monk able to dump Strength with no significant consequence. The archetypical Monk character is slim, but rippling with wiry muscles. (Monk should be MAD, IMHO. Then again, many other classes should be too, including casters.)

This is where I dissent, where I retain the conversation, and where I draw the line. Making the Monk dependant on Wis while making it dependant equally on all three physical scores doesn't cut it that well. Making a low Str, high Wis monk that can hit just as hard, if not better, than a warrior just because the darn guy knows where to hit and the proper motion to hit and has the perception of training from ages makes more of a classic archetype than a high Str Monk, ripping with muscles while being slim. Leave slim-but-ripped to Bruce Lee (RIP); the closest thing to an archetypal Monk or Sohei would be closer to Li Mu Bai, even though he was also a magnificent swordsman and quite close to be a Swordsage rather than a Monk.

Also, there ARE consequences to low Str. First, your Strength checks are sucky: breaking a chest without actually attacking or, you know, trying to escape bonds without Escape Artist seems like a roughly bad idea. Second, your weight limit: without a decent Strength at least, you can't carry that much, or else your nifty abilities get lost. Finally, if a Monk is to be MAD, it *should* have a good reason to work that out. As it stands, making it almost completely SAD is a gift, compared to the casters who are pretty much SAD because their signature ability depends on a single kind of score, with a secondary ability score being Con. Archetypal Wizards are supposed to be frail, yet you have a great Con score just for the HP, the Fort save, and maximizing your Concentration in order to laugh at the Fighter for beating you with a stick.

So...if you're going to make the Monk dependant on Strength, make it less dependant on Dexterity or Constitution, or remove the entire silly dependancy on Wisdom altogether. But, if you're going to make a Wis-based martial attacker, make the darn thing count: adding Wis to combat maneuvers as well as attack and damage rolls is a sensible choice, since you're tying one score to what's really meant to the class.

Riffington
2009-12-17, 10:02 PM
Let them strike and grapple creatures that can't normally be. Ethereal, Blinking, Freedom of Movement, invulnerable, etc.

theMycon
2009-12-17, 11:32 PM
Three real changes are necessary to make it playable-
1: If you even suspect RAI might have given it to the monk (Unarmed strike == unarmed attack, Monks are proficient with unarmed attacks, the weapon with +4 to disarm checks doesn't get a -4 because it's light, etc.), give it to them.

2: Boost to full BAB. Though the above lets them get enchanted weapons the same way as everyone else, this still doesn't quite close the gap.

3: Flurry as a standard action. Not equivalent to their full attack, but the "two attacks at -2/-2, then at -1/-1, then 0/0. Then three at 0/0/0" thing the table describes.


If you want to make them decently balanced:
You can let them take Monster Feats- Improved Natural Attack and Ability Focus make the stunning fist into something to be feared, if Wis is your primary attribute (which I really suggest).

You can decide to let them enchant clothes as Magic Vestment (but a level 1 Pearl of Power & Party Wizard does this about as well).

You can give them wis to hit/dmg (Makes STR all-but-unnecessary, especially if...)

You can let trips/disarms/etc key to dex/wis. (Makes Str totally unnecessary, and I think it fits the flavor of monk well. Maybe let this be a feat.)


If you want to give them a big boost without making it look like you're doing anything:
Give the players fewer enemies immune to Stunning Fist.

AslanCross
2009-12-17, 11:45 PM
Let them strike and grapple creatures that can't normally be. Ethereal, Blinking, Freedom of Movement, invulnerable, etc.

The thought of a guy yanking an Ethereal Marauder out of Etherspace into the Material Plane is as awesome as it is ridiculous. :smallbiggrin:

Rainbownaga
2009-12-17, 11:56 PM
Free vorpal unarmed strikes and making abundant step and quivering palm encounter abilities instead of dailies?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-18, 12:25 AM
Free vorpal unarmed strikes and making abundant step and quivering palm encounter abilities instead of dailies?Totally wrong game, dude.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-18, 12:42 AM
You know, something about "Giamonk" just doesn't seem right to me. I believe it should be the "Giacomonk." Just sounds better.IIRC, it was called "the Gonk" for a while, until someone pointed out that that's a racial slur.

Asbestos
2009-12-18, 12:54 AM
The thought of a guy yanking an Ethereal Marauder out of Etherspace into the Material Plane is as awesome as it is ridiculous. :smallbiggrin:

Nah, waaaay too bitey. Grabbing a ghost out of the ether and wrestling it to the ground, way more awesome.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-18, 01:07 AM
Since I clearly don't know enough to leave a landmine topic alone, here's the 'fix' package I put in on the Monk for a player who really really wanted to play one but didn't want to just be a Swordsage:

-Full BAB
-Flurry as a Standard action
-Substitute Wisdom for Strength on any attack or damage roll.
-Subtract his Monk level from the DR of any opponent struck (replaced the ability to negate DR/Magic, DR/Lawful, etc.).

He's become the most powerful melee character in the party as a result, though admittedly his competition is a Sword-and-Board Crusader and a TWF Rogue who hasn't gotten Craven yet. Teaming with the Sorcerer for Enlarge Person has proved to cause hilarity to ensue, especially since he already has Imp. Natural Attack.

Doc Roc
2009-12-18, 01:39 AM
Za Warudo?
Wrrrryyyyyyy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7503813&postcount=5)!

Fitz10019
2009-12-18, 10:34 AM
Was Fonzie a charisma-based monk?

taltamir
2009-12-18, 11:19 AM
You and I clearly do not game with the same kind of people.

I was referring more to the people who said "I want to be a kung fu master" rather then the CharOp who says "mmm... a monk with UMD can be abused to create a very interesting psudeo wizard"

Doc Roc
2009-12-18, 11:24 AM
I was referring more to the people who said "I want to be a kung fu master" rather then the CharOp who says "mmm... a monk with UMD can be abused to create a very interesting psudeo wizard"

Hilariously, a Monk with UPD can create a pretty interesting psuedo-kung fu master.
Hilariously, a monk/ardent with tashalatoran creates a pretty impressive kung-fu master.
Our ways are the ways. In the highest form of articulation, char op is the ability through any way, mechanism, or approach, to impress your will upon the game and produce the most desirable form of a given archetype or character idea.
It's not optimization, it's not characterization. It's character optimization.

Ryumaru
2009-12-18, 11:49 AM
-Full BAB
-Flurry as a Standard action
-Substitute Wisdom for Strength on any attack or damage roll.
-Subtract his Monk level from the DR of any opponent struck (replaced the ability to negate DR/Magic, DR/Lawful, etc.).


I know I'm going to sound probably like an idiot for ranting about something like this, but this opinion just annoys me.

All these 'fixes' for Monks? If I was playing and had house-rules like this in play, I'd be annoyed as Hell.

Six attacks for a standard action? Hey, I'd love to play a Fighter who can run 80ft, smack someone six times with 2d10+whatever. But no. I play a Fighter or a Ranger? I have to stand there and do nothing to get my attacks.

Substitute Wisdom for attack/damage? No. Nor with Dexterity. One of the things I love about DnD is that characters (for the most part) need multiple stats; if the Monk is getting Wisdom to AC, Will, special abilities, attack and damage and just sticks 6 in Strength? I expect my Fighter to be able to be able to pound Strength through the roof, get my ranged attacks on Strength without a feat, and increase my AC with it.

Even then, it goes against the entire -point- of the class. I know -very- few styles which rely on 'You don't need enough Strength to do a push-up. All you do is punch someone -here- and they're done'. MAD is perfectly fitting for Monk, because from everything I've seen, most Eastern martial arts philosophys I've seen stress perfection of self, not 'Focus on being wise and forsake your body'

As for the last part, I entirely agree. Monks need -some- way to properly bypass DR, and the hoops and hurdles they have to go through just to get enhancement is ridiculous. I'd probably rule it as a class feature somewhat similar to the Oriental Adventures Samurai; every so many levels, you spend GP to get training from your sensei, pay for gifts and offerings, etc. equal to the cost of a weapon's bonus normally. I know Monks are supposed to be all about improving yourself, but giving them weapons which can't be taken away, and given +5 without a penny would irk me, especially with how often my DM would smash my Rogue's rapiers to pieces, and I'd need to fork out another 30k GP on a new sword.

taltamir
2009-12-18, 12:01 PM
not all fixes are cut from the same cloth. Some are less sensible then others.

The "standard action full attack" is ridiculously good and no class should get it.

And you made a mistake, its not "you run 80 feet and smack someone 6 times", its "you use mobility to run 40 feet, smack someone 6 times, then run 40 feet away so he can't smack you back... rinse and repeat".

Surgo
2009-12-18, 12:40 PM
More Monk fixes need to think outside the box (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29).

erikun
2009-12-18, 12:48 PM
My general suggestions:


Ki Strike (+1) increasing every three levels. So Ki Strike (+2) at 6th level, Ki Strike (+3) at 9th level, and so on to Ki Strike (+5) at 15th level. This fixes the otherwise low BAB, and allows the Monk to bypass DR and immunities.
Change Ki Strike (Lawful) to Ki Strike (Alignment), where alignment matches the Monk's alignment. Again, help with overcomming the DR on demons (or angels, for the evil ones).
Allow the Monk to wear armor which has no Dex Penality, while retaining Monk class features. If it's good enough for a Wizard, it should be good enough for a Monk.
Add WIS to hit during a flurry. Possibly to damage. Again, helping with the damage problem, and less MADness. I'm a bit hesitant to add WIS to damage, even though a Monk's flurry is supposed to hurt.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 01:57 PM
Make the monk's unarmed attack an natural weapon and thus allow them to use their str bonus. That'd solve many problems. Also, treat their other fists, elbows, feet and knees as secondary weapons. Heh, 26 attacks in one round, that'd be something to see.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-18, 01:59 PM
I know I'm going to sound probably like an idiot for ranting about something like this, but this opinion just annoys me.

All these 'fixes' for Monks? If I was playing and had house-rules like this in play, I'd be annoyed as Hell.

Six attacks for a standard action? Hey, I'd love to play a Fighter who can run 80ft, smack someone six times with 2d10+whatever. But no. I play a Fighter or a Ranger? I have to stand there and do nothing to get my attacks.

Substitute Wisdom for attack/damage? No. Nor with Dexterity. One of the things I love about DnD is that characters (for the most part) need multiple stats; if the Monk is getting Wisdom to AC, Will, special abilities, attack and damage and just sticks 6 in Strength? I expect my Fighter to be able to be able to pound Strength through the roof, get my ranged attacks on Strength without a feat, and increase my AC with it.

Even then, it goes against the entire -point- of the class. I know -very- few styles which rely on 'You don't need enough Strength to do a push-up. All you do is punch someone -here- and they're done'. MAD is perfectly fitting for Monk, because from everything I've seen, most Eastern martial arts philosophys I've seen stress perfection of self, not 'Focus on being wise and forsake your body'

As for the last part, I entirely agree. Monks need -some- way to properly bypass DR, and the hoops and hurdles they have to go through just to get enhancement is ridiculous. I'd probably rule it as a class feature somewhat similar to the Oriental Adventures Samurai; every so many levels, you spend GP to get training from your sensei, pay for gifts and offerings, etc. equal to the cost of a weapon's bonus normally. I know Monks are supposed to be all about improving yourself, but giving them weapons which can't be taken away, and given +5 without a penny would irk me, especially with how often my DM would smash my Rogue's rapiers to pieces, and I'd need to fork out another 30k GP on a new sword.

To be fair to the Fighter, I also gave it some major boosts, taking Bears With Laser's Arts of War - one of which is Pounce - and also folding in Marshal Auras (Ranger got scrapped entirely because it was redundant) - if I had a player who wanted to be a Ranger, I'd hand him the Fighter+1 and the Wild Cohort feat. With the game currently at level 4, the Monk's two attacks aren't decidedly overpowered compared to a theoretical Fighter who'd be competing with him, and he still has to take Flurry penalties (and will forever, -1 per extra attack instead of -2 early and getting lower). Monk wasn't the only class I overhauled, Fighter turned into more of a 'Commander' archetype while the Warblade moved up to the 'beat people's face with pointy things' role.

We're just fundamentally opposed on the stat issue, I guess... 'Focus on being wise and forsake your body' doesn't really apply so much when Dexterity and Constitution are both stats related to your body as much as Strength is, and a Monk would suffer severe penalties from dumping either of those. The Fighter, or equivalent weapon-using melee class, doesn't get his Strength to AC because his ability to wear (enchanted) armor and shield (animated for optimization) can quickly and easily outstrip the Monk's inherent AC boosts. As a bit of an aside, the fluff of this beefed 'Monk' is more psionic in nature than anything, an unconscious channel for natural energies, but that's not really relevant to the mechanics part of this argument.

Regarding the DR - not really a fair comparison, since the Monk doesn't get any sort of enhancement bonuses automatically - he'll have to buy gauntlets or enchanted handwraps to get those bonuses once he can afford them. It's more like the level 1 weapon-using melee buying a Silver Longsword and being able to narm werewolves, while the Monk gets to harm werewolves 1/5 or 1/10 as much, while also being able to harm golems/demons/undead fractionally more effectively. A weapon-using melee would still have to buy a bludgeoning weapon, an adamantine weapon, a silver weapon, etc., for no effective change, but now the Monk isn't horribly hosed vs. said material-vulnerable foes, though he'll almost never be able to completely negate DR the way a weapon-user with the proper tool for the job would be.

Zeful
2009-12-18, 02:03 PM
Answer: Sit down and rewrite the entire class.

'Cause after all, that's what most people here are doing.

Optimystik
2009-12-18, 02:13 PM
Just have your Unarmed Swordsage seclude himself in the mountains away from girls with a lot of wuxia films. I fail to see the problem.

Ryumaru
2009-12-18, 02:50 PM
doesn't get his Strength to AC because his ability to wear (enchanted) armor and shield (animated for optimization) can quickly and easily outstrip the Monk's inherent AC boosts.

You do give some decent explainations, but this I can't agree with; Monks, say with average Wisdom (14 for the adventering sort, we'll say), 16 from two level boosts, 20 from +5 Wisdom item... That's +5, plus whatever they get from Dexterity, and then you have Bracers of Armour.

Fighters, if they go the heavy armour route (admittedly, what I try to avoid), are stuck at... +13 from +5 full plate, and +1 from Dex? +2/+3 if they make it mithril, but otherwise... I don't see the difference in AC. Shields can easily be replaced with a potion of shield, ring of shield.

Milskidasith
2009-12-18, 02:52 PM
IIRC, isn't DDO monk powerful because AC is important due to a lack of wizard spells, and because of the absurd ability scores you can get (50+ in your primary stat or two, and 30+ in everything else) Wis to AC is just that important, as is evasion?

Tavar
2009-12-18, 03:13 PM
Well, the main thing about the fighter is, wealth being equal, he needs less money to get a higher AC, thus can spend his money on other things. For example, at 10th level, a fighter is in +2 Full Plate(why wouldn't you go heavy?), for 5650gp. Assuming dex of at least 12, that puts him at an ac of 21.

To get the same AC, assuming Dex and Wisdom of 16, the monk has to up his ac by three, let's say by getting Bracesr of Armor +3. That cost him a total of 9000gp, or about a 5th of his wealth by level. And frankly, AC 21 by level 10 is very poor. So the monk gets some stat boosting items, raising both his dex and wis by 2. His AC is now 23, but he's spent another 8000gp to do it, and combat focused characters are still going to hit him more often than not.

And this isn't even looking at the fact that the Monk still needs at least 2 other stats to be effective, and needs them relatively high.

Ryumaru
2009-12-18, 03:54 PM
Well, the main thing about the fighter is, wealth being equal, he needs less money to get a higher AC, thus can spend his money on other things. For example, at 10th level, a fighter is in +2 Full Plate(why wouldn't you go heavy?), for 5650gp. Assuming dex of at least 12, that puts him at an ac of 21.

Eh, if I'm honest? I tend to play very anime style fighters; high Charisma and Dexterity pretty boys with BFS's. ;D And the slow, lumbering fighter archetype bores me to Hell (as does the frail, book reading Wizard; hence, I tend towards Eldritch Knights and similar)

Tavar
2009-12-18, 03:57 PM
Eh, if I'm honest? I tend to play very anime style fighters; high Charisma and Dexterity pretty boys with BFS's. ;D And the slow, lumbering fighter archetype bores me to Hell (as does the frail, book reading Wizard; hence, I tend towards Eldritch Knights and similar)

Well, okay. Have you considered not playing fighters, in that case? They really aren't built for that kind of stuff.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 04:01 PM
If I were to make monks able to do the stuff Neo does in the third and second matrix movies by level 15, would they be overpowered? :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2009-12-18, 04:31 PM
You do give some decent explainations, but this I can't agree with; Monks, say with average Wisdom (14 for the adventering sort, we'll say), 16 from two level boosts, 20 from +5 Wisdom item... That's +5, plus whatever they get from Dexterity, and then you have Bracers of Armour.

Fighters, if they go the heavy armour route (admittedly, what I try to avoid), are stuck at... +13 from +5 full plate, and +1 from Dex? +2/+3 if they make it mithril, but otherwise... I don't see the difference in AC. Shields can easily be replaced with a potion of shield, ring of shield.

Well, let's see. I'd give the monk a 16 starting Wis myself though, and give both characters Dex 14.

At level 1:

Monk has +3 from Wisdom, +2 from Dex, no magical gear. Total of 15, touch of15, flat-footed of 13.
Fighter has +4 from non-magical Scale Mail, +2 from Dex. Total of 16, though a Touch of only 12, but a flat-footed of 14.

At level 8:

Both characters have an indeterminate amount of gold to spend, which is copyrighted but likely to be close to three cubed in thousands. Let's assume they each spend half of that on AC, and save the other half for offensive stuff, since the Monk does have to pay for magical handwraps to keep his punches accurate.
Monk now has +4 from Wisdom after two level boosts, buys +2 bracers of Armor for 4K, a Ring of Force Shield for 8.5K and another +2, and gets a Ring of Deflection +1 for 2K. Total spending of 14.5K, a little over budget but acceptable, since by now he has Anti-DR of 8 to balance the Fighter's slightly higher offensive spending.
---
The Fighter buys a suit of Masterwork Full Plate for 1.65K, replacing his Scale Mail and increasing AC by 4. An animated shield is still out of budget, since he's probably THF to keep up with the Monk's damage output, but he can also buy a Ring of Protection +1, and enchant his new plate armor up to +3. Total spending of 12.65K - slightly under budget, but there's nothing else he can really effectively get.
---
Level 8 Monk AC: +4 from Wisdom, +2 from Dex, +2 from Bracers, +2 from Shield Ring, +1 from Deflection Ring, and his inherent Monk AC of +1. Total of 22, touch of 18 (22 vs. incorporeals), flat-footed of 20.
Level 8 Fighter AC: +11 from +3 Full Plate, +1 from Dex, +1 from Deflection Ring. Total of 23, touch of 12, flat-footed of 22.

At level 16:

Now we get to throw around the big bucks, a non-SRD number that is more than 259,000 and less than 261,000. Again, assume for fair comparison that the contestants have no handy caster to GMW their gear and must save half their WBL for offensive capabilities and utility (for example, flight...both are utterly screwed if they can't fly at this level, whatever their AC).
The Monk's Wisdom is up to +5. He can easily afford a +6 Wisdom booster (36K), a +4 Dex booster (16K), his old Shield Ring (8.5K), +4 Armor Bracers (16K), a +3 Deflection Ring (18K), an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (18K), a +1 Insight Ioun Stone (5K) and let's get him a Monk's Belt (13K). He's spent a total of 130.5K, almost spot on budget.
---
Fighter is now sporting some juicy +5 Mithril Full Plate (35.65K), and a +4 Animated Heavy Steel Shield (36.15K). Now that his Dex max is increased, he snags a +4 Dex item (16K), a Ring of Deflection +3 (18K), a +1 Insight Ioun Stone (5K), a +3 Amulet of Natural Armor (18K). Total spending of 128.8K, almost on budget again.
---
Level 16 Monk AC: +8 Wisdom, +4 Dex, +2 Shield, +3 Deflection, +4 Armor, +3 Natural, +1 Insight, +4 Monkeyness. Total of 39, 33 vs. touch (39 vs. incorporeal), 35 vs. flat-footed.
Level 16 Fighter AC: +13 Armor, +6 Shield, +3 Dex, +3 Deflection, +1 Insight, +3 Natural. Total of 39, 20 vs. touch, 36 vs. flat-footed.


Level 20.

Rolling in gold now, a ridiculous amount of money averaging between 759,000 and 761,000. With half of that for AC-boosting, let's see what we can accomplish.
Monk: +6 Wis item (36K), +6 Dex item (36K), +8 Armor bracers (64K), +5 Deflection ring (50K), +5 Natural Armor (50K), +2 Shield Ring (8.5K), +1 Insight Stone (5K), +2 Tome of Inherent Dex, +3 Tome of Inherent Wis, but no Monk's belt since it wouldn't do anything. I've run out of core AC-boosters to buy for him, and his total expenditure is 351,000, much less than his allotted budget. His final Wisdom is 24 before the item, his final Dex 16.
---
Meanwhile, the Fighter still has his +5 Mithril Full Plate (35.65K), a +5 Animated Heavy Steel Shield (49.15K), a +4 Dex item (16K), a Ring of Deflection +5 (50K), a +1 Insight Ioun Stone (5K), and a +3 Amulet of Natural Armor (50K). He's also run out of AC-boosters in Core, after only spending 205.8K, blowing the Monk's thriftiness out of the water.
However...
Monk's ending AC is +10 Wisdom, +6 Dex, +8 Armor, +5 Deflection, +5 Natural, +2 Shield, +1 Insight, and +4 Monktasticness. Total of 51, 41 vs. touch (51 vs. incorporeals), 45 vs. flat-footed.
The poor Fighter has his +13 Armor, +7 Shield, +3 Dex, +5 Deflection, +5 Natural, +1 Insight. Total of only 44, 24 against touch, 41 vs. flat-footed.


All of the gear was chosen for efficiency (maximum AC increase vs. gold spent), and is assuming that they don't have a caster to give them GMW or GMV. Both characters are, unless I screwed up something big or missed a really easy cheap way to give lots of AC via gear, keeping roughly on par without spending an undue amount of money to do so. Not until level 20 does the Monk show a significant dominance over the Fighter in AC, and only a small percentage of games actually play at that level, and it costs him 50% more cash to get a 20% AC advantage. And most monsters will hit both of them anyways...a Titan has +37 to hit, a Wyrm Black Dragon has a to-hit in the 40's with a lot of attacks, the Tarrasque has +57. Balors and Pit Fiends only swing in the low +30's, but they have a lot of deadly SLA's to use instead.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-18, 04:37 PM
Six attacks for a standard action? Hey, I'd love to play a Fighter who can run 80ft, smack someone six times with 2d10+whatever. But no. I play a Fighter or a Ranger? I have to stand there and do nothing to get my attacks.This is ssimple misunderstanding. What the usual meaning of this is they get the bonus Flurry attacks on a standard action, so they actually can move and use Flurry. Thats 2 or 3 attacks, not 6.


Substitute Wisdom for attack/damage? No. Nor with Dexterity. One of the things I love about DnD is that characters (for the most part) need multiple stats; if the Monk is getting Wisdom to AC, Will, special abilities, attack and damage and just sticks 6 in Strength? I expect my Fighter to be able to be able to pound Strength through the roof, get my ranged attacks on Strength without a feat, and increase my AC with it.Do you not play spellcasters? The amount of MAD is one of the main weaknesses of the Monk, while Druids are running off Wis and Con and Elf Wizards have straight 8s and 36 Int. Right now, the Monk needs Str(Hit, Damage), Dex(AC), Con(HP), and Wis(AC, Stunning Fist). Even the Fighter only needs Str, Con, and either Dex 13 or Int 13. All this fix does is eliminate Str from the Monk's list of needed stats, bringing him to parity with the fighter.


Even then, it goes against the entire -point- of the class. I know -very- few styles which rely on 'You don't need enough Strength to do a push-up. All you do is punch someone -here- and they're done'. MAD is perfectly fitting for Monk, because from everything I've seen, most Eastern martial arts philosophys I've seen stress perfection of self, not 'Focus on being wise and forsake your body'So would you rather the Monk require 40 pt-buy to not suck? That seems like it would make balancing multiclassing...difficult.

Riffington
2009-12-18, 04:53 PM
So would you rather the Monk require 40 pt-buy to not suck? That seems like it would make balancing multiclassing...difficult.

This is an idea I haven't seen thrown around, wondering how it'd work:
what if Monk gave you attribute bonuses. Something like:
Monk 5: all your attributes below [11 + racial mods] are set to [11+racial mods]. Add one point to this for every 3 levels above level 5.
That would help out with MAD somewhat, and makes a little sense (monk is all about the intensive training of body/mind/spirit)...

Ryumaru
2009-12-18, 05:01 PM
Do you not play spellcasters? The amount of MAD is one of the main weaknesses of the Monk, while Druids are running off Wis and Con and Elf Wizards have straight 8s and 36 Int. Right now, the Monk needs Str(Hit, Damage), Dex(AC), Con(HP), and Wis(AC, Stunning Fist). Even the Fighter only needs Str, Con, and either Dex 13 or Int 13. All this fix does is eliminate Str from the Monk's list of needed stats, bringing him to parity with the fighter.

No, I don't; only caster I've ever played was a Psion/Cleric Gestalt, and even then, he was 'buff the crap out of Strength and size, whack things with a bastard sword'


So would you rather the Monk require 40 pt-buy to not suck? That seems like it would make balancing multiclassing...difficult.

And this is why I avoid games which use point-buy for characters, and stick with high-power rolling. ;D Point buy just plays to the strengths of already ultra-powerful classes.

Tavar
2009-12-18, 05:06 PM
No, I don't; only caster I've ever played was a Psion/Cleric Gestalt, and even then, he was 'buff the crap out of Strength and size, whack things with a bastard sword'
Still, Monk is one of the MADist classes out there, and the one that suffers most for it.



And this is why I avoid games which use point-buy for characters, and stick with high-power rolling. ;D Point buy just plays to the strengths of already ultra-powerful classes.
I don't know, high point buys generally help melee more than casters: Most rolling methods produce workable caster's, but poor melee.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-18, 05:13 PM
And this is why I avoid games which use point-buy for characters, and stick with high-power rolling. ;D Point buy just plays to the strengths of already ultra-powerful classes....I fail to see the difference, other than randomness, between high pt-buy and high-power rolling.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-18, 05:36 PM
I don't know, high point buys generally help melee more than casters: Most rolling methods produce workable caster's, but poor melee.

I tend to find the reverse. With rolling you're more likely to have a bunch of decent ability scores than to have one completely overpowering ability and several low ones. Casters generally just need one high score, melee generally needs Con and Str or Dex at least, and often all three plus a mental stat.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-18, 06:02 PM
With rolling you're more likely to have a bunch of decent ability scores than to have one completely overpowering ability and several low ones.

Funny, my dice rolls tend to give me overpowering abilities and low abilities, compared to point buy where I moderate myself more...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-18, 06:44 PM
I was referring more to the people who said "I want to be a kung fu master" rather then the CharOp who says "mmm... a monk with UMD can be abused to create a very interesting psudeo wizard"

It wasn't anyone on CharOp who said it.

Tyrmatt
2009-12-19, 03:51 PM
The monk used in ToS is pretty cool. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7503813&postcount=5)

I love this monk idea, purely because I can name my fighting styles whatever I want :D
I have memories of the second edition monk being an unstoppable behemoth who slapped aside demons without a thought. What did it have that got remove in 3.5?

Mongoose87
2009-12-19, 04:55 PM
2E was generally kinder to melee-types. Also, the attribute system meant that you were rewarded for having very high attributes, punish for very low, but there was little difference, combat-wise, between the middle levels.

Soranar
2009-12-19, 06:46 PM
how to make a monk decent without shadowing the typical warrior

warrior (any typical tank class) needs STR, CON and can use a little DEX, INT

gets full BAB, d10 HP, 1 or two good saves and useful features

at level 20 uses a weapon with +5 enchant to BAB and Damage


Monk needs STR, DEX, CON, WIS , while 3 stats is doable , 4 is simply too much unless you don't use a basic race

at level 20 uses a monk weapon with +5 in damage or a fist with no enhancements to damage

gets 3/4 BAB, d8 HP, good saves and several features of questionable value, also unable to customize them as much as a normal fighter

So I would agree with the full BAB and use Wisdom to damage (if using a monk weapon) (you can always take weapon finesse or such to get a hit bonus)

BUT

if you multiclass you lose the full BAB for medium and you lose the wisdom damage, otherwise any munchkin would just use 1 or 11 level of monk

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-19, 06:48 PM
How's that worse than the current situation where people only use 2 levels of monk?