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View Full Version : CMU develops interactive D&D, Part II



Person_Man
2009-12-17, 12:28 PM
So some Carnegie Mellon students have used Microsoft Surface to make a pretty cool D&D table. There first demo was out a couple months ago, and there was a brief thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165669) on the subject.

Now there is more to see. (http://gizmodo.com/5428620/way-more-dd-on-the-microsoft-surface)

Discuss.

Ormagoden
2009-12-17, 12:29 PM
Thanks for keeping us up to date PM :smallcool:

gdiddy
2009-12-17, 01:24 PM
Not sure if I like the idea. Look neat, though.

Rixx
2009-12-17, 01:40 PM
This does look neat! It would be cool if they made a system-neutral version that just provided maps, though, without automating any of the game rules.

Ormagoden
2009-12-17, 01:43 PM
considering the "table" its on cost 120,000$ its a bit out of reach for most (the developer suite cost 320,000$ if you were wondering.)

I see it mostly useful for the people that really love 4e. Its practically a video game/anime already so having a digital table top for it isn't a stretch.

Too bad they don't make one with a camera and a projector instead it would be LOADS cheaper. Hey...wait a minute...

Now if there was only a good patent lawyer around here some where...

kjones
2009-12-17, 05:35 PM
First off, it's worth noting that this kind of system is a long way off from being anything even remotely resembling affordable. So this might revolutionize tabletop gaming, but not within the next 10-20 years.

Second, if this actually ends up being practical, I imagine it would look a lot different than it does in the video. I can't imagine most DMs drawing their own detailed, full-color, digital maps (not to mention all the game-logic you'd have to program in... "Rocks block movement and LOS, glass blocks movement but not LOS", etc.) so you'd either be playing on a regular grid, like a whiteboard cranked up to eleven, or you'd be able to do some basic drag-and-drop stuff with prepackaged graphics, or you buy the maps and monster models when you buy a module, which would be like buying a video game today.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you were a DM using this thing, it would be hard to make your own adventures for it. That would really change what it means to be a DM.

Also, is it just me, or does their die-roller seem really awkward and silly-looking? It just... doesn't look like an actual die being rolled to me. They mention the possibility of using real dice with it somehow (maybe it can "read" the side of the die facing down, and extrapolate? Or maybe you need special dice?) and that would be cool. The visceral feel of die-rolling is an important part of the game for me.

Finally... Go CMU! :smalltongue: We do awesome stuff like this all the time. (Although technically this isn't CMU, but rather the ETC, which is a specific graduate program. It's not like I'm passing these guys in the halls or anything.)

Emmerask
2009-12-17, 05:53 PM
First off, it's worth noting that this kind of system is a long way off from being anything even remotely resembling affordable. So this might revolutionize tabletop gaming, but not within the next 10-20 years.


In 10-20years though augmented reality might be ready for the gaming world (and affordable) which I think is vastly superior to such a table system.

Augmented reality toys (wip) http://vimeo.com/6885648
still waiting on the java framework that was promised though :-/

Anyway the gaming table is still nice :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2009-12-18, 10:21 AM
I'm a bit more optimistic about how soon we'll be getting a table like this to play D&D on, and how cheap it will be. Not everyone on this forum may remember the past 30 years (and trust me, you didn't miss anything in the 80's) but it's been my experience that once a technology exists and has a commercial demand, then it will be available to the high end market within 5-10 years. I know that it's hard to imagine, but 5 years ago smart phones and GPS barely existed. 10 years ago wide screen tvs, digital cameras, and cell phones were luxury items, and social networking sites and software were just starting off. 15 years ago access to computers and the internet was limited to colleges and certain professionals. So now that big touch screens are technologically feasible and have the backing of a major company, I think it will be 5ish years before they get down to $2000ish, and within 10 years it'll be down to the $400ish (standard game system) range.

And I assume they'll be used for a lot more then D&D. (Which of course, will have been rewritten again into 5E be the time it comes out). It will probably launch the next generation of video game development. And I could see it being very useful for various military and engineering applications as well.

Emmerask
2009-12-18, 10:52 AM
Although I think 5ish years to 2000$ is a bit too optimistic I generelly agree that it will be available for an affordable price the problem is that the prices on such things goes down significantly with mass production (see 22" tft displays).

But in general it is very hard to imagine what will be or wont be possible 5-10 years in the future some of the best heads do this and they are almost everytime wrong either being hugely to opimistic ie "we are all flying rocket cars by now" :smallbiggrin: or very pessimistic "I can see a market for 5 to 8 computers world wide"

Optimystik
2009-12-18, 11:04 AM
Holy ****. This is over 9000 kinds of awesome.

Will be glued to this for future updates.

Mongoose87
2009-12-18, 11:05 AM
(Which of course, will have been rewritten again into 5E be the time it comes out).

And if you didn't like 4E, wait'll you see 5E!

Grommen
2009-12-18, 11:24 AM
That is truly an awesome engine to tell a story with. I make my own maps for play on-line already. So adding a detail layer with LOS and all that junk would take me a few more minutes. Compare that to the time taken to explain the map to players, what they really are seeing, and to manipulate fog of war and stuff like that. Just sick the things I could come up with just sitting here now. I want me one!

5 years is nothing in time. The price of my first computer was in the thousands, and it barely did anything other than add. Five years latter, My latest laptop cost a mere $700 (and that was mid price), and it has enough computing power run a moon landing. That app has far more potential than as a computer game. So the asking price will drop significantly in the very near future when developers, including game makers, get a hold of it. The gaming world (including video games) generates more money than Hollywood, so their are a great number of people interested in generating the next big thing. Once people figure out how to get the price point down to $300 or so we will have one very kool toy to mess with. Trust me 5 years max and this is going to hit your house.

Remember Plasma screens? 10K for one 5 years ago. Now the same size is $899 at Wallie's Mart down the block.

Although a generic rules set would be greatly welcomed. The problem with house rules is that their ah...Well their house rules, computer programs can't simulate them unless someone programs them in. Given the nature of house rules this is unlikely (less you know how to program).

Really the only problem I see with the die roller is that you can't pick up the die and toss it across the room when it rolls bad, and I hope that they keep the auto hit fetcher on for NPC's. I hate when I miss a player.

I hope I'm alive to see the day when someone invents a holographic environment capable of supporting live interactive worlds. One day my geeks....one day.

valadil
2009-12-18, 11:25 AM
Second, if this actually ends up being practical, I imagine it would look a lot different than it does in the video. I can't imagine most DMs drawing their own detailed, full-color, digital maps (not to mention all the game-logic you'd have to program in... "Rocks block movement and LOS, glass blocks movement but not LOS", etc.) so you'd either be playing on a regular grid, like a whiteboard cranked up to eleven, or you'd be able to do some basic drag-and-drop stuff with prepackaged graphics, or you buy the maps and monster models when you buy a module, which would be like buying a video game today.

Also, is it just me, or does their die-roller seem really awkward and silly-looking? It just... doesn't look like an actual die being rolled to me. They mention the possibility of using real dice with it somehow (maybe it can "read" the side of the die facing down, and extrapolate? Or maybe you need special dice?) and that would be cool. The visceral feel of die-rolling is an important part of the game for me.



I assume they'd sell the D&D software to owners of the table. I imagine it would be something like a map editor in a video game.

I agree on the die roller, but I wouldn't want to throw real dice at a $160k table. I'm sure they'll find a way to improve it.

I like the system as a battle map, but I wouldn't want it to play the game for me.

Person_Man
2009-12-18, 02:53 PM
In 10-20years though augmented reality might be ready for the gaming world (and affordable) which I think is vastly superior to such a table system.

Augmented reality toys (wip) http://vimeo.com/6885648
still waiting on the java framework that was promised though :-/

That link was even cooler then mine. I want to relive my childhood so that I can re-fight my transformers vs thundercats battles with that technology.



But in general it is very hard to imagine what will be or wont be possible 5-10 years in the future some of the best heads do this and they are almost everytime wrong either being hugely to opimistic ie "we are all flying rocket cars by now" :smallbiggrin: or very pessimistic "I can see a market for 5 to 8 computers world wide"

While I agree with your overall sentiment, I'd observe that rocket car technology doesn't currently exist. (To my knowledge. If it does, please link to it. Cause that would be awesome).

Touch screen, wide screen, fast computer processors, and robust graphic software all exist. It's simply a matter of putting them together (which Microsoft has already done), finding interesting applications for it (which CMU and other developers are currently doing), and mass producing them in China.

Also, imagine what will happen when, shall we say, less scrupulous developers get their hands on this technology, if you know what I mean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKnowWhatIMean). I'd be willing to argue that the VCR, dvd, laptops, the internet, and smart phones gained widespread acceptance precisely for that reason.

PinkysBrain
2009-12-18, 04:54 PM
First off, it's worth noting that this kind of system is a long way off from being anything even remotely resembling affordable. So this might revolutionize tabletop gaming, but not within the next 10-20 years.
Disregarding total breakdown of the global economy I expect to be able to buy decent sized multitouch autostereoscopic displays (ie. 3D) for a couple 100 bucks in 10 years ... let alone something trivial like a simple multitouch display.

Second, if this actually ends up being practical, I imagine it would look a lot different than it does in the video. I can't imagine most DMs drawing their own detailed, full-color, digital maps
Why not? With a tile based system it's really not that much work. A hell of a lot less work than the 3D tileset and papercraft stuff some people already use.

An automatic generator for random encounters wouldn't be too hard to create either (ie. for instance a roadside encounter generator with options such as "farmhouse nearby" "abandoned y/n", "across/along river", "tree distance left/right" etc).

(not to mention all the game-logic you'd have to program in... "Rocks block movement and LOS, glass blocks movement but not LOS", etc.)
Only the LOS rules are really essential because that is automated and going back to the classic method of handling things ("you can't see that right now") would be rather grating ... overruling the inbuilt movement rules is hardly going to be an issue though, you move your character, a warning pops up on the DM screen and he summarily ignores it ... done.

or you buy the maps and monster models when you buy a module, which would be like buying a video game today.
Most modules already come with quite a few encounter maps anyway ... so it would be like buying a module today.

It just... doesn't look like an actual die being rolled to me. They mention the possibility of using real dice with it somehow (maybe it can "read" the side of the die facing down
Such high definition recognition of fiducials is pretty hard/expensive (with projection displays the display surface has to be diffusive, at least for the projected light from behind, making it hard to get a clear picture of what's on the table and with a LCD display you would need to put a camera between the LCD and it's backlight). It would be easier to just put a camera above the table to read the dice ...

PinkysBrain
2009-12-18, 05:09 PM
In 10-20years though augmented reality might be ready for the gaming world (and affordable) which I think is vastly superior to such a table system.
A world overrun with pervasive WoD LARPers ahoy.

Keld Denar
2009-12-18, 05:12 PM
I'm not terribly optimistic. I still don't have that flying car I was promised 20 years ago...

PinkysBrain
2009-12-18, 05:16 PM
You could build your own multitouch table right now for around a 1000$.