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madtinker
2009-12-17, 01:01 PM
I am running a 3.5e play by post game here, and one of my players thought you add dex to damage on a ranged attack. Turns out that's 4e standard. I kinda wondered why it isn't that way in 3.5e, so I decided to house rule it in (the character build relied on that). No big deal, and it makes more sense to me anyway.

My question is, would allowing a thrown weapon do the same thing be unbalancing? Adding dexterity as well as strength sounds like a bit much, but since a lot of thrown weapons are underpowered anyway, would it make a difference?

I am wary of too many house rules, but this one makes sense to me, and I think I could build some quite flavorful villains from it. A cursory search of the forum didn't turn up anything, but if this has been discussed somewhere, just point me there.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-17, 01:04 PM
Thrown weapons are better than archery already because they add Str. You fixed this by giving Archers Dex. Don't give them Dex as well, or you're back to the best archers using greatswords. :smallannoyed:

Milskidasith
2009-12-17, 01:09 PM
Give them either dex (hitting the right spot) or strength (hitting really friggin' hard), but not both.

Hawriel
2009-12-17, 01:12 PM
Use a compound bow, no need for the house rule.

Thajocoth
2009-12-17, 01:14 PM
4e gives str for heavy thrown and dex for light thrown. You could do something like that.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-17, 01:17 PM
If it works for you, run with it. I can't see this slight advantage breaking the game wide open.

Unless you've also banned Protection from Arrows and Wind Wall.

valadil
2009-12-17, 01:30 PM
How does dex to damage work when the player also has a mighty bow? I don't think archers should effectively have 2 stats applying to damage when melees only have 1.

madtinker
2009-12-17, 01:40 PM
I've been wondering that myself. Any 4e guys out there care to enlighten us?

Tavar
2009-12-17, 01:42 PM
How does dex to damage work when the player also has a mighty bow? I don't think archers should effectively have 2 stats applying to damage when melees only have 1.

Considering the truly massive number of ways to boost melee damage, compared to the very few ways to boost ranged damage, I don't think this is really a problem. Plus, Ranged combat is much more expensive in terms of feats and equipment.

Person_Man
2009-12-17, 01:43 PM
Brutal Throw lets you use your Str bonus To-Hit for thrown weapons, which also reduces MAD, but from the opposite direction. Bloodstorm Blade can treat thrown weapons as melee weapons, which opens up tons of bonus damage options (Power Attack).

Setra
2009-12-17, 01:46 PM
How does dex to damage work when the player also has a mighty bow? I don't think archers should effectively have 2 stats applying to damage when melees only have 1.
But the melee can power attack for 1d12+100 damage...

Amphetryon
2009-12-17, 02:12 PM
How does dex to damage work when the player also has a mighty bow? I don't think archers should effectively have 2 stats applying to damage when melees only have 1.

Just for the record, it's really fairly easy for a melee type to apply multiple attributes to damage: Snowflake Wardance, Shiba Protector, Champion of Corellon Larethian...

ericgrau
2009-12-17, 02:29 PM
It depends how many splatbooks you allow. Shock trooper and what not feats add crazy melee damage. Core only ranged damage is a little MAD and requires a composite bow, but otherwise in core it has a million and one advantages: tactical uses, conditional AC combat modifiers, more full attacks, an extra attack with only one weapon, ranged specific items and feats, stacking weapon and arrow damage, carrying around multiple kinds of arrows for DR is way easier than a golfbag of melee weapons, etc., etc. Assuming the DM sets up an kind of terrain at all, bows are powerful.

Thrown weapons OTOH seem to get shafted even in core. You can pull off a lot of attacks if your targets have low AC but once you can afford magic weapons it's all over. A bola tripper may work well though,.

madtinker
2009-12-17, 02:40 PM
This game is almost purely core only, and the characters are still at level one.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-17, 03:31 PM
I've been wondering that myself. Any 4e guys out there care to enlighten us?

Don't even try to call me a 4E guy but the advantage really just doesn't matter in 4E.

You always use powers that give either your best or second best stat to hit and to damage. A "ranged basic attack" which would be you shooting one arrow at one target is almost never used. Also there is no BaB to give you multiple attacks on a full attack (there is no "full attack") and most powers will only let you apply the damage boosting stat once, not BaB/5 times.

That aside, the targeteer fighter variant lets you take Dex to Damage as a bonus feat. The reason it is not a standard rule is because you are theoretically at more risk being in the front line smashing face, thusly you should deal more damage for your added risk

Blackfang108
2009-12-17, 03:56 PM
I've been wondering that myself. Any 4e guys out there care to enlighten us?

In 4e, weapon properties of X to Damage apply to basic attacks only.

Otherwise, the Power used specifies which stat goes to Damage (usually the same one used to make the attack), or no stat at all [damage dice + static bonuses only] in some cases (Twin Strike, some Wizard at-wills).

madtinker
2009-12-17, 04:02 PM
To translate that to 3.5e, if dexterity is the key skill for the attack, it also effects damage, or strength, but not both, right?

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-17, 04:20 PM
In general, but you can use like con to hit and int for bonus damage in some cases.

Also at high levels you get powers that do 4xwepon damage + str instead of doing full attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5 with strength added to the damage from all of them. You would almost never get dex and str to damage on a power.

KurtKatze
2009-12-17, 04:30 PM
I think there is a homebrew feat on the dnd-wiki calles "Elven Archery" which allows elven characters to add dex instead of str to ranged attacks with a bow. There it states, that it won'T stagg with the dmg bonus of a mighty bow. I would keep it like that with your houserule.

Just dex to dmg no add dmg from "mighty".

I also think this houserule of yours is quite sensible, i mean c'mon if u pick 2 levles of champion of corellon and take weapon finess u get ur ****ing dex to dmg and to hit with a melee weapon...

madtinker
2009-12-17, 04:30 PM
Why that's crazy! (No that it isn't cool, it is just a big departure from what I'm used to).

Aron Times
2009-12-17, 04:31 PM
Some powers let you deal [W] + str + dex on a hit, or let you add dex to your attack roll. Here's an example:

Advance Lunge - Fighter Attack 3
You spring forward to make a quick attack.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action - Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Effect: Before the attack, you can shift 1 square.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade or a spear, you can either shift 2 squares before the attack or shift 1 square before and 1 square after.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. If you have combat advantage against the target, the attack deals extra damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.

Thajocoth
2009-12-17, 04:32 PM
I've been wondering that myself. Any 4e guys out there care to enlighten us?

In all attacks in 4e, you use the same stat for hitting as for damage. A melee basic uses Str and a Ranged Basic uses Dex (with the exception of a Heavy Thrown weapon's Ranged Basic which uses Str).

Powers may require weapons, but the stat you use is based on your class. Ranged Ranger? Dex. Barbarian? Str. Swordmage? Int.

With class At-Wills that use your best stat, why would anyone use basic attacks? For one, Attacks of Opportunity... (Which are now one per combatants turn except for your own, instead of X per round.) Another reason is... Let's say a Fighter is in a party fighting a dragon, who's flying too high for him to reach. Tossing a Javelin isn't likely to hit, but it'll still mark the target (-2 to hit with attacks that don't target the fighter.) Carrying around a bow adds more range to this, and usually ENSURES that the Fighter won't hit, but at least he's still doing his job of marking the target.

Are there cases when somebody uses no stats for damage? Absolutely! Twin Strike, the must-have Ranger At-Will power uses Dex to hit and adds no stats to the damage. It's just the weapon's damage. The benefit is that you get to attack twice (as BAB is gone in 4e, attacking twice in a single action is usually a rare event.)

Are there cases when somebody uses 2 stats for damage? Absolutely! One of the Class Features a Rogue can take is Brutal Scoundrel. This adds Str Mod to Sneak Attack damage. Rogues otherwise use Dex, so this means Damage+Dex+Str+Sneak Dice when they attack with Combat Advantage (which is now the only restriction on Sneak Attack. You can SA from 65 squares away (325 feet) with the right bow if the target is granting CA... Not that any Rogues in 4e carry bows...) [To hit that distance, you need a Distance (Adds 5/10 squares) Greatbow (25/50 squares), Far Shot feat (Adds 5/5 squares) for a total of 35/65 (That's Short Range of 35 and Long Range of 65. There's a -2 penalty to hit at long range.)]

What if somebody wants to use another stat for their basic attacks? The Melee Training feats allow somebody to pick a different stat for their Melee Basic Attack. For Swordmages, there's Intelligent Blademaster, which lets them use Intelligence for Basic Attacks with a Melee Weapon. The difference is that this includes Ranged Basic attacks with a Thrown Weapon.

Shademan
2009-12-17, 04:32 PM
baaah! the heck!? Extra 3 maybe 4 to damage? SURE! why not!? it's not like the archer do enough damage as it is and besi- oh wait! wizard! WIZARD! Put down reality! stop juggling it around, you'll hurt it!
ahem, as I was saying. some extra points o' damage won't do you any harm.
.... unless youre hit by it....cough...

madtinker
2009-12-17, 04:36 PM
baaah! the heck!? Extra 3 maybe 4 to damage? SURE! why not!? it's not like the archer do enough damage as it is and besi- oh wait! wizard! WIZARD! Put down reality! stop juggling it around, you'll hurt it!
ahem, as I was saying. some extra points o' damage won't do you any harm.
.... unless youre hit by it....cough...

True...but this is also a low magic campaign...

Another_Poet
2009-12-17, 04:47 PM
I agree with the 90% of those above who said allow it but make it one or the other (str or dex) not both.

Maybe create a feat to allow both Str and Dex on a thrown weapon, or a composite bow.

ericgrau
2009-12-17, 07:27 PM
This game is almost purely core only, and the characters are still at level one.

Then even thrown weapons should be fine for now, or could get a small boost. Maybe you can beef thrown weapons later when the players start getting magic weapons, or advise throwers to transition to a new style. At such a low level I wouldn't worry about wizards anyway. Even if you did, ranged will be fine compared to melee without the change. Instead of saying "Ha, this other thing is imbalanced, I don't care if I screw up everything else willy nilly depending on which route a PC chooses", a more orderly way of beefing and nerfing would be preferable.

Just make sure you provide plenty of terrain for cover and such. And opportunities for ambushes (both PC and monster) when everyone sees eachother from far away, before assuming creatures are right next to eachother in round 1. If fights start with creatures 15 feet apart and no obstacles, then of course melee is your only option. You may also want to advise players (if they need it) on all the feats and magic items and other such tricks explained above, plus bracers of archery. Core-only archery really doesn't need help.

Mando Knight
2009-12-17, 08:49 PM
You would almost never get dex and str to damage on a power.

Roughly 50-75% of all 4e Rogues would like to disagree with that statement, adding both stats to damage nearly all the time. But that's because they're strikers, so they get to do things like that.

Volkov
2009-12-17, 09:13 PM
I am running a 3.5e play by post game here, and one of my players thought you add dex to damage on a ranged attack. Turns out that's 4e standard. I kinda wondered why it isn't that way in 3.5e, so I decided to house rule it in (the character build relied on that). No big deal, and it makes more sense to me anyway.

My question is, would allowing a thrown weapon do the same thing be unbalancing? Adding dexterity as well as strength sounds like a bit much, but since a lot of thrown weapons are underpowered anyway, would it make a difference?

I am wary of too many house rules, but this one makes sense to me, and I think I could build some quite flavorful villains from it. A cursory search of the forum didn't turn up anything, but if this has been discussed somewhere, just point me there.
Agility can't add any extra force to a blow. That's why.

Thajocoth
2009-12-18, 02:12 AM
Agility can't add any extra force to a blow. That's why.

No, but Dex fuels all the thiefy things, like stealth and lockpicking. It makes sense that a high Dex character, given the skills they'd be good at, would know where weak spots to aim for are, even if Dex doesn't directly translate to that.

Alternate answer: No, but it's a game. Who cares as long as people are having fun? And being marginalized or ineffective in a game because of an RP choice isn't fun.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-18, 02:29 AM
Agility can't add any extra force to a blow. That's why.

No, but improved coordination and accuracy could, say, help you land a shot in a place where the force you put behind it will be more effective, increasing the overall damage.

I don't entirely agree with 4E's method of applying pretty much every stat to damage rolls in one circumstance or another, but Dex is one of the easier ones to excuse. Cha on the other hand, that I've always found very difficult to justify somehow causing damage (for non-casters at least). Then again, I play a Dragon Sorcerer and like to describe him as causing Str-bonus extra damage by flexing his biceps at enemies while he's casting spells at them, so I don't take it entirely seriously to begin with.

Duke of URL
2009-12-18, 09:32 AM
Cha on the other hand, that I've always found very difficult to justify somehow causing damage (for non-casters at least).

If you take the "HP as morale" approach, one could make the argument that CHA to damage basically means that you're using the force of your personality to break your opponent's morale at the same time you deal actual harm to him/her.

Bagelz
2009-12-18, 12:22 PM
you need to be very careful with this and balancing.
in 4e all the character classes are based around 1 main stat and one off stat, being able to use either dex or int (and in some cases or con) for you AC modifier.

if you let your players use dex to hit, damage, AND AC it becomes the stat that trumps all and all other stats can be dropped to 8 with no penalty.

so, while I think that its a good idea/balance to add dex to bows and thrown weapons that do not already str, you need to be careful that you don't unbalance things, or your melee will want str to AC and casters will want their casting stat to ranged touch attacks.