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View Full Version : {3.5e} Wizard/Wu Jen/Archivist Optimization



AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 02:49 PM
Hey. My DM nixed the Maug Barbarian..:(

I thought the new party needed a bookworm

I need a build concept for an 8th level campaign with the following party:

Half-Celestial Favored Soul of Odur
Saint Desert Elf Paladin of Heironious
Orc Barbarian
Human Force Missle Mage
Half-Whisper Gnome Halfling Ninja

here's the rules my DM gave me:

Any 1 la race is treated as 0la
any material except psionics, incarnum, and ToB (save feats)
Hellbred/Dragonborn are templates
must "make sense"

my add-ons
must optimize wizard, wu jen, and/or archivist
must be int synergy
must be RP friendly

here's the scenario:

100 years after the Second Blood War, the planet is in disarray. Gods lay dead while others are weakened. The gods begin to lose connection to the weave due to some "Darkgem Tower," a superweapon that the Devils built to kill Demogorgon and his armies of the Abyss.
The gods now need a group of adventurers to infiltrate the Nine Hells and destroy Darkgem Tower, in the final circle of hell.

Grumman
2009-12-17, 02:59 PM
How about a Dark Creature Human Scout or Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 3?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 03:00 PM
How about a Dark Creature Human Scout or Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 3?

he's told me any "assassin" other than the ninja will be killed

Boci
2009-12-17, 03:09 PM
he's told me any "assassin" other than the ninja will be killed

The ****? Did he give any reason?

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-17, 03:11 PM
he's told me any "assassin" other than the ninja will be killed

:smallmad:


Shadow-walker Lesser outsider: druid-> Planar Shepard.

Grumman
2009-12-17, 03:16 PM
he's told me any "assassin" other than the ninja will be killed
You probably should have put "DM is an idiot" in the rules, then.

I'm guessing a (some race) Beguiler 1 / Wu Jen 4 / Ultimate Magus 3 is also out?

DragoonWraith
2009-12-17, 03:27 PM
I agree. I would not play with any DM who thought it was his prerogative to tell me what kinds of characters I can and cannot play. "It has to fit in the party" or "it has to make sense in the game world" - yes. "You can't do this because I said so" - no. Sounds to me like your DM is a control freak.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-17, 03:52 PM
I agree. I would not play with any DM who thought it was his prerogative to tell me what kinds of characters I can and cannot play. "It has to fit in the party" or "it has to make sense in the game world" - yes. "You can't do this because I said so" - no. Sounds to me like your DM is a control freak.

I agree it could have been handled by the gm better with a "it doesn't make sense in my world" or all assasins are ninjas.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-17, 03:59 PM
he means something like an Orc Wizard or a combo that makes little to no sense racially

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 05:21 PM
He probably just doesn't want you to step on the other player's toes, metaphorically speaking. If you're a better optimizer and play a similar party role, it could make him feel superfluous.

Anyway, a control-oriented wizard would fit very well in the party. I can't think of any LA +1 races with an Int boost off the top of my head, but Grey Elf is always effective. Wizard 7/Loremaster 1 is straightforward, though you'd be stronger if you used something like Incantatrix.

jiriku
2009-12-17, 05:26 PM
I LOL that the same guy with a 45th-level drow demilich thinks your maug barbarian doesn't "make sense".

Wizard, wu-jen, and archivist are all good classes to work from, although wizard is probably best. Wu-jen is less powerful, archivist is more complicated, and wizard gets few class features, so you give up little if you take a prestige class.

Here are several build ideas:

Race:whisper gnome. Play the long-lonst cousin of the other whisper gnome. Or be his identical twin brother, separated at birth.

Class:
straight archivist. Powerful, flexible, good class features.
wizard/incantatrix. Take some metamagic reducers, kick some ass. You can deal so much damage, the barbarian will feel like his e-peen is too small.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 12:47 AM
The reason the Maug Barbarian was nixed is because he's "too complicated," considering he was a Crusader 4/Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 3 with a Dwarven Warpike, a Longsword, and a Quiver of Infinite Javelines. The sword was Valorous.

So, considering I'll be a casting auto-turret, Whisper Gnome seems like an odd call, considering its stealth based. I did consider Chaos Gnome, then take Hellbred (Spirit) for sheer fluff.

Class-wise, I'm bouncing through books for ideas. Any ACFs are also in, so I could hypothetically run a "custom tailored wizard" that runs like a 2010 Dodge Challenger

Ernir
2009-12-18, 01:02 AM
The reason the Maug Barbarian was nixed is because he's "too complicated," considering he was a Crusader 4/Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 3 with a Dwarven Warpike, a Longsword, and a Quiver of Infinite Javelines. The sword was Valorous.

Too complicated? That? Oh dear. :smalleek:

Anyway, you say optimized Wizard. How optimized?

For casual optimization, TLN's Batman Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) and Treantmonk's guide to Being a God (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God) should contain most of the info you need.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 01:04 AM
his statement was that "In order to be an incarnate maug, I'd have to essentially jump through hoops with my god simply to be considered a candidate"

and optimization-wise, like I said, fun, rp-friendly, and powerful

sofawall
2009-12-18, 01:40 AM
Hellbred is not a template. It is a race.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 01:55 AM
Considered the Following:

Tiefling Wizard 6/Incantrix 2
Any ACF's are welcomed

Kylarra
2009-12-18, 01:58 AM
Considered the Following:

Tiefling Wizard 6/Incantrix 2
Any ACF's are welcomed
Why wizard 6?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 02:01 AM
Why wizard 6?

bookworm arcanist.

The idea is to use Wizard spellcasting with Incantrix, unless a better idea exists....

Also considered Walker in the Wastes. I mean FREE Dry Lich template????? Hells Yeah!

Kylarra
2009-12-18, 02:06 AM
bookworm arcanist.

The idea is to use Wizard spellcasting with Incantrix, unless a better idea exists....Well I meant more of, "why the 6th level of wizard?" It gets you nothing and you can enter incantrix at Wiz5.

Grumman
2009-12-18, 03:12 AM
Walker in the Waste is divine only.


Well I meant more of, "why the 6th level of wizard?" It gets you nothing and you can enter incantrix at Wiz5.
It gets you a point of B.A.B. and a point to all of your saves. That's something, I guess.

ex cathedra
2009-12-18, 03:46 AM
Walker in the Waste is divine only.

Technically, I believe that WitW can progress any sort of spellcasting, can't it? The problem is that entry requires the casting of three specific divine spells. I think that there were clever ways around this, but none come to mind.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 07:12 AM
There's a ACF that lets me lose one feat (ie, lv 5) so I can gain 1 cleric domain.

And I do think WitW is just sweet. Good bonuses, nice saves for what it does, free template, semi-easy class requirements, what's not to love?

Ernir
2009-12-18, 08:10 AM
There's a ACF that lets me lose one feat (ie, lv 5) so I can gain 1 cleric domain.

The one in Complete Champion gives you one Cleric domain granted power, not the domain itself.
If there is another one that actually gives you the domain, I'd like to hear about it. :smallconfused:

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-18, 08:26 AM
The one in Complete Champion gives you one Cleric domain granted power, not the domain itself.
If there is another one that actually gives you the domain, I'd like to hear about it. :smallconfused:

If there are feats or PRCs able to do it, are in the Exalted Deeds I guess. But WARNING: it's JUST A GUESS (away from books).

Fishy
2009-12-18, 09:10 AM
Bookworm, you say, with free +1 LA?

Aasimar have Daylight, a 3rd level spell, as a SLA- they qualify for Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion without really trying that hard- and at level 3. It's a class that grants super Bardic Knowledge, advances 10/10 of any kind of spellcasting, and lets you pick from a list of super powers based on Knowledge skills. Wizard 2/PA 2 is pretty much unquestionably better than Wizard 4.

From there, Divine Oracle from Complete Divine -> Loremaster is traditional, but since PA grants Lore, you can qualify for Urban Savant from Cityscape, which gives you fun Archivist-like abilities.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 10:50 AM
Bookworm, you say, with free +1 LA?

Aasimar have Daylight, a 3rd level spell, as a SLA- they qualify for Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion without really trying that hard- and at level 3. It's a class that grants super Bardic Knowledge, advances 10/10 of any kind of spellcasting, and lets you pick from a list of super powers based on Knowledge skills. Wizard 2/PA 2 is pretty much unquestionably better than Wizard 4.

From there, Divine Oracle from Complete Divine -> Loremaster is traditional, but since PA grants Lore, you can qualify for Urban Savant from Cityscape, which gives you fun Archivist-like abilities.

I like this...


"If Knowledge is power, than a god am I..."

the only question is how do I qualify for DO? Im arcane and its a divine caster class.

Kylarra
2009-12-18, 11:05 AM
Divine Oracle only requires 8 ranks Know (religion), skill focus in the same, and 2 divination spells (easy).

suryasm
2009-12-18, 12:59 PM
How do you feel about the ability to cast every spell in the game?

If its a high-level game, I'd always go for Wizard 3/ Archivist 3/ Mystic Theurge X.

The three spellcasting levels you fall behind in hurts you early, but once Theurge kicks in, you get a truly awe-inspiring breadth to your spellcasting, its all based on Int, and you are also the ultimate bookworm. But, eh, I guess its not really what you would call 'optimized'. Unless optimized for you means "having a spell prepared to deal with every possible occasion, no matter how unlikely".

jiriku
2009-12-18, 01:52 PM
Tiefling Wizzy 5/Incantatrix 3 is hotness on a stick, without the stick (that's a new phrase I made up). Take that along with metamagic extend, persist, reach, and chain and you will buff everyone with everything. Or take metamagic empower, split ray, and twin, and arcane thesis in your favorite blasty spells (i like enervation and hail of stone) and crush all who oppose you. The sculpt metamagic feat is entertaining on an incantatrix because you can sculpt other people's spells.

WitW is good. I think Arcane Disciple is the feat in complete divine that lets you cast off a divine list? You might need to take it twice for two of those desert-like domains, but you could get in.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 02:13 PM
Its Lv 8.

and the reason of "without the stick" is because EVERYONE chokes on the stick...

Anyway, the Theurge Broken-ness one with archivist is a lot to do, but could run "seamlessly?"

Plz, keep sending more!

jiriku
2009-12-18, 02:44 PM
Lately, I'm terrible fond of red wizard, from the DMG. It really doesn't come into its own until level 10, so it might be a poor choice for you currently, but I really get a kick out of having a caster level 5-10 levels higher than my actual level all day long.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 02:45 PM
Lately, I'm terrible fond of red wizard, from the DMG. It really doesn't come into its own until level 10, so it might be a poor choice for you currently, but I really get a kick out of having a caster level 5-10 levels higher than my actual level all day long.

Could work later, but as for rite now, no

suryasm
2009-12-18, 11:35 PM
Its Lv 8.

Anyway, the Theurge Broken-ness one with archivist is a lot to do, but could run "seamlessly?"



Your qualifications were:
Wizard/Wu Jen/Archivist class
Int synergy
RP friendly
"bookworm"

Well going the Wiz-Arc-Theurge route, you get progression in two Int-based classes at the same time. At level 8, you can cast any level 3 spell from the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid list. RPing is easy - you are basically Vaarsuvius in his early years, obsessed with finding spell scrolls to scribe into his books. I mean, you're literally going to need a bag of holding to contain all your spell books, once you've followed this class for a while.

And considering the knowledge skills you'll need to play off your Archivist's Dark Knowledge rolls, finding knowledge of any kind should be a high RP priority for your character.

Also, last bit of fun - Archivist gives you armor proficiency. See if you can wrangle a +1 (or better) Twilight Mithril Chain shirt. That's a minimum 5100 GP market price, but it gives you at least +5 to AC with no spellcasting penalties.:smallcool:

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 11:40 PM
so the build goes something like this @ 20th?

Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Paragonastic Apostle 5/Geometer 1/Mystic Theurge 8?

sofawall
2009-12-19, 12:05 AM
so the build goes something like this @ 20th?

Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Paragonastic Apostle 5/Geometer 1/Mystic Theurge 8?

I've not seen Paragnostic Apostle in a while, so I'll assume it's a full casting on two sides PRC.

That lands you with 17/16 casting in the end. Why not just shoot for 20/0?

Or rather, 19/16 or something. Could probably wrangle 19/19 if needed, just maybe not out of Archivist/Wizard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 12:12 AM
I've not seen Paragnostic Apostle in a while, so I'll assume it's a full casting on two sides PRC.

That lands you with 17/16 casting in the end. Why not just shoot for 20/0?

Or rather, 19/16 or something. Could probably wrangle 19/19 if needed, just maybe not out of Archivist/Wizard.19/17 is doable with Wizard/anything, if you can find 16 levels of dual-progression PrCs.

@the OP. What you seem to be missing is that maximum levels in a single caster class are at the core of D&D power. Losing them for levels in another class or even another caster is a net loss, and the key to optimizing it is losing as few levels from your main as possible.

sofawall
2009-12-19, 12:20 AM
19/17 is doable with Wizard/anything, if you can find 16 levels of dual-progression PrCs.

@the OP. What you seem to be missing is that maximum levels in a single caster class are at the core of D&D power. Losing them for levels in another class or even another caster is a net loss, and the key to optimizing it is losing as few levels from your main as possible.


That's actually what I was thinking. I know of Mystic Theurge as a general all-purpose class. What others are there?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 12:34 AM
That's actually what I was thinking. I know of Mystic Theurge as a general all-purpose class. What others are there?Noctumancer if you want Shadowmagic/Arcane, AH for Arcane/Druid, both of which stack with MT. There are probably others, I just am not a fan of dual-classing in the first place, so I'm not as up on it.

sofawall
2009-12-19, 12:42 AM
Noctumancer if you want Shadowmagic/Arcane, AH for Arcane/Druid, both of which stack with MT. There are probably others, I just am not a fan of dual-classing in the first place, so I'm not as up on it.

Well yes, but I was thinking of something for perhaps Wizard/Archivist.

Fishy
2009-12-19, 06:49 AM
I've not seen Paragnostic Apostle in a while, so I'll assume it's a full casting on two sides PRC.

That lands you with 17/16 casting in the end. Why not just shoot for 20/0?

Or rather, 19/16 or something. Could probably wrangle 19/19 if needed, just maybe not out of Archivist/Wizard.

PA advances full casting of only one class, but it doesn't care if that class uses Arcane spells, Divine spells, Invocations, Infusions, or Mysteries.

So, no good for Mystic Theurge purposes, sorry.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-19, 10:16 AM
How does this version sound? it uses 2 of my fave classes!!!

Wizard or Archivist 10/Argent Savant 5/Master of the Unseen Hand 5

(Note: DM's homebrew rules state classes that use "magical" effects gain caster levels. ie: Archmage, Hierophant, MotUS, ect.)

That, or Archivist 6/Paragonistic Apostle 4/Divine Oracle 5/Tainted Scholar 5

and this is all on Tiefling, which gets a +2 to Int

suryasm
2009-12-19, 11:16 AM
For the last 4 levels after maxing out Theurge, consider the Geomancer. It doesn't give you progression in both, but you can progress in either Wiz or Arc, and the drift and leylines ability gives you some minor but concrete benefits. The Sacred Excorcist class is also useful. Or you could simply max Wiz or Arc. Or, heck, pick almost any front-loaded spellcasting PrC out there.

But no, I can't think of any way to get access to both 9th level arcane and divine spells at the same time. Its either 8th level for both, or 7th level for one and 9th for the other.

One thing you can try is pick a PrC which gives you an extra domain. This might give you an arcane spell which you might not learn as archivist, all the way to 9th level spells, and it gives you benefits of the domain.

Or you could, you know, just go full-bore Archivist or Wizard and optimize the **** out of it. Which the last proposal seems to lean towards. Or you can go Illusionist-Shadowmage-Shadow Illusionist or whatever and get a wizard's full spell progression, and cast shadow spells of 110% realism.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-19, 01:13 PM
For the last 4 levels after maxing out Theurge, consider the Geomancer. It doesn't give you progression in both, but you can progress in either Wiz or Arc, and the drift and leylines ability gives you some minor but concrete benefits. The Sacred Excorcist class is also useful. Or you could simply max Wiz or Arc. Or, heck, pick almost any front-loaded spellcasting PrC out there.

But no, I can't think of any way to get access to both 9th level arcane and divine spells at the same time. Its either 8th level for both, or 7th level for one and 9th for the other.

One thing you can try is pick a PrC which gives you an extra domain. This might give you an arcane spell which you might not learn as archivist, all the way to 9th level spells, and it gives you benefits of the domain.

Or you could, you know, just go full-bore Archivist or Wizard and optimize the **** out of it. Which the last proposal seems to lean towards. Or you can go Illusionist-Shadowmage-Shadow Illusionist or whatever and get a wizard's full spell progression, and cast shadow spells of 110% realism.

the last one doesn't fit the "spirit of the builds"

great idea tho. If my Bookworm dies, that'll be my next one

any feat Ideas?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 02:26 PM
For the last 4 levels after maxing out Theurge, consider the Geomancer. It doesn't give you progression in both, but you can progress in either Wiz or Arc, and the drift and leylines ability gives you some minor but concrete benefits. The Sacred Excorcist class is also useful. Or you could simply max Wiz or Arc. Or, heck, pick almost any front-loaded spellcasting PrC out there.Dweomerkeeper is also nice.


But no, I can't think of any way to get access to both 9th level arcane and divine spells at the same time. Its either 8th level for both, or 7th level for one and 9th for the other.Not off Archivist, at least. Druid works, as do the classic Ur-Priest etc combos.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-19, 11:51 PM
So, I want to be a Chaos Gnome (he's simply to piss the Saint Desert Elf Paladin off!!)

How would I go about this? The goal is to be a master of illusions or summoning or something that'd augment the party, seeing the paly and the barbarian are the beatstick duo, the Fave Soul is the figurehead, the ninja is the skillmonkey, leaving me as comic relief.

I thought Beguiler could be fun, but I am not entirely sure...

also, I wanted to use Shadowcraft Mage from RoS, being its a gnom prc

if anyone has any ideas, plz aid! The game is next week 2x a week

Kosjsjach
2009-12-25, 10:01 PM
For a super-bookworm, I'd personally just go straight archivist. Though if you're hung up on dual casting, you could enter Mystic Theurge at 4th level as an Illumian (Races of Destiny) Archivist/Wizard with the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat.

At 8th level (Archivist 2/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 5), you'd cast as a 7th-level Archivist and a 6th-level Wizard, with CL 8 in both. All you need to do then is find a flavorful and appropriate +1 template.

Of course, along with it, I reccommend the Collector of Stories skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel) and the Knowledge Devotion feat. If you're gonna play a know-it-all, go all the way. :smalltongue:

On another note, are you sure it's wise to pick a particular race deliberately to piss off another player/character?