Monk vs Wizard [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 06:05 PM

Anyhow, having gotten bored with the "This is raw" "No, this is raw" going back and forth with Riffington regarding a monk's chances of abushing a wizard and successfully downing him(at level 9), I decided to post it here for all to see.

Essentially his method relies on casting Silence via a scroll, then stalking the wizard via the Hide skill, and managing to grapple the wizard.

I forsee the following problems:

1. There is no mention of how the monk locates the wizard. Presumably he knows the wizard's location and intent, but the reverse is not true, despite the wizard having access to divination.

2. Monks aren't actually all that hot at grappling by default. Ie, MAD and a meh BaB. At this level, he has +6 BaB, and probably a +1 Str bonus. Unarmed Grapple isn't really going to matter in this fight, since the AoO provoked is pretty much irrelevant. The wizard has a +4 Str bonus, and while the wizard likely has terribly str, they can oppose with dex, which is not generally bad at all. Even if it comes down to a grapple check, it's nearly a 50/50 shot.

3. Detection. If the monk gets detected early, the whole plan dies a horrible death. The monk DOES have a nice speed bonus, but needs to end up able to both charge and hide. This is situational at best. Wizards have a number of ways of detecting monks with spells up. For example, permanencied detect magic is available at level 9. It's cheap, and there's little reason not to get it. With sonorous hum, it's effectively active forever. So, if the monk and cone overlap prematurely, he's screwed.

4. The monks plan relies on the silence being already active, and non-detectable. A 20ft sphere of silence is...obvious in any noisy environment. This basically precludes an ambush at the local market or similar. Presumably, a listen check at the DC of the normal background noise level for the area would notice it. If there are confused people in the area, trying to figure out why they are suddenly silent, or startled animals fleeing, presumably that'd be a very easy spot check.

4. The monks plan relies on the wizard not getting a save vs the silence due to interpretation of the spell text. After all, if he gets a save, it's a mere DC 13 will save, which is unlikely to be failed. A dimension door later, the wizard is as far away as he needs to be. The spell text does not specify that it will affect anyone without a save. It does specify that Unattended objects and points in space do not, and that "An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any." It does not specify that they must be specifically targetted to do so.

5. Casters cannot be assumed to be alone, unbuffed, and unprepared for attack.

So, does this plan really have any hope of success, or is it relying on a terminally stupid caster?

Temotei

2009-12-17, 06:11 PM

Riffington

2009-12-17, 06:13 PM

To be clear: there are a lot of IFs going on. My claim is not that a monk is stronger than a wizard. It's that *if* a monk has silence on, and sneaks up on a 9th level wizard, and grapples him, and the wizard doesn't have a handy bodyguard, the Monk is then likely to be able to kill the wizard. And furthermore that *if* a monk knows a wizard is in town shopping or gardening and the wizard doesn't know about the monk (or about his desire to kill him) that the difficulty of getting into that position is not insanely hard.

Problem 1 fully granted.
Problem 2 is confusing to me. Why does a wizard have +4 Str while a Monk has +1?
Problem 3 I think is incorrect. A permancied Detect Magic does not mean you automatically detect all magic. Just that the times you bother to concentrate you may detect magic.
Problem 4(a) : I'm not so convinced that Silence is as easy to detect from a distance as Tyndmyr claims.
Problem 4(b): I'm certain that if a monk has Silence on himself, a wizard does not get a save against the effect.
Problem 5: Alone likely not. But there are few buffs that a wizard really has at 9th level that stop all grapples when they're out shopping or gardening.

SurlySeraph

2009-12-17, 06:14 PM

Surgo

2009-12-17, 06:16 PM

Wizards are better at grappling than Monks are anyway, so the Monk can feel really bad about himself after being grappled to death by the Wizard, with or without Silence.

Riffington

2009-12-17, 06:16 PM

What precautions do you typically have as a 9th level wizard against someone sneaking up on you when you are out and about?
That is probably the important question.

jseah

2009-12-17, 06:20 PM

4. I disagree with your interpretation that someone could save vs Silence by just being in the area.

If this was not what you meant, ignore me.

The saving throw line states: Will negates; see text or none (object)

The text is clear (I think) that the target of the Silence spell gets a save. (20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space)

So if you targeted someone with Silence, attempting to peg the spell on him, he gets a will save to negate.

Your contention is that simply being in the area allows a save.

From SRD:

Negates
The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Subject is clearly referring to the target of your spell. Which is the creature, object or point in space you are targetting.

I can see how you might argue the case. Fireball only mentions a 20ft spread in its area line and allows a Reflex Half for all creatures inside.
However, Fireball does not have an obvious target mentioned, like the "creature, object, or point in space" phrase that Silence has.

*************************************************

Despite this, my money still on the wizard.

To answer the question Riffington posts above,

What precautions do you typically have as a 9th level wizard against someone sneaking up on you when you are out and about?
A Contact Other Plane casted this morning asking if I will meet any encounters today, when and how many those encounters are.

This is standard practice for any prepared mage as it screws over this sort of ambush strategy that is the weakness of a mage.

Bibliomancer

2009-12-17, 06:21 PM

Pluto

2009-12-17, 06:23 PM

I want no part in this, but your argument seems flawed.

#2. MAD is a myth. Or, more precisely, MAD is just AD&D's minimum ability requirements in disguise. No Monks have +1 Str because no one who is forced to put a 12 in Strength will choose to play a Monk.

#4.2. I don't think you can debate this. There's no save unless the spell is cast with a creature as a target.

#5. The same is true of the Monk... so, yeah.

I have other objections, but most involve what seems like a ridiculous situation for comparison.

Kylarra

2009-12-17, 06:26 PM

What precautions do you typically have as a 9th level wizard against someone sneaking up on you when you are out and about?
That is probably the important question.
Well really the important question is, what are we trying to prove here?

I mean you are fairly specific with

To be clear: there are a lot of IFs going on. My claim is not that a monk is stronger than a wizard. It's that *if* a monk has silence on, and sneaks up on a 9th level wizard, and grapples him, and the wizard doesn't have a handy bodyguard, the Monk is then likely to be able to kill the wizard. And furthermore that *if* a monk knows a wizard is in town shopping or gardening and the wizard doesn't know about the monk (or about his desire to kill him) that the difficulty of getting into that position is not insanely hard.
But all that is just giving 6 circumstantial advantages to say that in this specific scenario a monk might have a chance to kill a wizard.

So 6 caveats for the monk in order to prove... what?

Sir Giacomo

2009-12-17, 06:27 PM

Stilled Dimension Door (effective spell level five) would result in an automatic victory for the wizard. And this is a fairly reasonable spell to have prepared for a day on the town, since it would buy you time to get away and return the next day with an arsenal of die spells.

How exactly would a wizard use a stilled dimension door when he is surprised? Do not forget that a monk has quite a high speed at that level so a surprise round is possible.

Overall, to answer the OP by Tyndmyr and Riffington's idea: yes, the monk has a very good chance to succeed at this tactics.
At 9th level, wizards are still very vulnerable against surprise attacks. What could happen, though, is that the wizard flies all the time with overland flight, thus necessitating either to wait for a good opportunity or get flying for that as well (boots of flying come to mind).

- Giacomo

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 06:28 PM

The monk has little chance. Also, you said the wizard has a +4 Strength bonus, and then you said they have a low Strength. But if the monk were able to get a flurry of blows that actually hit the wizard, I bet it would badly damage him/her...enough so that another attack could take them down. Divination gets in the way though. And so does abjuration, transmutation, allies, illusion...yeah. :smalleek:

Apologies, I meant BaB. You'd have Monk BaB(6) + Monk Str vs Wiz BaB(4) + Wiz Dex(most likely higher than str).

2. The monk could be higher, but only by a margin of 1-2. Dexterous casters, like grey elves, could easily be equal or higher. Now, you can boost the monk's size category to help...but doing so screws over the hiding aspect.

Problem 3 is due to Sonorous Hum, a 2nd level spell that concentrates for you(SpC). Duration: Length of spell + 1 round. In other words, for permanencied detect magic, infinite. See also, any other spell with duration: Concentration. This is merely one way to keep buffs active essentially forever, and a very easy one to pull off. It's also pretty clearly RAI as well as RAW, going by the description, and easily available at level 9 without early qualification tricks or requiring other casters.

4. There's a significant chance via simply spot and listen. Since the silence has a 20ft radius, you don't even get all of your distance modifier. Plus, there's the magical detection. Possible familiar as well.

5. Anything that makes him aware of you in advance is going to result in messy death. Even buffs like mage armor increase odds of failure, since if your melee attack misses, you go down hard. Dex buffs increase opposed grapple checks. Anything that allows him to communicate with others(telepathic bond, for instance) allows him to call on any allies he may have in the area. Blink, Gaseous Form, Mirror Image all result in auto-lose for you. Ditto Magic Circle against (alignment).

Emmerask

2009-12-17, 06:31 PM

If the monk could get the jump on the wizard stunning fist him to death would be his best option I guess, a dc 18 or 19 fort save isn´t that easy for a wizard ^^

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 06:31 PM

How exactly would a wizard use a stilled dimension door when he is surprised?

He doesn't need to still it. It has no somatic components.

If you have a silenced copy of it, you automatically win, as there is no possibility for the monk to keep you anywhere, and the range vastly exceeds the monks speed.

So, you can cast it when grappled, and life is good. The con check is easy enough to pass.

jseah

2009-12-17, 06:31 PM

I still think a point of contention is that no situation will ever arise in which a wizard played intelligently will ever be surprised by the monk.

Given a single non-abusive use of Contact Other Plane asking for number and time of encounters in that day wrecks the plan, and has a humongous payoff for the wizard. To the extent I cannot imagine a prepared wizard NOT using it.

Secondly, if the wizard has pre-casted some Heart of X spells (I can't recall the name), he can expend them as a swift action to get freedom of movement for one round then simply walk away taking the AoO and DD the heck out of there.

Surgo

2009-12-17, 06:33 PM

Why should the Wizard need to escape a grapple with a Monk? You can get a grapple modifier with the Wizard that the Monk will never beat, and then polymorph yourself into a Remorhaz and apply all that nonsense to even more nonsense.

Arakune

2009-12-17, 06:33 PM

How exactly would a wizard use a stilled dimension door when he is surprised? Do not forget that a monk has quite a high speed at that level so a surprise round is possible.

Overall, to answer the OP by Tyndmyr and Riffington's idea: yes, the monk has a very good chance to succeed at this tactics.
At 9th level, wizards are still very vulnerable against surprise attacks. What could happen, though, is that the wizard flies all the time with overland flight, thus necessitating either to wait for a good opportunity or get flying for that as well (boots of flying come to mind).

- Giacomo

A stilled dimension door is for when the wizard is actually caught at the grapple. No point in stilling something if you can move freely.

Of course, there is a chance that in the first damage iteration of the grapple the monk can offshot the wizard, but it's unlikely. From the SRD:

Grappling or pinned. (You can cast only spells without somatic components for which you have any required material component in hand.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)

Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)

Temet Nosce

2009-12-17, 06:35 PM

Riffington

2009-12-17, 06:36 PM

Well really the important question is, what are we trying to prove here?

I mean you are fairly specific with

But all that is just giving 6 circumstantial advantages to say that in this specific scenario a monk might have a chance to kill a wizard.

So 6 caveats for the monk in order to prove... what?

That anyone - even a 9th level wizard (in a world where 9th is the highest level or close to it)- can be assassinated if someone they are unaware of decides to assassinate them.

minor points: Contact other plane is kind of a weird choice to use every day, since the entity lies so frequently.
Improved Grapple gives +4 to grapple checks.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 06:36 PM

If the monk could get the jump on the wizard stunning fist him to death would be his best option I guess, a dc 18 or 19 fort save isn´t that easy for a wizard ^^

Also tough. You only get to 14 based on CL. Getting to DC 18/19 requires you to have 18 or 20 wis respectively.

You *could* get that, sure, but you'd be sacrificing in other areas. And you already need 13 dex as a prereq. In short, your strength and con would likely be weak, and it's going to take you a long time to punch the wizard to death. Better hope he keeps failing.

The wizard has a minimum +3 from his class. Probably a couple more due to say, a 14 con. Slight chance of either a familiar or feat boost for an additional +2. Enhancement bonus to con is likely. He's going to pass this save at least a third of the time.

Harperfan7

2009-12-17, 06:37 PM

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 06:39 PM

Riffington, there is no winning this on the internet. Every theoretical wizard here is going to have every specific spell or item he needs (and prepared to boot).

Keep what you know to yourself. It only matters when you actually play D&D with friends anyways.

Defending against this doesn't require any specific spell or item, though. In fact, most of the outlined defences are core, and reasonably standard.

jiriku

2009-12-17, 06:40 PM

Two Monk threads in one day...is it Sunday already?

Even with surprise, the monk has no chance unless he can stun-lock the wizard (and I am skeptical of this). There are at least three items in the Magic Item Compendium allowing you to teleport with only a mental activation. Any character can use these items, even while pinned.

(To defend against the charge of Schrodinger's Wizard, every caster I've ever played since I got the MiC has had one or more of these precisely because my grapple checks suck.)

Bamf out of the grapple and then cast something appropriately defensive like quickened true strike + sudden maximized shivering touch (one of my favorite defensive spell combos), and the fight is done. Alternately, a more cowardly wizard can escape the grapple, then use spells like teleport or gaseous form and evade to fight another day.

Edit: And I'm quite willing to concede that the monk could get the drop on the wizard. Although I play wizards often, I never use divination magic to try to anticipate when encounters will occur, and wizard spot checks typically suck.

Xenogears

2009-12-17, 06:42 PM

A Contact Other Plane casted this morning asking if I will meet any encounters today, when and how many those encounters are.

This is standard practice for any prepared mage as it screws over this sort of ambush strategy that is the weakness of a mage.

See but either you contact a dieties plane where it says that the gods will alter their answers to suit their personalities/desires or you suffer a potential 50% chance of getting no useful answer. Plus even if you pick a greater diety you have an almost 10% chance of the diety lying to you. So each question you ask has a 10% chance of failure and questions only result in one word answers so in order to predict how many encounters and where and all that stuff you listed would take a number of questions each with a chance of them lying to you.

I think by the end of it you are gonna get lied to atleast once so lets hope it doesnt screw you over too badly.

Yukitsu

2009-12-17, 06:43 PM

At level 9, my preperations for avoiding an ambush in the market is to get a called hound archon to do it for me. And if someone ganks him on the way to the store for my sammich money, I tactical nuke his house while he and his are asleep in it.

That is the proper way in which a level 9 wizard avoids an ambush on the way to market.

jseah

2009-12-17, 06:44 PM

minor points: Contact other plane is kind of a weird choice to use every day, since the entity lies so frequently.
Contact Other Plane is very useful. Take 10 on the check and ask somewhere you can safely ask.

You have CL/2 number of questions. This is 4 at level 9 (5 if you have a CL booster of 1)

Ask an intermediate diety. (since you likely have around a +5 int and so cannot safely ask a greater diety)

Each question has a chance of not receiving a useful answer of 100-73 = 27%

Within 4 questions, you are overwhelming likely to get at least one correct.

If you ask whether encounters are going to happen, their number and their time, you have one more question spare to ask if something contradicts the others.
This last question you use to confirm the others by asking which of those were answered correctly.

Kylarra

2009-12-17, 06:48 PM

That anyone - even a 9th level wizard (in a world where 9th is the highest level or close to it)- can be assassinated if someone they are unaware of decides to assassinate them.I think you've moved beyond that a tad if we're assuming hypothetical mover and shaker of the world has no precautions in place to prevent assassinations.

Now that you've established that 9th level is the highest-ish that a character would be, they probably have either significant backing of sorts (ruler etc) or are experienced in hiding their identity, either provides a significant boost to the unlikelihood of the caveats you've placed on the statement from all being simultaneously held true.

So eh, we're back to proving ... not much.

Riffington

2009-12-17, 06:53 PM

So eh, we're back to proving ... not much.

True. Feel free to delete this thread.

Temet Nosce

2009-12-17, 06:53 PM

That anyone - even a 9th level wizard (in a world where 9th is the highest level or close to it)- can be assassinated if someone they are unaware of decides to assassinate them.

Should've picked a competent character to do it then. I don't necessarily disagree with that premise, presuming we stick to CO and not TO but it still assumes that the person attempting to assassinate them is capable and using a reasonable tactic.

Emmerask

2009-12-17, 06:56 PM

This last question you use to confirm the others by asking which of those were answered correctly.

only one word answers allowed :smallwink:
if you are lucky the answer will be "all" but maybe it will only be "some" or "two"

Xenogears

2009-12-17, 06:56 PM

Contact Other Plane is very useful. Take 10 on the check and ask somewhere you can safely ask.

You have CL/2 number of questions. This is 4 at level 9 (5 if you have a CL booster of 1)

Ask an intermediate diety. (since you likely have around a +5 int and so cannot safely ask a greater diety)

Each question has a chance of not receiving a useful answer of 100-73 = 27%

Within 4 questions, you are overwhelming likely to get at least one correct.

If you ask whether encounters are going to happen, their number and their time, you have one more question spare to ask if something contradicts the others.
This last question you use to confirm the others by asking which of those were answered correctly.

They are only one word answers though.
How in one word do you answer the question "When am i going to have an encounter today?" if there is more than one time? well now you need more answers so no more check question....
Asking the numbers for each encounter means a new question each encounter. So lets see:

4 encounters in the day gives you a total of nine questions just to get the info you listed that means 3 castings and an average of 2 lies.

3 encounters gives you a total of 7 questions for two castings and still an average of two lies.

2 encounters gives you 5 questions so tats two castings and one lie.

1 encounter is 3 questions and 1 lie.

So 1 or 2 encounters and you might be okay. More than that and you have to use lots of spells and have a good chance of getting lied to.

Plus even if they don't lie they might "colour" the truth. It says that the answers are flavoured by the personalities so hopefully you find a diety of the right rank that likes you and doesn't want to mislead you.

All in all the spell seems horribly unreliable.

jseah

2009-12-17, 07:02 PM

Hmm... You make a good point.

Although getting lied to a two times out of 10 isn't that bad. The number of correct answers will net you enough advantage.

The thing I had miscalculated was the number of questions needed because I assumed the wizard was using an efficient algorithm.

Never mind then, efficient algorithms meant to cheat the 1 word answer limit and contain error checking at the same time might be considered TO.

So, Contact Other Plane will only win this for the wizard 73% of the time (ie. the monk gets screwed because the spell answered correctly 73% of the time)

That's better than nothing, I'm going ahead and using the spell. I stand corrected that without some high-CO tricks, the spell isn't a foolproof defense.

Arakune

2009-12-17, 07:04 PM

They are only one word answers though.
How in one word do you answer the question "When am i going to have an encounter today?" if there is more than one time? well now you need more answers so no more check question....
Asking the numbers for each encounter means a new question each encounter. So lets see:

4 encounters in the day gives you a total of nine questions just to get the info you listed that means 3 castings and an average of 2 lies.

3 encounters gives you a total of 7 questions for two castings and still an average of two lies.

2 encounters gives you 5 questions so tats two castings and one lie.

1 encounter is 3 questions and 1 lie.

So 1 or 2 encounters and you might be okay. More than that and you have to use lots of spells and have a good chance of getting lied to.

Plus even if they don't lie they might "colour" the truth. It says that the answers are flavoured by the personalities so hopefully you find a diety of the right rank that likes you and doesn't want to mislead you.

All in all the spell seems horribly unreliable.

Contact other planes can give you more information depending on the question asked.

There is however, a nice way to try to get the answers right:

Ask something
Ask if first question was answered truthfuly
Ask if second question was answered truthfuly
...
Ask if question n-1 was answered truthfuly.

Someone already did the math about that. It get's more and more accurate with more questions.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 07:07 PM

Should've picked a competent character to do it then. I don't necessarily disagree with that premise, presuming we stick to CO and not TO but it still assumes that the person attempting to assassinate them is capable and using a reasonable tactic.

I suspect the monk in question would be better off UMDing a wand or scroll(probably scroll, better synergy bonuses) as a means of assassination. Still, hardly flawless, but if you can avoid counterspelling, it's mostly single point of failure...a scroll of your favorite orb spell would likely be more dangerous than any of the monk abilities.

jseah

2009-12-17, 07:07 PM

Excuse me, someone else (I'm sorry but I don't remember your username) and I did the math for that. It works out to be equal to asking multiple questions about the same topic without running into that problem.

There are 2 problems with using that technique.
It sucks a lot of questions and so is only viable at high level.

It also probably counts as borderline-TO. Since it's a small step from that to asking algorithm questions which give multiple answers in one.

AshDesert

2009-12-17, 07:11 PM

The monk has little chance. Also, you said the wizard has a +4 Strength bonus, and then you said they have a low Strength. But if the monk were able to get a flurry of blows that actually hit the wizard, I bet it would badly damage him/her...enough so that another attack could take them down. Divination gets in the way though. And so does abjuration, transmutation, allies, illusion...yeah. :smalleek:

I believe she meant that he would have Bull's Strength up, for a +4 bonus to Strength. It is a bit confusing what she meant though.

Anyway, the wording of Silence is a bit foggy as to whether or not a person inside a point of space gets a Will Save, but I assume that it means a Will Save is allowed against a person who's targeted by it, but not anyone in a point of space. Anyway, it's kind of a no win situation for the monk. First of all, the Monk's UMD is gonna be pretty pitiful. Being generous, we'll give the monk a 14 Charisma to start out with. Add to that his +4 CC skill ranks in UMD, and then (no matter how ridiculous it is) a +2 tool in UMD. That gives him a +8 UMD modifier. The minimum CL of a Scroll of Silence is 3 (a 3rd level Cleric). That requires that the Monk roll a 15 or higher to get the 23 that he needs to cast Silence from a Scroll. Even if you want to cast off a Wand, then he needs to roll a 12. There are 2 situations that I foresee happening:

A) Monk manages to cast Silence on an area that the Wizard's in. Assuming that the Wizard didn't use enough Divination to know that this was his plan, then there likely won't be a Contigencied Dimension Door waiting in the wings for when the Silence hits. Monk gets 60 feet per round at this point, so he's probably going to close with the Wizard. If we're being generous, the Monk has a Strength of 14 and the Wizard has a Dexterity of 14. The Monk has a slight edge in BAB, so he'll probably win grapple. This actually has a chance of the Monk winning, assuming there is no big strong friend with the Wizard to beat up the Monk.

B) Monk manages to UMD the Silence, targeting the Wizard. The Silence, with a DC of 12 (if I'm remembering my rules on DCs on spell triggers), probably isn't going to stick, since the Wizard probably has a Will Save of 6 (assuming a 10 Wisdom, pretty average). That means a Wizard only has to roll a 6 to shrug it off. If it sticks, Monk'll charge up and grapple, so another probable win for the Monk.

I think that, without Divination, the Monk has a little bit less than a 50% chance to win in the fight. Of course, this really depends on the Monk actually getting the UMD, so it really can go wrong just there. With Divination, well, the Monk is pretty much boned.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-12-17, 07:13 PM

Freedom of Movement ring + Mirror Image = monk loose.

Hell... Flight = Monk Loose, simply because he has no way of reaching the wizard.

I've never seen a mid-level Wizard leave his Rope Trick without the above buffs up. Thus surprise is irrelevant, the monk can't do anything to affect the Wizard in the surprise round, even assuming the Monk somehow knows exactly where the wizard is and can ambush him successfully.

Silent Spell is just a +1 SL. Silence is not a significant threat. Silent Dispel Magic = no more silence.

nekomata2

2009-12-17, 07:14 PM

Heart of Water, no grapple, game over.

What wizard doesn't take and cast all four heart spells? Not even a theoretical thing, its just likely. Mine do. My sorcerers do it too.

madtinker

2009-12-17, 07:18 PM

Wizards are better at grappling than Monks are anyway, so the Monk can feel really bad about himself after being grappled to death by the Wizard, with or without Silence.

Ooh, ooh, tell me how!

jseah

2009-12-17, 07:20 PM

IIRC, one's enough to grant FoM. And they last hours / level. And they're what... 3rd level spells?

Extend one through a rod, have Mage Armour up (also through the same rod) and find some other hour/level buff you want to keep running (or leave a charge on the rod in case your buffs get dispelled).

You cannot have an FoM ring. It costs too much at level 9. Blinking is a tradeoff since it hurts the caster as well.

Milskidasith

2009-12-17, 07:21 PM

Heart of Water. 9 rounds of freedom of movement from a third level spell that lasts hours/level until expended.

Yep, the wizard has no way of avoiding grapples.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-12-17, 07:25 PM

Heart of Water. 9 rounds of freedom of movement from a third level spell that lasts hours/level until expended.

Yep, the wizard has no way of avoiding grapples.

Phantom Steed. At CL 12 (not hard, Bead of Karma should be doable by then), it's all day long Flight. Now how is the monk supposed to eaven *reach* him?

Also, Mirror Image = 12.5% chance that the monk grapples the right one... do ya feel lucky, punk?

AshDesert

2009-12-17, 07:36 PM

Phantom Steed. At CL 12 (not hard, Bead of Karma should be doable by then), it's all day long Flight. Now how is the monk supposed to eaven *reach* him?

Also, Mirror Image = 12.5% chance that the monk grapples the right one... do ya feel lucky, punk?

Erm, I don't think the city guards would quite like you running around on a demon horse. Also, it's bad for business for the gardeners and such for a hell-horse to be waiting outside.

Harperfan7

2009-12-17, 07:40 PM

Arakune

2009-12-17, 07:40 PM

Erm, I don't think the city guards would quite like you running around on a demon horse. Also, it's bad for business for the gardeners and such for a hell-horse to be waiting outside.

Phanton steed is not a demon horse.

A phantom steed has a black head and body, gray mane and tail, and smoke-colored, insubstantial hooves that make no sound. It has what seems to be a saddle, bit, and bridle. It does not fight, but animals shun it and refuse to attack it.

Except of the hooves and animal stuff, doesn't look like an obvious demonic looking horse. It's note even a real horse!

And if the wizard needs to personaly go to the market, it's hardly a market in the dirt poor ignorant village. It will be at a moderate or even big city.

madtinker

2009-12-17, 07:44 PM

And if the wizard needs to personally go to the market, it's hardly a market in the dirt poor ignorant village. It will be at a moderate or even big city.

What if he is recluse who just likes fresh vegetables?

olentu

2009-12-17, 08:01 PM

What if he is recluse who just likes fresh vegetables?

Use Planar Binding, Lesser for demon farmers to grow some vegetables.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 08:03 PM

I believe she meant that he would have Bull's Strength up, for a +4 bonus to Strength. It is a bit confusing what she meant though.

Was comparing BaB. A monk that optimizes to be great at grappling would have about a +6 advantage over the wizard. This is pretty much as ideal as the situation gets. If the monk doesn't have a grapple build, and has mediocre strength(he should still get 12-14 standard), they'll be about even.

So, since the monk still has a chance to miss the initial melee attack, this is a 50/50 shot under ideal circumstances.

Anyway, the wording of Silence is a bit foggy as to whether or not a person inside a point of space gets a Will Save, but I assume that it means a Will Save is allowed against a person who's targeted by it, but not anyone in a point of space. Anyway, it's kind of a no win situation for the monk. First of all, the Monk's UMD is gonna be pretty pitiful. Being generous, we'll give the monk a 14 Charisma to start out with. Add to that his +4 CC skill ranks in UMD, and then (no matter how ridiculous it is) a +2 tool in UMD. That gives him a +8 UMD modifier. The minimum CL of a Scroll of Silence is 3 (a 3rd level Cleric). That requires that the Monk roll a 15 or higher to get the 23 that he needs to cast Silence from a Scroll. Even if you want to cast off a Wand, then he needs to roll a 12. There are 2 situations that I foresee happening:

He could technically get a +6 in UMD through ranks. This still requires a roll of a 13 on a scroll though. So, either he's buying a few scrolls, or shelling out for a wand.

I guess he *could* get a synergy bonus(for scrolls only) via getting five ranks in decipher script or something. Cross class, though, so that's another 10 wasted SP for a +2, and this strategy already presumes good hide. This means the monk has to have at least 12 int already. So...this probably isn't actually viable unless a very generous point buy is in play.

A) Monk manages to cast Silence on an area that the Wizard's in. Assuming that the Wizard didn't use enough Divination to know that this was his plan, then there likely won't be a Contigencied Dimension Door waiting in the wings for when the Silence hits.

Contingency is level 6, and the wiz only has level 5 at this point. So this isn't an issue yet...but as levels get higher, the situation does get increasingly unlikely to work.

Monk gets 60 feet per round at this point, so he's probably going to close with the Wizard. If we're being generous, the Monk has a Strength of 14 and the Wizard has a Dexterity of 14. The Monk has a slight edge in BAB, so he'll probably win grapple. This actually has a chance of the Monk winning, assuming there is no big strong friend with the Wizard to beat up the Monk.

Wizard with 14 dex and grtr mage armor up would have an AC of 18. Honestly, probably a lot more at level 9, but hey, we'll stick with this. The monk will have, on the charge, a total bonus of +10. So, 35% chance of failure to connect.

If str and dex are equal, and the monk has improved grapple, which is about as good as can be hoped for by the monk, then the monk has a +6 advantage on the grapple. Monk wins ties. My math is a wee bit poor on calculating odds of opposed rolls, so I don't want to calculate exact details, but I believe the monk has approximately a 75% chance at winning this....presuming he connects.

This comes out to 48.75% chance in total of a successful grapple for the monk. The damage can't possibly be enough to one shot the wizard, so the wizard will have a chance to escape on his turn as well.

All in all, even if it gets to this point, where the monk is at his best, it's still about even odds.

If the wizard has silent spells or dimension doors, escape is only a concentration check away. Or has any defensive buffs up other than a stock AC boost.

B) Monk manages to UMD the Silence, targeting the Wizard. The Silence, with a DC of 12 (if I'm remembering my rules on DCs on spell triggers), probably isn't going to stick, since the Wizard probably has a Will Save of 6 (assuming a 10 Wisdom, pretty average). That means a Wizard only has to roll a 6 to shrug it off. If it sticks, Monk'll charge up and grapple, so another probable win for the Monk.

DC 13, but a level 9 wizard will have +7 will from class alone. So yeah, a 6 will save, at a minimum. In an optimal situation for the monk, there is only a 25% chance of failure for the wizard. It still doesn't stop dimension door/silent spells, and if the wizard has one of the will boosting familiars, has taken a prestige class, or has picked up iron will, one of the most common feat prereqs for caster prestige classes, he'll be even more likely to pass.

This isn't likely to be even tried, since it's so failure prone. Since by raw, you are aware of having passed a save, this attack method also blows your surprise.

I think that, without Divination, the Monk has a little bit less than a 50% chance to win in the fight. Of course, this really depends on the Monk actually getting the UMD, so it really can go wrong just there. With Divination, well, the Monk is pretty much boned.

Any buff with miss chances also entirely screws the monk. Blink, for example, grants a 50% miss chance(which is in addition to all the other failure chances the monk faces), and arguably allows you to just walk away, given your ability to move through solid objects. It's a core level 3 spell.

Any number of buffs, including mundane enhancement bonus buffs could also swing the odds against the monk. It's highly unlikely that a decently leveled caster is going to be walking around without taking precautions at all.

Riffington

2009-12-17, 08:17 PM

Contact other planes can give you more information depending on the question asked.

There is however, a nice way to try to get the answers right:

Ask something
Ask if first question was answered truthfuly
Ask if second question was answered truthfuly
...
Ask if question n-1 was answered truthfuly.

Someone already did the math about that. It get's more and more accurate with more questions.

That's an interesting RAW question. RAP, if you ask a deity if he just lied to you, you get something worse than mislead.

Although getting lied to a two times out of 10 isn't that bad. The number of correct answers will net you enough advantage.
Not quite true, do the Bayesian math. Suppose you are ambushed once a year (1:356). That means that in a year you get told you'll be ambushed 36 times. So if you are told you are to be ambushed, that only means you have a 3% chance of it being true.

Gorbash

2009-12-17, 08:34 PM

Heart of Water, no grapple, game over.

What wizard doesn't take and cast all four heart spells? Not even a theoretical thing, its just likely. Mine do. My sorcerers do it too.

Ones that simply cast Elemental Body. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain

2009-12-17, 08:34 PM

jseah

2009-12-17, 08:38 PM

Not quite true, do the Bayesian math. Suppose you are ambushed once a year (1:356). That means that in a year you get told you'll be ambushed 36 times. So if you are told you are to be ambushed, that only means you have a 3% chance of it being true.
Good point. So I find out that this time it was a false alarm. Well, that cost me three spell slots (COP, a counter and one escape).

Worth it for security.

That said, there's no point NOT preparing a counter in that case. So perhaps the use of COP is moot if you're always prepared to escape ambushes. COP will only help in determining the nature of the ambush you're facing. (not that that is discountable. Knowing the style of attack help loads in preparing for it)

madtinker

2009-12-17, 08:42 PM

...so what you're saying is essentially that the DM can kill a wizard using DM Fiat.

I thought the point of being a DM was being able to kill anyone at any time.

aje8

2009-12-17, 08:46 PM

If the monk sneaks up to the Wizard, with silence on, and is a grappling based build. he then will be annoyed to find the Wizard expends his extended Heart of Water. I have never had a Wizard who DOESN'T have heart of water extended on at levels 5 and above. All hearts might be going a bit far....... but just Heart of Water is a staple for optimized Wizards IMO.

KellKheraptis

2009-12-17, 09:02 PM

Two words : Benign Transposition. I wink out and replace me with something or someone nearby (or an animal, or my tiny ass familiar that'll laugh at your feeble attempt to grapple me) and then proceed to castigate the offending floor licking white belt for ever doubting the omnipotence of the Batman.

Riffington

2009-12-17, 09:09 PM

...so what you're saying is essentially that the DM can kill a wizard using DM Fiat.
No.

Also: never heard of heart of water til now - clearly a super strong spell.

jseah

2009-12-17, 09:14 PM

Heart of Water is from Complete Mage.

It's a level 3 spell that lasts hours per level, grants water breathing. Can be expended for a 1 round per level Freedom of Movement. (after which the spell ends)

Kylarra

2009-12-17, 09:15 PM

Also: never heard of heart of water til now - clearly a super strong spell.Eh... not really. It's a great defensive spell to have, but super strong? Hardly. It's an hrs/lvl spell that grants water breathing and swimming, but the relevant part here allows you to use FoM as a swift action for rounds per level (and then dispelling the whole thing).

edit lol ninja

KellKheraptis

2009-12-17, 09:15 PM

Heart of Water is from Complete Mage.

It's a level 3 spell that lasts 24 hours, grants water breathing. Can be expended for a 1 round per level Freedom of Movement. (after which the spell ends)

Fixed for ya :) And for the record, it's entirely feasible by this level to have all 4 hearts going + Mage armor as a standing all day buff.

jseah

2009-12-17, 09:23 PM

aje8

2009-12-17, 09:24 PM

Huh? I thought it lasted hrs/level and you extended it to last basically all day.

Surgo

2009-12-17, 09:24 PM

Ooh, ooh, tell me how!
First post of this thread (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119) (warning: different message board).

Kylarra

2009-12-17, 09:26 PM

Arguably, the spell IS strong.

Since FoM is a level 4 spell normally. Although FoM is 10min/level not 1rnd/level, triggerable any time, any where makes up for it.

Heart of Water should really be a level 4 spell.It's strong, but not "super strong". It's a great reactionary spell, rather than "nearly always useful". It's main strength comes from being able to be always up and thus not taking any buff rounds.

KellKheraptis

2009-12-17, 09:33 PM

Huh? I thought it lasted hrs/level and you extended it to last basically all day.

Bah, you're right, it is 1 hr/level. I'm so used to it lasting 1 day or more I just figured it was 24 hours :P

EDIT : and it's also possible I was thinking Elemental Body, which is 24 hours.

Riffington

2009-12-17, 09:55 PM

Eh... not really. It's a great defensive spell to have, but super strong? Hardly. It's an hrs/lvl spell that grants water breathing and swimming, but the relevant part here allows you to use FoM as a swift action for rounds per level (and then dispelling the whole thing).

edit lol ninja

FoM is super strong (even at 10 min/level), which is why Heart of Water is (at hrs/level and only a 3rd level spell) even stronger still. To wit:
I had previously believed that if somehow a monk got hold of a 9th level wizard in a grapple with silence on, and the wizard didn't have a Silent spell prepared (and all the other caveats), the wizard was likely to die. Now that I hear of Heart of Water as a 3rd level spell, I no longer believe that. It would be a good but not uber spell if FoM didn't get you out of grapples. But it does.

Kylarra

2009-12-17, 10:01 PM

FoM is super strong (even at 10 min/level), which is why Heart of Water is (at hrs/level and only a 3rd level spell) even stronger still. To wit:
I had previously believed that if somehow a monk got hold of a 9th level wizard in a grapple with silence on, and the wizard didn't have a Silent spell prepared (and all the other caveats), the wizard was likely to die. Now that I hear of Heart of Water as a 3rd level spell, I no longer believe that. It would be a good but not uber spell if FoM didn't get you out of grapples. But it does.
Heart of Water can give you FoM for rounds/lvl as a swift action once. The primary advantage is that the static buff that sets it up lasts for hours/lvl so it's "always on" at 9th level, or effectively anyway.

JonestheSpy

2009-12-17, 10:02 PM

No.

Also: never heard of heart of water til now - clearly a super strong spell.

Me neither. Yeah, saying a wizard must always have some non-core cheesey spell ready at all times is painting a lousy scenario simulation, imho.

Likewise, the debate over Contact Other Plane misses a few major points (which seems like a typical thing when folks are discussing wizard uberness). First, would you really, really, risk being zapped down to 8 Int and Cha for weeks every morning as a matter of habit? It's an Int check, so even if you've got a big bonus it's a lot harder than making a savings throw, and you're going to fail fairly often.

Also, as a DM I don't know if I'd rule that the entities contacted necessarily know the future. "Is anyone planning on attacking me?" is a legitimate question, but not "How many random encounters will I have today?"

It just seems to me that folks talk a lot about divination preparing wizards for everything, but I don't see it working out in actual play.

Riffington

2009-12-17, 10:04 PM

Heart of Water can give you FoM for rounds/lvl as a swift action once. The primary advantage is that the static buff that sets it up lasts for hours/lvl so it's "always on" at 9th level, or effectively anyway.

Right. But rounds/level is more than enough for virtually any grapple-related purpose.

Kylarra

2009-12-17, 10:05 PM

Right. But rounds/level is more than enough for virtually any grapple-related purpose.Well yes, as far as screwing over your grappling monk is concerned, 1 round of FoM is good enough.

jseah

2009-12-17, 10:06 PM

Once you've seen Heart of Water, and bought a lesser rod of extend, you will have it on at all times.

Like you'll have Mage Armour on at all times. And Phantom Steed.

It's just the things that they do.

********************************

About COP: Take 10 on the check.

Is anyone planning to attack me is a valid question as well and could be a backup if they can't answer the future question (depending on DM, by RAW, the spell can answer ANY question).
Besides, a monk who is set up to ambush and knows enough of you to do so, will almost certainly show up on a divination sweep for dangers. He's planning to kill you, if that's not a danger...

JonestheSpy

2009-12-17, 10:10 PM

BTW, maybe I missed this, but why isn't a monk using Stunning Fist in this scenario? It seems pretty obvious.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 10:13 PM

Me neither. Yeah, saying a wizard must always have some non-core cheesey spell ready at all times is painting a lousy scenario simulation, imho.

I won't claim that every lvl 9+ wizard in existence keeps heart of water up. It's good, but not *every* one will.

However, it's one of several fail safe ways of avoiding or escaping grapples. Personally, I enjoy persisting mirror image. This is essentially a "no" to any grapples, all day long. Mirror image is core.

Likewise, a silent dimension door is core.

It's not that all wizards have a specific way to get out...it's that they all tend to have some escape route planned out. Which specific one isn't important, it's only important that they have one.

Likewise, the debate over Contact Other Plane misses a few major points (which seems like a typical thing when folks are discussing wizard uberness). First, would you really, really, risk being zapped down to 8 Int and Cha for weeks every morning as a matter of habit? It's an Int check, so even if you've got a big bonus it's a lot harder than making a savings throw, and you're going to fail fairly often.

Also, as a DM I don't know if I'd rule that the entities contacted necessarily know the future.

What's the point of divination if not to know the future? That's what the schol pretty much exists for, and the name kinda implies it's for that.

"Is anyone planning on attacking me?" is a legitimate question, but not "How many random encounters will I have today?"

Is anyone planning on attacking me? Seriously, as a high level adventurer, I can answer that question. Yes. Someone is ALWAYS planning something nefarious with regards to you. Or you're going to be attacked by something that hasn't planned to yet(say, something mindless). It's a useless question.

Making an entire school useless by DM fiat seems a really poor fix.

It just seems to me that folks talk a lot about divination preparing wizards for everything, but I don't see it working out in actual play.

Well no, it wont, if you essentially say "it fails" whenever a player tries to use it.

jseah

2009-12-17, 10:19 PM

Is anyone planning on attacking me? Seriously, as a high level adventurer, I can answer that question. Yes. Someone is ALWAYS planning something nefarious with regards to you. Or you're going to be attacked by something that hasn't planned to yet(say, something mindless). It's a useless question.
Modify it then. "What's the first name of the person who poses the greatest threat to my well-being and goals?"
Ditto for second name.
"What's the nearest landmark, city or memorable location to where this person is?"

Anyone who just thinks about it for a bit will see that within two or three castings you can glean enough information to act on.

Riffington

2009-12-17, 10:24 PM

Modify it then. "What's the first name of the person who poses the greatest threat to my well-being and goals?"

Now *that's* a self-fulfilling prophecy if I ever heard one ;)

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 10:25 PM

Modify it then. "What's the first name of the person who poses the greatest threat to my well-being and goals?"
Ditto for second name.
"What's the nearest landmark, city or memorable location to where this person is?"

Anyone who just thinks about it for a bit will see that within two or three castings you can glean enough information to act on.

That is a better question. However, it also implies knowledge of the future. Or at least, very good prediction of the future, which is essentially the same thing.

It does, however, have the downside of being subjective, since it asks about well being and goals, which are two subtly different things. The best questions are simple and have exactly one correct answer, like "Who will first attack me today?".

Never ask things like "Will I be attacked today". That gets you yes or no. The above question will get you "nobody" instead of no, but instead of yes, you will get additional information.

How powerful divination is depends on the user.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 10:26 PM

Now *that's* a self-fulfilling prophecy if I ever heard one ;)

Yeah, that thought occurred to me as well. Invariably, it's some kid. You'll kill his entire family, but somehow, he'll be raised by strangers or animals, and come to seek vengeance.

If something sounds like the beginning to a fairy tale, run like hell.

jseah

2009-12-17, 10:27 PM

I just came across something that could potentially be extremely weird with COP.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#expose

The Third Eye of Expose tells you when you are lied to. No saves, no nothing, you just know, the end.

Wouldn't this negate the "lie" part of COP? Making accuracy shoot through the roof for yes/no questions.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 10:33 PM

Huh. Yeah, automatic knowledge. That seems....quite powerful for this work. Of course, for 112k gold, it should be powerful.

I probably still wouldn't buy it. I'd rather accept slight uncertainty, and spend the gold on gaining more raw power.

JonestheSpy

2009-12-17, 10:55 PM

What's the point of divination if not to know the future? That's what the schol pretty much exists for, and the name kinda implies it's for that.

Making an entire school useless by DM fiat seems a really poor fix.

No offense there Tyndmyr, but I don't think you're actually too familiar with the Divination school. Go look it up - what I described would affect Contact Other Plane and no other spell. The only other arcane spells that involve seeing the future in any way are Foresight and Moment of Prescience, which of course are specifically about glimpsing the near future and need no interpretation.

Preventing abuse isn't the same as nerfing - certainly not nerfing an entire school of magic.

Well no, it wont, if you essentially say "it fails" whenever a player tries to use it.

Setting reasonable limits isn't the same as declaring automatic failure by DM fiat (no matter how some players might fell about it...).

Oh, and I notice that no one seems to addressed that little issue of COP mentally crippling the caster every so often...

jseah

2009-12-17, 11:01 PM

Take 10 on the check. It's an ability check, just take 10.

Not if you're in a battle, but sitting in a rope trick isn't exactly a stressful situation.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-17, 11:05 PM

Your "reasonable limits" are not RAW. Thus, they constitute a nerf.

Divination is an awareness school. Part of that is awareness of the future, and divination is strongly associated with that in fantasy lore. There are other spells that also allow knowledge of the future, such as Vision, too. It's a pretty big part of the school.

jseah beat me to it, but yeah...taking ten is the obvious way out. It's not as if the DCs are that hard anyhow. Int checks aren't terribly bad for wizards to begin with.

Lysander

2009-12-17, 11:25 PM

awa

2009-12-17, 11:25 PM

Milskidasith

2009-12-18, 12:19 AM

I'll tell you how a 9th level monk kills a 9th level wizard.

1. Take a monk robe and rub it on a pile of corpses that died by disease. Get the robe crawling with every kind of nasty deadly debilitating germ imaginable.

2. Put on robe.

3. Find the wizard. Perhaps at the 9th level adventurer convention in town. Walk up to the wizard, warmly smile, and shake his hand. "I'm a huge admirer of your work," you say.

4. Go home whistling merrily in joy over your handy Purity of Body ability. 1 day later the wizard fails a number of fortitude checks and keels over.

Diseases aren't generally that life threatening... let's just take all the contact diseases imagineable from core, and put them on one wizard. Let's say he has 18 con with items (16 base, not hard to imagine), and a +2 cloak of resistance, for a total fortitude saving throw of +9 with no other bonuses.

He gets Cerebral Parasites, limiting his ability to multiclass into psion, DC 15. 25% of the time, he will be infected, slowly losing something he doesn't have. Poor parasites.

He also gets mummy rot... he has a 50% chance of failing this check, and this is the only possibly threatening disease. Even then, a cleric healing him can do so in more than enough time.

Shakes deals a decent amount of dex damage, but he has only a mere 15% chance of failing the throw.

Slimy Doom might possibly be the most annoying, if only because, on a 1 in 25 chance that he fails his initial saving throw and another one, he takes 1 permanent point of constitution drain.

None of those diseases are, at all, lethal to the wizard, although mummy rot (which, being a magical disease, would hit the monk, as well) would require money to cure. This is assuming, of course, that a disease with no host could persist long enough for the monk to meet the wizard.

So no, the plan doesn't work.

olentu

2009-12-18, 12:32 AM

Well one might want to leave out supernatural diseases as monks do not get immunity to them as I recall.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 12:42 AM

that int check seems really pointless the dcs are so massively low any caster who could cast the spell can make all but the highest difficulties by taking ten.
Either they didn't intend the caster to take 10s on this or they just added a completely pointless weakness to the spell

They didn't intend the caster to take 10s. You can't take 10s if you're being threatened or distracted, which you are both - you are concentrating on the spell, distracting you from the effort of resisting the mighty force of the alien mind, and you are threatened by the annoyance/resentment of the deity (carrying more force than the burning wrath of a mere mortal).
That said, you are relying on information that you get from a resentful deity. I'd try to be careful of that, personally.

Milskidasith

2009-12-18, 12:57 AM

They didn't intend the caster to take 10s. You can't take 10s if you're being threatened or distracted, which you are both - you are concentrating on the spell, distracting you from the effort of resisting the mighty force of the alien mind, and you are threatened by the annoyance/resentment of the deity (carrying more force than the burning wrath of a mere mortal).
That said, you are relying on information that you get from a resentful deity. I'd try to be careful of that, personally.

The spell has specific chances for what you get; if you give an incorrect answer due to resentfullness, you are DM fiating the spell.

sofawall

2009-12-18, 12:59 AM

So no taking 10 on jump checks, because I am threatened by the fall I am going to have after the apex of my jump and I am distracted by the pretty butterflies around me?

Also, most deities aren't all that. Just putting that out there.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 01:02 AM

"What's the nearest landmark, city or memorable location to where this person is?"

Anyone who just thinks about it for a bit will see that within two or three castings you can glean enough information to act on.

Except that the answers are always one word.

So, if that memorable location is: "Valley of the Broken Arrow"

Your answer would be one of those words.

The spell has specific chances for what you get; if you give an incorrect answer due to resentfullness, you are DM fiating the spell.
But it does allow for deity judgement and interpretation. "What's the first name of the first creature that poses a threat to me?" requires the deity interpret what creature would pose a threat. Further, deities aren't possessed, standard, of foreknowledge of the future. Such questions would likely be estimated from the most likely. But whenever you get into predictions of the future that could change, you get into dicey territory.

If the true answer is "I don't know", then even on a result of 1-88, the answer will be "unknown".

Riffington

2009-12-18, 01:18 AM

The spell has specific chances for what you get; if you give an incorrect answer due to resentfullness, you are DM fiating the spell.

No DM fiat needed. The specific chances given by the spell are harsh enough. Unless you mean the "fiat" that if the deity decides to mislead you, he will continue to do so through multiple followups.

So no taking 10 on jump checks
No taking 10 on abnormally hazardous or momentous jump checks (in the Olympics, when there are sufficiently scary spikes under the pit, etc.
If direct mental contact with an annoyed deity doesn't count, what does?

Kurald Galain

2009-12-18, 03:38 AM

If direct mental contact with an annoyed deity doesn't count, what does?
Ah, and why would your deity be annoyed with you, again? Suppose you are a knowledge-seeking wizard worshipping a knowledge-loving god (yeah, that's gonna be rare), and that you are singlehandedly keeping the town safe from nasty monk would-be assassins... seems to me your deity would strongly approve.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 03:50 AM

Ah, and why would your deity be annoyed with you, again? Suppose you are a knowledge-seeking wizard worshipping a knowledge-loving god (yeah, that's gonna be rare), and that you are singlehandedly keeping the town safe from nasty monk would-be assassins... seems to me your deity would strongly approve.

Why?

You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there. (See the accompanying table for possible
consequences and results of the attempt.) The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (The DM answers all questions with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.) You must concentrate on maintaining the spell (a standard action) in order to ask questions at the rate of one per round. A question is answered by the power during the same round. For every two caster levels, you may ask one question.

Perhaps the knowledge loving deity resents his knowledge loving player becoming totally dependent upon him, and get annoyed because the player CAN take care of the issue without pestering him, but chooses not to.

The explanation is irrelevant. By the text of the spell, it doesn't matter if you're contacting the Overdeity of CoP Answering. It resents the contact.

Turning a god into the D&D equivalent of Remote Tech Support makes them resent getting the call. Meets my criteria for verisimilitude. :smallwink:

lord_khaine

2009-12-18, 04:24 AM

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 04:38 AM

So in the end i guess the Monk just have to wait for the wizard to fail the int check on CoP.

anyway, did anyone ever post any foolproof defence against a surprise stunning fist followed by a full attack with poisoned weapons?

Contingent Teleport?
Not being found by the monk in the first place?
Being immune to damage?

Tell you what, You got a foolproof defense versus Surprise round Rod Maximized Time Stop, followed by Dimension lock, Rod Maximized Maw of chaos x2, and Forcecage?

And it's possible to autopass the Int check. All you need is a +15 to the roll, which is attainable.

lord_khaine

2009-12-18, 04:57 AM

Contingent Teleport?
Not being found by the monk in the first place?
Being immune to damage?

Im pretty sure most of these are not duable by level 9, and the not being found part is defently not doable if the monk is comming after you because you just took over the kingdom (thats the core of the original discussion on this subject).

Tell you what, You got a foolproof defense versus Surprise round Rod Maximized Time Stop, followed by Dimension lock, Rod Maximized Maw of chaos x2, and Forcecage?

This really isnt doable by level 9, so im just going to ignore it.

And it's possible to autopass the Int check. All you need is a +15 to the roll, which is attainable.

It really looks like you did not bother reading the original post, else i would really like to see what kind of cheese you would use to get such a high int.

edit.
oh and btw, being immune to damage would not help against the poison.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 05:14 AM

Im pretty sure most of these are not duable by level 9, and the not being found part is defently not doable if the monk is comming after you because you just took over the kingdom (thats the core of the original discussion on this subject).
Not being found is certainly possible. Kingdoms are big places. Wizards, even by level 9, are capable of scry shielding and sending orders/etc from secure locations. The few occasions he's out, he can be under heavy guard, with orders to kill any who approach within, say, 300 feet. If he owns a kingdom, he has a kingdom's resources at his disposal.

oh and btw, being immune to damage would not help against the poison.
The vast majority of poisons are injury. Being immune to damage makes you immune to injury based effects. The side effect of that, though is a fat save bonus for fort. Combine with the typically pathetic save DC's for contact poisons, and there you have it.

Further, if you wanna go RAW, contact poisons on you affect you. If you're immune, they're wasted without effect. But they don't sit around on the fists waiting for the first hand you shake. Even if you're immune, it is used upon successful contact with a living creature. If you satisfy that condition by smearing it on your ham-fists, then that's that.

Incidentally, the OP, if you'd care to go back and review, points out the imbalance of situations for the "monk vs wizard" comments.

Such as: The monk just HAPPENS to always know exactly where the wizard is, without any resource investment. The wizard, however, no matter the divination, cannot find information about the monk.

A point you have reinforced with your warped view.

Myrmex

2009-12-18, 05:15 AM

A prepared wizard can survive anything. If we assume that the wizard has taken precautions to detect and stop anyone sneaking up on him, the monk has no chance. If not, he has a chance.

Just summarizing what the general conclusion of the 100+ posts this will inevitably attract will probably be.

At level nine, though, the wizard may not have such spells prepared.

But then, anyone who can either a) lockdown the other character or b) kill them outright in a surprise round will do awesomely. It really doesn't matter on who is vs. who, so long as one of those conditions is met.

Such as: The monk just HAPPENS to always know exactly where the wizard is, without any resource investment. The wizard, however, no matter the divination, cannot find information about the monk.

At level 9, how frequently do your wizards devote spell slots to finding out who is stalking them? What spells do you use? How certain are you of their accuracy? Do you just take improved familiar with your 9th level feat on every wizard?

A very common scenario involves the PCs meddling in the wrong person's business, and assassins are dispatched.

Kurald Galain

2009-12-18, 05:27 AM

A very common scenario involves the PCs meddling in the wrong person's business, and assassins are dispatched.
Of course. However, one should hope that whatever enemy the PC has made dispatches assassins that are a viable threat. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight, and you don't send a tier-five character to take down a party with tier-one characters.

Kantolin

2009-12-18, 05:27 AM

A lot of wizards will not have most of these defenses prepared - epsecially contact other plane, as that's a pretty funky one.

Most - emphasis most - wizards who do have all of these defenses prepared, especially at levels like 9, won't have any actual adventuring capability. They'll be unkillable yes, but uh, that's about it really. :P They'll be good at getting out of snags, fin.

Now, that said. Grappling is a significant vulnerability for the usually low-strength wizard. Every wizard I've ever seen that has ever been grappled, even with a previous character, usually has some plan in place for 'oh, what if I get grappled'. ~10 is usually the level at which things like that become feasible, although that's too early for a ring of freedom of movement.

Although, uh. /My/ usual 'holy crap' defense is dimension door or teleport. And I can only (usually) do it once at those levels - I rely on having a party about.

Anyway. Yeah, that will probably work on quite a few wizards. I'd probably look into keeping a heart of water around if the DM started making this the Campaign of Grappling Kantolins, but until then I don't really /need/ it for typical adventuring. I mean, 'the spell of stops a grapple a day and is really unlikely to do anything else unless we're swimming'? Maybe if I was high enough level that I wasn't using my 3rd level spell slots... but that's a haste you're talking about. Or a fly. Or a displacement. :P

Myrmex

2009-12-18, 05:31 AM

Of course. However, one should hope that whatever enemy the PC has made dispatches assassins that are a viable threat. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight, and you don't send a tier-five character to take down a party with tier-one characters.

Unless you enjoy humiliating your players. :smallbiggrin:

As for bringing a knife to a gunfight:
http://theradishpress.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/commando1.jpg

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 05:34 AM

Stuff

Want the admission?

Yes, in absolute optimum conditions for a monk, with total unpreparedness on the wizard's part, and lenient interpretations of a half dozen rules, as well as ignoring others, all in favor of the monk...

Under those conditions, yes, a monk can win.

In the typical game? The monk doesn't get to handwave finding the PC's, unless the DM doesn't care about verisimilatude.

The monk doesn't get to put contact poison on his hands and save it for others, even if he IS immune.

And Surprise rounds are Standard action only, which precludes a full round flurry with poison.

Unless you enjoy humiliating your players. :smallbiggrin:
Aaaand, with this... I have no more desire to discuss anything with you. Ever. The game's about fun. Not humiliating people who are supposed to be friends.

lord_khaine

2009-12-18, 05:43 AM

Not being found is certainly possible. Kingdoms are big places. Wizards, even by level 9, are capable of scry shielding and sending orders/etc from secure locations. The few occasions he's out, he can be under heavy guard, with orders to kill any who approach within, say, 300 feet. If he owns a kingdom, he has a kingdom's resources at his disposal.

great opportunity for the monk to sneak up disguised as a guard.

The vast majority of poisons are injury. Being immune to damage makes you immune to injury based effects. The side effect of that, though is a fat save bonus for fort. Combine with the typically pathetic save DC's for contact poisons, and there you have it.

Well, depends on how you become immune to damage, and at level 9 i dont think you can keep it up all way anyway.

Further, if you wanna go RAW, contact poisons on you affect you. If you're immune, they're wasted without effect. But they don't sit around on the fists waiting for the first hand you shake. Even if you're immune, it is used upon successful contact with a living creature. If you satisfy that condition by smearing it on your ham-fists, then that's that.

Can be solved by either thin gloves or the use of weapons.

Incidentally, the OP, if you'd care to go back and review, points out the imbalance of situations for the "monk vs wizard" comments.

I dont see the relevant of this, but im surprised you noticed this, but not the level of the wizard.

Such as: The monk just HAPPENS to always know exactly where the wizard is, without any resource investment. The wizard, however, no matter the divination, cannot find information about the monk.

A point you have reinforced with your warped view.

You should be carefull about throwing stones when you dont notice where you live yourself.

The Monk have information about the wizard because he is the highlevel (9) threat that might be taking over the kingdom on his own, this discussion was about whereever any noncasters of the same level had a chance to put a stop to it.

And Surprise rounds are Standard action only, which precludes a full round flurry with poison.

That enough for a stunning fist, the flurry was a follow up on the situation where the wizard did not make the save.

Myrmex

2009-12-18, 05:44 AM

Want the admission?

Yes, in absolute optimum conditions for a monk, with total unpreparedness on the wizard's part, and lenient interpretations of a half dozen rules, as well as ignoring others, all in favor of the monk...

Under those conditions, yes, a monk can win.

No; at level 9, all anyone needs is the ability to go first and remove the ability of the other character to react. At any level, really. Doesn't matter on the class either, so long as those conditions are met. Casters naturally meet those conditions far easier than a monk, but at level 9, the differences aren't so big. That, and most times, a wizard doesn't have a full spell load out & build to totally foil stealthy attacks. Granted, a wizard could be perfectly prepared to handle just about any CR equivalent encounter given knowledge of the specific metagame, but the wizard typically doesn't have that luxury. Instead, he has general knowledge- today we're fighting trolls and undead, for instance.

It's entirely trivial for the DM to have an encounter that targets a party member's weaknesses, and, in many circumstances, makes sense.

In the typical game? The monk doesn't get to handwave finding the PC's, unless the DM doesn't care about verisimilatude.

Elaborate, if you will.

The monk doesn't get to put contact poison on his hands and save it for others, even if he IS immune.

And Surprise rounds are Standard action only, which precludes a full round flurry with poison.

...ok? If you really wanted to be a jerk about it, you'd go dragonwrought kobold monk2/warrior4/soul drinker 1. It stands a good chance to bring the wizard down rapidly. That's only a CR 4 encounter, too.

But I'm not really sure what contact poison on yer fists has to do with what I posted....

[edit]
I just realized 9th level means an incantatrix wizard could have an ungodly number of buffs up. If you're playing at that level, then I definitely concede the battle to the wizard. The monk might win 5% of the time or something like that.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 05:58 AM

great opportunity for the monk to sneak up disguised as a guard.PROVIDED HE KNOWS WHERE THE WIZARD IS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

What if the wizard's not at the keep? What if the monk doesn't get disguise as a class skill? What if he doesn't know the basic passwords of the keep? What if he is wearing a "Green clearance" uniform and wanders into a "blue clearance" zone, and is apprehended on the way?

There are so many holes in the "well I happen to see the wizard over there and I'm gonna saunter on over and say HAI with my POIZON FIST."

Including, what if the caster isn't even at the keep, but people THINK he is?

I dont see the relevant of this, but im surprised you noticed this, but not the level of the wizard.The relevance is that you're assuming the monk will get to maintain 24 hour surveillance on the poor stupid wizard and his poor stupid guards, masterfully disguised, cross class, scrying the wizard for his precise moment when his spells aren't up, ignoring the retinue and bodyguard, and sucker punching him in the face.

You should be carefull about throwing stones when you dont notice where you live yourself.

The Monk have information about the wizard because he is the highlevel (9) threat that might be taking over the kingdom on his own, this discussion was about whereever any noncasters of the same level had a chance to put a stop to it.misinformation, not specific enough to provide a location, and the information would need to be gathered via gather information, ANOTHER cross class skill.

My, it's amazing how powerful the monk class is, because of all its cross class skills. Frankly, anything you've described, could be done 3 times better with a rogue.

That enough for a stunning fist, the flurry was a follow up on the situation where the wizard did not make the save.
And the retinue? The ones that take the opportunity to skewer you alive?

Or did those magically disappear in the fortress you've discovered through your cross class information gathering, and infiltrated with your cross class disguising, because it's convenient?

Teron

2009-12-18, 06:01 AM

The Monk have information about the wizard because he is the highlevel (9) threat that might be taking over the kingdom on his own, this discussion was about whereever any noncasters of the same level had a chance to put a stop to it.
No, that's why the monk would want information about the wizard, assuming he's aware of the threat at all. It doesn't address how he actually gets it.

Myrmex

2009-12-18, 06:01 AM

Well, is the wizard going to detect the monk with his cross-class spot?

Kurald Galain

2009-12-18, 06:12 AM

Well, is the wizard going to detect the monk with his cross-class spot?

Well, is the monk going to find the wizard with his cross-class divination spells?

Kaiyanwang

2009-12-18, 06:17 AM

Well, is the monk going to find the wizard with his cross-class divination spells?

So, let's throw in an incantation!

(semi-seriously :smalltongue:)

Myrmex

2009-12-18, 06:23 AM

Well, is the monk going to find the wizard with his cross-class divination spells?

No; he's going to use is his cross-class gather information skills.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 06:34 AM

Just a very stupid RAW question:
If you have up your hr/level Heart of Water, can you actually expend it for the Freedom of Movement while you are Stunned or Grappled?

lord_khaine

2009-12-18, 06:35 AM

PROVIDED HE KNOWS WHERE THE WIZARD IS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

What if the wizard's not at the keep? What if the monk doesn't get disguise as a class skill? What if he doesn't know the basic passwords of the keep? What if he is wearing a "Green clearance" uniform and wanders into a "blue clearance" zone, and is apprehended on the way?

There are so many holes in the "well I happen to see the wizard over there and I'm gonna saunter on over and say HAI with my POIZON FIST."

Including, what if the caster isn't even at the keep, but people THINK he is?

CAPS DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE RIGHT
And if the monk doesnt find the wizard, nothing happens and he can just continue to try and seach.

The relevance is that you're assuming the monk will get to maintain 24 hour surveillance on the poor stupid wizard and his poor stupid guards, masterfully disguised, cross class, scrying the wizard for his precise moment when his spells aren't up, ignoring the retinue and bodyguard, and sucker punching him in the face.

No, thats just what you are saying that im saying, im just assuming that a class with stealth skills have a decent chance of getting a surprise action against a class who does not have detection class skills.

And i ignore retinue and bodyguards because they wont be of any level to contribute.

misinformation, not specific enough to provide a location, and the information would need to be gathered via gather information, ANOTHER cross class skill.

There is no specific information here that could not simply be gotten by asking around a bit with diplomacy.

My, it's amazing how powerful the monk class is, because of all its cross class skills. Frankly, anything you've described, could be done 3 times better with a rogue.

Yet again you manage to raise a point thats 100% irrelevant.

And the retinue? The ones that take the opportunity to skewer you alive?

Or did those magically disappear in the fortress you've discovered through your cross class information gathering, and infiltrated with your cross class disguising, because it's convenient?

They wont do anything because they are level 1-2.

No, that's why the monk would want information about the wizard, assuming he's aware of the threat at all. It doesn't address how he actually gets it.
Asking nice with diplomacy.

Well, is the monk going to find the wizard with his cross-class divination spells?
Unnececary when he does have class spot skill.

jseah

2009-12-18, 06:39 AM

Just a very stupid RAW question:
If you have up your hr/level Heart of Water, can you actually expend it for the Freedom of Movement while you are Stunned or Grappled?
If you can take swift actions, yes.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 06:42 AM

If you can take swift actions, yes.

Right, but that was my question: can you take them while grappled or stunned? Grapple gives a list of actions that can be taken; stun doesn't allow any. It doesn't seem quite right (although on the other hand it would explain why Heart of Water is only 3rd level)

Optimystik

2009-12-18, 06:43 AM

How about monk vs. druid at the same level?

jseah

2009-12-18, 06:46 AM

No taking 10 on abnormally hazardous or momentous jump checks (in the Olympics, when there are sufficiently scary spikes under the pit, etc.
If direct mental contact with an annoyed deity doesn't count, what does?
1. Taking 10 is the purview of the character.
2. If taking 10 would bypass said obstacle, then that obstacle may as well not be there.
3. Said obstacle is not a threat in that case.

***********************************************

While the above line of reasoning is contentious...

- Concentrating on a spell or some such action does not preclude taking 10.

- Does the ability to take 10 on the check depend on whether the character knows there are spikes in the pit? XD
Coz it gets really weird at that point. To the character, it looks like any other pit to him that he could easily leap across (take 10).
If he's not allowed to take 10, I presume the character knows that he suddenly cannot perform reliably (after all, a jump check is active) and thus he suddenly knows there is some danger in the pit simply by jumping across.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 06:46 AM

How about monk vs. druid at the same level?

Druid has listen, enough hp to take a few rounds of monkblows, good saves vs stunning fist, and grapples with the best of 'em. The monk needs a very clever plan indeed.

jseah

2009-12-18, 06:48 AM

Right, but that was my question: can you take them while grappled or stunned? Grapple gives a list of actions that can be taken; stun doesn't allow any. It doesn't seem quite right (although on the other hand it would explain why Heart of Water is only 3rd level)
If it doesn't allow swift actions, then no, no activating Heart of Water.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 06:49 AM

- Concentrating on a spell or some such action does not preclude taking 10.

Sure it does. "concentrating on something else" implies distracted.

- Does the ability to take 10 on the check depend on whether the character knows there are spikes in the pit?

Certainly. If you believe (correctly or otherwise) that there are dangerous spikes, you can't take 10. If you don't believe (correctly or otherwise) that there are, you can.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 06:54 AM

CAPS DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE RIGHT
And if the monk doesnt find the wizard, nothing happens and he can just continue to try and seach.And if a roll of 20 can't get it?

The scenario you posited means that the monk's onus is attacking. Monk fails, wizard kills a hundred babies. Monk loses. Why? Because the monk has a reason to attack the wizard. The wizard couldn't give two craps about the monk, until he invades the wizard's home, and makes an attempt on his life.

Rogue, however, would have succeeded.

No, thats just what you are saying that im saying, im just assuming that a class with stealth skills have a decent chance of getting a surprise action against a class who does not have detection class skills.Not if he has to cross across an open courtyard to get at the wizard. Now his surprise round is "Move". You're assuming, with bodyguards present, you can approach to 10 feet away, reliably, without being seen. Otherwise, your surprise round is spent getting into position.

And i ignore retinue and bodyguards because they wont be of any level to contribute.Ah, because the wizard regularly uses bodyguards that can't actually bodyguard.

Which of these two classes has a primary focus on intelligence, again?

There is no specific information here that could not simply be gotten by asking around a bit with diplomacy.Incorrect. Gather information is for gathering information. Diplomacy is for making people like you.

Without gathering information, you're not finding the people that have the information. You're just making ignorant NPC's friendly to you.

They wont do anything because they are level 1-2.Again, I'd like to point out that the wizard is, presumably, intelligent. Methods should be in place that prevent the monk from disguising his way into the keep and accessing the inner levels, just based on passwords, and insignia. Even so, in an open area, you don't need a high spot to see people. The monk doesn't hide in plain sight.

And what else do they do? They occupy spaces that the monk can't get in without using a standard action to bullrush... Thus ruining the surprise round.

Asking nice with diplomacy.That will get you a friendly person who doesn't know. There is one and only one RAW way to gather information. Oddly enough, it's titled "Gather Information".

Unnececary when he does have class spot skill.
Doesn't matter. Let's say this keep has 15 wizards. Let's further say that 4 of them are dressed the same as the one you're after. How exactly does you class spot skill help you discern which is which? Even if your fail Gather Information manages to figure out what the wizard looks like, you still have a 1 in 5.

Even if you do that, unless you can sneak across a broad open courtyard, your surprise round is: "move towards the wizard, stopping at the wall of level 1-2 people that can't do anything... except block my path... and interrogate you for the authorization codes from a distance".

Radiun

2009-12-18, 06:57 AM

And if the monk has the presence of mind to pay someone who is good at gathering information to do it for him?
Can he get information then?

Kurald Galain

2009-12-18, 06:59 AM

No; he's going to use is his cross-class gather information skills.
Okay, of the wizard and the monk, which of the two has more skill points to spend on cross-class skills?

jseah

2009-12-18, 07:00 AM

Sure it does. "concentrating on something else" implies distracted.

Certainly. If you believe (correctly or otherwise) that there are dangerous spikes, you can't take 10. If you don't believe (correctly or otherwise) that there are, you can.
I just reread the take 10 section. It's unbelievably vague.

Although, whether there is a downside to failure does not stop you from taking 10.

you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll
In this case, of the jumper across a pit he is told is full of spikes, bloody well will make sure he takes care to make the jump.
If he isn't in combat or under some kind of stress, I don't see why suddenly being told there are spikes in the pit prevents you from taking 10.

Unless you wish for wizards to start CC skills in autohypnosis. "There is no danger. I am not afraid. " XD

Whether concentrating on a spell counts as a distraction is also unclear. The only example given is "in combat".
Your rule implies that clerics casting cure on a wound that requires a heal check cannot take 10 even if they are out of battle.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 07:06 AM

And if the monk has the presence of mind to pay someone who is good at gathering information to do it for him?
Can he get information then?

Sure. Point one out. Oh wait.

He'd need gather information to find one.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 07:06 AM

I just reread the take 10 section. It's unbelievably vague.

Although, whether there is a downside to failure does not stop you from taking 10.
A downside doesn't stop you. Danger does.

In this case, of the jumper across a pit he is told is full of spikes, bloody well will make sure he takes care to make the jump.
Sure, but haven't you noticed how when you want someone to succeed at a scary task, you have better results if you keep secret the part that ought to scare them?

If he isn't in combat or under some kind of stress, I don't see why suddenly being told there are spikes in the pit prevents you from taking 10.
The spikes are the stress. Of course, if spikes aren't stressful to you (you're high level that spikes barely hurt, have feather fall, etc) that's a different story.

Unless you wish for wizards to start CC skills in autohypnosis. "There is no danger. I am not afraid. " XD
autohypnosis would work. The DC for spikes would probably be 10; the DC for deity would probably be [Hit Dice]

Whether concentrating on a spell counts as a distraction is also unclear. The only example given is "in combat".
surely it is.

Your rule implies that clerics casting cure on a wound that requires a heal check cannot take 10 even if they are out of battle.
Please explain. I'm not certain I follow this.

Radiun

2009-12-18, 07:08 AM

Sure. Point one out. Oh wait.

He'd need gather information to find one.

N'ah, all barkeeps are level 5 experts solely focused on Gather Information.
That's why their bars are always so filthy and food questionable, no ranks in profession (cook) or profession (cleaner)

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 07:11 AM

Okay, of the wizard and the monk, which of the two has more skill points to spend on cross-class skills?

Depends.

If the Wizard's intelligence (primary focus) is 4 points higher than the monk's, then they have the same.

So, if the wizard, with an 18 intelligence, and 2 level bumps at level 9 (20 int, +5 modifier) is oppoed by a monk with an intelligence of less than 16?

Then the Wizard does.

A downside doesn't stop you. Danger does.

+1.

Downsides stop taking 20.

Combat threat stops taking 10.

jseah

2009-12-18, 07:17 AM

A downside doesn't stop you. Danger does.

Please explain. I'm not certain I follow this.
Bah, what I meant was that the whole thing was vague enough that RAW doesn't exist anymore.

So yes, you have a way to nerf COP by not allowing Int checks to take 10. It will be up to your DM on how to interpret whether taking 10 is allowed.
Hmm... is there a way to get bonuses high enough?

About the cleric one, if concentrating on casting a spell counts as a distraction preventing you from taking 10, then you can't take 10 while casting cure X wounds. (some kinds of damage need a Heal check to use cure X on)

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 07:20 AM

jseah

2009-12-18, 07:22 AM

You can get +15 to the Ability check without difficulty.
I would dearly like to know how. Would certainly help in more than just this.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 07:25 AM

Bah, what I meant was that the whole thing was vague enough that RAW doesn't exist anymore.

So yes, you have a way to nerf COP by not allowing Int checks to take 10. It will be up to your DM on how to interpret whether taking 10 is allowed.
Hmm... is there a way to get bonuses high enough?

About the cleric one, if concentrating on casting a spell counts as a distraction preventing you from taking 10, then you can't take 10 while casting cure X wounds. (some kinds of damage need a Heal check to use cure X on)

Which cure X wounds require concentration?

I'd rather say that I'm describing CoP as intended and you are allowing an unintended buff to the spell by glossing over the intended difficulty. You really think the spell was written with a whole table for a "drawback" that simply requires an Int of 6 to bypass? Really?

jseah

2009-12-18, 07:30 AM

Cure X don't need concentration. But they just casted a spell in the same round. I'm sure that's close enough. (unless you're saying that you can take 10 if you ended concentration in the round you took 10 in)

Or I'm sonorous humming another concentration spell then I cannot take 10?
There are ways to concentrate on things without actually spending actions.

*************************

As for intention... RAW, my friend. The Int of 6 to pass the check is an interesting conclusion but still valid nevertheless.

Taking 10 was the way I ran it. Although the kind of games I run tend to be magic as technology.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 07:36 AM

I would dearly like to know how. Would certainly help in more than just this.

18 int = +4
+4 (level bumps) = +6
+6 (Item) = +9
Luckstone = +10
Heroism = +12

Now you need only a +3. Assuming you can UMD a wand of Improvisation (bard 1), at CL 6, you have that.

There are other ways, that's just off the top of my head.

Granted, the higher your level is, the better you get at it.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 07:36 AM

Cure X don't need concentration. But they just casted a spell in the same round. I'm sure that's close enough. (unless you're saying that you can take 10 if you ended concentration in the round you took 10 in)
Concentrating on something else clearly implies distraction. I don't understand how you can dispute that. I don't know whether casting a spell is a distraction. That's vague.

Or I'm sonorous humming another concentration spell then I cannot take 10?
There are ways to concentrate on things without actually spending actions.

To be honest, I don't know the text of sonorous humming.

As for intention... RAW, my friend. The Int of 6 to pass the check is an interesting conclusion but still valid nevertheless.
The RAW is unambiguous. You are distracted because you are concentrating on something else and cannot take 10. You are threatened as well, though I can vaguely understand a counterargument to that.

jseah

2009-12-18, 07:40 AM

Concentrating on something else clearly implies distraction. I don't understand how you can dispute that. I don't know whether casting a spell is a distraction. That's vague.
I thought you had to concentrate to cast a spell? Huh?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#concentration

To cast a spell, you must concentrate

Besides, the text only gives combat as an example of a distraction/threat. Concentration on a spell is by no means clear whether it constitutes distraction.

Zincorium

2009-12-18, 07:43 AM

The entire argument that the wizard is threatened in the first place is based on the idea that the wizard has decided to worship a diety who threatens their life.

That's not only strange, that's utterly incomprehensible from the wizard's point of view.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 07:44 AM

I thought you had to concentrate to cast a spell? Huh?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#concentration

On rereading, this is correct. You must concentrate to cast a spell, and may therefore not take 10 on a skill check if you cast a spell during that check. If you make the check before or after casting, of course, that might be a different story.

Zincorium: if you worship someone you wouldn't force him despite his resentment to answer questions. That's not worship. And it's certainly dangerous, as noted in the text of the spell. Dangerous need not be life-threatening of course; threat of embarassment, loss of Int, etc would count.

Zincorium

2009-12-18, 08:38 AM

Tyndmyr

2009-12-18, 09:01 AM

At level 9, how frequently do your wizards devote spell slots to finding out who is stalking them? What spells do you use? How certain are you of their accuracy? Do you just take improved familiar with your 9th level feat on every wizard?

A very common scenario involves the PCs meddling in the wrong person's business, and assassins are dispatched.

At level 9, I typically use only about one COP. Enough to get a rough idea of what I'll be facing that day. Together with my standard knowledge about the campaign world, it's generally enough. Scrying, etc are used if more detailed info is needed.

In terms of defensive spells, I typically prepare about half to two thirds my spells as buffs or countermeasures. Dispel Magic is *always* prepared, for example. Likewise dimension door.

As for dealing with stunning fist/poisons, my usual defence of a persisted mirror image also handles this situation nicely. Odds are, you'll hit an image instead of me. Even if you hit me, I boost saves heavily, and stunning fist/poisons are not the toughest saves to pass. It's not a guarantee, but I've got good odds on passing enough to escape happily. Others probably use different defences, but that's what I use, because it's useful against a very wide variety of situations.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-18, 09:16 AM

Sure it does. "concentrating on something else" implies distracted.

Not according to the concentration rules. Even if it did, see the earlier mentioned sonorous hum, which takes care of concentration for you.

As for threatened, that has a very specific meaning in D&D. It's not talking about someone being annoyed at you, it's talking about being in a threatened square.

Now, I tend not to invest heavily in CoP, but that's for reasons of spells/information received, not the easily passable int check.

Emmerask

2009-12-18, 09:30 AM

As a 9th level wizard how can you have persist anything in a rap game or are we talking raw now suddenly?

Tyndmyr

2009-12-18, 09:33 AM

As a 9th level wizard how can you have persist anything in a rap game or are we talking raw now suddenly?

It's incantatrix. This is both raw, and for me, rap. I'd rather stay away from rap, though, because my character is not your character, and your game is probably different from mine. We've been talking raw all along.

Emmerask

2009-12-18, 09:38 AM

Tyndmyr

2009-12-18, 09:42 AM

Well in raw the monk has no chance whatsoever no need to discuss anything it will never see actual gameplay and remains theorycrafting and has therefore no significance on actual balance between those two classes :smallwink:

Huh? I've seen people play monks, even in my group that plays by RAW. Granted, they tend to suck unless the party wizard is buff happy with them, but in practice, people don't pick things solely based on power.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 09:44 AM

Huh? I've seen people play monks, even in my group that plays by RAW. Granted, they tend to suck unless the party wizard is buff happy with them, but in practice, people don't pick things solely based on power.

I believe he's discussing optimization differences. What most of us call PO (Practical Optimization) vs TO (Theoretical Optimization).

The assumption for most competition discussion is that PO will be used. Once people start breaking out Disjunction, and breaking the Simulacrum Gentleman's Agreement (Hint: It's DON'T USE THIS), then it reaches TO. Even in a RAW game, it's possible to avoid TO. Encouraged, even.

jseah

2009-12-18, 10:07 AM

So... Contact Other Plane, CO or TO?

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 11:16 AM

Re: Heart of Water in a grapple,

Grappling doesn't explicitly deny you the use of free actions and swift actions may be taken whenever you can do a free action, so I think that RAW is pretty clear there.

Optimystik

2009-12-18, 11:18 AM

Having some way to escape a grapple active every day is PO, plane and simple. Whether its silent Dimension Door, Heart of Water, Contingent Teleport etc. And without divinations of his own, the monk is not going to know what that is.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 11:44 AM

So... Contact Other Plane, CO or TO?

CoP is optimization.

Spamming it for days is abuse.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 11:55 AM

CoP is optimization.

Spamming it for days is abuse.

Is there a ruling on the ability to take 10 on your Int check to avoid losing your mind every time you cast CoP? Because that's the only way I see CoP spam as anything other than blitheringly stupid.

Rolling an Int check to fight off the forces of the multiverse breaking your brain doesn't seem like the sort of thing you should be able to take a 10 on.

DM: The howling void stretches before you, filling your mind with the raw mass of infinite possibility. Roll an Intelligence check to see if your mind can handle the truth.
PC Wizard: Meh, I take 10.

It seems like it should count as a threat or distraction in some way. :smallconfused:

Did one of those fools at Wizards fail to think this through and hand down a canon response?

I'd certainly never allow it in my games. You want to question a god, you get to assume a bit of risk.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 12:00 PM

Is there a ruling on the ability to take 10 on your Int check to avoid losing your mind every time you cast CoP? Because that's the only way I see CoP spam as anything other than blitheringly stupid.

Rolling an Int check to fight off the forces of the multiverse breaking your brain doesn't seem like the sort of thing you should be able to take a 10 on.

DM: The howling void stretches before you, filling your mind with the raw mass of infinite possibility. Roll an Intelligence check to see if your mind can handle the truth.
PC Wizard: Meh, I take 10.

It seems like it should count as a threat or distraction in some way. :smallconfused:

Did one of those fools at Wizards fail to think this through and hand down a canon response?

I'd certainly never allow it in my games. You want to question a god, you get to assume a bit of risk.
I agree. I've never allowed a take 10 on that check.

I've not seen canon on it, though.

Optimystik

2009-12-18, 12:01 PM

DM: The howling void stretches before you, filling your mind with the raw mass of infinite possibility. Roll an Intelligence check to see if your mind can handle the truth.
PC Wizard: Meh, I take 10.

Great, you had me burst out laughing at work and now everybody's looking at me funny :smallannoyed:

archon_huskie

2009-12-18, 12:03 PM

Yes the monk easily takes down the wizard. Just because the Wizard has access to spells does not mean that the wizard is using all them all of the time.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 12:09 PM

Yes the monk easily takes down the wizard. Just because the Wizard has access to spells does not mean that the wizard is using all them all of the time.

... great, now I can't tell if you're being silly or not.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 12:23 PM

I agree. I've never allowed a take 10 on that check.

I've not seen canon on it, though.

Because the way I figure it, a seriously optimized 9th level wizard following WBL is going to be looking at an 18 Int + 2 for Gray Elf + 3 for venerable age + 2 for level increases + 2 for a headband. So, a 27 Intelligence, or a +8 bonus.

If he can take 10, then CoP has no risk whatsoever for him, even when he's talking to greater deities.

If he can't take 10, then he can still contact up to the Astral Plane without risk (and get a 44% chance of a correct answer). It's only when he starts trying to directly communicate with gods he doesn't worship that he begins to take chances. Which is completely in keeping with the flavor of the spell.

The risk is a part of the spell. In my opinion, the risk is one of the things that makes this spell so cool. So no taking 10s.

Which makes it an idiotic thing to cast if all you want to know is whether you'll be attacked by a monk on your way to the market.

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 12:38 PM

Which makes it an idiotic thing to cast if all you want to know is whether you'll be attacked by a monk on your way to the market.That's why you have servants and fabricate spells.

Sir Giacomo

2009-12-18, 12:44 PM

... great, now I can't tell if you're being silly or not.

I do not think it is silly.

A monk has a good chance to locate the wizard due to his stealth and diplomacy skills. This means a suprise round attack is very likely.

The wizard, flat-footed, cannot cast any spells, neither swift, immediate nor any action casting time. And contingency is not yet around.
Contact other plane does not prevent the surprise round, either.
Nor will any of the other buffs help (overland flight outdone by a monk with a flying item.

With intuitive attack and WIS as main stat, the monk likely hits the flag-footed wizard except when rolling a "1". With stunning fist at level 9, the monk can
get a DC of 24 (e.g. 4 level, 6 WIS bonus, 2 ability focus, 2 ki straps). Vs the wizard's +9 save at CON 18. Does not look good for the wizard.

And after THAT, initiative is rolled, with an open outcome and possibly another stun attack.

Or is there something non-core that would help the wizard?

- Giacomo

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 12:52 PM

That's why you have servants and fabricate spells.

Which of course negates the necessity of going to market in the first place, yes.

Which only means that our monky assassin needs a new opening approach. So long as contact other plane is a nonstarter for gaining advance warning of daily threats, the monk has a distinct advantage, so long as his presence and intentions remain unknown to the wizard.

Obviously, the monk can't win in a straight fight. He needs the element of surprise in order to take this wizard down. If the wizard can't recklessly cast contact other plane, though, then the monk has a viable shot at finding a time and place to ambush the wizard effectively.

Riffington

2009-12-18, 12:55 PM

@Riffington:

That's seriously how you view all this going down?

If you aren't intentionally nerfing wizards with a specific interpretation of a rule, then you're being seriously antagonistic towards the idea of taking 10 on something.

A cleric is literally calling down bits of power from a diety. And they don't have the same issue you're saying exists. Unless you're a complete sociopath as a GM, and say that clerics always have a chance to fail when casting a spell because their diety might not want to give it to them right now.

Re: Heart of water? Not a clue. The rules on when one can/can't take these actions makes no sense to me, and I'd defer to someone else. Does grapple let you take the list of specified actions and no others? Or are there plenty of other legal actions in a grapple that are just left unspecified?

Re: taking 10? Absolutely. I don't let fighters take 10 jumping rope if the chick they're dying to impress is waving at them. I don't think it makes sense to let them. Jumping rope is easy every day of your life, until suddenly it's a stressful situation because you really like this girl and you don't want to look like an idiot. I certainly never let someone take 10 on a roll when they are putting your mind in direct mind to mind contact with an annoyed Higher Power.

I'll ask the same to you: You seriously view that whole table, that whole big paragraph, as an exercise in how to contact a minor higher plane you need an Int of at least -3 whereas in contacting the highest plane you need an Int of at least 6? Seriously?

A cleric is a whole different story. A cleric is the favored champion of a deity. The guy that has the deity's full faith and trust. He asks for Light, the deity is going to grant that request. Now, if he goes totally against the deity's ethos, different story. Heironeous might be unwilling to let you Harm some innocent orphans (or if he does let you, you might fall.) It's plausible that a spell could also fail if the deity is up to something secret, but that'd be a rare plot point.

A wizard on the other hand: he doesn't know you. He doesn't grant you a cure minor wounds just cuz you beg him. And now you thrust your mind into his, ticking him off, and the rules specify he both overwhelms you with his awesome presence and aggravation (chance to hurt) and also has a fairly high chance of straight-up lying to you. That's per the spell text, I didn't make that up. Well, you better believe I'm going to make you roll what the rules tell you to roll.

Emmerask

2009-12-18, 12:55 PM

And something more important would be how your campaign world actually works.
If its with a predetermined future then yes you may ask questions about the future and get a reasonable answer within the spells limit.

Otherwise if it´s not a predetermined future the spell wont work at all regarding questions concerning future events because every answer will be maybe and here is why:
Even the gods only know about likelihoods of certain futures to happen but the spell only allows single word answers so even if one future is 99,99999999999999% sure to happen there is the 0,0000000001 percent chance that it is not meaning you only get a maybe.

And this does not even take into account that knowledge of the future may change the future ie:
you determine from cop use that you will be attacked on your way to the market so you increase your defenses and prepare your spellbook accordingly.
The monk who is smart asks a local wizard to tell him your defenses for the day and your spells for the day (he uses x amounts of cop to determine those) now that he knows that you upped your defenses for the day he doesn´t attack you :smallbiggrin:

paradox incoming world explodes monk wins :smalltongue:

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 01:01 PM

The monk who is smart asks a local wizard to tell him your defenses for the day and your spells for the day (he uses x amounts of cop to determine those) now that he knows that you upped your defenses for the day he doesn´t attack you :smallbiggrin:
On the other hand you did just burn [a minimum] of 450gp*number of spells cast out of your WBL ... in one day for an encounter you didn't fight.

Granted this is hopefully an NPC monk-assassin we're talking about given the amount of fiat he's given, but that's hardly a cost-efficient way to run a business.

Emmerask

2009-12-18, 01:03 PM

On the other hand you did just burn [a minimum] of 450gp*number of spells cast out of your WBL ... in one day for an encounter you didn't fight.

Granted this is hopefully an NPC monk-assassin we're talking about given the amount of fiat he's given, but that's hardly a cost-efficient way to run a business.

true but the main problem is that now the god should have told you that there was no attack which then means you didn´t up your defenses which means the god should have told you there will be an attack etc ;)

destroying space and time for [a minimum] of 450gp*number of spells cast out of my WBL its quite cheap I think

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 01:09 PM

Whelp, I've played an aweful lot of wizards over the time I've been into D&D. Let's see how they would manage in this situation.

Current was level 10 then became a vampire. She'd turn to gas and escape. Alternatively, I've told my DM that she is always holding a touch based wrack, DC 32, just in case someone tries something. Monk is lying there in agony, and I knife him to death.

Arena wizard rides a flying shadow steed, because it's the fastest way to market. Bypasses the encounter.

Wizard prior to that had a cohort, who could kick a monks ass due to leadership. Since his cohort was a warforged, and was loadstone cursed, you can't really argue that they would ever be seperated.

Wizard prior to that one, was a nearly full BAB gish knife fighter, who had all of the heart of X spells just to avoid getting critted. Freedom of movement for 11 rounds due to CL buffs, and the ability to straight up beat up the monk without spells.

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 01:10 PM

true but the main problem is that now the god should have told you that there was no attack which then means you didn´t up your defenses which means the god should have told you there will be an attack etc ;)

destroying space and time for [a minimum] of 450gp*number of spells cast out of my WBL its quite cheap I think... or you could just assume the god was lying and/or didn't know for certain. Predictions are mutable and gods in D&D are hardly omniscient. Besides, From a certain point of view (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FromACertainPointOfView), the attack happened, you just fended it off without direct conflict.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 01:15 PM

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 01:20 PM

Where does this wizard live? If it's in a bustling city, then I don't see any reason why the monk can't just blend with the populace and do recon on the wizard until he's determined a plan of attack. Dressed in simple peasant's gear (he won't need his magic items until it's time to strike, so he can leave them at home), he's just one more face in a crown of hundreds.

Without CoP, the wizard doesn't have any ability to know that he's being marked for assassination (no other spell in a 9th level wizard's repetoire could possibly grant that knowledge). The monk has time to formulate a plan.

Can any plan possibly succeed? Well that's the question, ain't it? I suppose it depends on the wizard's routine. A routine makes you safe, but it also makes you predictable. Nobody ever thinks of everything.
The hypothetical situation that Riffington put this in said that ~9th is the highest people achieve, and when you achieve that sort of pinnacle of power in a world you have a certain level of fame/infamy. There will be people after your life for money/prestige/revenge/whatnot constantly, so as I said earlier, you either have a base of operations of sorts, ruler/guildleader/whatever, or you've become extremely skilled at hiding your identity/being paranoid.

Are either of these innately enough to stop a dedicated assassin? History says no, but they make fiating the situation that much more improbable.

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 01:21 PM

Where does this wizard live? If it's in a bustling city, then I don't see any reason why the monk can't just blend with the populace and do recon on the wizard until he's determined a plan of attack. Dressed in simple peasant's gear (he won't need his magic items until it's time to strike, so he can leave them at home), he's just one more face in a crown of hundreds.

Without CoP, the wizard doesn't have any ability to know that he's being marked for assassination (no other spell in a 9th level wizard's repetoire could possibly grant that knowledge). The monk has time to formulate a plan.

Can any plan possibly succeed? Well that's the question, ain't it? I suppose it depends on the wizard's routine. A routine makes you safe, but it also makes you predictable. Nobody ever thinks of everything.

Detect thoughts has a strong possibility of working on telling him he's marked for assassination actually. Not likely to be used due to the amount of time you'd have to be staring at the guy. If the monk doesn't have particularly good bluff, one time, he's likely to be suspected, which can prompt detect thoughts.

Arcane sight also will alert you to a magically buffed individual with offensive magic items heading your way from beyond a monks charge range in a crowd. Which should prompt you to be, at the very least, careful. This spell is typically permenant on my wizards.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 01:26 PM

The hypothetical situation that Riffington put this in said that ~9th is the highest people achieve, and when you achieve that sort of pinnacle of power in a world you have a certain level of fame/infamy. There will be people after your life for money/prestige/revenge/whatnot constantly, so as I said earlier, you either have a base of operations of sorts, ruler/guildleader/whatever, or you've become extremely skilled at hiding your identity/being paranoid.

Are either of these innately enough to stop a dedicated assassin? History says no, but they make fiating the situation that much more improbable.

Oh, by all means, but if sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, then our would-be assassin is in a similar position of power within his respective organization. He has a network of contacts who can feed him information, access to a whole host of interesting bits of magical gear (all within WBL limits, of course), and an alternate identity or three of his own.

Fair is fair, after all.

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 01:36 PM

Oh, by all means, but if sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, then our would-be assassin is in a similar position of power within his respective organization. He has a network of contacts who can feed him information, access to a whole host of interesting bits of magical gear (all within WBL limits, of course), and an alternate identity or three of his own.

Fair is fair, after all.Presumably he has similar infamy and support yes. Unfortunately, in this particular case, that does detract somewhat from his ability to sneak up on said wizard, since he'd then become a more prime target to keep tabs on by said wizard, as he would constitute one of the major threats to his life, assuming of course that said hypothetical monk is actually an assassin of sorts and isn't doing this for various and sundry other reasons which have not been revealed to us.

In short, in a land where 9th is the highest, being 9th level isn't a great thing for an assassin, insofar as sneaking up on your similarly leveled magic-wielding compatriots goes. If the bar was set a bit higher, then you'd no longer be the pinnacle of assassins and thus that much more likely to sneak under the radar of paranoia.

Sir Giacomo

2009-12-18, 01:37 PM

Arcane sight also will alert you to a magically buffed individual with offensive magic items heading your way from beyond a monks charge range in a crowd. Which should prompt you to be, at the very least, careful. This spell is typically permenant on my wizards.

That is actually a very good idea! Not that it would help vs a hiding monk, but it would definitely make the disguise/merge with crowd approach nigh ineffective (or the monk just tries without any items...)

The phantom steed is also quite good-but will the wizard always be in the saddle?

- Giacomo

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 01:41 PM

That is actually a very good idea! Not that it would help vs a hiding monk, but it would definitely make the disguise/merge with crowd approach nigh ineffective (or the monk just tries without any items...)

The phantom steed is also quite good-but will the wizard always be in the saddle?

- Giacomo

No, he won't be when he's literally in his home, nor in the market, but one assumes that a wizard is A) a rich individual in the city, B) likes being a regular customer to a single market, and C) is one of the market owners primary source of income. So I'd expect the ambush, if it takes place at all, to require the mob tactics rules of other regular customers and the shop owner to jump the monk and drag him off the wizard. A half dozen commoners using mob tactics can actually pretty easily get a monk off of another guy, as most of those rules are buffs to things like grapple and bullsrush.

That aside, hide does nothing to prevent any spell that detects magical auras from working. The wizard simply wouldn't know where it was coming from.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 01:42 PM

Presumably he has similar infamy and support yes. Unfortunately, in this particular case, that does detract somewhat from his ability to sneak up on said wizard, since he'd then become a more prime target to keep tabs on by said wizard, as he would constitute one of the major threats to his life, assuming of course that said hypothetical monk is actually an assassin of sorts and isn't doing this for various and sundry other reasons which have not been revealed to us.

In short, in a land where 9th is the highest, being 9th level isn't a great thing for an assassin, insofar as sneaking up on your similarly leveled magic-wielding compatriots goes. If the bar was set a bit higher, then you'd no longer be the pinnacle of assassins and thus that much more likely to sneak under the radar of paranoia.

Except that a good assassin would take pains to preserve his anonimity. He may become infamous as a bogeyman, but that isn't quite the same thing.

He's a ghost, a phantom, the Jackal.

If the wizard gets to begin the scenario in a Panglossian set of circumstances, then it seems only fair to afford our monk the same courtesy.

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 01:46 PM

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 01:47 PM

Except that a good assassin would take pains to preserve his anonimity. He may become infamous as a bogeyman, but that isn't quite the same thing.

He's a ghost, a phantom, the Jackal.

If the wizard gets to begin the scenario in a Panglossian set of circumstances, then it seems only fair to afford our monk the same courtesy.
Well, our monk is beginning the scenario with 6 caveats to his favor, so we should grant the wizard similar things, negating his 6, neh?

That aside, the main point was that when we realize that you represent a tier of power that's relatively high, your defenses are that much higher in relative terms, than they would be otherwise, simply because you stand out. A typical adventuring wizard from greyhawk or faerun or other standard-esque world would be a much easier mark than our hypothetical 9th level wizard in the land of E9ish.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 01:49 PM

Detect thoughts has a strong possibility of working on telling him he's marked for assassination actually. Not likely to be used due to the amount of time you'd have to be staring at the guy. If the monk doesn't have particularly good bluff, one time, he's likely to be suspected, which can prompt detect thoughts.

Arcane sight also will alert you to a magically buffed individual with offensive magic items heading your way from beyond a monks charge range in a crowd. Which should prompt you to be, at the very least, careful. This spell is typically permenant on my wizards.

Arcane sight isn't available for permanency at 9th level, so it's a nonstarter.

Detect thoughts has almost no chance of revealing an assassin in a crowd. How suspicious does the wizard need to be before he decides to burn a spell and start staring? If the assassin is even a little bit careful, he can safely watch the wizard in almost any public setting, especially at 9th level.

The actual attack is the tough part. The monk needs a place where he can get into melee range with a partial charge and land a Stunning Fist that the wizard won't save against. He only gets one chance to make it work. If he can pull it off, he stunlocks the wizard into oblivion. If he can't, then there's no other viable tactic available to him.

Sir Giacomo

2009-12-18, 01:50 PM

No, he won't be when he's literally in his home, nor in the market, but one assumes that a wizard is A) a rich individual in the city, B) likes being a regular customer to a single market, and C) is one of the market owners primary source of income. So I'd expect the ambush, if it takes place at all, to require the mob tactics rules of other regular customers and the shop owner to jump the monk and drag him off the wizard. A half dozen commoners using mob tactics can actually pretty easily get a monk off of another guy, as most of those rules are buffs to things like grapple and bullsrush.

That aside, hide does nothing to prevent any spell that detects magical auras from working. The wizard simply wouldn't know where it was coming from.

Hm, maybe a DM would rule it likely that traders will risk their lives for a very charismatic and popular wizard. But none of his class abilities grant it at level 9.

Also, arcane sight reveals nothing when you do not have line of sight (see the spell description).

- Giacomo

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 01:50 PM

Well, our monk is beginning the scenario with 6 caveats to his favor, so we should grant the wizard similar things, negating his 6, neh?

What are the six distinct advantages you're giving the monk? I'll counter with a similar list that I see the wizard possessing already.

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 01:55 PM

Arcane sight isn't available for permanency at 9th level, so it's a nonstarter.

It's not available at caster level 9. You can get caster level 11 or higher which lets you apply permanency to the spell, even if you're only ECL 9.

Detect thoughts has almost no chance of revealing an assassin in a crowd. How suspicious does the wizard need to be before he decides to burn a spell and start staring? If the assassin is even a little bit careful, he can safely watch the wizard in almost any public setting, especially at 9th level.

Each event of stalking the wizard is an opposed roll of bluff against spot (two spots if the wizard has a familiar). In this event, you are going to fail eventually, prompting him to use detect thoughts the next time he's out. (or, if he's properly intelligent, he walks into a dark alley and when you try to stalk him in there, you get dominated, reveal all of your information, and are killed)

The actual attack is the tough part. The monk needs a place where he can get into melee range with a partial charge and land a Stunning Fist that the wizard won't save against. He only gets one chance to make it work. If he can pull it off, he stunlocks the wizard into oblivion. If he can't, then there's no other viable tactic available to him.

That's a lotta luck that you're requiring there. Most of my wizards, even with the numbers you gave can avoid a complete stunlock chain.

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 01:56 PM

Hm, maybe a DM would rule it likely that traders will risk their lives for a very charismatic and popular wizard. But none of his class abilities grant it at level 9.

Also, arcane sight reveals nothing when you do not have line of sight (see the spell description).

- Giacomo

Yes, however, the monk is assuming situational background aspects completely unrelated to class. One assumes that the merchant would prefer keeping one of his richest customers alive if possible.

Of course, the alternative caveat is that that same caster build brings his planar bounds with him, which could beat up the monk anyway.

Sir Giacomo

2009-12-18, 01:57 PM

Well, our monk is beginning the scenario with 6 caveats to his favor, so we should grant the wizard similar things, negating his 6, neh?
.

What are the 6 caveats?

- Giacomo

Kylarra

2009-12-18, 01:58 PM

What are the six distinct advantages you're giving the monk? I'll counter with a similar list that I see the wizard possessing already.
The original claim is that the monk can kill the wizard if
-Silence is up
-Monk has successfully snuck up
-Monk has successfully grappled
-Wizard is alone
-Monk knows where the wizard is
-Wizard is unaware of monk's desire to kill him

In order of actual usefulness, 2-4 are what matter. 1,5,6 aren't terribly implausible for an assassin to have so I don't really mind granting those, provided 6 means that we're talking about a specific monk and not that the wizard is in lala land unaware of assassins in general.

I'll reiterate since you quoted before I finished editing my post, my main contention was not that the wizard should be granted advantages that the monk doesn't have, but that the setting they are placed in, makes higher defenses and paranoia a far more warranted thing and thus the monk getting into said situation is much more improbable, as well as making sense for the wizard to have more countermeasures than the standard adventuring wizard.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 02:07 PM

It's not available at caster level 9. You can get caster level 11 or higher which lets you apply permanency to the spell, even if you're only ECL 9.

Where are you getting 2 extra caster levels at ECL 9? I'm not saying you can't, only that I don't know the trick.

Each event of stalking the wizard is an opposed roll of bluff against spot (two spots if the wizard has a familiar). In this event, you are going to fail eventually, prompting him to use detect thoughts the next time he's out.

I'd say you're looking at either Hide vs. Spot, or Bluff vs. Sense Motive. Or possibly the one followed by the other. The fact, unfortunately, is that 3.5 D&D doesn't really have any explicit rules for blending into a crowd effectively, but Bluff certainly doesn't come into play until the wizard has noticed the monk in the first place. Also take into account that Spot has a -1 penalty for every 10 feet of distance. Hide and Spot are both class skills for monks, but not for wizards. If the monk keeps his distance, he's very unlikely to be spotted if all he's doing today is watching. He doesn't need to get within 60 ft. until he's ready to strike.

That's a lotta luck that you're requiring there. Most of my wizards, even with the numbers you gave can avoid a complete stunlock chain.

What kind of Fort save are you talking about here, and how'd you get it?

Emmerask

2009-12-18, 02:08 PM

Each event of stalking the wizard is an opposed roll of bluff against spot (two spots if the wizard has a familiar). In this event, you are going to fail eventually, prompting him to use detect thoughts the next time he's out.

Hmm I would not do it that way.
First the assassin gets his disguise check depending on that he gets a bonus on the bluff perhaps 1/2 his disguise.
After that the wizard would need to spot the assassin in the crowd spot check with some penalty because it is in a crowd of people.
After that a sense motive check vs the assassins bluff again with a huge bonus on the bluff.

The only way I see the assassin failing all of this is with a 1^^

In your scenario the wizard suspects an attack and knows the attacker which he should not

Roupe

2009-12-18, 02:15 PM

So the Monk killed the Wizard, or the Wizard killed the Monk.
But they had diciples, students or classmates. A vengance could be a result

Its my opinion that a vengefull school of Wizards are a greater threat, than a vengefull school of monks -if pitted against each other.

The Glyphstone

2009-12-18, 02:21 PM

Hmm I would not do it that way.
First the assassin gets his disguise check depending on that he gets a bonus on the bluff perhaps 1/2 his disguise.
After that the wizard would need to spot the assassin in the crowd spot check with some penalty because it is in a crowd of people.
After that a sense motive check vs the assassins bluff again with a huge bonus on the bluff.

The only way I see the assassin failing all of this is with a 1^^

In your scenario the wizard suspects an attack and knows the attacker which he should not

That's fiat though, going completely against the rules for the aforementioned skill checks. The most Abe the Assassin can get is a +2 synergy bonus to Bluff from acting in character with his disguise. There's no penalty to Spot for picking someone out in a crowd, any more than there is a bonus to Spot if they're alone. And lastly, just an arbitrary bonus to the assassin's bluff without even giving a justification for it? That's really stacking the deck against Wilbur the Wizard here.

Twilight Jack

2009-12-18, 02:30 PM

The original claim is that the monk can kill the wizard if
-Silence is up
-Monk has successfully snuck up
-Monk has successfully grappled
-Wizard is alone
-Monk knows where the wizard is
-Wizard is unaware of monk's desire to kill him

In order of actual usefulness, 2-4 are what matter. 1,5,6 aren't terribly implausible for an assassin to have so I don't really mind granting those, provided 6 means that we're talking about a specific monk and not that the wizard is in lala land unaware of assassins in general.

I'll reiterate since you quoted before I finished editing my post, my main contention was not that the wizard should be granted advantages that the monk doesn't have, but that the setting they are placed in, makes higher defenses and paranoia a far more warranted thing and thus the monk getting into said situation is much more improbable, as well as making sense for the wizard to have more countermeasures than the standard adventuring wizard.

Ah. I understand now. Let me address each individually. I'm going to change the order somewhat, so that my thoughts flow logically.

Silence: Eh, it's useful, but I could take it or leave it. The biggest problem with casting silence on yourself and then trying to move into the wizard's space is that an argument immediately ensues as to whether the wizard should get a save to avoid being affected by it.

Successfully grappled: I don't think a grapple is the best course of action here, so I'm looking at other options. A decently prepared wizard just has too many options to escape a grapple at ECL 9, trying to prevent each one of them is a ridiculous strategy. I just don't see any way a monk could reliably hold on for long enough to finish the wizard off.

Monk knows where to find the wizard: I agree that this is an assumption that I've ignored previously. I've been operating from the premise that the wizard is some sort of high public official or some such. If he's at the pinnacle of power for the world, it just stands to reason.

Wizard is unaware of the monk and his intentions: Well, he'd have to be. You get no argument from me that the monk has no prayer of coming out on top in a direct confrontation. So this thought experiment is worthless if the monk doesn't have a mantle of anonimity to start out the scenario.

Wizard is alone: If we grant the monk anonimity, then the monk has the luxury of choosing the time and place of his assault, within the strictures of the times and places the wizard can be found. I'm assuming the monk doesn't try for the assassination the moment he locates the wizard, but sets up a week or two of recon first, casing the wizard's residence (a heavily guarded and warded fortress, by my reckoning) and learning the times and circumstances under which the wizard emerges from it. Thus far, because the scenario is monk vs. wizard, I've not taken bodyguards into account, unless they are class features of the wizard. Perhaps we should agree on a reasonable level of protection for the wizard to have, and on the protocols for those bodyguards.

Monk has successfully gotten close enough without being detected: This is not an assumption I'm making. This, in fact, is the first problem of any workable plan. I'm assuming that the monk needs to get within 60 ft. of the wizard, with a clear path for a charge, and remain undetected. Alternately, he needs to get adjacent without being detected. The monk absolutely must get off a Stunning Fist in the surprise round to have any hope of winning. If the wizard gets an action, the monk loses. It's that simple. He can't trust to merely winning initiative, as MAD ensures that the monk is unlikely to have the higher Dex and the wizard is every bit as likely to have Improved Initiative as the monk is.

Emmerask

2009-12-18, 02:33 PM

That's fiat though, going completely against the rules for the aforementioned skill checks. The most Abe the Assassin can get is a +2 synergy bonus to Bluff from acting in character with his disguise. There's no penalty to Spot for picking someone out in a crowd, any more than there is a bonus to Spot if they're alone. And lastly, just an arbitrary bonus to the assassin's bluff without even giving a justification for it? That's really stacking the deck against Wilbur the Wizard here.

Well only because there are no rules for that special circumstance doesn´t mean there shouldn´t be any. And its understandable you can´t put ALL rules for anything that might come up into a book.

In such cases common sense should be used:
Is it harder to spot someone in a crowd of 400 people then someone who stands alone on a hill? The answer is yes so you increase the difficulty of the check :smallwink: it has nothing to do with dm fiat just with rap :smallwink:

edit: you could of course just give each person that stands between the wizard and the monk a % chance of blocking view alltogether then roll your 20d100 and declare that at that moment nothing suspicious was in view :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr

2009-12-18, 02:39 PM

I do not think it is silly.

A monk has a good chance to locate the wizard due to his stealth and diplomacy skills. This means a suprise round attack is very likely.

That's not what those skills do.

The wizard, flat-footed, cannot cast any spells, neither swift, immediate nor any action casting time. And contingency is not yet around.
Contact other plane does not prevent the surprise round, either.
Nor will any of the other buffs help (overland flight outdone by a monk with a flying item.

You have to get to him, yknow. Stealthily.

How precisely do you intend to hide while flying at him through the sky?

With intuitive attack and WIS as main stat, the monk likely hits the flag-footed wizard except when rolling a "1". With stunning fist at level 9, the monk can
get a DC of 24 (e.g. 4 level, 6 WIS bonus, 2 ability focus, 2 ki straps). Vs the wizard's +9 save at CON 18. Does not look good for the wizard.

So, a highly optimized stunning fist attack vs an unbuffed fort save. Why would the wizard not have resistance up? Given that it can be permanencied inexpensively, within core. Also, see con/fort boosters, which are possible.

Also, armor boosters and miss chances are ridiculously common, both of which drastically reduce chance of hitting.

Even without these, though, you have a significant chance of failure, and failure means death. Success at stunning does not guarantee a win.

And after THAT, initiative is rolled, with an open outcome and possibly another stun attack.

So, how many stun attacks do you need to make before victory? And if you're wisdom based, the wizard has a significantly higher chance of beating you on init.

Or is there something non-core that would help the wizard?

Lol. Yes.

Milskidasith

2009-12-18, 02:49 PM

The wizard has Mirror Image and Heart of Water up. The wizard has a decent chance of winning initiative. If the wizard wins initiative, Heart of Water becomes FoM and the monk loses. Stuns and grappling fail, so all he has is some mediocre attacks. If the wizard loses, then the monk has a 1 in 8 chance of hitting the wizard, and if he hits he has a decent, but not amazing, chance of stunning the wizard, if he doesn't have stun immunity from another source.

Also, if the wizard takes double moves everywhere, and carries a bright light (not hard, seeing as a near permanent spell that can be as bright as you want costs pennies on the dollar) the monk can't hide (without a certain form of HiPS), and takes a -20 penalty on hiding anyway. Not good for the monk, even with classed skill ranks at level 9.

Mushroom Ninja

2009-12-18, 03:03 PM

The wizard has Mirror Image and Heart of Water up.

Mirror Image has a duration of min/level. Unless the wizard knows that he/she is about to be attacked (and, for the monk to stand a chance, he/she would have to not know), it's unlikely that he/she'll have mirror image running.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 03:07 PM

A monk has a good chance to locate the wizard due to his stealth and diplomacy skills. This means a suprise round attack is very likely.

The wizard, flat-footed, cannot cast any spells, neither swift, immediate nor any action casting time. And contingency is not yet around.
Contact other plane does not prevent the surprise round, either.
Nor will any of the other buffs help (overland flight outdone by a monk with a flying item.

Incorrect. When the monk is trying to locate the wizard, there is one (and only one) skill, by RAW, that would allow the monk to Gather that Information. I've left a hint here.

Diplomacy will make a person like you, but without gather information? Well, a level 1 commoner, or a level 3 noble will have a rather low chance to get the knowledge check needed.

So, with Diplomacy, it can be safely assumed that you'll likely get a bunch of people liking you... that don't know the information. Why? Because Gather Information covers gathering information.

And that is cross-class.

Now: Let's assume that the wizard has a guard in the keep. After all, it's fair to assume that the wizard's of some notoriety, which is why the monk even knows he's gotta die. If he's the ruler of the keep, and he's intelligent, it makes sense to have a 24 hour guard, a few look alikes, and guards all over. Guards at the ends of hallways, with guards watching them.

Whether the monk's hide check is 7 or 700, if he has no cover, he cannot hide. If he starts doing wonky things with the hallway, such as smoke, that's a sign of intrusion.

In short? A decent hide skill alone will not suffice to sneak into a keep. Gather Information and Disguise would help, granted. Not strong skills for the monk.

Even so, if the monk is using diplomacy, gather information, and the like, people hear about it. Doing so at any sort of rate at all will destroy the monk's anonymity.

Now? The conditions for not being surprised? Being aware of the attack. Whether that's via spot, listen, or an accurate enough divination? Being aware is being aware. COP is not likely to get that level of accuracy, but it is possible.

If escape is needed?

Dimension Door through a Keep wall. Better yet, there's any of 30 hallways and 40 rooms on 3 floors that the wizard can dimdoor to.

In other words, 1 attempt is all you get. And, without Gather information as a class skill, let's assume, to successfully get surprise, the monk has to:

1) Negotiate hallways without the benefit of cover/concealment, and evade detection.

2) Deduce which of the several look-alike wizards is the correct one.

3) Deduce where the wizard actually is. After all, he could be in another keep, giving orders via magic communication.

4) Evade divination (for 100% odds)

5) Use a surprise round AND a won initiative to establish a stun, which the wizard must fail the save on.

6) During that surprise round, get through a potential wall of level 1 mooks adjacent to the wizard.

Note: It is EXCEEDINGLY difficult, via hide rules, to approach within 10 feet of someone, and still have the cover or concealment necessary to hide.

Also note: If the battle takes to the air, it is exceedingly difficult for the monk to match the wizard once a single Dispel Magic is cast.

These are several of the potential complications that a monk has, infiltrating a keep.

Bear in mind, if the monk gets storyline advantages (initial anonymity, not being hunted) from his position and station), the wizard is entitled to the same. And "ruler of a keep" has several.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-18, 03:14 PM

Mirror Image has a duration of min/level. Unless the wizard knows that he/she is about to be attacked (and, for the monk to stand a chance, he/she would have to not know), it's unlikely that he/she'll have mirror image running.

Already covered. It's personal, and thus eligible for persist. I do this routinely on my ECL 9 wizard/incantatrix. Boom, mirror image 24/7.

It's hardly the only spell that grants miss chances, too...just one of the nicer core ones that gets used a lot.

Frankly, monk is a poor choice as an assassin even at ECL 9. Stick with a caster or a rogue/prc build. It's not only more thematic, it's a lot more mechanically likely.

Mushroom Ninja

2009-12-18, 03:16 PM

Already covered. It's personal, and thus eligible for persist. I do this routinely on my ECL 9 wizard/incantatrix. Boom, mirror image 24/7.

That would take care of it. I had figured that this was questioning straight-classed monk vs. straight-classed wizard, though.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-18, 03:30 PM

That would take care of it. I had figured that this was questioning straight-classed monk vs. straight-classed wizard, though.

Not specifically. I believe it's fairly open ended. I mean, people have been suggesting monk scroll usage and contact poisons. I don't think it's limited to routine class abilities, just whatever is accessible.

Mushroom Ninja

2009-12-18, 03:32 PM

Not specifically. I believe it's fairly open ended. I mean, people have been suggesting monk scroll usage and contact poisons. I don't think it's limited to routine class abilities, just whatever is accessible.

Fair enough.

Keld Denar

2009-12-18, 03:56 PM

Obligatory link is obligatory. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)

There a crime fighting duo, do do nah do dooooo yea!!!!!

Geddoe

2009-12-18, 05:37 PM

A major problem the monk has, is that the wizard having the entire heart of (blank) line up renders him immune to crits, which means stunning fist always fails.

JonestheSpy

2009-12-18, 06:20 PM

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-18, 06:29 PM

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 07:04 PM

Where are you getting 2 extra caster levels at ECL 9? I'm not saying you can't, only that I don't know the trick.

There is a spell that increases it by one as a second level spell called create magic tattoo IIRC, and a magic ring that increases it by 1 for 20K. If I walk into a shop, ask if I may try it on, cast permanency and hand it back, I can do that for free. Or the ring of arcane might and an orange ioun stone. I can also drink Terran Brandy, though that would make me rather unpopular, or a ton of other options. There's a list in character op of things that increase caster level that I'll look up later to link to.

Edit: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level

In this case, ambrosia is probably the most appropriate.

I'd say you're looking at either Hide vs. Spot, or Bluff vs. Sense Motive. Or possibly the one followed by the other. The fact, unfortunately, is that 3.5 D&D doesn't really have any explicit rules for blending into a crowd effectively, but Bluff certainly doesn't come into play until the wizard has noticed the monk in the first place. Also take into account that Spot has a -1 penalty for every 10 feet of distance. Hide and Spot are both class skills for monks, but not for wizards. If the monk keeps his distance, he's very unlikely to be spotted if all he's doing today is watching. He doesn't need to get within 60 ft. until he's ready to strike.

The rules state that the tailing person must have cover or concealment at all times, and the person being followed gets one every 10 minutes. If you lose cover/concealment even once, the wizard sees you, no roll. So you are going to be seen if the wizard is going somewhere, it's simply inevitable. If you get seen, you get an opposed bluff once every ten minutes to avoid being noticed. These are in the skill section of complete adventurer, and unfortunately, make is almost impossible to tail anyone in practice.

What kind of Fort save are you talking about here, and how'd you get it?

One that's enough to pass the required fortitude save before you can actually kill me, since I'd have to fail, probably 2 consecutive saves, if you have no magical gear. At level 9, I usually have a +9 fortitude, since con is a high stat for wizards, and cloaks of resistance are cheap.

Mushroom Ninja

2009-12-18, 07:09 PM

Obligatory link is obligatory. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)

There a crime fighting duo, do do nah do dooooo yea!!!!!

Well said sir, well said. Please report to the ministry of awesome to receive your internet.

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 07:15 PM

Wizard is alone: If we grant the monk anonimity, then the monk has the luxury of choosing the time and place of his assault, within the strictures of the times and places the wizard can be found. I'm assuming the monk doesn't try for the assassination the moment he locates the wizard, but sets up a week or two of recon first, casing the wizard's residence (a heavily guarded and warded fortress, by my reckoning) and learning the times and circumstances under which the wizard emerges from it. Thus far, because the scenario is monk vs. wizard, I've not taken bodyguards into account, unless they are class features of the wizard. Perhaps we should agree on a reasonable level of protection for the wizard to have, and on the protocols for those bodyguards.

If he is a high paragon of magic, he should have four level 2-3 fighter hirelings that most relevantly all have reach weapons, combat reflexes, good karma and stand around him in a diamond formation. It now becomes impossible to hit the wizard on a surprise round from any side, and ambushes that are not magical in nature outright fail. Any others, are countered by the wizard's ability to detect any magical shenanigans out to 120 feet. Pretty much the only thing that will get him now, is another wizard.

I don't think those feats, and that level is totally unreasonable for a bodyguard of the most powerful and influential arcanist in the city. I think the remaining feats should be in improved unarmed strike and grapple, so that they can apprehend the attacker where possible by piling on him.

Would you consider this a reasonable bodyguard for someone both important and well known enough to be well studied by a monk with no gather information capabilities?

Kurald Galain

2009-12-18, 08:05 PM

Even without involving magic, this exercise is still about a straightforward martialist like Eddard Stark trying to take down a highly cunning and intelligent adversary like Petyr Baelish. And we all know how that one turned out...

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-18, 08:09 PM

If he is a high paragon of magic, he should have four level 2-3 fighter hirelings that most relevantly all have reach weapons, combat reflexes, good karma and stand around him in a diamond formation. It now becomes impossible to hit the wizard on a surprise round from any side, and ambushes that are not magical in nature outright fail. Any others, are countered by the wizard's ability to detect any magical shenanigans out to 120 feet. Pretty much the only thing that will get him now, is another wizard.

I don't think those feats, and that level is totally unreasonable for a bodyguard of the most powerful and influential arcanist in the city. I think the remaining feats should be in improved unarmed strike and grapple, so that they can apprehend the attacker where possible by piling on him.

Would you consider this a reasonable bodyguard for someone both important and well known enough to be well studied by a monk with no gather information capabilities?
Ah, but the monk will obviously counter by sending hirelings to soak up the bodyguard's AoO's!

And he'll have plenty of money to spend on hirelings because he doesn't have to send as much of his wealth on items unlike the wizard!

Lolololol!

Foryn Gilnith

2009-12-18, 08:15 PM

Can a monk assassin beat a wizard? Very possibly; we're still arguing about it.
Does the monk-assassin win because he's a monk, or because he works like an assassin? I think the "assassin" part does most of the heavy lifting, although the monk's stunning fist helps matters somewhat.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-18, 08:17 PM

Kurald Galain

2009-12-18, 08:24 PM

Having given the matter some thought, I must conclude that regardless of whether his target is a wizard or not, sending a monk as an assassin is simply laughable. The monk has mediocre combat skills, mediocre location skills, and mediocre stealth skills. Assuming an official figure of 9th level of whichever class, the odds of the monk accomplishing his mission are abysmal.

For instance - a 9th level fighter as the lord of his castle. Okay, the monk can probably find him and the fighter isn't too good at spotting the monk. But then what? Grappling a fighter is a bad idea. Entering melee combat is a worse idea. Stunning fist is likely blocked by the fighter's good fort save, and the guy has way more hit points than the monk anyway.

A 9th level rogue as magistrate of a thieves guild is a highly elusive target. It more than likely beats the monk at both detection and stealth (and, in case it matters, at UMD) and any decent rogue has a trick or two to escape grapples. Monk scores zero out of three. The same pretty much applies to the bard, who will likely be aware of the monk through his social network before the monk is done making gather info checks.

A 9th level druid in his grove? He's surrounded by a bunch of scent-using animals, and may in fact be any one of those. Good luck finding that. If the monk grapples the druid, the companion bear grapples him. And that's before considering druidic magic.

Unless the target is an NPC aristocrat, commoner, or something else with no plausible class abilities, the monk is simply a complete failure as an assassin. If you want an official dead, send in the rogue, or the druid, or the wizard, or the bard. Don't use a monk except on april fools.

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 10:58 PM

Ah, but the monk will obviously counter by sending hirelings to soak up the bodyguard's AoO's!

And he'll have plenty of money to spend on hirelings because he doesn't have to send as much of his wealth on items unlike the wizard!

Lolololol!

The irony here is that the monk still wouldn't get to kill the wizard thanks to good karma.

Flickerdart

2009-12-18, 11:02 PM

I think the real question is: at 9th level, can a Monk successfully locate and assassinate a Monk?

Yukitsu

2009-12-18, 11:09 PM

That depends. Does a slap fight constitute an assassination attempt?

Tyndmyr

2009-12-19, 01:11 AM

Well, if there's one thing this thread reveals, it's that wizards seem so dominant because they have so much more cheesey splatbook silliness written for them than other classes.

Incantatrix, for instance is barely unbroken when you take into account the high DC to use feats like Persist (which is a pretty ridiculous feat in and of itself) - then they throw in all these cheap gadgets like spellcraft tools and competence items to boost your ability to ridiculous levels.

Sorry, in my opinion any DM who allows such things should just get "Doormat" tatooed on their forehead.

My level 9 incantatrix has a +25 spellcraft without either competence items or spellcraft tools. Yes, they are available in my campaign, but hey, look at it this way. Not only did I have to blow a feat on Iron Will to get into incantatrix, AND ban a school, I had to spend two feats on extend and persist spell, as well as another on Skill Focus:Spellcraft. That's a grand total of four feats and a school expended to pull off this. It's powerful, yes, but it's certainly not free.

Wizards are not unbalanced due to splatbooks, btw. The vast majority of the spells I use are in core. If we went to a core only game...I'd take loremaster instead of incantatrix. I'd lose a few handy spells, but the possible enemy pool would shrink drastically. Everyone else in the party would drastically weaken, save for the other full casters. Me and the druid would likely dominate, with the cleric a bit behind(he managed to have crap AC somehow). The barbarian and rogues would suffer a fair bit, as would the blackguard. Mostly due to itemization.

taltamir

2009-12-19, 02:29 AM

I see a lot of people keep on referring to "stilled dimension door"

Dimension door:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensiondoor.htm

has only a verbal component, no somatic or material component required. You cannot still it because there is nothing to still.

A silenced dimension door has no components, at all. You simple "think hard" and it happens.

Myrmex

2009-12-19, 04:41 AM

At level 9, I typically use only about one COP. Enough to get a rough idea of what I'll be facing that day. Together with my standard knowledge about the campaign world, it's generally enough. Scrying, etc are used if more detailed info is needed.

In terms of defensive spells, I typically prepare about half to two thirds my spells as buffs or countermeasures. Dispel Magic is *always* prepared, for example. Likewise dimension door.

You use one/day? Yikes. How do you handle the loss of casting for a week, or weeks?

I guess you can contact the Astral plane for a useful tidbit of information that is useless 56% of the time. And losing that fifth level spell slot every day... ouch. Are you generalist elf?

As for dealing with stunning fist/poisons, my usual defence of a persisted mirror image also handles this situation nicely. Odds are, you'll hit an image instead of me. Even if you hit me, I boost saves heavily, and stunning fist/poisons are not the toughest saves to pass. It's not a guarantee, but I've got good odds on passing enough to escape happily. Others probably use different defences, but that's what I use, because it's useful against a very wide variety of situations.

If you have more than one image, the opponent can just shut his eyes. But then, as long as you're abusing persistent spell, you win. I'm not debating that. Casters with persistent spell virtually always win. You just can't beat that level of cheese.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-19, 05:41 AM

You use one/day? Yikes. How do you handle the loss of casting for a week, or weeks?

It's fairly easy to avoid that problem, if you're smart.

Myrmex

2009-12-19, 05:44 AM

It's fairly easy to avoid that problem, if you're smart.

At higher levels, sure. But level nine? How much int you got? 26? You can't reliably hit the DCs for anything above Astral.

mostlyharmful

2009-12-19, 05:52 AM

It's pretty much down to this, wizards get the ability to selectively ignore parts of the game mechanics, recruit minions far above their own CR level, extract information from the ether, bounce around the strategic and tactical levels of an encounter and one-shot-cripple just about anything that comes up to them.

Monks get to be really good at playing patticake. That's about it. At level ( a Barb with boots of speed does most everything they can do but better. A rogue just flat is better and they both still lose to full casters.

Oh, and I like the Anklets of Translocation for an immediate exit 2/day item that's so cheap any caster should have them within 9 levels. By-by full attacks, grapples, SAs, Orbs and whatever you like.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-19, 07:34 AM

At higher levels, sure. But level nine? How much int you got? 26? You can't reliably hit the DCs for anything above Astral.

How cheesy do you want the answer to your question to be?

The least cheesy involves the use of items that boost Int checks and Marshals.

Sir Giacomo

2009-12-19, 07:59 AM

Well, looking at how the discussion goes, I think that the many non-core possibilities (heart spells or whatever they are called, persisted spells etc) make the wizard much harder to get for a monk than just using the core rules.

In a core rules environment, a monk can be a good assassin (he even easily meets the requirements for the assassin prestige class!) as well as spy, there is no doubt about that (because he has the full stealth skill set as class skills, plus he's faster at sneakin in and out than the rogue). Diplomacy indeed does not replace gather information, but he can more easily befriend an npc who gathers the information for him.

But outside of core there are way more ways to obstruct a monk's special attacks (stun, grapple, trip) than to develop countermeasures.

Or are there any non-core ways for a 9th level monk to get around 24/7 mirror images? OK, I got one core method here: blind-fight and closing the eyes reduces the miss chance from around 85% to 25%. But still...

- Giacomo

Riffington

2009-12-19, 08:11 AM

Or are there any non-core ways for a 9th level monk to get around 24/7 mirror images? OK, I got one core method here: blind-fight and closing the eyes reduces the miss chance from around 85% to 25%. But still...

- Giacomo

Pierce Magical Concealment (Mageslayer Prereq, but surely you don't mind that one anyway)

Emmerask

2009-12-19, 08:13 AM

Well there would also be the necklace in the mic(Ithink it was there) with which you can enchant your fists giving him a +1 + dispell(once per day acts like a targeted dispel magic on successfull hit) (+2 total)necklace at 9th level seems not completly unreasonable. And would take care of some of the defenses like stun immunity :smallwink:

Mushroom Ninja

2009-12-19, 10:30 AM

In a core rules environment, a monk can be a good assassin (he even easily meets the requirements for the assassin prestige class!) as well as spy, there is no doubt about that (because he has the full stealth skill set as class skills, plus he's faster at sneakin in and out than the rogue). Diplomacy indeed does not replace gather information, but he can more easily befriend an npc who gathers the information for him.

The monk's aptitude for spying and assassination really depends on the DM's preferences. If the DM happens to be a fan of traps, any would-be assassin or spy is going to have great difficulty succeeding without any levels of rogue. Also, the lack of Bluff will impede the monk's aptitude in both fields.

That said, a dip into assassin or rogue (assuming you ignore the fluff about monk multiclassing) would actually be pretty cool. At least you would get UMD and Bluff as class skills.

taltamir

2009-12-19, 11:22 AM

I remember an example fight of monk vs wizard 20 by two famous optimizers... the monk won initiative with a nat 20 (the wizard was heavily initiative optimized), wizard rolled something like six 1s in a row on his saves vs stunning fist. Amazingly the monk won...

They both agreed that was a fluke and tried again, the wizard decimated the monk of course.

lord_khaine

2009-12-19, 12:14 PM

If you have more than one image, the opponent can just shut his eyes. But then, as long as you're abusing persistent spell, you win. I'm not debating that. Casters with persistent spell virtually always win. You just can't beat that level of cheese.

Though im pretty sure you cant abuse Persistent spell to that degree without levels in incantrix, and we are talking about a level 9 wizard here, so its irrelevant. If the wizard was allowed to pick fancy prestice classes then the monk could also just take the Talashtorian rute.

For instance - a 9th level fighter as the lord of his castle. Okay, the monk can probably find him and the fighter isn't too good at spotting the monk. But then what? Grappling a fighter is a bad idea. Entering melee combat is a worse idea. Stunning fist is likely blocked by the fighter's good fort save, and the guy has way more hit points than the monk anyway.

Thats not true, unless the fighter is build for grappling he really doesnt stand a chance, and the only thing he gets from being build for that is the ability to resist enemy grapple attacks.

A 9th level rogue as magistrate of a thieves guild is a highly elusive target. It more than likely beats the monk at both detection and stealth (and, in case it matters, at UMD) and any decent rogue has a trick or two to escape grapples. Monk scores zero out of three. The same pretty much applies to the bard, who will likely be aware of the monk through his social network before the monk is done making gather info checks.

Disagree here as well, the rogue will proberly be a little better at stealth, but a bit worse at detection as well, and unlike the fight against the wizard, then it doesnt matter as much here if the target is allowed to get out of the grapple. also the Rogue share the wizards weak fortitude save, so a unlucky stunning fist could end the battle before its begun.

Really the main issue here is to find the rogue, but thats a problem that will be shared by most classes.

As for the Bard, the only thing i can say is i dont agree about the "social network" having any impact in this situation.

The only place i agree is with the assasination of the druid, but if he is hiding out in the wild as a animal then it would be impossible for anyone to get him, including the wizard.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-19, 12:22 PM

You use one/day? Yikes. How do you handle the loss of casting for a week, or weeks?

I guess you can contact the Astral plane for a useful tidbit of information that is useless 56% of the time. And losing that fifth level spell slot every day... ouch. Are you generalist elf?

I don't use it every day. Frankly, if I'm not leaving my rather well defended house...well, dungeon at this point, but hey...there's not much need to cast it. I also have a +8 modifier on int checks, making it relatively safe. Astral plane and lower are completely safe. Demidiety and lesser diety are reasonably safe.

Frankly, I haven't blown a check yet, and if I do, I guess I stay holed up in a highly secure part of the dungeon if at all possible. Unless some odd plot hook forces it, I really don't *need* to leave for anything. And I do keep UMD maxed, so I guess my pile of wands/scrolls would leave me options.

As it happens, yup. Elven Generalist. Not a bad option at all, presuming you're an elf.

If you have more than one image, the opponent can just shut his eyes. But then, as long as you're abusing persistent spell, you win. I'm not debating that. Casters with persistent spell virtually always win. You just can't beat that level of cheese.

There are ways around it. See also, dispel magic. True seeing also screws over illusory defenses, so it should not be the only line of defense.

Tyndmyr

2009-12-19, 12:26 PM

How cheesy do you want the answer to your question to be?

The least cheesy involves the use of items that boost Int checks and Marshals.

Well, technically speaking, you could have a +6 item by then if you really, really wanted it. I only run a +4, but lets run the numbers.

18 base.
+2 racial
+2 levels
+6 enhancement-headband.
+3 age
------
31.

So, without doing anything terribly cheesy, you could hit an 11 every time. At level 12, a 12 every time. Once you can afford inherent bonuses, it spikes again.

Yeah, you can get a lot of use out of it for little risk. And hey...you're a wizard. You were going to pump int anyway, so it doesn't even require special effort.

Sinfire Titan

2009-12-19, 01:17 PM

lord_khaine

2009-12-19, 01:50 PM

Well, technically speaking, you could have a +6 item by then if you really, really wanted it. I only run a +4, but lets run the numbers.

18 base.
+2 racial
+2 levels
+6 enhancement-headband.
+3 age
------
31.

So, without doing anything terribly cheesy, you could hit an 11 every time. At level 12, a 12 every time. Once you can afford inherent bonuses, it spikes again.

Yeah, you can get a lot of use out of it for little risk. And hey...you're a wizard. You were going to pump int anyway, so it doesn't even require special effort.

And at the same time it would seems this would give you a -8 penalty to con?

that should leave you with enough HP to risk dying from falling off a horse.

THIS ARGUMENT IS NOT ABOUT CORE-ONLY!

For the love of Tzeentch, please stop using that as your argument. It isn't a valid point in this conversation (or several others for that matter). This is theoretical only; you aren't the DM, I'm not the DM, and the OP didn't specify a restriction on the sources available.

LARGER LETTERS DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE RIGHT.

Yukitsu

2009-12-19, 01:57 PM

And at the same time it would seems this would give you a -8 penalty to con?

that should leave you with enough HP to risk dying from falling off a horse.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? :smallconfused:

Tavar

2009-12-19, 02:00 PM

LARGER LETTERS DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE RIGHT.
Nor does it make him any more wrong. Plus, it also points out that this is something that should be noted.

And the -8 con would be from racial penalties+aging penalties.

Yukitsu

2009-12-19, 02:02 PM

The conclusion is that you'd have no HP. I'd argue that that's not quite true. In the instance given, I'd say you're likely to have taken fairy mysteries initiate, or are actually playing a lesser teifling, and not a grey elf.

Sinfire Titan

2009-12-19, 03:36 PM

LARGER LETTERS DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE RIGHT.

No, it just makes it easier to see that I am right. Past debates with Giacomo have proved to me that he has a habit of ignoring large quantities of evidence if the evidence comes from a non-Core source, and that he often does this even when the OP specifies that there are no source restrictions.

And I'm doing him a favor by calling those threads "debates". At the same time, I'd like to apologize to my Creative Thinking instructor for that same reason.

Kylarra

2009-12-19, 03:40 PM

Even if we ignore the aging bonus, that still puts it at 28 which means you're auto succeeding against lesser deities for a correct answer 49% of the time. Not great, but eh whatever. You also still have a 90% chance of succeeding with a lesser deity.

Myrmex

2009-12-19, 05:32 PM

Well, technically speaking, you could have a +6 item by then if you really, really wanted it. I only run a +4, but lets run the numbers.

18 base.
+2 racial
+2 levels
+6 enhancement-headband.
+3 age
------
31.

So, without doing anything terribly cheesy, you could hit an 11 every time. At level 12, a 12 every time. Once you can afford inherent bonuses, it spikes again.

Yeah, you can get a lot of use out of it for little risk. And hey...you're a wizard. You were going to pump int anyway, so it doesn't even require special effort.

I was assuming no +3 age, because that's -6 con & dex, which, as a gray elf, is dangerous. Unless you have 60 pointbuy or something. I guess you could go necropolitan, but that means you're level 7 or 8, not 9, and it comes with its own problems.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-19, 05:56 PM

Bestow Curse can advance age categories, so what you do is curse yourself before a Q&A session, then uncurse yourself afterwards.

jseah

2009-12-19, 06:03 PM

Bestow Curse can advance age categories, so what you do is curse yourself before a Q&A session, then uncurse yourself afterwards.
I don't see that in the normal uses of bestow curse. Is that an expansion somewhere?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-19, 06:06 PM

Look in the Book of Vile Darkeness Moderate Dimness.

Soranar

2009-12-19, 06:10 PM

Alright , the only I see for a monk (using non-core rules) to consistently beat a wizard is to use non core races to counteract the wizard's powers and grapple him to death. Either that or have a non-pure monk to get extra abilities

so basically, if the wizard is content to change the rules of the game, the monk should just do the same

1rst option that comes to mind

snirfneblin

non detection and disguise self should make you able to get near the wizard, at level 9 (6 with level adjusted) you would need to shapechange (using a magic item) into a large creature to get a better grapple bonus and a higher str to actually win the grapple though

you also have a pretty mean spell resistance

your first action should be to use stunning fist (with a high enough wisdom score it has a reasonable chance of success)

duergar

you can enlarge yourself and make yourself invinsible, again a reasonable chance of success

no spell resistance to help though

Centaur

+8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence.

fixes your MAD problem, very quick (50ft base movement) so it could just rush the wizard and hope for success (not as good as simply teleporting or sneaking but it's worth a shot), +4 to grapple from size , (despite being a level 4 monstrous humanoid and level 2 monk) you should still win the grapple with your high str and your damage is significant despite being a low level monk

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-19, 06:35 PM

How do you get around something like:

Wizard: Imp, would now be a good time to use Commune?

Imp: Yes, as one week has passed. Let us begin!

*Imp Communes*

Fiendish Representative: Thank you for Communing with us today. For training and quality assurance purposes, this Commune may be recorded for future use.

Imp: Ok, that's new...

FR: Questions only please, the hotline is busy.

Imp: Right. Will either my master or I be attacked this week?

FR: Yes.

Imp: Will it be a magic user?

FR: No.

Imp: A thief, perhaps?

FR: No

Imp: A warrior, then?

FR: Bingo.

Imp: Hey, that wasn't a yes or no answer!

FR: And that wasn't a question. Can we get on with it?

Imp: Ok. Will it be in the first three days of this week?

FR: No.

Imp: The last four days?

FR: Yes. That will be all for this week. Thank you, please come again.

jseah

2009-12-19, 06:43 PM

Fiendish Representative: Thank you for Communing with us today. For training and quality assurance purposes, this Commune may be recorded for future use.

Imp: Ok, that's new...

FR: Questions only please, the hotline is busy.

<...>
Imp: Hey, that wasn't a yes or no answer!

FR: And that wasn't a question. Can we get on with it?
Hilarious. XD

But yes, I forgot there were ways of getting access to the clerical divination spells.

Oslecamo

2009-12-19, 06:46 PM

jseah

2009-12-19, 06:54 PM

If you're only going to be atacked once in a week, you're surely not in a D&D world anymore. Or in any world at all.

Heck, taking in acount the broadness of "atacked", you'll be atacked every day of the week. Today you'll be atacked by a cold, tomorrow someone will atack your honor, after tomorrow someone will atack your dignity, and so on.:smallamused:
It's a matter of question design then. Your wizard will quickly find out that his questions have holes and soon rectify that.

eg. "attacked by a creature in a physical life-threatening manner"

Doesn't cover traps now, but you win some, you lose some.

Emmerask

2009-12-19, 11:26 PM

Still all this does not asnwer if questions regarding the future are at all legitimate to ask... most games I have played are not with a predetermined future without it though all answers regarding the future will be maybe :smalltongue:

Fiendish Representative: Thank you for Communing with us today. For training and quality assurance purposes, this Commune may be recorded for future use.

Imp: Right. Will either my master or I be attacked this week?

FR: Maybe

other generic questions regarding the future: all maybe

The diety knows only likelihoods of events that may come by but the only one word answer prohibits him to tell more then maybe even a 99% chance that you will be attacked and a 1% chance you wont will result in a maybe

Tyndmyr

2009-12-19, 11:46 PM

The spell does not list that among the restrictions, so RAW, it's quite ok to ask.

RAI, trying to divine answers about the future is a pretty frequent fantasy trope. In fact, this spell seems to capture that well, with the questioning the gods, the chance for lies, etc. I mean, fantasy divination is typically plagued with problems.

It's true that the DM may not know the exact future, but giving his best guess is probably the most correct response. Yes, the players actions may foil this, setting up a lovely shrodinger's prophecy, but that seems the most reasonable course of action.

jseah

2009-12-19, 11:59 PM

Then it's still more question design.

Am I significantly more likely to be attacked this week than not?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-20, 12:12 AM

taltamir

2009-12-20, 03:03 AM

Look in the Book of Vile Darkeness Moderate Dimness.

ha, this is so true...
IMAO the book of erotic fantasy should have been called vile darkness..

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-20, 03:09 AM

Wizard: Do I look like a b*tch?
FR: Um... no...?
Wizard: Then why are you trying to f*ck me like one?

*One plane shift later*

Wizard: It seems what we have here is a failure to communicate. Orb of Force!

Dominate monster would be better. Order it to flog itself whenever its answers are not to your liking.

Sir Giacomo

2009-12-20, 10:37 AM

No, it just makes it easier to see that I am right. Past debates with Giacomo have proved to me that he has a habit of ignoring large quantities of evidence if the evidence comes from a non-Core source, and that he often does this even when the OP specifies that there are no source restrictions.

And I'm doing him a favor by calling those threads "debates". At the same time, I'd like to apologize to my Creative Thinking instructor for that same reason.

Well, I am not sure whether I can follow you here. I only divided up in my previous post what I think the scenario of the OP would be like with just core rules on the one hand and including all kind of non-core stuff people can come up on the other.

Also, I never did any of the things you maintain. I find that quite to the contrary people often ignore evidence I bring up in a core context, so instead of admitting they are wrong they bring up non-core material to make their point. That is a fine but decisive difference I daresay.:smallwink:

I alreay said repeatedly that non-core material makes the game quite unbalanced - the introduction of immediate and swift actions for the wizard being among the most prominent advantages introduced.

In core, the monk has a good chance to assassinate the wizard when both are 9th level. Outside core, probably not.
In core, the monk with silence up and specialised in grappling in fact has a good chance to assassinate a same level opponent from any class (except for a full BAB class also devoted to grappling), as lord_khaine already pointed out (edit: in particular since it is one of the classes that can get the assassin prestige class).

- Giacomo