Most Evil Monster [3.5/PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

What, in your opinion, is the most evil (in terms of alignment) creature that blights the existence of all other living and non-living entities that call the cosmology of DnD home?

What, in your opinion, is the most evil (in terms of having to fight) creature that can blight a group of players (of any level) who are going about their daily business?


Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures are not allowed to be used to answer either of these questions.

[arguskos]

Stats or no? Statted out, one of the archdevils or demon princes, no contest.

Not statted, I'd say the Baernoloths. Props if you know who those are. :smallamused:

The trick here is simply FINDING a critter who would go about jacking up the player's **** for giggles. This is vastly harder than you might think, since most of the truly diabolically EVIL things in the universe aren't random about it. Even the demon princes have plans, long-term goals, and don't just go about jacking people up.

Oh, and before someone chimes in with "the Far Realms!" let me mention that they aren't really evil. We simply interpret them as evil. In reality, their motives are so far removed from our ability to comprehend that they just seem evil. They really just do things with no rhyme or reason behind their actions.

[Tanuki Tales]

First one is non-statted.

The second one is more in the vein of "The party fighter running into a Rust Monster alone and the RM gets a surprise round."

[Volkov]

Non-statted: General of Gehenna, he is Neutral Evil personified. He takes it by default.
Statted: Baernoloth: They created the Obyriths and the Ancient Baatorians, they are evil itself.

[The Tygre]

For me, it's always been Asmodeus. Props to the General, the Baerns, the Sins, and the Horsemen, but to me, it's always been hard to top Asmo. Then again, I've been nursed on DiceFreaks, so I might be a little biased.

[Volkov]

For me, it's always been Asmodeus. Props to the General, the Baerns, the Sins, and the Horsemen, but to me, it's always been hard to top Asmo. Then again, I've been nursed on DiceFreaks, so I might be a little biased.

The general is so evil he's convinced TSR and WOTC to never stat him once. And now gehenna is non-existent, he never has to worry ever again. Now that is the epitome of success, no stats means no one can defeat him. Zargon and the queen of chaos, both of which predate asmodeus by a long shot. Are mere amateurs in evilness to the General.

[Coidzor]

Or that he doesn't properly exist.

I always figured the general was just propaganda myself.

[Tavar]

Baernoloth? What/where are they found? And what's so bad about them?

[Amiel]

Baernoloth or Baernaloth are the ancient progenitors of all other yugoloths; in effect, precursors to the current neutral evil friends that infest the lower realities; in a way akin to the ancient baatorians.

They appear as sickly, famine ravaged gaunt daemonic jackals that exude putrescence and disease. They are vile, manipulative and intensely secretive.

It is said that they were the first fiendish race, and colonised Baator and the Abyss before been driven into the Wastes.
It is also said that it was these that instigated the Blood War and denied all other fiends access to their greater teleport SLA; and that among their number there one who granted the fiends their innate teleportation abilities.

It is said that they actually killed a god.

[Volkov]

Or that he doesn't properly exist.

I always figured the general was just propaganda myself.

I'm pretty sure that the yugoloths in the crawling city aren't scared witless of nothing. I'm certain that the Oinoloth isn't afraid of the General if he doesn't exist. All outsider races have a supreme ruler or a creature that the entire group is generally afraid of. The Yugoloths are no exception and the Oinoloth isn't that ruler.

[BenTheJester]

For me, it's always been Asmodeus. Props to the General, the Baerns, the Sins, and the Horsemen, but to me, it's always been hard to top Asmo. Then again, I've been nursed on DiceFreaks, so I might be a little biased.

Asmodeus is Lawful to the extreme. Not evil. He got evil from the corruption that came from killing demons. He is primarily lawful, secondarily evil.

[Amiel]

Then Asmodeus should really be in Mechanus rather than Baator.

[Volkov]

Asmodeus is Lawful to the extreme. Not evil. He got evil from the corruption that came from killing demons. He is primarily lawful, secondarily evil.

And the general is pure, undiluted evil. Demogorgon is mainly chaotic, partly evil, and all bat**** insane.

[Volkov]

Then Asmodeus should really be in Mechanus rather than Baator.

He's evil enough to be too evil to be in archeon or mechanus. But too lawful to be in gehenna.

[Amiel]

Based on what Ben has written and described of WotC's version of Asmodeus (since he doesn't really give the impression of been evil evil), he really sounds a tight fit within the environs of Mechanus rather than any other plane; Mechanus been Lawful to the extreme.

IIRC, per Planescape, Archeron was LN (LE), home of rakshasas, and Gehenna was NE (somewhat LE, primarily NE).

[Volkov]

Based on what Ben has written and described of WotC's version of Asmodeus (since he doesn't really give the impression of been evil evil), he really sounds a tight fit within the environs of Mechanus rather than any other plane; Mechanus been Lawful to the extreme.

IIRC, per Planescape, Archeron was LN (LE), home of rakshasas, and Gehenna was NE (somewhat LE, primarily NE).

He's openly cruel and enjoys the suffering of others.

[Amiel]

Is this WotC's Asmodeus? What Asmodeus was Ben talking about?

I know, from reading the Fiendish Codexes that Asmodeus was initially a paragon of law that fell due to extreme axiomatics; in being so, he drafted a compact that allowed him free opportunity to brand his own warped version of reality into the multiverse at large and the means to poach worshippers and the like.

[Volkov]

Is this WotC's Asmodeus? What Asmodeus was Ben talking about?

I know, from reading the Fiendish Codexes that Asmodeus was initially a paragon of law that fell due to extreme axiomatics; in being so, he drafted a compact that allowed him free opportunity to brand his own warped version of reality into the multiverse at large and the means to poach worshippers and the like.

He was an archon, his constant fighting with the Obyrith hordes changed him to adopt some of their world views, the evil ones to be exact, not the lovecraftian insanely chaotic world-views. By the time the Obyriths had been overthrowned, he was corrupt, and the fact that he had become more and more axiomatic as time passed didn't help either. He then was tossed into hell after beating the Lawful gods at the game of fine print. His Aspect and his followers kicked the rear end of Zargon and the other ancient baatorians. He tossed Zargons horn at oerth and Zargon started a cult, then a barbarian horde attacked the city zargon was in, then Zargon scattered them all, then the gods came and fought Zargon, Zargon killed some of them and sent them all away, the Asmodeus came and kicked Zargon's behind once more.

[arguskos]

Point the First: The General of Gehenna is a good choice. However, the Baernoloths have him stomped. Why? It was by their will he came to be, if he exists (I don't believe he's a single individual personally). All the evil that he stands for can be directly laid at the Baern's feet as their will. That ALONE lets them trump him. The Baernoloths are probably the most emblematic of all Evil in the universe, considering they made the rest of it. :smallamused:

Point the Second: Concerning Asmodeus. The First Devil indeed came to be when he fell from the ways of Law and Good by turning to Evil to complete his Lawful aims. In many ways, he is an axiom of Law first, though let's be fair to the man: he's pretty damned evil. He's sold worlds for their souls. He lied (sorta) to the gods of good about his methods. He tricked them ALL with Law so that he could divert souls to his black banner. He is evil, there is no doubt about it.

Point the Third: As for the cruelest monster to throw at a party, eh, that really depends on what you're willing to accept as fair play. If you mean the meanest straight-up unaltered critter to hurl at players, I'd say that you should look at the Lower Planes. Most of the statted Demon Princes/Archdevils are stupid hard to deal with, since they have massive immunities/resistances, and very very high damage outputs. Many are very scary casters as well.

[Tanuki Tales]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><

[arguskos]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><
Eh, ok, so if Uniques aren't valid, then I'll revise my "killing the party" answer to "pick your favorite high-end fiend with lots of SLAs or casting". :smallamused:

[Ravingdork]

A rogue against one or more iron golems, in a volcanic cave, with no way out and no place to hide.

[JonestheSpy]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><

The Mind Flayers always seemed like they should win the Most Evil award to me.

[The Tygre]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><

Ah! My plot to start an insipid and pointless alignment debate has been foiled! Curses! I'll get you next time forums! NEEEEXT TIIIIMMMEEE!

[Tanuki Tales]

Eh, ok, so if Uniques aren't valid, then I'll revise my "killing the party" answer to "pick your favorite high-end fiend with lots of SLAs or casting". :smallamused:

I thought Shadows, Allips and That Damn Crab were harder then a High-end fiend.

[Iamyourking]

All Devils. Plain and simple. Demons do evil but it's pointless, Daemons do evil but it's selfish. Devils are the most competent and well-organized force for evil in the universe, and Asmodeus embodies both Law and Evil to their greatest possible extreme.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I am intrigued by these baernoloths, now. I did a little digging, but there doesn't seem to be much about them. Somebody statted out a CR 29 crazy-ass baernoloth, but I'm not sure if it's canon.

I'll have to somehow work them into my games...

[Aldizog]

I'd have to give the nod to the demons over the devils. The demons will "rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skins into their clothing" just for the fun of it, whether it benefits them or not. You can't bargain with them, because they'll break any deal. Sane enough to make plans to hurt you, crazy enough to not need a reason to do it. Whatever is the most evil series of atrocities you can think of, that should be a normal daily routine for a demon. As an awesome villain once said, "And it wasn't for vengeance. It wasn't for greed. It was because I liked it."

For non-fiends, the Gray Jester also strikes me as one of the more inherently evil beings in the multiverse. I can see a stronger argument for them being "Seriously, not kidding, ALWAYS Evil" than for most non-fiends.

[arguskos]

I thought Shadows, Allips and That Damn Crab were harder then a High-end fiend.
For their level, yes, they are all difficult. However, many high-end fiends have vast reservoirs of SLAs and casting, making them very powerful foes to deal with.

[Coidzor]

For non-fiends, the Gray Jester also strikes me as one of the more inherently evil beings in the multiverse. I can see a stronger argument for them being "Seriously, not kidding, ALWAYS Evil" than for most non-fiends.

What's the source on the Gray Jester?

PS, what's the proper name of that damned crab again?

[arguskos]

What's the source on the Gray Jester?

PS, what's the proper name of that damned crab again?
The Gray Jester is from Heroes of Horror. TDC is a monstrous crab from It's Wet Outside, IIRC.

[AslanCross]

Is this WotC's Asmodeus? What Asmodeus was Ben talking about?

I know, from reading the Fiendish Codexes that Asmodeus was initially a paragon of law that fell due to extreme axiomatics; in being so, he drafted a compact that allowed him free opportunity to brand his own warped version of reality into the multiverse at large and the means to poach worshippers and the like.

Asmodeus likes the Law, but he's always finding ways to subvert the Law to his own ends. To him, the Law is just a tool to use to crush his opposition while protecting his interests. He'd readily discard the Pact Primeval someday when it suits his purposes---according to Fiendish Codex 2, he intends to strike a bargain with the demons and send the upper planes crashing into the void.

[Aldizog]

What's the source on the Gray Jester?

Heroes of Horror. Evil fey that drains joy from children.

[Callos_DeTerran]

He was an archon, his constant fighting with the Obyrith hordes changed him to adopt some of their world views, the evil ones to be exact, not the lovecraftian insanely chaotic world-views. By the time the Obyriths had been overthrowned, he was corrupt, and the fact that he had become more and more axiomatic as time passed didn't help either. He then was tossed into hell after beating the Lawful gods at the game of fine print. His Aspect and his followers kicked the rear end of Zargon and the other ancient baatorians. He tossed Zargons horn at oerth and Zargon started a cult, then a barbarian horde attacked the city zargon was in, then Zargon scattered them all, then the gods came and fought Zargon, Zargon killed some of them and sent them all away, the Asmodeus came and kicked Zargon's behind once more.

Point of fact, this is an unsubstantiated rumor that could very well be devilish propaganda at it's finest. It says so right before it tells the story of the Pact Primeval. Up until the Zargon part that is.

And since Asmodeus and Demogorgon are automatically disqualified for being unique beings (as is the Serpent), I'll have to go with the ethergaunts for most evil and evil to throw against players. Any creature that gives wizards the finger while using the exact same tricks intelligently against them is aces in my book.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Most Evil via alignment? Pelor, the Burning Hate.

Most evil to face? The Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 9, Disintigrate and Implosion at will, plus another that I don't quite recall.

Edit: Riiight, the 3rd SLA at-will is Disjunction. :smallredface:

[BenTheJester]

The little info I could find on the General(capital G) is that, while being the epitome of Neutral Evil, doesn't seem to care the slightest of what happens outside Gehenna. I know he is said to have "super machiavellical plans", but that seems to be just a general phrase applied to any evil being.

Anybody got a good source of info on him? (I just love knowing about the mystical lore hiding behind those super powerful, yet "not much is known about them" faces(General, Lady of Pain, etc.) )

[arguskos]

The little info I could find on the General(capital G) is that, while being the epitome of Neutral Evil, doesn't seem to care the slightest of what happens outside Gehenna. I know he is sad to have "super machiavellical plans", but that seems to be just a general phrase applied to any evil being.

Anybody got a good source of info on him? (I just love knowing about the mystical lore hiding behind those super powerful, yet "unpopular" faces.)
There isn't any. The General lives in the Crawling City, a massive moving fortress that crawls around Gehenna. He never leaves, never sees anyone, and no one knows his identity. He is notable for two true reasons. First, he has never entered into the Blood War, even though Gehenna is between the Abyss and Baator. Second, and more importantly, it is said that the Blood War will end if and when the forces in the Crawling City ever enter into the Blood War. However, the General has nothing to say about this, and has never been reached for commentary on the matter.

That's... about all there is to say about the General really.

[BenTheJester]

There isn't any. The General lives in the Crawling City, a massive moving fortress that crawls around Gehenna. He never leaves, never sees anyone, and no one knows his identity. He is notable for two true reasons. First, he has never entered into the Blood War, even though Gehenna is between the Abyss and Baator. Second, and more importantly, it is said that the Blood War will end if and when the forces in the Crawling City ever enter into the Blood War. However, the General has nothing to say about this, and has never been reached for commentary on the matter.

That's... about all there is to say about the General really.

Yeah I knew about that, I just hoped that there would be something more about him.

And the Crawling City is awesome. An incredibly huge city moving on thousands of fire-immuned arms "marching" on burning lava and whatnot. Yes please.

[arguskos]

Yeah I knew about that, I just hoped that there would be something more about him.

And the Crawling City is awesome. An incredibly huge city moving on thousands of fire-immuned arms "marching" on burning lava and whatnot. Yes please.
There really isn't much more. I can't find anything else canon, other than that he's supposed to be the first Ultraloth. Beyond that, the General is a mostly blank figure.

[SurlySeraph]

I'd say the Baernoloths, yeah. They're elemental evil, uninfluenced by anything else.


Most Evil via alignment? Pelor, the Burning Hate.

Communication on this topic is heresy. Please state your name and location to expedite the recovery process. Do not attempt to avoid recovery. Attempts to evade recovery will be unsuccessful, and will only cause you to be fatigued during the recovery process.


Most evil to face? The Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 9, Disintigrate and Implosion at will, plus another that I don't quite recall.

Edit: Riiight, the 3rd SLA at-will is Disjunction. :smallredface:

Yeah. I suspect the designer thought you got 9th-level spells at 9th level. If that was intentional... I really don't want to know what the CR 20 equivalent would look like.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Communication on this topic is heresy. Please state your name and location to expedite the recovery process. Do not attempt to avoid recovery. Attempts to evade recovery will be unsuccessful, and will only cause you to be fatigued during the recovery process. The reason I know this is above your clearance, Citizen. Proof that Friend Computer approves of me is in the fact that I am still alive. If I was wrong, Friend Computer would have terminated me. Not knowing this makes you a commie mutant traitor. Please report to the nearest termination booth.

[chiasaur11]

There isn't any. The General lives in the Crawling City, a massive moving fortress that crawls around Gehenna. He never leaves, never sees anyone, and no one knows his identity. He is notable for two true reasons. First, he has never entered into the Blood War, even though Gehenna is between the Abyss and Baator. Second, and more importantly, it is said that the Blood War will end if and when the forces in the Crawling City ever enter into the Blood War. However, the General has nothing to say about this, and has never been reached for commentary on the matter.

That's... about all there is to say about the General really.

Obviously, The General is a computer.

He will eventually be defeated by Patrick McGoohan.

[Coidzor]

Patrick McGoohan is the Avatar!? :smallconfused:

Exodus is in Gehenna?!:smalleek:

[SurlySeraph]

The reason I know this is above your clearance, Citizen. Proof that Friend Computer approves of me is in the fact that I am still alive. If I was wrong, Friend Computer would have terminated me. Not knowing this makes you a commie mutant traitor. Please report to the nearest termination booth.

We have not established that you are, in fact, alive. Please report to a termination booth so that the Pelortron can establish your living status and adjust it if necessary. As dead people cannot move, failure to do so will prove that you are dead, and therefore guilty of heresy. Heresy is treason. Treason is punishable by death.

[Hunter Noventa]

Somethign teribly evil to face is the Ephermal Swarm. An Undead, Incorporeal Swarm made up of small animals killed by a single event. They have auto-hit, no-saveStrangth Damage that can kill you and a butt-ton of hit points. And they can be floating, ghostly KITTENS. They also have 12 HD and are CR 5, a point at which you could barely have ghost touch weapons, but probably don't unless you were fighitng a lot of undead beforehand.

Your party can be wiped out by a swarm of Ghostly Kittens if you don't have good spellcasters, I know mine nearly was.

[sofawall]

Somethign teribly evil to face is the Ephermal Swarm. An Undead, Incorporeal Swarm made up of small animals killed by a single event. They have auto-hit, no-saveStrangth Damage that can kill you and a butt-ton of hit points. And they can be floating, ghostly KITTENS. They also have 12 HD and are CR 5, a point at which you could barely have ghost touch weapons, but probably don't unless you were fighitng a lot of undead beforehand.

Your party can be wiped out by a swarm of Ghostly Kittens if you don't have good spellcasters, I know mine nearly was.

I was actually looking at that the other day. Incorporeal makes for a TPK chance at that level. Swarms make for a TPK chance at that, and most other levels. Incorporeal swarm?

TPK waiting to happen.

[Myrmex]

Point the First: The General of Gehenna is a good choice. However, the Baernoloths have him stomped. Why? It was by their will he came to be, if he exists (I don't believe he's a single individual personally). All the evil that he stands for can be directly laid at the Baern's feet as their will. That ALONE lets them trump him. The Baernoloths are probably the most emblematic of all Evil in the universe, considering they made the rest of it. :smallamused:

By that argument, the world's greatest golfer is Tiger Woods' dad.

[Shademan]

What, in your opinion, is the most evil (in terms of alignment) creature that blights the existence of all other living and non-living entities that call the cosmology of DnD home?

What, in your opinion, is the most evil (in terms of having to fight) creature that can blight a group of players (of any level) who are going about their daily business?


Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures are not allowed to be used to answer either of these questions.

dolphins!
those evil, rapy bastards...

[arguskos]

By that argument, the world's greatest golfer is Tiger Woods' dad.
...no? That isn't the argument I made. Now, if Tiger Woods father taught Tiger everything he knows, and is the direct metaphysical wellspring of Tiger's golfing skill, then yeah, I'd personally expect Tiger's old man to be amazing at golf.

Do you have an argument for an evil force that is clearly more emblematic of Evil than the race that can legitimately be said to be the wellspring of Evil itself? If so, let's have at it. :smallamused:

[bosssmiley]

Atropal - it's a vengeful flying god abortion that wants to kill the world with its life-sucking aura, all while squalling its evil echoey baby-wails. It is all kinds of creepy and evil.

[Tanuki Tales]

dolphins!
those evil, rapy bastards...

This isn't Jack ^^;

[Shademan]

This isn't Jack ^^;

jack, who? :smallconfused:

[Tanuki Tales]

jack, who? :smallconfused:

The webcomic? As in where Eye raping Hell Dolphins are characters?

[Shademan]

The webcomic? As in where Eye raping Hell Dolphins are characters?

wow. now I wanan read that one. but no, dolphins rape each other and other animals IRL

[chiasaur11]

Real dolphins are kindy Rape-y as well.

Even an episode of King of the Hill about it.

[Tanuki Tales]

wow. now I wanan read that one. but no, dolphins rape each other and other animals IRL

But aren't all living partially sentient beings capable of rape?

So how does that make just Dolphins evil?

[Shademan]

But aren't all living partially sentient beings capable of rape?

So how does that make just Dolphins evil?

oh, no. mant creatures do indeed rape. and offcourse, those are evil as well. dolphins just like to smack each other and other creatures around, rape em, rob em and burn their cute little cottages.

Dolphins laugh AT us...not with us.


also: :smallamused:

[Tanuki Tales]

oh, no. mant creatures do indeed rape. and offcourse, those are evil as well. dolphins just like to smack each other and other creatures around, rape em, rob em and burn their cute little cottages.

Dolphins laugh AT us...not with us.


also: :smallamused:

And now back on topic...

[Callos_DeTerran]

...no? That isn't the argument I made. Now, if Tiger Woods father taught Tiger everything he knows, and is the direct metaphysical wellspring of Tiger's golfing skill, then yeah, I'd personally expect Tiger's old man to be amazing at golf.

Do you have an argument for an evil force that is clearly more emblematic of Evil than the race that can legitimately be said to be the wellspring of Evil itself? If so, let's have at it. :smallamused:

Yes.

Neutral Evil isn't true Evil. Just as Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil aren't true evil. Phoekun did an excellent little post on why each of the Evil alignments is the 'true' evil and why each is 'false', ask her for it sometime.

And in any case, the baernoloths (if they exist) are not supreme evil simply by existing. Fantasy and reality is full of examples of the new surpassing the old. Hell, the ABYSS has that exact same story.

And last I heard this 'General' or baernoloths weren't part of the Ancients. Asmodeus is.

[erikun]

I'm surprised the Ethergaunts and Yuan-Ti haven't been mentioned more. I'd almost vote for Illithids, but eating brains is so last edition.

If we're talking about uniques, and it seems we are, why no mention of Tharizdun? There is something a bit frightening about something that has "destroy self" on its to-do list.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm surprised the Ethergaunts and Yuan-Ti haven't been mentioned more. I'd almost vote for Illithids, but eating brains is so last edition.

If we're talking about uniques, and it seems we are, why no mention of Tharizdun? There is something a bit frightening about something that has "destroy self" on its to-do list.

We're not. I specifically said we're not. Folks are just continuing arguments on uniques that was started when people didn't fully read the first post apparently. ^^;

[The_Snark]

Yes.

Neutral Evil isn't true Evil. Just as Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil aren't true evil. Phoekun did an excellent little post on why each of the Evil alignments is the 'true' evil and why each is 'false', ask her for it sometime.

This. Neutral Evil creatures are not "more evil" than Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. Imagine you have three glasses of water, and you add salt to one, pepper to one, and nothing to the third. The first two are less pure, perhaps, but there's still the exact same amount of water.

It's the same with alignments; adding other motives and concerns does not necessarily make them less evil. Now, you could make the argument that specific individuals care more about law or chaos than evil, but LE and CE are not inherently less evil than NE.

Minor yugoloth tangent: Additionally, the General specifically and the yugoloths in general lose major points in my book for being boring. We've been given a lot of information on devils, what they do, why they're evil, and what their brand of evil feels like; ditto for demons. Both of them have a nice distinctive feel, and there's a lot of material on them.

Yugoloths? Not so much. Planescape's yugoloths are evil Just Because. They crusade (okay, manipulate) to further generic Evil, with no real reasons or motives (aside from a side helping of ambition, but this is second to Evil). They're like those silly cartoon villains who want to pollute the world's oceans for no reason, or attempt to destroy cities just to prove how evil they are. I think the reason later editions kind of abandoned them was because this just wasn't all that interesting. The sparse descriptions in 3rd Edition give the impression that they're petty, self-serving creatures, willing to do absolutely anything—no matter how amoral or degrading—for personal profit.

Which is an interesting comment on the true nature of evil, but not really awe-inspiring. And yet people seem to like them, so I feel like I'm missing something... For those of you who like yugoloths: what makes them compelling to you?
Back on topic: I always kind of liked mind flayers. The brain-eating is a little gauche, but their habit of keeping brainwashed slaves as servants and cattle is pretty nasty. Other monsters keep slaves too, of course, but the mind flayers manage a blend of degradation, mindrape, and cannabalism that's hard to beat.

Stat-wise, people have already mentioned the Crab and the Adamantine Clockwork Horror (and Surly even provided a theory for why that thing is so ridiculous!), so I'll go ahead and mention a couple that can be deadly if the DM tinkers with them the wrong way. The phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) can shift into any Large-sized creature it's seen, which can include monsters waaay tougher than a CR 7 encounter even after you strip them of magical abilities.

The assassin vine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/assassinVine.htm) is okay as-is, but if an innocent DM tries to advance it by the standard rules, it quickly becomes a lot deadlier than it's supposed to be.

[SurlySeraph]

I don't particularly like Yugoloths; I find devils much more interesting, and demons semi-more interesting. I really don't think they've been fleshed out enough. But they're the NE outsiders we have.


Yes.

Neutral Evil isn't true Evil. Just as Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil aren't true evil. Phoekun did an excellent little post on why each of the Evil alignments is the 'true' evil and why each is 'false', ask her for it sometime.

And in any case, the baernoloths (if they exist) are not supreme evil simply by existing. Fantasy and reality is full of examples of the new surpassing the old. Hell, the ABYSS has that exact same story.

Perhaps not, but I'd say NE has a better claim to being pure evil, untainted by law or chaos, than the others do. Evil is all there is to them. To co-opt The Snark's metaphor, with NE all you're tasting is evil. There's nothing in it that isn't evil. The total level of evil may not be higher than with LE or CE, but it's all evil all the time.


And last I heard this 'General' or baernoloths weren't part of the Ancients. Asmodeus is.

Ah, but he only became evil later. They were evil from the start of their existence, and they were evil while he was non-evil.

[arguskos]

Surly beat me to it. See, the Baernoloths are the prime Neutral Evil creatures out there, other than gods, which don't count here. Neutral Evil isn't really "more" evil than Lawful/Chaotic Evil is, but where Lawful/Chaotic Evil have their natures diluted sometimes by Lawful/Chaotic concerns, Neutral Evil has no such compulsions. A NE outsider is all Evil, all the time. He is not Lawful nor is he Chaotic in his evil-doing. To my mind, that says that the paragons of Neutral Evil would count as perhaps the most pure essence of Evil in the multiverse, and thus I advanced the Baernoloths.

Also, as for the Yugoloths, yeah, they're sorta boring. But, we only really have one kind of NE outsider, so we just make do with them. (I refuse to count the Demodands for anything)

[Psychosis]

Most evil to face? The Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 9, Disintigrate and Implosion at will, plus another that I don't quite recall.

Edit: Riiight, the 3rd SLA at-will is Disjunction. :smallredface:
Sweet mother of ****! Screw Asmodeus, this thing is terrifying!

EDIT: Lost the rest of my post there.

I'm not really up on things like this Baernoloth stuff, but I've always looked at Hellfire Wyrms with a certain amount of apprehension. Call me simple.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Perhaps not, but I'd say NE has a better claim to being pure evil, untainted by law or chaos, than the others do. Evil is all there is to them. To co-opt The Snark's metaphor, with NE all you're tasting is evil. There's nothing in it that isn't evil. The total level of evil may not be higher than with LE or CE, but it's all evil all the time.

Like I said, the Phoekun's delving into the various evil alignments is perhaps the best I have seen, and the one I go by. I'd find it, but the forum lost the thread a while back (You'll Wish They Were Aboleth's) where it was. I still maintain that no evil is True Evil, if there was a true evil then it wouldn't have any sort of Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic addition to it...it'd just be Evil.


Ah, but he only became evil later. They were evil from the start of their existence, and they were evil while he was non-evil.

Again, that is subscribing to the possible devil propaganda of the Pact Primeval story. :smallwink: Don't fall prey to the propaganda Surly! Resist it!

[SurlySeraph]

Devils are loyal and hardworking servants of law. Why would I ever doubt their words? [/tryingtokeepastraightface]

[Tanuki Tales]

Sweet mother of ****! Screw Asmodeus, this thing is terrifying!

EDIT: Lost the rest of my post there.

I'm not really up on things like this Baernoloth stuff, but I've always looked at Hellfire Wyrms with a certain amount of apprehension. Call me simple.

I've always liked Hellfire Wyrms myself as well.