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Cazo
2009-12-17, 11:20 PM
What is this combo? I heard it can do infinite damage. How?

sonofzeal
2009-12-17, 11:26 PM
I thiiiiiink I remember hearing that it got disproven somehow, but the primary trick involves Aura of Chaos (ToB pg 57), being able to reroll 1's for weapon damage, and a 1d2 weapon.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-17, 11:27 PM
So it basically boils down to this. There's a stance a crusader can enter that says he for each damage die that comes up as maximum, he gets to roll one more damage die. if that one comes up max, you roll another, etc.... If you combine this stance with a certain feat/power/something, that lets you reroll ones on your damage die, and you have a weapon that does 1d2 damage, it creates an infinite loop, that allows you to deal infinite damage. I'm sure someone has already ninja'd me on this, and included the name of the feat/spell/power/whatever that lets you reroll those ones.

Draken
2009-12-17, 11:31 PM
Imbue/Enhance Healing from Complete Champion is the feat. It also requires a cleric with the luck domain for the effect of the feat.

It basicaly will do the following: When you roll a 1, it is considered a 2.

Pretty underwhelming until you add in Aura of Chaos and a gnome's fists.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-17, 11:33 PM
The problem with the build is simply that it's completely infinite. It can't be stopped since it forces you to reroll any dice with max damage. You can't elect to stop it, so the universe ends or something.

Draken
2009-12-17, 11:38 PM
Eeeh... Alternatively you just stop rolling once you reach the target's hit points since any "overkill" damage would merely be wasted.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-17, 11:39 PM
That would require a DM fiat. Which would probably also remove the viability of this build

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 11:40 PM
Nah, IIRC the wording is that "may" reroll, not that you "must," so you can choose to stop when your enemy dies.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-17, 11:42 PM
I'm pretty sure dealing infinite damage has a similar effect to dividing by zero. THE UNIVERSE IMPLODES!
http://halshop.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/phpw9jvl0pm.jpg

infinitypanda
2009-12-17, 11:47 PM
Nah, IIRC the wording is that "may" reroll, not that you "must," so you can choose to stop when your enemy dies.

I just checked it. You must reroll.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-17, 11:47 PM
Nah, IIRC the wording is that "may" reroll, not that you "must," so you can choose to stop when your enemy dies.

Where? I never saw the word "may" in that stance.:smallconfused:

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-17, 11:52 PM
The big problem with this combo is indeed that the first time you use it, your dm will look at you and say something to the effect of, "The enemy is completely and utterly destroyed by your attack, unfortunately the combined forces of luck and chaos also completely consume your character as well."

Temotei
2009-12-17, 11:55 PM
By RAW, then, it lasts forever.

Any sane DM would rule that your attacks eventually end because of time-consumption, ending your round...or something like that.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-17, 11:56 PM
Where? I never saw the word "may" in that stance.:smallconfused:
Try checking the Luck Devotion feat.

Well, it says "can" instead of "may," but the point's pretty much the same.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-17, 11:57 PM
No, its not that you get infinite attacks. Your one attack does infinite damage. Your character will literally have punched a hole in the fabric of time and space, because no one will be able to take their turn after you, because OOC you're still rollin' away...

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 11:57 PM
I just checked it. You must reroll.


Where? I never saw the word "may" in that stance.:smallconfused:

"When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result."

In my opinion, "can" is equivalent to "may" here. I can understand if you disagree, though.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-17, 11:59 PM
"When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result."

In my opinion, "can" is equivalent to "may" here. I can understand if you disagree, though.

That one is the sentence that I was looking at. The other parts are completely filler text.

Tavar
2009-12-18, 12:04 AM
Why is it filler text, though? Because it disagrees with you?

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-18, 12:05 AM
That one is the sentence that I was looking at. The other parts are completely filler text.

...What? No. You're wrong.


You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result

You can means you can also chose NOT to.

Jane_Smith
2009-12-18, 12:08 AM
Exactly - this combo is valid. Go go gnome monk/clerics/warblade.. thingys! Show that pun pun whos boss!

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-18, 12:09 AM
Luck Devotion
...For 1 minute, if the result of any damage roll you make is below average, you can increase it to one-half the maximum possible (rounded up). ...
I sure hope that line isn't filler text, because if so, the only thing Luck Devotion does is waste a swift action to improve your combat prowress. On the other hand, that'd work quite well for a Cleric of Vague Intentions. To the character sheet mobile!

You really need only one part of the two to be interruptible in order to end the "The world stops spinning forever" syndrome.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-18, 12:09 AM
Why is it filler text, though? Because it disagrees with you?

Yes... yes it is.

Although, on a more serious note, that clause contradicts itself. It says at first, to simply reroll (no "can" or "may" there). But the next sentence says you can choose whether or not to. So which is it?

Obviously this argument is pointless, as any self-respecting DM would rule this build out.

Coidzor
2009-12-18, 12:12 AM
^: No, it doesn't contradict itself. The "Can" is an elaboration of the first.


The problem with the build is simply that it's completely infinite. It can't be stopped since it forces you to reroll any dice with max damage. You can't elect to stop it, so the universe ends or something.

Nah, it just means that the local battlespace is frozen in time and anyone who gets near it become stuck as well. I mean, you don't get stopped by other people having battles against Asmodeus's lieutenants while you're just walking across town to go have a pint at your favorite pub. Nor does everyone grind to a halt while the grand vizier turns into a giant snake and gets killed by the plucky young man from humble origins.

At the very, very worst it would only freeze the local plane. Which means as far as universe ending plots go, one would need a fair host of crusaders...

Or else just freeze the wahat'cha'ma'callit plane of time and/or Mechanus... Or find a way to link all of the planes together, at least temporally.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-18, 12:13 AM
Nah, it just means that the local battlespace is frozen in time and anyone who gets near it become stuck as well. I mean, you don't get stopped by other people having battles against Asmodeus's lieutenants while you're just walking across town to go have a pint at your favorite pub. Nor does everyone grind to a halt while the grand vizier turns into a giant snake and gets killed by the plucky young man from humble origins.

At the very, very worst it would only freeze the local plane. Which means as far as universe ending plots go, one would need a fair host of crusaders...

That's because Asmodeus' lieutenants don't put cheese in their cheese. :smalltongue:

Tavar
2009-12-18, 12:14 AM
Exactly - this combo is valid. Go go gnome monk/clerics/warblade.. thingys! Show that pun pun whos boss!

Monk actually makes the build unworkable: you need to only deal 1d2 damage. Plus, Pun-Pun does it at level 1.

Saintjebus
2009-12-18, 12:15 AM
I can totally see a 1d2 Crusader as an NPC, but with the Vow of Nonviolence? I think. Basically, have him do just enough nonlethal damage to put the toughest PC down. Then do it to the next one. Your pc's will run from this "overpowered" encounter.

Tavar
2009-12-18, 12:17 AM
Doesn't even need the vow: if he has improved unarmed strike his attacks can do lethal or non-lethal at his choice.

Saintjebus
2009-12-18, 12:19 AM
That would require the players to see one punch, and hear the sound of about 20 punches all landing right after one another.

* No, really, ToB isn't anime. I promise! *

Coidzor
2009-12-18, 12:23 AM
I thought ToB was wuxia actually.

Saintjebus
2009-12-18, 12:24 AM
I don't know what that word means.

Edit: Ok, looked it up. I could see that, too. One of the most common complaints about ToB that I hear, though, is that it's too anime. That comes right after it's too overpowered.

Gan The Grey
2009-12-18, 12:27 AM
Luck Devotion
...For 1 minute, if the result of any damage roll you make is below average, you can increase it to one-half the maximum possible (rounded up). ...

Wait...am I crzy? Doesn't this make the 1d2 crusader unworkable? If you roll a 1, which is below average, you can increase it to one-half of 2(rounded up), which is exactly 1. This doesn't work.

olentu
2009-12-18, 12:36 AM
Wait...am I crzy? Doesn't this make the 1d2 crusader unworkable? If you roll a 1, which is below average, you can increase it to one-half of 2(rounded up), which is exactly 1. This doesn't work.

Well as I believe someone said earlier it is the imbued healing feat using the ability granted to people who have the luck domain.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-18, 12:39 AM
Yup.

"...Treat any die roll result of 1 as 2..."

Though that kind of knocks down the idea of using the Luck Devotion as the interrupt, but since the whole filler text deal with Aura of Chaos has been dealt with, yeah, no real ground gained.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-18, 12:39 AM
Wait...am I crzy? Doesn't this make the 1d2 crusader unworkable? If you roll a 1, which is below average, you can increase it to one-half of 2(rounded up), which is exactly 1. This doesn't work.It's Imbued Healing:Luck, from CChamp, not Luck Devotion.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-18, 06:23 AM
Yup.

"...Treat any die roll result of 1 as 2...".

Of course, some people argue (I never argued anything about the brokenness and idiocy of D&D; I just accept it as fact) that since you treat it as a result of 2, and not as if you rolled a 2, Aura of Chaos does not work here, since your dice did not come up with maximum damage.

Zom B
2009-12-18, 06:35 AM
Aura of Chaos:


You can continue to reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total.

That sounds like you can break the loop to me.

AstralFire
2009-12-18, 10:55 AM
:|

Rolling for damage is a player abstraction that takes no time within the game world itself. You can argue that the DM would force the player to never stop rolling, but time does not freeze, nor does it have any in-game effect besides hitting everyone for infinite damage. It's just xeno's paradox.

chiasaur11
2009-12-18, 11:30 AM
:|

Rolling for damage is a player abstraction that takes no time within the game world itself. You can argue that the DM would force the player to never stop rolling, but time does not freeze, nor does it have any in-game effect besides hitting everyone for infinite damage. It's just xeno's paradox.

But with much more punching.

Lamech
2009-12-18, 11:46 AM
Just because you can do something, does not mean to can choose not to do it. For example I can reach a velocity of 1000 miles per hour if I am over a black hole. This does not mean I can just kind of choose to not move. In this case since the first sentence does not give choice the second sentence won't override it.

Also luck devotion works. The roll is increased to a two. Since that doesn't say you must, it presumably doesn't require you to increase the roll. Also I suppose one could rules that it effects the final outcome of the attack. Not each die roll; that would prevent an infinite loop. Except... the maximum possible is... infinity. So your weapon kills on a roll of a one.

And where is the text for whatever lets you reroll ones?

Ryumaru
2009-12-18, 12:07 PM
... damn you. I'm now imagining this guy as an Enlarged Gnome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Blkpqn6s0

... and I want to play it >.>

Emmerask
2009-12-18, 12:36 PM
Of course, some people argue (I never argued anything about the brokenness and idiocy of D&D; I just accept it as fact) that since you treat it as a result of 2, and not as if you rolled a 2, Aura of Chaos does not work here, since your dice did not come up with maximum damage.

This is correct :smallwink:

OMG PONIES
2009-12-18, 12:58 PM
I don't know if this works. As pointed out above, Imbued Healing changes the damage (but not the roll). Luck Devotion changes the roll, but not to the maximum


...For 1 minute, if the result of any damage roll you make is below average, you can increase it to one-half the maximum possible (rounded up). ...

So, if any roll you make is below the average (which is 1), you can increase it to one-half the maximum possible (which is 1) (rounded up [which is 1]).

You round up decimals, not whole integers. 1.0 is 1.0 is 1.0.