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Tyndmyr
2009-12-17, 11:29 PM
So, it's common wisdom that wizards are, at all times, pretty strongly buffed. How ridiculous of a degree can this be taken to?

Lets say...level 9, to get permanency fun in there. Incantatrix is an obvious option, but others probably exist as well...

I'll keep a tally of how many buffs we can get up and keep up for an adventuring day on page 1.

Lets start it off with...

Buffs:
Permanent Detect Magic: Effectively indefinite.
Permanent Read Magic: Effectively indefinite.
Permanent Comprehend Languages: Effectively indefinite.
Permanent Resistance of your choice: Effectively indefinite.
1+ Sonorous Hums. Persisted, preferably. As many as needed to maintain buffs with Duration:Concentration.

Resistance, Superior. +3 saves, 24 hrs. Cast the night before. or, with Extend spell, two nights before.
Greater Mage Armor.+6 AC, 24 hrs. Cast the night before. or, with Extend spell, two nights before.
Heart of Air(extended)
Heart of Water(extended)
Heart of Earth(extended)
Heart of Fire(extended)


Total # of post-casting metamagic applications: 6+ 2xint modifier(3+int for each day. We can presume an int of 26, given 20 starting for a race with +int, 2 level ups, and 4 enhancement). Sooo, 22 total.

We'll need some sick spellcraft, though. Modifier required to auto-succeed:
Level 1: +20
Level 2: +23
Level 3: +26
Level 4: +29
Level 5: +32
Level 6: +35
Level 7: +38

Lets see...
+8 from Int.
+2 synergy from 5 ranks in Knowledge(arcana)
+12 actual skill ranks.
+2 masterwork tool(a bit cheesy again. Availability may vary)
+3 Skill Focus: Spellcraft
----
+27 - We'll automatically make the DCs for modified spell levels of up to 3, and have pretty good odds for up to 6. Persist has a crazy high modifier though. Further cheese may be needed here to maximize persist ability.


Crunch questions:
I see no particular reason why you can't have up multiple Sonorous Hum's, targeting different spells. Cheesy? Absolutely. But it allows us to stack up a ridiculous amount of spells with Duration: Concentration. Strictly speaking, it isn't needed for the permanencied spells, but it makes them more useful.

Is it possible to abuse Persist spell, as per Incantatrix, to persist the same spell over and over again every day? I mean, sure, I know I can cast the night before and persist, but if I can just persist the same spell over and over again, it saves me castings that can be used for 24 hr buffs. It also makes casting divine spells from scrolls, then persisting them attractive.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-17, 11:37 PM
Superior Resistance gives +6 saves iirc.

Zaydos
2009-12-17, 11:46 PM
Is Greater Mager Armor persisted (otherwise it has a duration of 1 hour/level so 9 hours)? If so could incanatrix also extend it and in that case would it count as 10th level slot required for the spellcraft check?
Also what about Persistent Dragonskin (+4 natural armor at Lv 9 and energy resistance 10; even better at 20th where it is +5 and energy resistance 20) it would be a fun spell to have up and I'm sure even better things could be thrown on.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-17, 11:55 PM
Superior Resistance gives +6 saves iirc.

It does, but it's a level six spell. Now, if you can do a rolling persist to keep it active, casting it off a scroll at a lower level is quite practical. Still, helluva spellcraft check.

Come to think of it, I believe you could persist, then extend a spell. Sick adjustment on spell level, but if you can get the spellcraft to pull it off, it'd be crazy. DC is 18+ 3*final spell level after all adjustments. So, 48 with both extend and persist, I believe. Just out of reach on a nat 20 currently, but Im sure there's more ways to increase spellcraft. Magic item, for one.

There's gotta be a spell that boosts spellcraft...only need it active a bit in the evening.

Persistant dragonskin would be nice..also, persisting Mirror Image is godly. Of course, all this stacks up to be a rather intimidating defense.

Tehnar
2009-12-18, 12:09 AM
Persist + Extend does not work. Well it legal, but does nothing. Increasing a duration and then setting it to 24 H is pointless.

Zaydos
2009-12-18, 12:13 AM
But don't you get to apply them in the order you choose? So if you set it at 24 hours and then doubled the duration?

Tehnar
2009-12-18, 12:17 AM
No. Its the same really for empower and maximize. If you apply both to a 10d6 fireball you do 60 + 5d6 damage.

arguskos
2009-12-18, 12:19 AM
No. Its the same really for empower and maximize. If you apply both to a 10d6 fireball you do 60 + 5d6 damage.
Actually, I'm not sure it is. Empower+Maximize have a specific note about how they work together. Persist+Extend does not that I am aware of. If it does, then you are right. If it does not, I think the default is that you can apply them in whatever order is most advantageous to you.

I wonder if ToS calls this out or bans it. :smallconfused:

Ernir
2009-12-18, 12:19 AM
If you have Incantatrix, you may as well get an Item Familiar. And Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) and Divine Insight (Spell Compendium) through Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion). And there's much nastier stuff out there. =/

Really, the moment you said Incantatrix, you won. :smalltongue:

Tehnar
2009-12-18, 12:31 AM
I think there was a reference to it not stacking somewhere. I just can't remember where I found it, and was it official. And my google fu is not strong, and points to my post.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-18, 12:35 AM
Actually, I'm not sure it is. Empower+Maximize have a specific note about how they work together. Persist+Extend does not that I am aware of. If it does, then you are right. If it does not, I think the default is that you can apply them in whatever order is most advantageous to you.

I wonder if ToS calls this out or bans it. :smallconfused:Given that ToS prevents any metamagic reducer reducing below 1, and eliminates several metamagic reducers, and caps spell level at 7, I doubt it's an issue. But yes, Persist+Extend for a 48 hour duration does work. The stacking rules aren't contradicted by either feat, so you can apply them in whatever order you want. :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-18, 12:39 AM
It does, but it's a level six spell. Now, if you can do a rolling persist to keep it active, casting it off a scroll at a lower level is quite practical. Still, helluva spellcraft check.

Come to think of it, I believe you could persist, then extend a spell. Sick adjustment on spell level, but if you can get the spellcraft to pull it off, it'd be crazy. DC is 18+ 3*final spell level after all adjustments. So, 48 with both extend and persist, I believe. Just out of reach on a nat 20 currently, but Im sure there's more ways to increase spellcraft. Magic item, for one.

There's gotta be a spell that boosts spellcraft...only need it active a bit in the evening.

Persistant dragonskin would be nice..also, persisting Mirror Image is godly. Of course, all this stacks up to be a rather intimidating defense.

No need to Persist Superior Resistance. It's already a 24hr duration.

ex cathedra
2009-12-18, 12:48 AM
Perhaps you should examine the Twice Betrayer of Shar for ideas.

Also, I'm quite fond of the Necropolitan Spelldancer + Persistent Spell combination that I devised (it had likely been used before, of course, but I'm unaware of it) for Test of Spite use some time ago.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-18, 03:33 PM
No. Its the same really for empower and maximize. If you apply both to a 10d6 fireball you do 60 + 5d6 damage.

That's a specific exception to the general rule that doesn't apply to extend/persist.

Obviously, extend first would be a fail, but since caster selects order of MM, no worries. Persist, extend. However, the spellcraft check or spell level required to pull that off is insane, though. Arcane thesis is of no help here, since that only modifies a single spell.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-18, 03:36 PM
No need to Persist Superior Resistance. It's already a 24hr duration.

Can't believe I missed that. So yeah...buy a scroll, cast, then extend it.


Im not familiar with the twice betrayer or spelldancer concepts, details? Necropolitan does of course work wonderfully with essentially any build.

Signmaker
2009-12-18, 03:40 PM
Im not familiar with the twice betrayer or spelldancer concepts, details? Necropolitan does of course work wonderfully with essentially any build.

Spelldancer lets you dance for a period of time to apply a meta to a spell. There's a safe amount of spells you can meta, and then afterwards you get exhausted and take con damage, which is easily mitigated. More or less, a single level dip means you have all the persisted buffs you want.

Douglas
2009-12-18, 03:43 PM
See Team Solars in my sig. It's a whole party, not just one wizard, but, well... Stack that pile of buffs on a single normal flea, and it would laugh at the Tarrasque's feeble attempts to hurt it or escape from it.

Keld Denar
2009-12-18, 03:47 PM
Twice Betrayer of Shar uses the Initiate of Mystra feat to be able to retain full casting while surrounded by an AMF, and the Occular Spell feat in Lords of Madness to effectively set all spells to a "fixed" range (IE 60 feet), thus allowing you to DMM Persist EVERY spell in the game possible, including the above mentioned AMF. Now you combine that with Greater Iron Guard to protect you from non-magical metal weapons, and given the fact that AMF makes all weapons around you non-magical, you are effectively protected from all non-wood weapons.

Tack on a few other tricks and you are virtually invulnerable.

But thats more of a cleric thing than a wizard thing...

jiriku
2009-12-18, 03:49 PM
It's fairly trivial at 9th level to buff your caster level by 2 (magic tattoo + ioun stone should do it), so you can permanency arcane sight, darkvision, see invisibility, and tongues.

Edit: Also, a basic wondrous item granting +10 to Spellcraft checks is entirely reaasonable for a buff-focused 9th level wizard.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-18, 03:50 PM
That's a rather sick combo...now granted, you can't pull that off by level 9, but initiate of Mystra isn't a bad class to begin with. Probably can be comboed with incantatrix for a wizard version of same.

olentu
2009-12-18, 05:31 PM
That's a rather sick combo...now granted, you can't pull that off by level 9, but initiate of Mystra isn't a bad class to begin with. Probably can be comboed with incantatrix for a wizard version of same.

Initiate of Mystra is probably referring to the feat which as I can not remember the text can not say what exactly it requires or allows.

Douglas
2009-12-18, 05:33 PM
Initiate of Mystra is a feat, and it specifically requires 3 levels of cleric (as in, it specifies the class by name) as a prerequisite.