Recreating a soul

[Optimystik]

So I was thinking about the truly irreversible way in which the Snarl kills its victims. Destroying something's soul seems like one of the few truly one way streets in D&D.

Or is it? Is there a way in D&D to restore a destroyed or devoured soul?

The closest I've found to the mechanics behind restoring a destroyed soul come from Tome of Magic: The Unname spell destroys a creature's body and soul in an instant by speaking their Truename. Reversing it requires giving the creature a new Truename with the Ritual of Renaming. I doubt Truename magic exists in OotS, but a similar principle (creating a replacement identity that the universe could anchor their soul energy to) could apply to the Snarl's victims.

Would Wish work? I doubt Miracle would, or the gods would be able to restore the fallen East. Any other ideas?

[magic9mushroom]

Intervention of an overgod perhaps? I don't think normal deities get the ability.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I think it's even worse than destroying one's soul.

The strip says that It UNDOES your existence.

The difference here is big, because if your soul would be destroyed, a powerful epic, or deific magic could build your soul again, but if your existence is un-done, there is nothing we can do about it, your existence will be erased even from the memory of the gods.

[Athaniar]

If that is the case, how come they remember and can talk about and honor Soon's wife/girlfriend and Kraagor? And the "Greek" gods, for that matter?

[magic9mushroom]

I think it's even worse than destroying one's soul.

The strip says that It UNDOES your existence.

The difference here is big, because if your soul would be destroyed, a powerful epic, or deific magic could build your soul again, but if your existence is un-done, there is nothing we can do about it, your existence will be erased even from the memory of the gods.

Well, no, your existence is not erased from memory. This should be blindingly obvious given that Shojo could name the Gods of the East.

@Xavius: Kraagor wasn't killed by the Snarl, but by the rift being sealed while he was too close.

[Optimystik]

Exactly, and if there is a memory of you, there must be something left to build from.

True Resurrection revives by "sifting through the fabric of the plane." Memories would count, I think.

We don't know exactly how Kraagor died. The rift was open, and he was alive (with Soon yelling to close it); next panel, the rift was closed and he was dead. At the time, he was apparently holding back the Snarl, which could have easily punched through him between panels.

However he died, it's a safe bet his soul was damaged/destroyed, as epic-level adventurers could easily pay for his resurrection if it wasn't. So he is still relevant for this topic.

[Larkspur]

Exactly, and if there is a memory of you, there must be something left to build from.

True Resurrection revives by "sifting through the fabric of the plane." Memories would count, I think.

But doesn't it sift through the fabric of the plane(s) to get all the bits of you that are scattered around- your molecules, and soul-chunks that have been attached to different dretches and so on?

If you were actually excised from existence, there would be no way to sift anything out, because there would be nothing to retrieve. Memories alone wouldn't count; the spell acts on actual physical/metaphysical components of the person who once lived.

That said, from Blackwing we have reason to believe that the Snarl doesn't actually unmake people. It may just sequester them on a plane inside itself. (Which removes them from the known universe, thus making them appear unmade, but has no effect on the timestream, so their deeds and memories remain.)

So the question becomes, is the plane inside the Snarl accessible through normal magic (Plane Shift, True Resurrection, and so on)? Since Zeus et al. haven't just Plane Shifted home, I'm guessing no. True Resurrection would therefore fail.

Wish lets you create things de novo, so that might work, but I think you'd run a strong risk of resurrecting your image of the person rather than the person themselves- eg. if Roy Wished Haley back to lfe we'd get "Greedy Haley" rather than "Ransom-paying Haley" because he doesn't know about her dad.

[Optimystik]

But doesn't it sift through the fabric of the plane(s) to get all the bits of you that are scattered around- your molecules, and soul-chunks that have been attached to different dretches and so on?

If you were actually excised from existence, there would be no way to sift anything out, because there would be nothing to retrieve. Memories alone wouldn't count; the spell acts on actual physical/metaphysical components of the person who once lived.

"Actual metaphysical components" is paradoxical. The denizens of a plane are part of that plane; their memories of those individuals are thus also part of that plane. A memory is as metaphysical as it gets.


That said, from Blackwing we have reason to believe that the Snarl doesn't actually unmake people. It may just sequester them on a plane inside itself. (Which removes them from the known universe, thus making them appear unmade, but has no effect on the timestream, so their deeds and memories remain.)

I suspect that what you're saying will turn out to be true, and that the Snarl's victims were not truly killed. That's not what I'm asking about here.

My question is purely hypothetical - if in fact their souls were destroyed, would there be a way to bring them back in D&D? Not "Are Mijung, Kraagor and World 1 truly gone?"


Wish lets you create things de novo, so that might work, but I think you'd run a strong risk of resurrecting your image of the person rather than the person themselves- eg. if Roy Wished Haley back to lfe we'd get "Greedy Haley" rather than "Ransom-paying Haley" because he doesn't know about her dad.

I disagree - the spell might start from your mental impression of the person, but in the process of reconstituting the individual would draw upon impressions from a variety of sources, including any records of them left in other omnipresent locations, such as the Astral Plane.

[Larkspur]

"Actual metaphysical components" is paradoxical.

I meant their soul, which in D&D is an actual object, although not a physical one. I dunno how else one would describe it.

I agree the memories are accessible to the spell if it wants them, but I don't think they're what True Resurrection is looking for.


I disagree - the spell might start from your mental impression of the person, but in the process of reconstituting the individual would draw upon impressions from a variety of sources, including any records of them left in other omnipresent locations, such as the Astral Plane.

How would it know to do that, though? Your Wish is necessarily limited by your own memories- the person you remember is the person you're trying to get back. Suppose, for instance, that the friend you're trying to retrieve is really a traitor. You're not Wishing to get a traitor, you're Wishing to get your friend back. Wouldn't retrieving the real person violate your Wish?

And how omniscient is the Astral Plane? In OotS, at least, the devas don't seem to have records of people's thoughts, only their deeds. So you'd still only be able to create a shell of the person, not their innermost thoughts- granted a shell that had been observed from many different angles, and thus probably a fairly accurate facsimile.

[WildPyre]

The answer is quite simple... the only problem would be where to get that much oil of ipecac... and cleaning up after. :smalleek:

[multilis]

Your gods deceive you!

Snarl does not destroy, Snarl Saves!

You do not need to recreate "soul" to see loved one again, you merely have to enter a rift to visit them. (They are all quite alive and happy in a world without war or old age, a world without all the petty violence the gods inflict on you here in the name of "XP")

Join us. Learn about the love of Snarl and the peace that awaits you in the better world.

- Holey Brotherhood

[Zeful]

My question is purely hypothetical - if in fact their souls were destroyed, would there be a way to bring them back in D&D? Not "Are Mijung, Kraagor and World 1 truly gone?"

If Shojo's right, then the gods undoing all creation erased the people of world one, and were used to build world 2, and everything on it. So, their not truly gone in the sense of totally gone, but they are truly gone as unconstructable.

[Icendoan]

- Holey Brotherhood

Pun intended?

Icen

[TriForce]

Personally, i never seen any rules or guidelines for recreating a soul, i as a DM, would probably not allow it either, since it defies any concept of "final death" that i feel should be present, no matter how minor. Destroying a soul is extremely hard, so if it could be undone, it sort of defies the purpose of bein able to destroy it in the first place.

However, if it SHOULD be possible, it would not be something that could be done by mere mortal magic, and probably not by normal gods either. id say only THE overgod or overpower should be able to do something as powerful as that, and not on a whim either


Since its not in any rule, id say make some ad hoc rules about it

[TheSummoner]

Pun intended?

Icen

Not a pun, an existing group that the Scribbles fought... just like Baron Pineapple.

[Teddy]

The closest I get is the description of the Bag of Devouring, which utterly anhillates the body and prevents it from being resurrected again. While it doesn't state that it destroys the soul, it's still only a 50% chance to revive a consumed creature with a wish, miracle or true resurrection, and if it doesn't succede, then they're gone and can't be revived through mortal magic.

Now, unmade characters are different, so I probably wouldn't allow such a high success rate for them...

[Milandros]

I agree - in my game a destroyed soul is it. Fin. Zero. "Re-creating" the soul would be basically creating a new soul (or finding a new infant one) and patterning it based on impressions and memories. Creating a simulacrum, as it were, or a holodeck-style simulation.

Of course, there is a way a cunning group of PCs could get around it, through time-travel magic and being damnable careful not to violate causality. A method would be to create a new empty body, then reach back in time and rip the soul out of their target an instant before the Snarl (or whatever) did it for them. Thus, from the original timeline's point of view, nothing would have changed. Pop the soul into the recreated body, and there we go. The sould was never destroyed in the first place.