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View Full Version : Synergy between Warlock and Sorcerer?



Narazil
2009-12-18, 10:37 AM
Short version: Is there any?

Long version:
So, I was invited to join this campaign, with a DM I know next to nothing about. Coolios, I roll up a level 1 Sorcerer, setting's Forgotten Realms: Amn.
I show up for a session somewhere in the league of 24 hours, and quickly find out I'm kinda blessed with suck. Appearently, he gives you class levels depending on what you've been focusing on (fair enough), which I'm not really told until I'm level 5 and I cast as a level 3 Sorcerer.
My character's now a Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple* 1/Skillmonkey** 1/Warlock 1.
* Dragon Disciple is a homebrewed prestige class with random mutations. I've recieved a total of 44 mutations with various effects, some being +1 CHA, +5 Fire Resistance, +1 Sorcerer caster level, ect.

** Skillmonkey basicly gave me no Save, BAB or HP progression, but gave me a lot of skillpoints.

And Warlock. I dealed with a very old Succubus, and.. She liked it. And thought giving me gifts would be awesome.

Anyways, now I'm level 6, and I cast as a level 4 Sorcerer. I've been allowed entry into a dual-progression Warlock/Sorcerer Theurge once I get Lesser Invocations, but it'll stop me from getting 9-level spells pre-Epic.

My other option is to take another homebrew class, called Focus Caster. Basicly, it's 2 levels of Sorcerer or 3 levels of Warlock in 1 class level, but it doesn't give BAB or save progression, and gives 0+int mod skill points and 0+con mod HP. The HP hit isn't that bad, my CON mod is +6, but skill points are hella important.

The rest of the party are pretty optimized so far: an Ubercharger and a DMM Cleric I know if. I know we're going to be facing pretty optimized encounters. Is there any way I get can reach their power level?


.. Man, that ended up being a lot of text.

dsmiles
2009-12-18, 10:42 AM
There's a PrC for Warlock/Sorcerers. In Complete Mage, I think.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-18, 10:44 AM
There's a PrC for Warlock/Sorcerers. In Complete Mage, I think.

Barring using an item to qualify for it early, using Loredrake, and/or Greater Draconic Right of Passage, there's actually more synergy between Wizard and Warlock due to the wizard retaining eventual 9th level spells pre-epic.

Burley
2009-12-18, 10:55 AM
First: The DM gets to pick what classes you take at each level? Does he get to decide what actions you take in-game, as well?

Second: The Eldritch Theurge is an awesome PrC, IMO. Adding fireball onto your Eldritch blast is an awesome way to blast.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-18, 10:56 AM
I once was in a gestalt party that had a warlock//sorcerer (Formerly a binder, but the human died). He was the oddest character. His sorcery was from a Demonic Dragon in his ancestry, but gave him all sorts of feats. He later multiclassed into Eldritch Theurge (I belive is what its called). He kicked all forms of ***. Granted, he was a Chaos Gnome with a later obtained Fiendish and anarchic templates, but he was a force to be reckoned with.

As for your situation, I say go for it!

Tavar
2009-12-18, 11:10 AM
If they're as optimized as you say, no. You have an incredibly suboptimal build, and none of your choices are that good. Seems like you've got the short end of the stick, this time.

One question: if he chooses your classes, how did the other 2 get to be so good?

Optimystik
2009-12-18, 11:12 AM
For gestalt, I would go Warlock//Spellthief myself. Nothing like Sneak Attacking with Eldritch Blast.

Eldritch Theurge is indeed powerful, but don't go in with Sorcerer. Use Sublime Chord instead - that way you get 9ths, as well as Dark Invocations.

Narazil
2009-12-18, 11:12 AM
If they're as optimized as you say, no. You have an incredibly suboptimal build, and none of your choices are that good. Seems like you've got the short end of the stick, this time.

One question: if he chooses your classes, how did the other 2 get to be so good?
I'm going a very old campaign. The class rule has been added recently - DM chooses the class based on what you've been doing. If you've joined the City Guard and done Guard duty, you'll probably get a level of Fighter, ect.

taltamir
2009-12-18, 11:16 AM
That "focused caster" class sounds really nice.
You don't get much saves anyways, your BAB is only used for ranged touch attacks, and your HP should be used... rarely.
Than again, you can't under estimate HP, I always give equal priority to a con item as I do for main casting item...

Ask him to make some sort of custom class for you that is a sorcerer/warlock hybrid and let you rebuilt into it, instead of multi classing your sorcerer.

Narazil
2009-12-18, 11:21 AM
That "focused caster" class sounds really nice.
You don't get much saves anyways, your BAB is only used for ranged touch attacks, and your HP should be used... rarely.
Than again, you can't under estimate HP, I always give equal priority to a con item as I do for main casting item...

Ask him to make some sort of custom class for you that is a sorcerer/warlock hybrid and let you rebuilt into it, instead of multi classing your sorcerer.
Doubt I'd be able to persuade him. I *could* take 3 levels of Focus Caster Sorcerer, which would give me +6 Sorcerer levels of sorcerer casting. That'd make me cast as a level 10 Sorcerer at level ECL 9. My saves, BAB and skill set would suck, though. HP isn't that bad, I already get 6 HP per level, the d4 is nice but not really needed.

Actually, 3 Focus Caster Sorcerer and 1 Focus Caster Warlock would let me into Theurge casting as a level 10 Sorcerer by level 11, which wouldn't be too bad. I'd even get 9th level spells by level, what, 19?
It would make me lose out on 3d4+1d6 HP, all save and BAB progression, and 8 skill points or so.

taltamir
2009-12-18, 11:38 AM
taking 3 levels of focused sorcerer for level 10 sorc casting at ECL9 as a multi class would sacrifice you 2.5+Con HP, 1 fort, 1 ref, 1.5 will, rounded down. For epic level spells, at level 9!
Frankly I have heard of that varient type before and it is completely broken to allow.

I am more interested in the 1 for 3 level castings on warlock actually... It can make you reach epic casting faster. Does he give multiclass penalties? Take a 1 level dip in monk for +2 to all saves and nice HP. Do 1 level dips for saves and HP while taking +2 / +3 to caster level and no HP and saves usually.

Although, you can get magic to take care of that slack in theory... I would be careful not to overdo it.

Narazil
2009-12-18, 11:48 AM
taking 3 levels of focused sorcerer for level 10 sorc casting at ECL9 as a multi class would sacrifice you 2.5+Con HP, 1 fort, 1 ref, 1.5 will, rounded down. For epic level spells, at level 9!
Frankly I have heard of that varient type before and it is completely broken to allow.
I think you misunderstood. One level or Focus Caster equals 2 levels of Sorcerer caster progression. 3 levels of Focus Caster = 6 levels of Sorcerer, but without BAB, saves ect.
So, I cast as a level 4 Sorcerer at the moment. Add 3 levels of Focus caster, and now I cast as a level 10 Sorcerer.

Tavar
2009-12-18, 11:50 AM
Right, and at the moment you're a ECL 6 character, add 3 levels and you're ECL 9, and cast as a level 10 sorcerer.

awa
2009-12-18, 11:53 AM
ive run slightly similar games where you improve in what you used but always in skill based systems never class based.

Is he picking your feats to? Will he be picking all your classes from now on?

Narazil
2009-12-18, 11:56 AM
ive run slightly similar games where you improve in what you used but always in skill based systems never class based.

Is he picking your feats to? Will he be picking all your classes from now on?
I might've phrased it wrong. I can "choose" what class I get, if I just train/focus on doing that kind of stuff. If I only use Eldritch Blast in combat, and never casting spells, I will probably get a level of Warlock. If I deal with a Demon for more powers, Warlock aswell. If I use both spells and Blast, I can probably choose.
Feats are of my own choice, within reasonable limits.

taltamir
2009-12-18, 11:59 AM
this still shafts you hardcore... casters do NOT stack like fighting classes do.

And why does dealing with a demon have to give you warlock levels? why can't a demon give you a boost to your sorcerous powers?

Narazil
2009-12-18, 12:02 PM
this still shafts you hardcore... casters do NOT stack like fighting classes do.

And why does dealing with a demon have to give you warlock levels? why can't a demon give you a boost to your sorcerous powers?
I know different kinds of caster doesn't stack, but being level 20 and casting as a 20 sorcerer / 14 Warlock (if my very simple math is correct) won't suck, I'll just be the world's most glassy cannon.

And dealing with Demons doesn't have to do that. Got two magic items from it, aswell. Gifts (read: Abilities) are just done with Warlock levels.

taltamir
2009-12-18, 12:07 PM
I know, i meant abilities could be granted via extra levels to your current class. Demoic power can synnergize; otherwise people wouldn't bother bartering for it.

if you can get sorc 20/warlock 14 by level 20... then do so...

Heck, consider focusing entirely on your warlock, your DM seems to love giving you warlock levels, so you might be better aiming for epic warlock before level 20. And warlock is a very fun blaster.
Spear shape (long range), chain shape (affect multiple targets), and vitriolic blast (ignore SR, ignore save, do acid damage) are lovely.

Person_Man
2009-12-18, 01:12 PM
Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: For any class with abilities that scale up as you gain levels (be they magic, incarnum, binding, maneuvers, whatever) anything less then full progression of that ability generally hurts the build in the long run. For example, access to 3rd level spells is more powerful then access to 2nd level spells and Least Invocations.

However at certain ECLs some and for certain builds, multiclassing gives you more power. For example, a Warblade 2/Totemist 2 is generally more powerful then a Totemist 4. But this is generally only true for short campaigns. A Warblade 4/Totemist 4 is going to be weaker then a Warblade 8 or Totemist 8.

I personally don't see a way that Warlock/Sorcerer would be a good combination at any ECL though.

Optimystik
2009-12-18, 02:02 PM
I personally don't see a way that Warlock/Sorcerer would be a good combination at any ECL though.

They aren't - that's why you use Sublime Chord instead, and Eldritch Theurge.

However, In the OP he mentions some "focused caster" homebrew that nets him multiple sorcerer and warlock progression level per character level, at the cost of his BAB and saves. With that it might be worth it, though the loss of saves would hurt.

Losing BAB also hurts for EB.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-19, 02:08 PM
this still shafts you hardcore... casters do NOT stack like fighting classes do.

And why does dealing with a demon have to give you warlock levels? why can't a demon give you a boost to your sorcerous powers?

To the first statement: this is entirely true

next: It doesn't just include Demons. pretty much any outsider can make some1 a warlock. its just demons are the "norm"

Last: Fiend Heritage feats. Replaces the dragon ones. As can be said, any creature that can assume a human form and has innate spellcasting can "create" sorcerers

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-19, 06:05 PM
Suggestion:

Write sorcerer level 6 on your sheet. Pick spells and feats accordingly. Ignore the DM when he tells you you have levels in other things.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-19, 11:56 PM
Suggestion:

Write sorcerer level 6 on your sheet. Pick spells and feats accordingly. Ignore the DM when he tells you you have levels in other things.

I'd almost be inclined to agree with Pharaoh, save for one thing:

I'd actually say go wizard and then enter Incantrix. Can't go wrong with Metamagic Abuse, eh?

My idea: Necropolitan Grey Elf Wizard 5/Incantrix 1