3.5 Archer build

[BooNL]

So, from what I know archers aren't the most effective characters around. Regardless, I'd like to know how to build an effective one.

Power level should be somewhere around Tier 3, that's more than powerful enough.

What are good ways to make an archer? Simply a scout and running really fast? A crossbow-sniping rogue?
Can the Arcane Archer be made effective?

Also, how would you build an archer in gestalt? Assume ~lvl 5, with as limited spellcasting as possible.

[ex cathedra]

So, from what I know archers aren't the most effective characters around. Regardless, I'd like to know how to build an effective one.

Power level should be somewhere around Tier 3, that's more than powerful enough.

What are good ways to make an archer? Simply a scout and running really fast? A crossbow-sniping rogue?
Can the Arcane Archer be made effective?

Also, how would you build an archer in gestalt? Assume ~lvl 5, with as limited spellcasting as possible.

Limited spellcasting? That's too bad. Hum, let's see. Hopefully, one of the following should suit you :

Cleric 5 // Ranger 2 / Soulknife 3, immediately taking Cleric 6 / Soulbow 1 at the next level.

Scout 4 / Ranger 1 // Something. I would suggest Archivist 5, but you have spellcasting qualms.

[arguskos]

For archers in general, I am a big fan of Mystic Ranger 7/Cragtop Archer 5/Mystic Ranger +. This gives you access to the Ranger archery feats ASAP, which, in my opinion, rock so freaking hard. (Mystic Ranger is a variant from Dragon, you can get it for free in the Crystal Keep Class PDF, it gives you slightly better Ranger casting that starts at level 1.)

For a non-casting archer... well, let's be honest: you're screwed. If you want to do it anyways, I'd probably suggest a Rogue or Scout, just so you can get some precision damage in. Honestly, the best non-casting archer I've seen is the Hand Crossbow wielding dude, who can get lots of precision damage from 60 ft with crossbows. Can't recall the exact build though.

[AirGuitarGod32]

So, from what I know archers aren't the most effective characters around. Regardless, I'd like to know how to build an effective one.

Power level should be somewhere around Tier 3, that's more than powerful enough.

What are good ways to make an archer? Simply a scout and running really fast? A crossbow-sniping rogue?
Can the Arcane Archer be made effective?

Also, how would you build an archer in gestalt? Assume ~lvl 5, with as limited spellcasting as possible.

simple:

Race: Wild Elf
Class: Ranger/Scout//Initiate of the Bow
Feats: Brachiacton, Ranged tree (Ranger), the Ranger/Scout stack feat

Leap from tree to tree, sniping people. Simple, yet effective

[Chrono22]

This is a homebrewed base class arcane archer. Very little optimizing is needed to make an effective character with it.
http://kingdoms-of-illuria.googlegroups.com/web/Arcane_Archer.doc?gda=tUO61UMAAAAWpB19bKEY-ZrG-wmf8JhOs6dR5Q0CPSysJ39Y-0amMPhYKvg2TslCPfE8De5-NhIytiJ-HdGYYcPi_09pl8N7FWLveOaWjzbYnpnkpmxcWg

[Mushroom Ninja]

If Homebrew is allowed, the Warmarked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7503813&postcount=5) used in ToS can be pretty sweet.

[gorfnab]

Can the Arcane Archer be made effective?

For the most part not really, but really just 2 levels of it is enough for most casting builds. Something like Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 (requires Elf with the Militia (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Militia) feat) can be a decent caster and archer.



Also, how would you build an archer in gestalt? Assume ~lvl 5, with as limited spellcasting as possible.

Like the previous posts have said, a Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0) build is probably your best bet.

[Draz74]

Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter can be Tier 3 if built well. If Scout is the dominant side of the build, it could even have little/no spellcasting.

Gestalt with no spellcasting? Now, that's tricky to make work well. Scout/Ranger//Swordsage, perhaps?

[Mushroom Ninja]

Can you take swift hunter in gestalt? Although it's not a dual-progression PrC, it's awefully similar...

[RagnaroksChosen]

I've seen some decent warrior or psi warrior builds...


I would do for non gastult or one side of the gestult:
fighter 2/psi warrior 2/feat rogue 2
Taking
eaither
{
weapon focus xbow
rapid reload
point blank
rapid
weapon specilisation xbow
crossbow sniper
precise shot
}
or
{
weapon focus long bow
point blank
rapid
weapon spec
multishot
precise shot
far shot
}
don't for get to take ranged mastery ...

+3/+4 isn't bad


Also highly recomend the collision enchantment for +5 damage.

[arguskos]

That's a question: would the Soulbound Weapon alternate class feature of the Psy War let you take Soulbow with a Psy War? If so, that'd be a fun archer. Psy War 5/Soulbow 10/Psy War 6-10. :smallamused:

[subject42]

Do you allow Dragon or Third Party sources?

If so, I believe that both Dragon and the Iron Kingdoms setting have feats that let you apply Dex to ranged damage, with similar prerequisites.

[Ashiel]

Surprisingly I find Fighters make fairly decent archers, though Duskblades can go strait into Arcane Archer without multiclassing, and they get a nice channel style ability for both melee and ranged in that case.

I've found for a good archer, from a damage perspective, requires a high strength and a composite longbow. For a dedicated archer, an 18 str can benefit you more than a 18 dex. This is mostly true at later levels, when the archer's bonuses to damage slows down compared to their power-attacking brethren.

With archery, effects such as Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization work better due to your ability to full-attack more often. With feats such as Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot, you can push more attacks with far more accuracy and ignore a lot of penalties. With a seeking bow you can ignore concealment and miss chances, even from effects such as blur or displacement. You can easily bypass damage reductions by carrying a small golf-bag of different arrows (silvered, cold-iron, adamantine, etc).

I've also heard there is a weapon enhancement (+2) that gives you infinite ammunition with your respective weapon. I forget which book or the name of it, but it was mentioned on these boards a while back. Maybe someone else can come up with what it was.

Here's an example of what a 10th level fighter could do with a bow. Assuming 18 strength, a 16 dex:
Feats - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow). Optional feats include stuff like Farshot, Many Shot, or Shot on the Run.

Equipment:
+1 Seeking Composite Longbow (mighty +4): 8000gp + MW Weapon
Bracers of Archery: 5000gp (eventually you'll want the greater version for 25,000gp)

You'll have an attack bonus of: +14/+14/+9 with Rapid Shot. +15/+15/+10 if within 30ft due to Point Blank Shot. Each hit will deal 1d8+7, or +8 within 30ft. Assuming you full attack each round, you should be able to pull off a good average of 2d8+14 against fairly stalwart enemies, with an extra 1d8+7 on anyone the +9 can hit reliably (or by chance). Also, you can do this at long range, effectively full-attacking each round while the enemy closes in, while ignoring cover, concealment, and penalties for shooting into melee.

If you party's item crafter (assuming you have one) can make you your equipment, you might be able to squeeze a few more enhancement into it, or get a greater bracer of archery to increase your attack and damage by a further +1/+1.

Also, if your can get flame arrow and greater magic weapon cast on your bow it can help out there too.

Due to the high strength requirements for extra damage from the composite bows; you should also be decent with a 2 handed weapon as a backup melee option, so you're decent in melee too. Picking up Power Attack isn't a bad idea in this case if you can.

I'm actually fairly fond of the Duskblade/Arcane Archer for gishy melee/ranged magic hybrid. It's pretty cool, really.

[Grifthin]

Crossbows are also fun and if you are playing a multi limbed race (4 arms+) then using a 4 crossbows at a time can be hilariously fun.

[Keld Denar]

Tempest Stormwind wrote up a really awesome redux of the Marshall using ToB to create the Sublime Marshall. Combine that with Fax Celestis' Falling Star discipline, and you have a pretty awesome party buffer/archer without using spellcasting.

A bit of homebrew, but nonetheless effective and fun.

[Ashiel]

Actually, in regards to your previous questions. For a level 5 gestalt...

I'd go Fighter 4/Ranger 1 + Duskblade 5. You'll have good HP, strong saves (great fortitude, and good reflex and will), a full BAB which helps for full attacking, the duskblade levels qualify you for arcane archer as well as granting a few clever options. You can also serve as a backup healer due to your ranger level, which helps a lot.

The fighter levels will get you the feats you will want and need, and specialization is pretty good with ranged weapons because with archery you want lots of shots and good +x bonuses.

Alternatively, drop ranger for barbarian, for +10ft of fast movement (since you won't want to wear heavy armor most of the time anyway) and rage. The rage sort of takes a lot from your casting abilities, but it never hurts to have options. You'll end up with much weaker reflex saves with this method though.

It might be worth doing it like this:

Fighter 4 / Ranger 2 / Duskblade 4, which can get you decent saves and the ranger's combat style (archery) to help with the feats. Then begin picking up a level of barbarian later for fast movement. If you can also pick of Speed of Thought, you can effectively "kite" a number of enemies (you've got +20ft of movement speed this way) by running and shooting.

Once you go into arcane archer, you could easily get to duskblade 20, arcane archer 10, which would make for a great fast moving medium armored spell-sword that channels magic through both his great-big-weapon and sharpshooting bow.

[Pluto]

If you want minimum casting and actual archery (y'know... with a bow), I'd recommend Scout/Cloistered Cleric//Ranger/Peerless Archer.

Peerless Archer is in Silver Marches. It gives full BA, power attack with ranged weapons, the ability to shoot in combat without provoking AoOs and 4d6 ranged Sneak Attack.

Scout//Ranger is a nice combination, even if Swift Hunter isn't ruled to help multiclassing in gestalt. The ability to apply Skirmish damage to Undead and Spellcasters is invaluable. Constructs and Plants are okay, too.

Cloistered Cleric is there to sacrifice Turning and Domains to generate as many daily instances of Travel Devotion as possible. Use of Cleric wands doesn't hurt either. Place it on the Scout side past level 3 so you can qualify for Swift Hunter at level 3 and Greater Manyshot at level 6.

(I know multiple Travel Devotions and Greater Manyshot are redundant, but Gestalt is often used for endurance games. No matter how high the per-day limit for TD is, a character should be prepared for more).

Sources of the important components:

Scout: Complete Adventurer
Greater Manyshot: Expanded Psionics Handbook
Peerless Archer: Silver Marches
Swift Hunter/Improved Skirmish: Complete Scoundrel
Travel Devotion: Complete Champion
Cloistered Cleric: Unearthed Arcana
Favored Enemy (Arcanist): Complete Mage


edit:
Silver Marches, not Marshes.

[Eldariel]

Few shells I like:

- Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10: For Dancing Mongoose/Raging Mongoose/Time Stands Still Multi-Attack Mayhem
- Rogue 3/Swordsage 1 (late, for Dancing Mongoose)/Swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw: For Sneak Attack (plus Sniper's Shot UMDd) mayhem
- Cloistered Cleric 1/Mystic Ranger 15/Scout 4 or Mystic Ranger 17/Scout 3: For massive Swift Huntery with all the Ranger-goodies; Cloistered Cleric-version uses Travel Devotion while Mystic Ranger-version goes around with Greater Manyshot
- Factotum 11/Chameleon 9: Like with everything else, this makes a fine archer. Especially notable is Manyshot + Cunning Surge, though that's only doable on short ranges.

If you have access to 3.0 material (most importantly, Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild], Order of the Bow Initiate [Sword & Fist; this is the good version] and Peerless Archer [Silver Marches]), I'd write up a bunch of builds but they'd be mostly redundant with Ksb Snow Owl's excellent archery build compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0). There's also Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.40) that WILL be finished some day.

Oh, and Psionic archers are nice too; there are some very interesting things you can do with Fell Shot, Manyshot, few powers and such. And of course, straight Archivists and Clerics are excellent, as is Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4, but I understood you didn't want casters so I'm not extrapolating there.


And Gestalt, honestly, just pick up two synergistic sides and combine them. Archivist//Eternal Blade Archer is an excellent combination, as is Swift Hunter + Factotum. I sketched both out in the Gestalt Build Challenge: Home on the Range(d) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74764).

Specifically, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053887&postcount=52) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4061832&postcount=63). I used Erudite since they're slightly better at acquiring whatever you need than Archivists, but close enough.

I didn't win the competition though; the winner was IMHO a rather unimaginative and inefficient combination of Swift Hunter and Eternal Blade Archer. The other builds should prove interesting to read; I kinda liked the ability stack of the Sonic Arrow of Death for example.

[ericgrau]

As for the arcane archer:
Arcane archer > cleric archer > fighter archer > arcane archer. Wtf? Exactly. People usually compare a buffed cleric to an unbuffed fighter (sometimes adding more buffing rounds than you could possible have, but that's a big tangent). Then in other threads they compare a buffed fighter to the arcane archer. So really it's a matter of whether or not you have a party cleric or wizard to greater magic weapon you.

A rogue with greater invisibility or a ring of blinking or etc. will do great at high levels. At lower levels you need to win initiative and then you only tag enemies on round 1 and maybe the surprise round if you're sneaky. Still ok, but only b/c you have skillmonkeying to fall back on. At level 5 or so I'd get a full BAB class with rapid shot and a masterwork composite bow, unless you think it'll be a long running campaign. Get gloves of dex +2 and in a level or so lesser bracers of archery for another +1 to hit. Get cold iron, silver and adamantine arrows. Beyond that you can't afford much more than +1 armor for now. Beg the party wizard for a flame arrow, explaining that after not too many arrows you'll outpace a fireball. But only on dungeon crawls; during wilderness travel it doesn't last long enough.

[Eldariel]

As for the arcane archer:
Arcane archer > cleric archer > fighter archer > arcane archer. Wtf? Exactly. People usually compare a buffed cleric to an unbuffed fighter (sometimes adding more buffing rounds than you could possible have, but that's a big tangent). Then in other threads they compare a buffed fighter to the arcane archer. So really it's a matter of whether or not you have a party cleric or wizard to greater magic weapon you.

The buff rounds are a fair point (and in Core, Cleric Archer indeed has trouble as there's the MAD with lacking Zen Archery abound alongside the desire to cast 2-3 buffs for each fight when you can only Quicken one), but the buffs castable on other characters are considered Zero-Sum since both sides are expected to have the same buffs in those regards making them meaningless for the comparison.

In a case such as AA vs. Fighter Archer though, they suddenly become relevant since AA's primary class feature is negated by a level 3 spell. Hell, if AA were a real arcane archer (that is, a gish capable of both, archery and casting), he could just cast said spell himself. Of course, since Arcane Archer is pretty much the worst-written PrC ever, that's not possible.

[jseah]

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, according to crystal keep, #310 has a targeteer variant which could be part of a sniper build.

The sniper "feat" allows you to sacrifice one shot in a full attack (ie. the lowest AB one) to add +1 to the critical threat range of the first shot. You can do this for the rest of the shots if you so wish.
Which could potentially be +5 or more to the threat range. (!!)

You could then pile as many critical triggering abilities and threat range multiplying abilities to that shot as you could stuff in since if it hit, it'll likely crit.