Etiquette When Dealing with the DM

[SpikeFightwicky]

I'm usually the DM in my RP group, and as such, I usually know the system rules quite well. But that's not exactly the problem.

The problem is when someone else tries their hand at DMing, and I notice there's something they're not doing correctly. Back in 3.5, it usually comes up with stuff like grappling, gazes, etc... Sometimes, though, it'll be something on a monster stat that the DM's not using correctly. When it comes down to stuff like this, I sometimes correct the DM, but always regret it in hindsight (I feel like I should just let the DM learn on their own without interupting them, or making it seem like I'm undermining them). Most often, if the DM complains about a monster not performing very well, I'll say something after the fight (They should have been power attacking, they shouldn't have landed, etc...), but that usually seems (in my mind) to be condescending and know-it-all-ish. If I keep quiet, most of the other players don't know rules interactions as well as I do, so they don't notice the DM's doing something wrong. It also causes confusion if I DM again, and those same rule interactions come up, and the previous DM says something like "Well.... why didn't you tell me it worked like that when I was DMing?"

Bottom line is, I don't want the DM quitting because they get frustrated that they're not challenging the party because they're not playing the monsters optimally (something that comes more with experience), and I don't want the DM to have "well if you know everything, go ahead and DM, I quit" type thoughts or actions. Is there a more diplomatic way to go about 'helping' a DM without seeming like a complete tool? Most of the times the DMs have given up because the party beats the encounter too easily (due to less than stellar tactics on the DM's part), or they send something of an overly high CR after we mop the floor with lower CR monsters and it ends in a TPK (with the DM quitting in frustration because they can't get the hang of it).

I think another issue is that my group isn't full of powergamers, but I don't tend to pull punches when I DM, so they are (for the most part) very good at making balanced characters. When one of the players tries being the DM, the player experience level is a lot higher than the DM's.

[Duke of URL]

In any situation where someone is an "expert" and they're watching a "beginner" try their hand, there's always going to be a balance of stepping in to help/mentor and standing back to allow them to learn by doing.

Your best bet is to talk to the "rookie" and ask that person what (s)he would prefer that you do in those situations. Both parties (plus the other players, for that matter) need to understand that it's a learning experience, and that mistakes will be made.

[Zeful]

If the DM is complaining about a monster's effectiveness, say nothing then, even if you mean it with the best of intentions, you are undermining the DM authority. Wait until the session's over, then ask the DM if you can talk about the game, bring up the fight with the monster he's complaining about and then suggest that there's a better way to fight with the monster.

For example if a ghost was killed quickly because of the Rogue with Wraithstrike, comment that the ghost's ethereal and can attack from the floor or walls, or even use them as a method of escape if he's losing. If the current DM objects to your advice, let the subject drop, you can only help as much as they want to be helped. But by pointing out that you can use the monster's abilities to it's advantage in one case, you might start the DM thinking about other Out-of-the-Box things he can do with monsters.

[rezplz]

What I would do is, either before or after the game starts, ask the other DM if he wants advice as the game goes along, or advice on things after the session is over, or if he'd rather just learn on his own. That way it can kind of seem like more of a mentoring thing, rather than a condescending thing. After all, you've been DMing more than whoever else is giving it a try, and chances are that they'll appreciate the help. Because I know that when I started DMing, I needed all the help I could get. And I still ask my players for rules clarification from time to time.

[Guinea Anubis]

The best idea for something like this IMHO is to talk to the DM before the game off to the side and see how they would like you to handle this.

[Sallera]

It depends a lot on the DM, I think. I learned the game through DMing, and my group was as new as I was, so mid-session rule corrections quickly became standard practice for us. You don't want to end up correcting rules issues every time they come up, so it's best to mention them as soon as you notice.

The enemy tactics, however... rather than making suggestions after fighting them, perhaps try offering help after the game. Just say you have some ideas about why certain encounters were ineffectual/TPKs, and if they want help, point out where they went wrong. There's nothing wrong with giving advice when it's asked for, and it seems that they're well aware that you're the member of the group with the most experience, so you're unlikely to come across as condescending if you make sure they're interested first.

[Kylarra]

As far as rules issues go, you'll probably want to at least mention it when it comes up. If the DM goes with their interpretation, then make a note of it and roll with it. Don't make a big issue of it.

As far as playing monster "optimally" and such, that's for before/after game session discussions, not in front of everyone.

[Dr Bwaa]

Ask the newer DM what he/she prefers. Some people will want to learn it on their own, or are possibly running it that way on purpose. Others may really just not have noticed/known, and may appreciate you telling them. So just ask the newer DM what his/her preference is.

[Tyndmyr]

When they make a mistake, smack them repeatedly in the face with a rolled up newspaper, while shouting "No! Bad DM! No!"

If they protest, remind them to "Respect Mah Athoritah!", and look for something heavier than a newspaper.

[bosssmiley]

J/k: The protocol is similar to that used when entering the presence of the Chinese Son of Heaven, or the Persian Shah-an-Shah.

Approach the DM with eyes averted and hands visible.
Bring costly and splendid offerings carefully calculated to please his exquisite taste and style.
When within three paces kow-tow, knocking one's head on the floor three times (once for Gygax, once for Arneson, once for the DM).
Address the DM indirectly, as you are not worthy to speak to him person-to-person.
Slather one's speech with honourifics ("Oh Dread Master of our Fates"... "Creator of Worlds"... "One to Whom All Eyes Turn"... "Lord Who Dwells Behind the Becheeto'ed Screen"... "Mighty Clatterer of Dice Which Determine the Course of the World" etc.) and flattering references to the DM's wit, sagacity, clemency, and the luxuriousness of his neckbeard.
Hear his iron words and tremblingly obey.
Withdraw with face averted, bowing at each step.

Srsly: Be a resource. Offer the DM rules citations and page refs if floundering occurs, then politely abide by his decision to use them or not. A sporting player does not argue the toss with the referee.

[snoopy13a]

I wouldn't do anything. If the DM isn't playing the monsters to their full potential, he will likely remedy it on his own by adding more monsters. Eventually, he or she will balance out the difficulty levels of it.

[Urbek]

First and foremost: Respect the DM, he is the one controlling the game.

From the viewpoint of a beginning DM, I always welcome suggestions to make the game run smoother, control the opposition to the PC's more optimally, clarification of rules, etc. The only caveat to this is that I would prefer it to be done during a break or after the game...in private or send me a note. Nothing ticks me off more than being corrected, even if I am blatantly wrong, in front of my peers. It isn't that I cannot take criticism, it is just the wrong way to approach the issue.

If the DM doesn't care to accept the suggestions, then he/she will have to learn the hard way. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

My 2cp

[Tyndmyr]

J/k: The protocol is similar to that used when entering the presence of the Chinese Son of Heaven, or the Persian Shah-an-Shah.

Approach the DM with eyes averted and hands visible.
Bring costly and splendid offerings carefully calculated to please his exquisite taste and style.
When within three paces kow-tow, knocking one's head on the floor three times (once for Gygax, once for Arneson, once for the DM).
Address the DM indirectly, as you are not worthy to speak to him person-to-person.
Slather one's speech with honourifics ("Oh Dread Master of our Fates"... "Creator of Worlds"... "One to Whom All Eyes Turn"... "Lord Who Dwells Behind the Becheeto'ed Screen"... "Mighty Clatterer of Dice Which Determine the Course of the World" etc.) and flattering references to the DM's wit, sagacity, clemency, and the luxuriousness of his neckbeard.
Hear his iron words and tremblingly obey.
Withdraw with face averted, bowing at each step.


And THEN smack him with the newspaper?

[DabblerWizard]

The fact that your DM is making statements about being frustrated with combat encounters, is encouraging. He might be more open to suggestions than a DM that doesn't talk about his frustration.

Depending on his self confidence, a new DM may very well be self conscious about his DM skills, especially if he's looking to adequately entertain his friends. It's good to be sensitive to their uneasiness, and maybe expect jumpiness or defensiveness.

Unsolicited advice might be taken badly, because it "verifies" and points out some of the new DM's inadequacies, even if you're not trying to be unkind.

As a friend, I wouldn't feel right just sitting there watching another friend suffer needlessly.

I would give advice to a new, frustrated DM. Pointing this kind of thing out in the middle of the gaming session might provoke even more anxiety because now they're in the spotlight in front of all their friends. I would talk to them in private, before or after a session.

I would say something like the following: "You've talked about being unhappy with your combat encounters. I hate seeing you annoyed like that. If you want some pointers, or advice, or if you want me to plan a battle with you sometime ... just let me know". --- How much help you want to offer is up to the person offering it, of course.

Some new DMs will want to work things out on their own, but you won't know for sure until you offer them your understanding, and your advice.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I wouldn't do anything. If the DM isn't playing the monsters to their full potential, he will likely remedy it on his own by adding more monsters. Eventually, he or she will balance out the difficulty levels of it.

The main problem I have is that the 'rookie' DMs tend to get too frustrated and quit before they can learn too much, so the clock's ticking (even had an occasion of a 'rage-quit', where halfway through an encounter, the DM called it quits because we were steamrolling the encounters).

Thanks for the info! I'll likely do it through e-mail to keep it private, and only comment about rules in-game if they're blatantly causing a ruckus or hassle. I eventually want to play as a PC for longer than 2-3 sessions, so I need to handle this as best as possible.

[valadil]

The only hard and fast rule I'd stick to is that rules discussions should not interrupt game time. It's not fair to the other players to take away their game time. Do it after game or over email between sessions.

Otherwise it depends on the DM. I'm happy to let players tell me the rules. I'm there as story teller, not referee. I usually ask my players about rules. If there's a dispute or ambiguity I'll have to make a call, but that happens less often than you'd expect.

That said I can understand why other GMs are put off by players questioning their rules. Sometimes you gotta suck it up and accept that a combat won't be run by the book. Or that a GM is intentionally changing things around. These are the GMs you'll have to ask outside of game. When you do you can ask how they feel about rules corrections from PCs.

And of course there are GMs that are too authoritarian. I had one guy who didn't allow rules questions because he didn't want to be disrespected. I asked about his arithmetic once and got kicked out. Let's just say I was not sorry to leave, and you shouldn't be either if a GM is totally unwilling to listen.

[dsmiles]

Rules of DM Etiquette:

Rule #1: The DM is always right.

Rule #2: Thou shalt not critique other DM's abilty or style whilst within the hearing of other players.

Rule #3: He who brings the best snacks gets the most leeway.

Rule #4: When in doubt refer to rule #1.

[Keshay]

The main problem I have is that the 'rookie' DMs tend to get too frustrated and quit before they can learn too much, so the clock's ticking (even had an occasion of a 'rage-quit', where halfway through an encounter, the DM called it quits because we were steamrolling the encounters).

Wow, I'd suggest waiting until after this guy's third birthday before letting him be a big boy and try to DM again. That's some seriously immature and poorly socialized behavior.

I'm guessing he yells at the TV and breaks controllers when he loses at video games too?

[Thurbane]

I'm kind of the rules lawyer in my group. If the DM (or another player) gets a rule wrong, I try to let them know in a civilized manner. Sometimes it causes a bit of ill will, but usually the person is thankful that I have pointed it out. I try to be even handed - i.e. I point something out regardless of whether it is in the players favor, or the DMs favor. Sometime the DM chooses to abide by his decision, even if it runs contrary to RAW, for the flow of the adventure, and that's OK too.

In short, you can point out rule errors, so long as you try to be polite about it. I'm sure we've all gamed with an obnoxious rules lawyer at some point who constantly interrupts the game to point out that someone has gotten something wrong in the most rude manner...the main thing is: don't be that guy! :smallsmile:

[Jan Mattys]

When they make a mistake, smack them repeatedly in the face with a rolled up newspaper, while shouting "No! Bad DM! No!"

If they protest, remind them to "Respect Mah Athoritah!", and look for something heavier than a newspaper.

:smallbiggrin:

[FFTGeist]

In my group of players we've all tried to DM, i seem to stick with it the longest since I'm the most adaptable. My advice to you....

It's just a game, if they are doing it correctly or if they aren't, as long as the DM treats everything the same it shouldn't matter.

For example, i used to think that if your speed was 30 you could only move 30 ft if you took a full round move action. If you took a move and a standard you could only move 15 ft.

It upset a lot of players, but since it effected both players and enemies it worked out in the end.

You have to trust in your DM. If you want to nitpick the rules you might just end up ruining the story.

[potatocubed]

Have the new GM run a completely different game - say, RuneQuest - that the rest of the group haven't played either. That removes the experience imbalance when it comes to the system, and the skills they learn by GMing one system can be transferred to another if you want to return to D&D at a later date.