tier???

[Tahlathali]

ok, I've read in several posts about tier 3 characters or tier 2 characters. Obviously the lower the tier, the more powerful the character. But what classifies these tiers? I've never heard of them till........ well today actually as I am browsing some of the posts while sitting at my computer at work..... new hobby of mine when bored/tired.

[jokey665]

Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0)

[Tavar]

This is what they're talking about (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

[Tahlathali]

crap, this site is restricted here at work, I'll check the link when I get home in 2 1/2 hours........... probably driving in the snow........ I hate snow.... anyway, thanks

[Zeta Kai]

I'll do you one better. Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0) is not only a list of the tiers, but a detailed explanation of why each class is in its respective tier. It's quite thorough.

[Tavar]

brilliantgameologists.comThe following is a repost of something I made over on the WotC forums. I'm not exactly sure which forum to put it on, as it's intended for a variety of purposes. It's here mostly because I'd like to get some feedback from knowledgeable minds, but it's also a useful tool, much like a handbook, and available for use.

My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group. If the group as a whole is very powerful and flexible, the DM can simply up the challenge level and complexity of the encounters. If it's weak and inflexible, the DM can lower the challenge level and complexity. Serious issues arise when the party is composed of some members which are extremely powerful and others which are extremely weak, leading to a situation where the DM has two choices: either make the game too easy for the strong members, or too hard for the weak members. Neither is desireable. Thus, this system is created for the following purposes:

1) To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PCs in their group

2) To provide players with knowledge of where their group stands, power wise, so that they can better build characters that fit with their group.

3) To help DMs who plan to use house rules to balance games by showing them where the classes stand before applying said house rules (how many times have we seen DMs pumping up Sorcerers or weakening Monks?).

4) To help DMs judge what should be allowed and what shouldn't in their games. It may sound cheesy when the Fighter player wants to be a Half Minotaur Water Orc, but if the rest of his party is Druid, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, and Artificer, then maybe you should allow that to balance things out. However, if the player is asking to be allowed to be a Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and the rest of the party is a Monk, a Fighter, and a Rogue, maybe you shouldn't let that fly.

5) To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes. Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier. Generally, I like Tier 3 as a balance point, but I know many people prefer Tier 4. If it's stronger than Tier 1, you definitely blew it.

Psionic classes are mostly absent simply because I don't have enough experience with them. Other absent classes are generally missing because I don't know them well enough to comment, though if I've heard a lot about them they're listed in itallics. Note that "useless" here means "the class isn't particularly useful for dealing with situation X" not "it's totally impossible with enough splat books to make a build that involves that class deal with situation X." "Capable of doing one thing" means that any given build does one thing, not that the class itself is incapable of being built in different ways. Also, "encounters" here refers to appropriate encounters... obviously, anyone can solve an encounter with purely mechanical abilities if they're level 20 and it's CR 1.

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately).

Now, obviously these rankings only apply when mechanical abilities are being used... in a more social oriented game where talking is the main way of solving things (without using diplomacy checks), any character can shine. However, when the mechanical abilities of the classes in question are being used, it's a bad idea to have parties with more than two tiers of difference.

It is interesting to note the disparity between the core classes... one of the reasons core has so many problems. If two players want to play a nature oriented shapeshifter and a general sword weilder, you're stuck with two very different tiered guys in the party (Fighter and Druid). Outside of core, it's possible to do it while staying on close Tiers... Wild Shape Variant Ranger and Warblade, for example.

Note that a few classes are right on the border line between tiers. Duskblade is very low in Tier 3, and Hexblade is low in Tier 4. Fighter is high in Tier 5, and CW Samurai is high in Tier 6 (obviously, since it's pretty much strictly better than the same tier Warrior).

[Zeta Kai]

Damn nice of you, Tavar. Now he can read it here. Problem solved.

[deuxhero]

There are also tiers for Prcs, judged by how they effect the tier of their of the user.

[Tahlathali]

tavar, thank you very much. now I can read it while at work *evil grin*

[sonofzeal]

There are also tiers for Prcs, judged by how they effect the tier of their of the user.

Yes, indeed there is! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)

[Tahlathali]

ok, so in this campaign I'm running, we have a sorc10//fighter6/arcane archer 4 with improved rapid shot, monk10//scout10 very mobile with trip feats, and druid10//rog3/bbn1/MoMF6. So basically going with the tiers we have a tier 1 fullcasting shapeshifter, a tier2 blasting archer, and a tier 4ish skirmisher..... doesn't look good....... well, it's my cousins I know we'll have fun anyway.

[Draz74]

ok, so in this campaign I'm running, we have a sorc10//fighter6/arcane archer 4 with improved rapid shot, monk10//scout10 very mobile with trip feats, and druid10//rog3/bbn1/MoMF6. So basically going with the tiers we have a tier 1 fullcasting shapeshifter, a tier2 blasting archer, and a tier 4ish skirmisher..... doesn't look good....... well, it's my cousins I know we'll have fun anyway.

Well, Gestalt is certainly one of Monk's places to shine. And Scout is decent in Gestalt as well. If the Scout//Monk has some trick that will let him get a full attack with Skirmish damage, he may well be Tier 3. (Or maybe not, without Swift Hunter.)

[Tahlathali]

is there a way to get full attack with skirmish???? What's swift hunter?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

is there a way to get full attack with skirmish???? What's swift hunter?Full attack with Skirmish requires some method of free movement. I recommend Travel Devotion, though Pounce works as well, as does Hustle. Swift Hunter is a feat that allows you to stack Ranger and Scout for Favored Enemy/Skirmish and Skirmish your Favored Enemies.

[Keld Denar]

Talk to the Monk guy and see if he'll change his build to the slightly better:

Scout4/Ranger6//Monk10 with Swift Hunter

Or similar. This nets him 9/10 BAB instead of 7/10 BAB, the ability to apply skirmish damage to up to 3 favored enemies that might be immune (Undead + Constructs + Oozes or Plants), and a couple of 1st level ranger spells to play around with, which, with Spell Compendium, includes some decent choices. Alternatively, Spell-less Ranger (CChampion) would net some extra bonus feats.

Same concept, better execution.

EDIT: Swift Hunter is a feat in Complete Scoundrel that allows you to stack your Scout and Ranger levels to determine Skirmish and Favored Enemies. It ALSO has the ability that allows you to apply your Skirmish to enemies normally not vulnerable to percision based damage, so long as they are on your favored enemy list.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Tiers are what the class is capable of when fully optimized. An unoptimized sorcerer may very well be tier 4. A much better performance assessment is to actually look at their specific builds and see what they can do.

Swift Hunter is a feat in Complete Scoundrel that allows Ranger and Scout levels to stack for favored enemies and skirmish. Gives full BAB and skirmish, when is nice.
Feats or class abilities that allow free-action or swift-action movement can allow for full-attack skirmishing. Elocater, Travel Devotion, etc.

[Tahlathali]

I definitely will do that, he hasn't officially joined the party yet since his last character died at the slay living trapped door (somehow the sorcerer made the save but the ranger/duelist didn't)

[sonofzeal]

I definitely will do that, he hasn't officially joined the party yet since his last character died at the slay living trapped door (somehow the sorcerer made the save but the ranger/duelist didn't)
Probably the universe punishing him for taking such a horrible PrC.


Ways to get Skirmish + Full Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

[Kurald Galain]

Tiers are what the class is capable of when fully optimized. An unoptimized sorcerer may very well be tier 4.
But an unoptimized druid is still tier 1.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

We should test that and find out. I volunteer to build a druid with only Toughness as his feats.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I really would put an unoptimized druid at a significantly inferior tier. Never underestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Take cross-class ranks in hide/MS, have an owl animal companion, take feats like EWP (nunchucks) and Stealthy... Sneaky defender of the wild, for people that don't understand multiclassing and think ninja are kewl.

[Kurald Galain]

Just to give a rough estimate of how low PHB classes would go if badly build,

Wizard: normally tier 1, unoptimized tier 2. Your power lies in your spells, and a bad choice of spells is remedied by spending a bit of money.
Cleric: normally tier 1, unoptimized tier 1.5. Your power lies in your spells, and a bad choice of spells is remedied by sleeping for one night.
Druid: normally tier 1, unoptimized still tier 1. Even with any mistakes you make, you still have shapechange and animal companion; it doesn't get much better than this.
Sorcerer: normally tier 2, unoptimized tier 4. Your power lies in your spells, but it's hard to recover from a bad choice.
Bard: normally tier 3, unoptimized tier 4.
Rogue: normally tier 4, unoptimized tier 4. It seems hard to screw up a rogue build, really.
Barbarian: normally tier 4, unoptimized tier 5.
Ranger: normally tier 4, unoptimized tier 4.
Paladin: normally tier 5, unoptimized tier 5.
Fighter: normally tier 5, unoptimized tier 6. Your power lies in your feats, and it's hard to recover from a bad choice.
Monk: normally tier 5, unoptimized tier 6. Your power is easily messed up by taking the wrong feats or distributing your stats wrongly, and neither is recoverable much.

[Boci]

I cannot find the wielder on the tier list. Where would it belong?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wielder? You mean, with acetyl torches and protective masks?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wielder? You mean, with acetyl torches and protective masks?That's "Welder". I think he's talking about the Soulknife. Though it could be the Kensai.

[Boci]

Wielder? You mean, with acetyl torches and protective masks?

The class from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, the one that can over channel?


That's "Welder". I think he's talking about the Soulknife. Though it could be the Kensai.

Nope. I can see the soulknife and kensai isn't a base class.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Isn't that the Wilder?

[Kylarra]

The class from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, the one that can over channel?

Wilder


It's probably tier 2 given that despite a very limited learnset, it's still a fullcaster.

[Boci]

Isn't that the Wilder?

Possibly. I don't have my EPH at hand so sorry for any misspellings.


Wilder


It's probably tier 2 given that despite a very limited learnset, it's still a fullcaster.

Okay thanks. It seems weaker than a psion though so it would probably be the low end of tier 2 right?

[The Glyphstone]

You mean the Wilder? I'd say either very low Tier 2 or high Tier 3 - it's technically a full caster, but far less versatile than its Psion counterpart, and its primary class feature actually gets worse as you gain levels.

[Kylarra]

Okay thanks. It seems weaker than a psion though so it would probably be the low end of tier 2 right?
Yeah, low 2, high3 somewhere in that region.

[Optimystik]

Possibly. I don't have my EPH at hand so sorry for any misspellings.

No need... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm)


Okay thanks. It seems weaker than a psion though so it would probably be the low end of tier 2 right?

Yes, or high 3.

[Draz74]

I really would put an unoptimized druid at a significantly inferior tier. Never underestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Take cross-class ranks in hide/MS, have an owl animal companion, take feats like EWP (nunchucks) and Stealthy... Sneaky defender of the wild, for people that don't understand multiclassing and think ninja are kewl.

Haha, good example. :smallbiggrin: Yeah, I really think if you have no optimization skills you can easily get a Druid all the way down to Tier 3.

[Pluto]

I really would put an unoptimized druid at a significantly inferior tier. Never underestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Take cross-class ranks in hide/MS, have an owl animal companion, take feats like EWP (nunchucks) and Stealthy... Sneaky defender of the wild, for people that don't understand multiclassing and think ninja are kewl.

That really bothers me.

I would say 90% of players don't give a damn about optimization.
And of those that do, gimping the Druid is probably a wiser decision than slapping on Greenbound/Natural Bond/whatever the cool kids are using nowadays.
Or maybe it just bugs me because I definitely used that very build once. On purpose.

[Ashiel]

That really bothers me.

I would say 90% of players don't give a damn about optimization.
And of those that do, gimping the Druid is probably a wiser decision than slapping on Greenbound/Natural Bond/whatever the cool kids are using nowadays.
Or maybe it just bugs me because I definitely used that very build once. On purpose.

I dunno about 90%. Lots of players care about optimization, but don't think of it terms of titles like "optimization". Some don't even know what optimization is, or how you can do it, but it doesn't mean they don't care.

You see, if you ever wanted to survive or feel more confidant that you can handle something, then you care about optimization. If you ever wondered if you could make a fighter that specializes in daggers, but can actually do something useful, then you care about optimization.

As a DM, I care about optimization because I tend to build encounters to be dangerous. I rarely use non-NPC classes, and I follow the standard ability scores for NPCs, but the bad-guys often fight smart and often dirty. They set traps, gang up, use aid-another, and reach weapons.

Adepts wielding longspears can end low-level parties by themselves, and they often have Spell Focus x 2 if human (DC 14 sleep spells at low levels are dangerous).

Warriors carry ranseurs, wear locked and spiked gauntlets, and like to flank and disarm, and covering each other with readied actions, aid anothers, and disarming opponents into submission.

Experts wielding longspears with tumbling specializations, assisting the warriors, throwing nets, using thunderstones, low level wands with a few charges (grease is a favorite) with UMD.

Orcs using slings in groups before charging into combat with their glaives or longspears, taking advantage of their naturally impressive strength. Often with the benefit of a first round bless spell from one of their adept shamans.

I care about optimization because if a player has taken it upon himself to be the world's greatest butter-knife warrior, well by gum I'm going to try and help that player figure out a way to heat that knife up, or it'll never get through this butter. :smallamused:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I care about optimization because if a player has taken it upon himself to be the world's greatest butter-knife warrior, well by gum I'm going to try and help that player figure out a way to heat that knife up, or it'll never get through this butter. :smallamused:

Does a butter knife deal 1d2 damage? Because if so...

[Zeta Kai]

Does a butter knife deal 1d2 damage? Because if so...

I see what you did there, & although it technically works, no DM (sane or otherwise) will let that work more than once. But that's for another thread...

[Zincorium]

I think of the tier system as generally a good thing, if used for the right things.

If you recommend certain classes/PrCs to people to help the party stay pretty close to a given tier, then the DM should have an easier time making challenges and characters won't be useless compared to their companions in adventures that don't compensate for a specific group's makeup (any published adventure, for instance, or old adventures the DM has been saving up).

Using the tier system as a discriminatory thing, not so much. 'You can't play anything above tier two' isn't very friendly, and unless justified as a low-power or extraordinarily dangerous game, it's completely arbitrary.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Yeah, I really think if you have no optimization skills you can easily get a Druid all the way down to Tier 3.

But then again, never overestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Druid can be taken down to a Tier 3. Maybe even a Tier 4. That's still better than the Samurai, the vanilla Fighter, the Truenamer...



Or maybe it just bugs me because I definitely used that very build once. On purpose.
You used nunchucks? Seriously? The stealth skills and the owl are reasonable, if suboptimal, but the nunchucks part was the actual "stupid part"...

[Sinfire Titan]

But an unoptimized druid is still tier 1.

Actually, lack of optimization is one thing that can change a class' tier. The system didn't include optimization as a factor, just what the base class and its class features are capable of. If it attempted to classify the classes after optimization is taken into account, there would be a much different list. An unoptimized Druid likely doesn't use his Animal Companion properly, doesn't use Wild Shape for combat forms, and prepares blasting spells as often as possible. Or didn't take Natural Spell. Or the former+Shapeshift ACF.


An Optimized Druid will make sure to use every tool at his disposal to the level of competence required by the campaign (possibly more than strictly necessary).

A supremely Optimized Druid is likely a Planar Shepherd.

[ericgrau]

I never pay much attention to the tiers. Even the comic this site comes from disagrees at points. In particular both it and me question the placement of the bard (and I find a couple other choices a bit wonky). It gets worse when you remember that D&D is a team game, and the well optimized "tier 1" batman wizard's spells are supposed to be best spent helping out the "tier 5" fighter or barbarian.

But it does give you a rough idea of the opinion of the vocal forum members, though I'm sure even that varies a bit. And when talking about build versatility, especially for duels (not parties), it helps people ballpark it for you. After all, once you char-op an auto-win, the only thing left to do is to make as many different ways and counters to auto-win as possible.

[sofawall]

I never pay much attention to the tiers. Even the comic this site comes from disagrees at points. In particular both it and me question the placement of the bard (and I find a couple other choices a bit wonky). It gets worse when you remember that D&D is a team game, and the well optimized "tier 1" batman wizard's spells are supposed to be best spent helping out the "tier 5" fighter or barbarian.

But it does give you a rough idea of the opinion of the vocal forum members, though I'm sure even that varies a bit. And when talking about build versatility, especially for duels (not parties), it helps people ballpark it for you. After all, once you char-op an auto-win, the only thing left to do is to make as many different ways and counters to auto-win as possible.

That being the problem, of course.

[ericgrau]

I'm only talking about the common Logicninja batman theory. In practice it usually is, but often a fireball is stronger than haste too. If anything "supposed to be" was implying the possibility of the opposite direction you're thinking, while as written it is the common view that I'd sorta agree with.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm only talking about the common Logicninja batman theory. In practice it usually is, but often a fireball is stronger than haste too. If anything "supposed to be" was implying the possibility of the opposite direction you're thinking, while as written it is the common view that I'd sorta agree with.

I'd love a hit of what you're smoking to make that kind of statement. You're saying one instance of 10d6 damage outclasses a +1 bonus to Attacks, AC, Saves, and a bonus attack every round? Especially considering that enemies are usually resistant to Fire (or outright immune) and that your allies are almost never going to resist a Haste casting?

Granted, Haste isn't the best 3rd level spell there is, but it beats Fireball every day. That 10d6 damage averages out to 35, and caps at 60 (barring metamagic). A tank can dish out 60 damage/attack by 6th level, and can easily get 20 damage/attack by 5th level. You're telling me giving him a 5% accuracy boost and an extra 20 damage/round is worse than 35 average damage (with a save for half and SR) once?

There's a reason Boost of Speed are the most popular type of boots for a melee character.

[ericgrau]

Multiple targets can quickly outclass haste in damage by a large margin. At higher levels, you metamagic it. Most enemies are not resistant, even those that are often have it greatly overwhelmed by the damage output, and switching energy types depending on opponent via another spell is incredibly simple. And I said often but usually not, which is quite a conservative claim. With some DMs or campaigns it is quite the understatement. But to say there are never circumstances where a fireball is better than a haste is patently ludicrous.

Oh, and by saying haste is so good (not disagreeing, heck I'm one of the biggest proponents of boots of speed), you're supporting my claim that usually the wizard is better off helping another class, who in most parties - including LogicNinja's examples - is on a much lower tier, so either way... :smallbiggrin:.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Multiple targets can quickly outclass haste in damage by a large margin. At higher levels, you metamagic it. Most enemies are not resistant, even those that are often have it greatly overwhelmed by the damage output, and switching energy types depending on opponent via another spell is incredibly simple. And I said often but usually not, which is quite a conservative claim. With some DMs or campaigns it is quite the understatement. But to say there are never circumstances where a fireball is better than a haste is patently ludicrous.

Oh, and by saying haste is so good (not disagreeing, heck I'm one of the biggest proponents of boots of speed), you're supporting my claim that usually the wizard is better off helping another class, who in most parties - including LogicNinja's examples - is on a much lower tier, so either way... :smallbiggrin:.

This may just be because I love me my summons, but haste stays nice and handy at higher levels, too. Sure, you may not want to open combat with a 3rd level spell at tenth level, but grab a lesser rod of quicken, and suddenly your tag-team of Beareded Devils (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#beardedDevilBarbazu) are enjoying the extra attacks like your fighter friend has been for five levels.

[Sinfire Titan]

Multiple targets can quickly outclass haste in damage by a large margin. At higher levels, you metamagic it. Most enemies are not resistant, even those that are often have it greatly overwhelmed by the damage output, and switching energy types depending on opponent via another spell is incredibly simple. And I said often but usually not, which is quite a conservative claim. With some DMs or campaigns it is quite the understatement. But to say there are never circumstances where a fireball is better than a haste is patently ludicrous.

Oh, and by saying haste is so good (not disagreeing, heck I'm one of the biggest proponents of boots of speed), you're supporting my claim that usually the wizard is better off helping another class, who in most parties - including LogicNinja's examples - is on a much lower tier, so either way... :smallbiggrin:.

Damage per target remains unchanged, just total damage dealt. Unless you have some kind of class feature that heals you based on the damage your spells deal, an average of 35 fire damage with Save for half doesn't stand up to buffing your party (you know, the underlying point of LogicNinja's guide?)