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View Full Version : Two wasted feats? (A Shadowcraft Mage Question)



Coy
2009-12-18, 04:15 PM
I've been looking very closly at the Shadowcraft Mage/Heighten spell trick.

Surely the use of earth spell, and consequently earth sense, is dare i say a waste? Atleast in a Wizard build.

My logic is this - assuming most people take the Gnome Illusionist racial replacment level at 1st, which essentially lowers the spell slot cost of the spells used in the shadowcraft mages Shadow Illusion (images) by one.

Is the point of using earth spell to reduce it by another slot (essentially allowing you to, with heighten spell, mimic any evocation/specific conjuration of level [Image spell level+heightened level +1]).

Is it even FAIR to assume it stacks in that way? I thought the only spirit behind the logic behind using Earth Spell is to unlock mimickry of 9th level spells.

Would it be fair to allow an illusionist to use an 8th level slot to produce a 9th level spell (of limited, but broad) schools?

Douglas
2009-12-18, 04:35 PM
My logic is this - assuming most people take the Gnome Illusionist racial replacment level at 1st, which essentially lowers the spell slot cost of the spells used in the shadowcraft mages Shadow Illusion (images) by one.
If I remember that one correctly, it's not just the cost that goes down. Someone using that to cast Silent Image is not casting a level 1 spell from a level 0 slot, he's casting a level 0 spell that happens to have the effect of a spell that is normally level 1. It's like a level of reverse Heighten Spell. Thus, it doesn't actually help with Shadowcraft Mage tricks at all except to add a 0 level spell to the list if you have a trick for which that matters. If you're using Residual Metamagic in combination with Heighten Spell, which is by far the most abusive exploit related to Shadowcraft Mages that I am aware of, then the gnome substitution level allows duplicating 9th level spells with a cantrip slot instead of having to use at least a level 1 slot. That is the only trick I am aware of where the substitution level matters for Shadowcraft Mage.

Keld Denar
2009-12-18, 04:57 PM
The only thing the Gnome Illusionist Racial Sub does is increase your CL of the spells you cast by 1. Since the Shadow Illusion ability is based on the level of the spell, rather than how far you've heightened it, it doesn't matter if you start with a 0th level spell or a 1st level spell.

So, if a ScM heightens a 1st level spell to 3rd, Earth Spell makes it 4th, and Shadow Illusion makes it 3rd again, allowing the ScM to copy Fireball. The CL is increased by 3 because you raise a 1st level spell to 4th (4-1 =3). If the same ScM heightens a 0th level spell to 3rd, Earth Spell makes it 4th, and the Shadow Illusion makes it 3rd again, allowing the ScM to copy Fireball, just like in the 1st example. This time, however, the CL is increased by 4, as you are raising a 0th level spell to 4 (4-0 =4).

The abuse comes in with MM reducers like Metamagic School Focus, which reduce the burden of Heighten by 1 more. That means the same ScM in the above example can Heighten a spell to 5th, allowing him to Emulate a 4th level spell instead of a 3rd level spell. He also gets a +4 (or +5 with the Racial Sub) bonus to his CL.

Thats why ScMs make such good blasters. They are usually hitting the level cap for blasty spells long before anyone else. An 8th level Evoker is tossing out 8d6 Cone of Colds, while a ScM is chucking 12d6 Cone of Colds. When an Evoker is tossing out 11d6 Chain Lightnings, the ScM is doing 17d6 Chain Lightnings, etc. Also, if you can get your quasi-reality up high enough, your spells are actually MORE real than reality, which hurts a lot.

Douglas
2009-12-18, 05:04 PM
An 8th level Evoker is tossing out 8d6 Cone of Colds
How? That's a 5th level spell.

Keld Denar
2009-12-18, 05:09 PM
You know what I meant....

Geesh, everyone's a freakin critic...

Huh, there aren't any SRD Xd6 per level 4th level nukes. Wierd.

Mongoose87
2009-12-18, 05:10 PM
You know what I meant....

Geesh, everyone's a freakin critic...

Huh, there aren't any SRD Xd6 per level 4th level nukes. Wierd.

Heightened Fireball, not that it's particularly worth it.

Keld Denar
2009-12-18, 05:17 PM
The problem with Heighten Fireball is that it still runs into the 10d6/level cap, which the ScM oversteps already. Normally, the best way to get damage is to apply Metamatic to spells you are right at the cap of, like Empowering a 10d6 Fireball is better than a 10d6 Cone of Cold in shear damage. ScM actually reverses this, because your CL is so inflated that you are hitting the caps at lower levels, nearly at the level you are accessing the spells at. Thus, its better for an ScM to cast higher level versions of spells, than trying to MM lower level spells. You'd never see a ScM cast an Empowered Fireball, he'd go straight for the Cone of Cold with nearly 1.5x the CL of the Evoker AND the higher DC.

Make sense?