Taekwondo master (3.5 help)

[Rosalinath]

Ni Hao ^^

Seeing all these monk questions around the board I had an idea. I've taken a liking to Juri from super street fighter 4 and thought that making a monk similar to her would be interesting both mechanically and fluff-wise.

But the problem with my idea is the fact that the monk class is bland at best. There is no diversity to their styles, they are weak in general, and they are not as supernatural as shown in fantasy movies as they should.

Then I found this. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29) What are peoples opinions on this class? How could I best work this or anything else into the overexaggerated style that is Juri's Taekwondo? Anything is welcome, anything at all.

[Flickerdart]

Frank and K's Monk (that you linked), along with Fax's d20r (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238) Monk, are the two best Monk fixes there are. You might also want to consider the (obligatory) Unarmed variant of the Swordsage from the Tome of Battle splatbook.

[Rosalinath]

thank you for the ideas :smallbiggrin: if I were to take the tome monk class what would be the best feats e.t.c for the type of fighting style I'm trying to build?

[suryasm]

I'd just like to say, I never found regular Monk bland in the least. The trick is to put your ability points in Dex and Wis, and just keep a Strength of 10. This gives you a great AC, and your to-hits becoming decent once you take Weapon Finesse at level 3.

And if you really want to go street fighter (shooting energy balls and flaming kicks and ki attacks), go for Fiery Fist (PHB2) for your level 2 bonus feat.

Then, at level 6 or 7, take a level of cleric, and simply go into the Sacred Fist (Complete Divine) prestige class. Progression in cleric spellcasting (and touch spells, of which clerics have plenty, can be delivered through unarmed attacks), a fighter's full BAB progression, a monk's unarmed damage progression, you get it all :smallbiggrin:!

As for other feats, there is a feat which makes Trip attempts Dex-based, so that Improved Trip bonus feat at Monk 6 is now awesome in spite of low strength. And other awesome feats: Improved Natural Attack, Versatile Unarmed Strike, Pain Touch.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you're going Unarmed Swordsage, here's my suggestions:

TKD is a very 'hard' style, lots of strikes, heavy emphasis on kicks. A very offensive style.

So, go with a lot of Tiger Claw (some of those jump maneuvers work perfectly with TKD flying kicks), some Stone Dragon for defense, Diamond Mind for counters, and you should be good.

Come to think of it, Warblade might be better, take Superior Unarmed Strike for unarmed damage progression, tack on a Monk's Belt to make up for the slightly lower progression, and you should be good.

Snap Kick is a must-have feat for this build.

[Rosalinath]

I personally don't really like ToB, but could you give me some examples of maneuvers that you are talking about? How much damage would I be dealing in proportion to the average fighter/striker role?

Also why warblade instead of Swordsage?

[Krazddndfreek]

They get full bab and d12 HD as well as picking up some bonus feats. On the downside, they can't pick up setting sun, which has all those fun throws which seem to be iconic of monks.

[Rosalinath]

hmm...true. But how exactly would a warblade be able to use his/her feet (unarmed strike) effectively as a weapon?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'd just like to say, I never found regular Monk bland in the least. The trick is to put your ability points in Dex and Wis, and just keep a Strength of 10. This gives you a great AC, and your to-hits becoming decent once you take Weapon Finesse at level 3.
And your damage is simply fabulous. Plus, you can take so much damage!


And if you really want to go street fighter (shooting energy balls and flaming kicks and ki attacks), go for Fiery Fist (PHB2) for your level 2 bonus feat.
And do a piddling amount of damage per attack! Hadoken!

[Boci]

hmm...true. But how exactly would a warblade be able to use his/her feet (unarmed strike) effectively as a weapon?

I don't think they can without improved and superior unarmed strike, but there are ways to use weapons unarmed I believe. For simplicities sake however, an unarmed swordsage focusing on tiger claw and stone dragon should work better. That will allow you to alternate between one powerful kick (the mountain hammer line to gain +2/6/12d6 to damage and over come DR) and a flurry of attavks (dancing and raging mongoose).


And your damage is simply fabulous. Plus, you can take so much damage!

I love how he says "the trick is" as if it hasn't occured to others.

[suryasm]

And your damage is simply fabulous. Plus, you can take so much damage!

And do a piddling amount of damage per attack! Hadoken!

Well let's see... Improved nat. attack, fiery fist, weapon finesse.... I do believe my monk is doing 1d8+1d6 damage with every attack at level 3, 4 rounds/day, 2 atks/round (assuming med. size and str 10). How is this bad?

If, by 'Hadoken', you refer to that Ki Ball thing which you can get at Level 6, I agree, it sucks big time. Better take a different bonus feat, or simply stop after 5 levels of monk. Take 2 levels of cleric instead before going into Sacred fist.

Once you get into Sacred Fist, toss Inflict spell damage and Sacred Flame damage on top of whatever you normally do.

I'll admit it doesn't hit as hard as a ToB build, but this is where personal opinions come into play - you think old-style Monk is weak, I think ToB is a bad case of power creep.

[Rosalinath]

True, I think so on both sides but for different reasons.

Just for future reference I'm planning on using this character in a solo campaign (hopefully anywho) so I'm kinda trying to min-max since I can't go gestalt. I'll probably just go with the wandering master fluff, maybe with a sepheroth type of insanity added on. Mostly I'm hoping to do jump attacks, large amount of attacks, and different attacks that alter the way enemies fight (like the clinging shadow strike and bloodletting strike)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well let's see... Improved nat. attack, fiery fist, weapon finesse.... I do believe my monk is doing 1d8+1d6 damage with every attack at level 3, 4 rounds/day, 2 atks/round (assuming med. size and str 10). How is this bad?
How isn't it bad? That's an average of 8 damage per attack at level 3. And that's not even all the time.

Meanwhile, a fighter does an average of 7 damage with his Greatsword, before anything else is factored into the equation.



If, by 'Hadoken', you refer to that Ki Ball thing which you can get at Level 6, I agree, it sucks big time. Better take a different bonus feat, or simply stop after 5 levels of monk. Take 2 levels of cleric instead before going into Sacred fist.
Doesn't Sacred Fist require 2nd level cleric spells, ie, 3 levels of cleric?


Once you get into Sacred Fist, toss Inflict spell damage and Sacred Flame damage on top of whatever you normally do.
Craaaaaap damage, will save for half.


I'll admit it doesn't hit as hard as a ToB build
Or anything, really.


but this is where personal opinions come into play - you think old-style Monk is weak, I think ToB is a bad case of power creep.
This is where fact comes into play: old-style monk can't do damage worth crap if played in your style.

[Pluto]

This is where fact comes into play: old-style monk can't do damage worth crap if played in your style.

If Sacred Fist is part of his style, I wouldn't be too concerned.
Even if spells and feats are being thrown away, cleric casting can cover up for just about anything.

[Keld Denar]

hmm...true. But how exactly would a warblade be able to use his/her feet (unarmed strike) effectively as a weapon?

To fully answer your question, you'd need to give a level range. ToB scales quite well. If you said level 6, for example

Assuming 14 Str, 16 Dex, 18 Wis, Medium size with
1 Adaptive Style
3 Shadow Blade
6 Superior Unarmed Strike

In Assassin's Stance
Base Damage is 1d10 + 2 + 3 + 4 or 1d10+9
BAB is +4

Burning Blade + Mountain Hammer would be
1d10+1d6+6+4d6+2d6 average 36, assuming you hit.

Mind you, thats at level 6, and not even using 3rd level maneuvers.

At level 9, you'd pick up Snap Kick (bleh, +6 BAB prereq) and 5th level maneuvers, allowing you do do nasty things with Searing Blade and a full attack, or springing the everfun Disrupting Blow (opponent takes no action, essentially dazed) or Bloodletting Strike to do Con damage, or Dancing Mongoose to gain 2 extra attacks or any number of nasty tricks.

What range are you looking at?

Also, as for the whole Warblade/Swordsage thing...nothing stops you from being both. ToB combos well with itself. If you went Swordsage4/Warblade1/Swordsage2/Warblade1/Swordsage2/Warblade1/etc, you'd get a new Warblade manevuer at each maneuver level, and your Swordsage IL wouldn't suffer that much.

[Rosalinath]

The problem is that I have know idea what level it will be. I'm waiting for a reply on said required info.

[suryasm]

How isn't it bad? That's an average of 8 damage per attack at level 3. And that's not even all the time.

Meanwhile, a fighter does an average of 7 damage with his Greatsword, before anything else is factored into the equation.


Are you saying an optimized ToB monk can keep up with an optimized greatsword-toting fighter-barbarian at level 3? Because if it can, you just made my point about power creep.


Doesn't Sacred Fist require 2nd level cleric spells, ie, 3 levels of cleric?

Craaaaaap damage, will save for half.

No it requires 1st level spells, so only 1 level of cleric. And you don't HAVE to cast inflict. Low-level cleric spells add a considerable degree of flexibility to an unarmed fighter.



This is where fact comes into play: old-style monk can't do damage worth crap if played in your style.
I've played monks several times, and I'll be the first to admit their lower damage potential. But it's nowhere near as bad as you seem to feel.

It's a moot point anyway. My Sacred Fist build was made with a team game in mind. A monk build for a solo game is a completely different proposition.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Are you saying an optimized ToB monk can keep up with an optimized greatsword-toting fighter-barbarian at level 3? Because if it can, you just made my point about power creep.
An optimized monk (no TOB) can keep up with a fighting type. Your build is just bad is what I'm trying to say.

How is ToB power creep, anyways? ToB classes are still inferior in power to the full casters in core.



I've played monks several times, and I'll be the first to admit their lower damage potential. But it's nowhere near as bad as you seem to feel.
I've played barbarians, sorcerers, and wizards several times, and I'll be the first to tell you that yes, they are.

[Rosalinath]

yes, you make a good point. Sacred fists are very fun, their just not very good alone. In my situation I need to make myself strong but also stylized, hence the ToB/tome monk ideas that I'm thinking about.

Lets just drop it ok guys? both ideals are noteworthy, you simply cant fight someone with a different playstyle. Regular monk is tasteful, ToB is over the top action. Lets agree to disagree ^^

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If that's the case, I'd definitely go with Unarmed SS.

[Rosalinath]

why do you think that? My brain hurts, too many classes :eek:

[DragoonWraith]

Unarmed Swordsage gets the requisite unarmed strike damage, and the Wis to AC. Those are pretty much the only features of the Monk class that are actually useful (well, those and Evasion), so already you're doing pretty well.

Swordsages get access to Shadow Hand (teleportation, various ability damaging maneuvers, various non-AC-based defensive abilities), Setting Sun (lots of throws and counters, very, very fitting for a Monk), and Tiger Claw (lots of dual wielding attacks, good for using both fists). Desert Wind is flashy, though ultimately weak due to the common-ness of fire resistance. Stone Dragon bores me personally, but it would certainly fit a Monk, what with all the incredible feats of endurance and breaking through stuff with your bare hands...

Seriously, it just screams Monk. Snap Kick (also a ToB feat) is pretty much mandatory, since it's awesome and tae kwon do involves a lot of kicking.

[Keld Denar]

You can always multiclass monk and Unarmed Swordsage. You wouldn't get Wis to AC twice (explicitly disallowed) but monk is pretty front loaded. For 2 levels, you get what, 4 feats?

Monk2/SwordsageX wouldn't be that much different than Swordsage X+2. You get better saves, more feats, and early Evasion in exchange for 1 IL.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Do you get improved evasion in the multiclass monk/ss when the ss class' evasion kicks in?

[DragoonWraith]

This is true, though you'd want to still do Unarmed SS so you continue to progress the unarmed strike damage.

[suryasm]

For what it's worth, I like Keld's idea a lot, if you gotta go unarmed SS to begin with.

[Darkfire]

Do you get improved evasion in the multiclass monk/ss when the ss class' evasion kicks in?
It'd have to be a houserule: having checked ToB & PHB, Evasion from more than one source doesn't appear to grant you Improved Evasion (unlike Uncanny Dodge).

[taltamir]

why no make a custom class entirely?
talk with the DM, start with sword sage. Replace unwanted features with wanted features. Call the new class "kung fu master"

[Optimystik]

If you're going with Monk/SS, be a Buomman (Planar Handbook.) +2 Wis, -2 AC, 0 LA, Favored Class Monk, and +2 to Listen checks. That should take care of multiclass penalties. Just try not to have your character say anything.

[Rosalinath]

I think I have made a decision, though a hard one. I'll be going Tome Monk/Unarmed Swordsage. This is because I can add my wisdom to AC Twice (once via SS, one replacing Dex) and also another unnamed AC boost. I would get a slam attack +as many natural attacks I can bust out (foot 1 & 2, Knee 1 & 2, e.t.c) and maybe take the multiattack feat. I'm really sad about not having Iron Heart, but sadly if I add Intelligence to my list of necessary abilities than I'm basically as spread out as a base monk. That would be str, con, int, wisdom, and maybe dex if I cant find a feat that lets me replace dex with wisdom. At least with swordsage I can be adaptive and scare the crap out of enemies with flashy moves. But if I can Somehow get the dm to let me make a Unarmed Warblade...I'm going to town with it!

Any ideas for my problems? heres the list:

I. Need primary stat (wisdom currently) to attack

II. Trying to unleach the flurry of blows in a none-core monk way

III. Trying to fill up most roles by myself. i.e. wandering kung fu master that takes out gangs of enemies.

[deuxhero]

It'd have to be a houserule: having checked ToB & PHB, Evasion from more than one source doesn't appear to grant you Improved Evasion (unlike Uncanny Dodge).

It can grant you spell reflection or a climb speed though.

[Worira]

If you're going with Monk/SS, be a Buomman (Planar Handbook.) +2 Wis, -2 AC, 0 LA, Favored Class Monk, and +2 to Listen checks. That should take care of multiclass penalties. Just try not to have your character say anything.

If it's just the multiclass penalty you're worried about, you could also just be human.

[Ecalsneerg]

If it's just the multiclass penalty you're worried about, you could also just be human.
Or just don't play with such a moronic rule.

[Keld Denar]

You can get wisdom to attack with the Intuitive Attack feat in Book of Exalted Deeds. Not sure if you have to be an Exalted character for that though...

Flurrying would be possible any time you are adacent to a foe. If you take a look in Tiger Claw, there are some good manevuers starting at level 1 that will help you. Sudden Leap allows you to make a jump check to move that distance as a swift action. Its not hard to hop 10-15 feet and make a full attack. Later, you'll get Pouncing Charge (level 5) and Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind, level 7). Alternatively, Complete Champion has the feat Travel Devotion. When used, you can move your speed at a swift action every turn for the next minute. Unfortunately, its only usable 1/day unless you take it multiple times or gain a source of Turn Undead attempts that you can spend to get multiple uses per day. That would be a challenge though.

Don't discount the power of Strikes though. Strikes generally do bonus damage to make up for the fact that you don't get a full attack. Even without Flurry, you'll still hit hard. With the Snap Kick feat, you'll be making 2 attacks every time you use a strike, so its kinda like a mini-flurry.

[Surgo]

If you need help for Tome monk feats, we need to know if Tome feats are on the table or not.

And unfortunately I haven't played Street Fighter 4 -- can you compare Juri to a Street Fighter 2 or Street Fighter Alpha character?

[Rosalinath]

Horray! Thank you Keld

I'll stay with my tome monk/Unarmed SS idea then while focusing on tiger claw

does anyone have a link to that X stat to Y ability guide from WotC?

Edit: basically shes like Cammy/Sakura in my oppinion, just alot faster and attacks with her feet. She has alot of air combos and an ok defense, but focuses on attacking rapidly

[Optimystik]

If it's just the multiclass penalty you're worried about, you could also just be human.

True, but they don't get a WIS bonus and it seems WIS matters to him.

Though the skills and feat could easily make up for that.

[Rosalinath]

ok, I am in need of advice for my characters feats.

I'm notsure of the level or if its gestalt so I will either play as a tome monk or a tome monk/Swordsage.

What are the best feats in these two situations? The strongest build-wise I mean. I was thinking of superior unarmed strike + Improved natural attack (slam) + Multiattack for the tome monk. For Swordsage I'm not sure...probably Intuitive Attack if I can convince the dm to make it not exalted.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Horray! Thank you Keld

I'll stay with my tome monk/Unarmed SS idea then while focusing on tiger claw

does anyone have a link to that X stat to Y ability guide from WotC?

Edit: basically shes like Cammy/Sakura in my oppinion, just alot faster and attacks with her feet. She has alot of air combos and an ok defense, but focuses on attacking rapidly

So basically Chun Li...

Yea, Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon are both good for that.

Here's why I suggest Warblade instead of Swordsage:

Higher BAB, so you hit more often. Higher HD, so you survive longer. Better Maneuver Refresh system, so you can bust your special moves more frequently. And it has access to both of the styles you want.

However,

If you are wanting to go Swordsage, here's some suggestions:

The feat Shadow Blade lets you replace your Str with Dex for damage output, as long as you are in a Shadow Hand stance and using a Shadow Hand weapon (which includes Unarmed). That means Str is now a Dump Stat. Con is an okay stat, but can be a Dump Stat if you use Setting Sun for counters. Int can be a Dump Stat, since you aren't trying to be a Skillmonkey. Charisma is a dump stat, period.

So really, the only two vital stats are Dex (attack and damage) and Wis (AC), with Con trailing in 3rd for more hit points. The rest are dumpable.

So for Feats for a Swordsage: Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, and Snap Kick are all vital.

[Surgo]

Again, it depends on whether or not you can draw from Tome feats.

[Rosalinath]

probably not, those feats kinda replace every phb feat and then some

[Emmerask]

Or just don't play with such a moronic rule.

But it is one of the great plusses humans get (aside from the bonusfeat) taking this rule away humans should get some other bonus mmaybe +1 to one stat of their choice or somesuch.

[Flickerdart]

But it is one of the great plusses humans get (aside from the bonusfeat) taking this rule away humans should get some other bonus mmaybe +1 to one stat of their choice or somesuch.
The human feat and skill point already makes them the default choice for most builds, and many goodies (Able Learner, anyone?) are Human-only. Nobody plays with multiclass penalties, really, and this is still the case. If you want to hand out bonuses, give them to the Half-Orcs and Half-Elves.