What to do with a city

[absolmorph]

In the campaign I play in, my level 4 paladin has become the duke of a city. I have (by word of my DM after I got the city) access to pretty much any weapon or armor up to +2 enhancement, and some magical items.
Currently, the city is being threatened by giants from the north. I plan on attempting to negotiate some sort of peace with them (hopefully gaining the use of giant soldier). If that doesn't work, I'm going to use a bunch of infantry (phalanx and archers) and cavalry to take them out (but only those that attack).
I have a few questions that I wanted to get people's opinions on:
Should I try and conquer threats?
How many soldiers am I likely to be starting with (meaning anyone that is part of the guard or easily usable)?
What would your character(s) do if they were the head of a large city?

[Psychosis]

For my good characters, maybe take steps to reduce what I can only assume is rampant crime - especially if he happened to be a heroic paladin such as yourself! Find out what funds are going to stupid things, use them to pay for a better watch or to otherwise improve life. Perhaps fund some sort of "Adventurer's Guild"-esque organization in case the Giant situation gets too out of hand.

Of course, if I was evil I would crack down in criminals with SOOPER DOOPER LAWS! Castration and slavery for hardcore criminals! Death for murderers! Thieves get the **** kicked out of them by burly men in public locations!

[absolmorph]

Ah, you have a good point about crime. I thought of that while I was in the pondering stage, but forgot about it when I was actually writing things down. Given that the old duke was evil (I suspect LE, I'll check; his sage was), I suspect either the punishments or the crimes are a problem.

[RandomNPC]

personally I'd call the character a success, roll up a new one, and go from there.

However, if this works anything like the leadership feat, you're going to need to lead from the front if you want any of your guys to survive. Diplomacise, don't just demand they help and you don't try running them off.

Show off that the guys with you are an honor guard, leave them a few paces behind when you walk up. Offer some kind of deal, see what they want, and if you can get it to them easier than they can get it themselves, well, thats what diplomacy is all about.

Basicly, bargin/intimidate/attack. Never attack/intimidate/bargin.

[Psychosis]

Ah, you have a good point about crime. I thought of that while I was in the pondering stage, but forgot about it when I was actually writing things down. Given that the old duke was evil (I suspect LE, I'll check; his sage was), I suspect either the punishments or the crimes are a problem.
An evil in a position of leadership? Odds are good he has funds going somewhere shady then. Maybe not if he's Lawful, but it's worth looking into.

[jmbrown]

I'm assuming it's a small city although I don't agree with the "pick a +2 magic item and you get it" thing as you're tapping pretty deep into your coffers when that +2 magic sword could have hired 100 heavy knights with barded horses for six months. If you're a paladin and your DM is actually tracking your funds, I wouldn't buy any magic items for yourself as that's pretty selfish. Even in peace time, 9,000gp or whatever could build several schools, a granary, and wall fortifications.


Currently, the city is being threatened by giants from the north. I plan on attempting to negotiate some sort of peace with them (hopefully gaining the use of giant soldier). If that doesn't work, I'm going to use a bunch of infantry (phalanx and archers) and cavalry to take them out (but only those that attack).
Taking your alignment into account, your decision with the giants should be determined by what you define as "threatening." If evil giants known to deal destruction in the countryside are mustering forces, I'd send a messenger out to set up a pact of nonviolence (a caravan of food and arms every month in exchange for 20 of their best warriors in a time of need?). If they're actually attacking without provocation then it's time to muster the troops and stand on their doorstep. Offer them another chance to leave/stop attacking. If they accept, keep an armed regiment watching them for a few months to be certain. If they decline, drive them off.

As for fighting them, hire some dwarves for an extra edge. Promise them free iron and a year without taxes if they build a forge in your city. Keep the cavalry to the side and have heavily armored warriors hold the giants at bay while siege weapons soften them from afar. If the giants attack they'll likely have stone throwers acting as artillery so a fast moving troop like light cavalry can run around their charging force and pick off lone artillerymen.


Should I try and conquer threats?
A paladin is judge, jury, and executioner in that order. Judge your enemies first; evil has to act so a group of hill giants minding their own business should not be target of wanton slaughter. If they are mustering troops or raiding the countryside, you come to a verdict; approach them with the evidence in hand and tell them how you'll deal with the situation. If that turns into hostility, you're an executioner and your fury is swift against those that threaten you.


How many soldiers am I likely to be starting with (meaning anyone that is part of the guard or easily usable)?

DMG says one level 1 warrior per 100 person. This is your standing army capable of being mobilized at any time. One level 1 commoner can be conscripted per 20 people but these guys are meat shields at best. The rest of your troops will come from allied lords or foreign mercenaries.


What would your character(s) do if they were the head of a large city?

Tax the hell out of them and put a puppet ruler in my place so I can do what PCs do best: steal from ancient tombs and slay monsters. :smallcool:

Edit: forget about the pact of nonviolence (paladins don't tolerate evil). Just give them a straight up warning that you will be prepared to drive them out if they start causing trouble.

[absolmorph]

personally I'd call the character a success, roll up a new one, and go from there.

However, if this works anything like the leadership feat, you're going to need to lead from the front if you want any of your guys to survive. Diplomacise, don't just demand they help and you don't try running them off.

Show off that the guys with you are an honor guard, leave them a few paces behind when you walk up. Offer some kind of deal, see what they want, and if you can get it to them easier than they can get it themselves, well, thats what diplomacy is all about.

Basicly, bargin/intimidate/attack. Never attack/intimidate/bargin.
Bargain/intimidate/attack was my plan.
As was leading from the front. In armor and weapons that shine. No, seriously. Among the notes is enchanting my equipment with Light (activated when I say phos) and Daylight (activated when I say elios).
And I was going to have the party act as my guard.
As for rolling a new character... well, this one is only a couple months old.

I'll ask my DM where all the taxes are going. And what the taxes are, for that matter.

[absolmorph]

I'm assuming it's a small city although I don't agree with the "pick a +2 magic item and you get it" thing as you're tapping pretty deep into your coffers when that +2 magic sword could have hired 100 heavy knights with barded horses for six months. If you're a paladin and your DM is actually tracking your funds, I wouldn't buy any magic items for yourself as that's pretty selfish. Even in peace time, 9,000gp or whatever could build several schools, a granary, and wall fortifications.
I'm just going with what my DM told me.
I'll see what the defenses, food supply, education, etc., are like when I get the chance.



Taking your alignment into account, your decision with the giants should be determined by what you define as "threatening." If evil giants known to deal destruction in the countryside are mustering forces, I'd send a messenger out to set up a pact of nonviolence (a caravan of food and arms every month in exchange for 20 of their best warriors in a time of need?). If they're actually attacking without provocation then it's time to muster the troops and stand on their doorstep. Offer them another chance to leave/stop attacking. If they accept, keep an armed regiment watching them for a few months to be certain. If they decline, drive them off.

As for fighting them, hire some dwarves for an extra edge. Promise them free iron and a year without taxes if they build a forge in your city. Keep the cavalry to the side and have heavily armored warriors hold the giants at bay while siege weapons soften them from afar. If the giants attack they'll likely have stone throwers acting as artillery so a fast moving troop like light cavalry can run around their charging force and pick off lone artillerymen.
Hence the cavalry I'm bringing. Equipped with lances, for extra oomph.



A paladin is judge, jury, and executioner in that order. Judge your enemies first; evil has to act so a group of hill giants minding their own business should not be target of wanton slaughter. If they are mustering troops or raiding the countryside, you come to a verdict; approach them with the evidence in hand and tell them how you'll deal with the situation. If that turns into hostility, you're an executioner and your fury is swift against those that threaten you.

The giants have been eating travelers passing through. I'm only giving them the chance to change because I want to play a paladin that tries to redeem evil.



DMG says one level 1 warrior per 100 person. This is your standing army capable of being mobilized at any time. One level 1 commoner can be conscripted per 20 people but these guys are meat shields at best. The rest of your troops will come from allied lords or foreign mercenaries.

That should be more than enough.



Tax the hell out of them and put a puppet ruler in my place so I can do what PCs do best: steal from ancient tombs and slay monsters. :smallcool:

Edit: forget about the pact of nonviolence (paladins don't tolerate evil). Just give them a straight up warning that you will be prepared to drive them out if they start causing trouble.
The terms I set out are these:
Don't attack travelers heading to or from Evermonde (the city).
Do not attack merchants.
Send food to them and help them farm in exchange for them helping my people farm.
Giant warriors for my military.
Human warriors to help them (as long as they keep to the agreement).

Another question: How should I deal with crime and punishment?

[jmbrown]

Don't attack travelers heading to or from Evermonde (the city).
Do not attack merchants.

So, they have free reign to attack anyone not on the road? The blood of someone else due to poor insight wouldn't sit well with a paladin. A better clause would be "Cease all raids on the roads and outlying lands."


Send food to them and help them farm in exchange for them helping my people farm.

A giant probably wouldn't agree to such a mundane task and the commoners would likely crap their pants. I'd offer food for land and protection. Grant them full rights to hunt, build settlements, and mine the area of resources in exchange for a reasonable tax and to defend the roads in a time of need.


Another question: How should I deal with crime and punishment?

Swiftly and with an iron fist. I know you're going for a redeeming paladin, but money spent on criminals is money that could be feeding mouths. Cursing, spitting, littering, cheating, IE minor crimes should be a hefty fine (5-10gp) and a day in the pillory. Thieves, counterfeiters, and robbers IE moderate crimes should be sent to work the fields or pay a great fine (50-100gp) plus time in the dungeon. Murderers, rapists, and assassins are the scum of the earth and deserve death. If you have a cleric that can freely cast zone of truth you can subject them to it and ask if they're willing to repent (if yes, send them to work the fields for life). If they're not repentant they will only bring destruction and need to be removed.

I know BoED says a good person should be merciful and fair but good people should be put ahead of evil people. Trying to rehabilitate every criminal is resources better spent on making life better for everyone else.

This is also why paladins make poor rulers. Being a "fair" ruler requires making compromises, even with the enemy. Paladins don't compromise especially when it could threaten the greater good.

[absolmorph]

So, they have free reign to attack anyone not on the road? The blood of someone else due to poor insight wouldn't sit well with a paladin. A better clause would be "Cease all raids on the roads and outlying lands."

Actually, the clause covers anyone that's traveling to or from Evermonde, in any direction.
I suppose "Cease all attacks on travelers" would be better.



A giant probably wouldn't agree to such a mundane task and the commoners would likely crap their pants. I'd offer food for land and protection. Grant them full rights to hunt, build settlements, and mine the area of resources in exchange for a reasonable tax and to defend the roads in a time of need.

The offer is being made with a small army backing me up, so I think I'll have some amount of persuasion. Again, however, your suggestion seems to be more logical than mine.



Swiftly and with an iron fist. I know you're going for a redeeming paladin, but money spent on criminals is money that could be feeding mouths. Cursing, spitting, littering, cheating, IE minor crimes should be a hefty fine (5-10gp) and a day in the pillory. Thieves, counterfeiters, and robbers IE moderate crimes should be sent to work the fields or pay a great fine (50-100gp) plus time in the dungeon. Murderers, rapists, and assassins are the scum of the earth and deserve death. If you have a cleric that can freely cast zone of truth you can subject them to it and ask if they're willing to repent (if yes, send them to work the fields for life). If they're not repentant they will only bring destruction and need to be removed.
I think I'll use this, but a smaller penalty. Not by much, though.



I know BoED says a good person should be merciful and fair but good people should be put ahead of evil people. Trying to rehabilitate every criminal is resources better spent on making life better for everyone else.

This is also why paladins make poor rulers. Being a "fair" ruler requires making compromises, even with the enemy. Paladins don't compromise especially when it could threaten the greater good.
Whether paladins compromise with evil is separate from if they compromise.
In my opinion, never allowing compromise will only end in evil. Like this. (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20050917.html)

[jmbrown]

Whether paladins compromise with evil is separate from if they compromise.
In my opinion, never allowing compromise will only end in evil. Like this. (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20050917.html)

Yes, by that I meant you shouldn't make unnecessary compromises with evil. Remember, alignment is about action not nature or thoughts. A hill giant is likely evil but unless he's chewing on your villagers he's doing nothing wrong. Still, going the route of Batman or Superman is insane as the ruler of a city when you think about the potential damage you could have eliminated had you eradicated the threat in the first place.

[Psychosis]

Swiftly and with an iron fist. I know you're going for a redeeming paladin, but money spent on criminals is money that could be feeding mouths. Cursing, spitting, littering, cheating, IE minor crimes should be a hefty fine (5-10gp) and a day in the pillory. Thieves, counterfeiters, and robbers IE moderate crimes should be sent to work the fields or pay a great fine (50-100gp) plus time in the dungeon. Murderers, rapists, and assassins are the scum of the earth and deserve death. If you have a cleric that can freely cast zone of truth you can subject them to it and ask if they're willing to repent (if yes, send them to work the fields for life). If they're not repentant they will only bring destruction and need to be removed.
This gives me an idea.

Should things start looking grim, you may want to consider short-term military service as a means to get off some serious charges. This is at your digression for obvious reasons, and maybe done on a case-by-case basis to avoid conscripting people who will just desert. That Zone of Truth thing could help here.

[absolmorph]

I worked out four tiers of punishments:
Minor: 1-5 gp, day in the pillory
Middle: 25-100 gp, 1-24 months working on a farm
Severe: 3-10 years working on a farm
Murder or rape: Death
With the caveat that a murder in self defense is only a 5-10 sp fine, to encourage subduing the attacker, but allow citizens to defend themselves.
Also, if sentenced to work on a farm for 6 months or longer, half that time can instead be spent in the military if you won't desert.
Minor crimes: petty theft (less than 5 gp), littering, graffiti.
Middle: most theft (5-200 gp), smuggling, blackmail, using violent threats, evading taxes.
Severe: assault, major theft (more than 200 gp), organized crime, attempted murder, unintended homicide (also following the rule on self defense).
Any thief will also be branded: petty theft is a small mark on the back of their hand. The middle theft gets the mark on their hand and a larger on their back. Major theft gets the mark on their hand, a mark on their arms and a mark on their face.
These aren't exact categories, but are basically a rough guide of where crimes fall.

Attempting to punish cursing or spitting seems rather... ridiculous to me. Yes, it's almost always not good, but few people are devoted to good. Those are bad manners, which aren't something that should be punished by law; that's something for people to punish socially.

And, for taxes:
Farmers are taxed for 10-15% of their harvest. This is for use during a famine, feeding soldiers and feeding those who can't feed themselves.
Merchants and workers are taxed 5-10% of their monetary income.

[jmbrown]

Attempting to punish cursing or spitting seems rather... ridiculous to me. Yes, it's almost always not good, but few people are devoted to good. Those are bad manners, which aren't something that should be punished by law; that's something for people to punish socially.

Try living in Singapore. (http://www.theworkblog.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/singapore_fine_city_tshirt.jpg)

I will say that, as a result of its strict rules, Singapore is one of the cleanest and most pleasant cities I've ever visited. If you want to maintain high standards you have to be willing to make harsh rules. Lawful good characters aren't above making restrictions if it means maintaining the greatest good.

Edit: People really were fined for cursing in the Middle Ages (at least around women if I recall my history class correctly).

[Psychosis]

While I jump on jm's wagon for the moment, I'd point out that there's no need to make the fine for such petty crimes too severe if you're not ok with it. Being fined a couple of silver, or even copper for every time you spit would be incentive to refrain from doing so without breaking the bank on every peasant who does. You don't have to put one between the eyes, but a warning shot might not hurt.

[absolmorph]

I suppose that's true.
Hm... I'll stick something in (why does this sound dirty in my head?).

[Ormur]

Fining people for cursing and spitting still sounds like Lawful Silly to me, whether it's done in the real world or not.

[bosssmiley]

Of course, if I was evil I would crack down in criminals with SOOPER DOOPER LAWS! Castration and slavery for hardcore criminals! Death for murderers! Thieves get the **** kicked out of them by burly men in public locations!

"Justice knows every man's number. Drunkards and brawlers will be flogged. Thieves will be strangled. Deserters will be crucified."
-- Lucius Vorenus, HBO's Rome

@OP: Grab a copy of Paizo's Rise of the Runelords IV. The entire first third of the adventure is about trying to defend a town from the Great Trampling Crusade being preached by some wacky stone giant shaman. It really does have a lot of handy pointers.

That said, a good offence is the best form of defence. Fight on your terms now, so you don't have to fight on theirs later.

[awa]

look at what peasants make in a week your going to have a lot of starving children if you fine 5 gold for spitting.

Also have you considered that your army have have an extremely hard time beating tribe of giants (assuming were talking about true giants lets take hill giants the weakest type as an example) they have reach, cleave over a hundred hit points, and a very long ranged rock throw attack.

If you try and send levels 1 warriors at tribe (21-30 plus 35% noncombatants plus 12-30 dire wolves, 2-4 ogres, and 12-22 orcs your likely looking to take very heavy casualties. If you are the highest level charecter in your army expect massive casualties.

A hill giant gets a 2d8 +10 hit attack with out even using power attack and has a +16 to hit so he can afford to use it expect him to one shot any thing lower then level 3 with each swing.

And that's assuming hill giants if their frost giants your in even more trouble they have great cleave?

Does your dm use any kind of moral system? Can you expect your level 1 warriors to be fight on while suffering heavy casualties? A phalanx will just make it easier for them to cleave and likely your archers will suffer heavy casualties because giant have so many hit dice they are excellent shots and their rocks have equal to or greater range then the bows your force will be using so with those factors combined they can open fire from longer range.

Cavalry is very expensive and unless the pepole riding the horse have class levels the giant will just take them out with rocks from range before they get close enough to charge.

Of course this is all assuming basic giants if one has class levels your in even more trouble.

Forcing the giants to work for you might not be an option you might have to pay the giants not to attack the travelers. Attacking them for eating travelers might just make them angry and increase their violence against you and your pepole.

[deuxhero]

^ And what if your knights could acctually fight a housecat and were thus level 3 at mnimum?

As for crime, I'd for for theft some multiple of the stolen goods value (more if they can't be recovered) is a good start.

[awa]

if hes got level 3 knights hes got a small chance but i still wouldn't expect them to take many hits. Really heavy armor will limit their ability to power attack and could make a huge difference but each hill giant is worth several level 3 knights.

[Emmerask]

In the campaign I play in, my level 4 paladin has become the duke of a city. I have (by word of my DM after I got the city) access to pretty much any weapon or armor up to +2 enhancement, and some magical items.
Currently, the city is being threatened by giants from the north. I plan on attempting to negotiate some sort of peace with them (hopefully gaining the use of giant soldier). If that doesn't work, I'm going to use a bunch of infantry (phalanx and archers) and cavalry to take them out (but only those that attack).
I have a few questions that I wanted to get people's opinions on:
Should I try and conquer threats?
How many soldiers am I likely to be starting with (meaning anyone that is part of the guard or easily usable)?
What would your character(s) do if they were the head of a large city?

Well my current gaming group has a city for quite some time now of course the wizard is building his tower there and they build new roads to increase trade and are currently recruiting an army because the king wills it ^^ oh they are also prospecting for mithril veins near their city and building a library (candlekeep style bring a book and you may read the others).

[Asheram]

I worked out four tiers of punishments:
Minor: 1-5 gp, day in the pillory
Middle: 25-100 gp, 1-24 months working on a farm
Severe: 3-10 years working on a farm


About minor theft, remember that for a commoner, 5gp can be quite a lot. And theft is usually commited by poor people from the beginning.

I'd say to work out a deal with the local guilds and start goverment sponsored schools and workhouses where you send people without any means of taking care for themselves, say orphans and poor people that've commited thievery.

Let the children get apprenticeships for the guilds, and let the thieves get jobs that take little training, say helping out at farms as you said before, but also working the docks or helping out at construction sites.
The money they make (not standard wage) will be split 60% to the workhouses and 40 to the thieves themselves, giving them an incentive for rehabilitating themselves properly.

For more severe crimes, I agree with you about the forced labor without pay.

[jmbrown]

look at what peasants make in a week your going to have a lot of starving children if you fine 5 gold for spitting.

Also have you considered that your army have have an extremely hard time beating tribe of giants (assuming were talking about true giants lets take hill giants the weakest type as an example) they have reach, cleave over a hundred hit points, and a very long ranged rock throw attack.

If you try and send levels 1 warriors at tribe (21-30 plus 35% noncombatants plus 12-30 dire wolves, 2-4 ogres, and 12-22 orcs your likely looking to take very heavy casualties. If you are the highest level charecter in your army expect massive casualties.

A hill giant gets a 2d8 +10 hit attack with out even using power attack and has a +16 to hit so he can afford to use it expect him to one shot any thing lower then level 3 with each swing.

And that's assuming hill giants if their frost giants your in even more trouble they have great cleave?

Does your dm use any kind of moral system? Can you expect your level 1 warriors to be fight on while suffering heavy casualties? A phalanx will just make it easier for them to cleave and likely your archers will suffer heavy casualties because giant have so many hit dice they are excellent shots and their rocks have equal to or greater range then the bows your force will be using so with those factors combined they can open fire from longer range.

Cavalry is very expensive and unless the pepole riding the horse have class levels the giant will just take them out with rocks from range before they get close enough to charge.

Of course this is all assuming basic giants if one has class levels your in even more trouble.

Forcing the giants to work for you might not be an option you might have to pay the giants not to attack the travelers. Attacking them for eating travelers might just make them angry and increase their violence against you and your pepole.

In a straight up fight, yes, giants would smear a band of humans but how many commanders worth their salt would fight by having their army haphazardly charge the other? Arm some catapults with firepots (basically a cheaper alchemists fire for artillery use), burn their fields to smoke them out, maybe divert a river to flood their caves... if your DM is doing his job he should have some interesting terrain mechanics worked out.

[Johel]

I have a few questions that I wanted to get people's opinions on:

Should I try and conquer threats?
How many soldiers am I likely to be starting with (meaning anyone that is part of the guard or easily usable)?
What would your character(s) do if they were the head of a large city?


Conquest :
Depends what said threats are and how willing you are to risk the lifes of your subjects. As a paladin, your duty is to exterminate Evil but also to protect the weaks and uphold the law. If it's just a couple Hill Giants, you could enlist as many crossbowmen as possible and force the Giants in the open to transform them into hedgehogs.

Military forces :
The SRD lists about 1% of the population as being professional soldiers serving in the Guard. Consider something like 0,1% of small-time mercenaries that work for guilds and petty nobles but that you could recruit. Among these are probably also a few low-level adventurers. If you really need soldiers in quantity, to conscript a milicia of about 5% of the population shouldn't be a problem.

What to do as a city's lord :
As a Paladin ? First, I would investigate on the city's main problems, both from outside and inside. Military threats are important but things like health, food&water supply and education are also important, especially since the temples could provide these services to reinforce the faith in my god.

Once my people are fed, have a roof and aren't dying of illness, I can take care of the future security by dealing with nearby monsters. I'll try to encourage my Order to set a monastery inside the city, to both recruit and train young paladins. In addition to the security boost, it will also create jobs, as these paladins will have needs.

Finally, I'll make sure to know of which trades the city is living. I'll then ask advisers to either find new opportunities for such trades or what can be done to encourage new trades. I won't take care of it personally, as I'm a holy warrior, not a merchant or a diplomat. I'll ask each advisors their ideas, what budget they need and the delay to implement it. Then I'll select the one that seems the best, based on cost, delay, profits and security.

I'd then start looking at my neighbors for allies or vassals. The Loyal-Good cities and kingdoms will get to be my allies. The others will either be conquered and their rulers replaced by "properly aligned" ones...or just destroyed, their properties and lands given to the people I think deserve it.

[awa]

hill giants arn't bright but there not going to sit still long enough to let you bring catapults into position and shell them and attempting to spend a few weeks diverting a river into the hill sounds like a really bad idea first you need a nearby river that your own pepole arnt relying on for their lively hood then you either need moderately powerfully casters or a lot of time and man power and for the giants not to come out and kill you while your doing it, and you need the giants cave to be down hill and not located say in the hills. Then after all that all you've managed to do is get the giants wet and angry which wont have changed the fact that they are hard core combatants in the slightest just the likely hood that they will cause even more harm to innocents in retaliation.

[awa]

so you advocate unprovoked attacks on neutral aligned governments? You could easily see your self losing that lawful good alignment.

Paladin make crappy rulers because they are not allowed to make morally Grey decisions for the greater good.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html

I Think attacking foreign powers and needlessly putting their peoples through the horrors of war so you can institute a puppet government will probably go over poorly with your gods.

Also depending on your dms interpretation of the rules your code of conducts requiring you to only hire lawful good "henchmen, followers, or cohorts" (srd) might give you a lot of trouble i bet at least a couple otherwise competent members of your bureaucracy are neutral or chaotic (even if that's neutral good or chaotic good)

[Tyndmyr]

I'd consider looking at the Grey Guard prestige class. They are allowed much more leniency in the pursuit of the greater good.

That said, if you have funds enough to afford a +2 item, assemble your weapon crafters. Start making masterwork weapons. They only cost 1/3rd regular price for materials....Continue until you have enough masterwork weapons stockpiled to arm any army you could conceivably raise. Armor as well, if possible, though only for those who will be proficient.

Realize that accuracy of commoners will be terrible, so non-proficiency with weapons really doesn't matter. Odds are, they will only hit on a 20 against most foes anyhow, so equip them with weapons that do the most damage possible when they do.

Get as many splash weapons as possible. Start with these in any combat. A a hundred commoners chucking acid and fire is actually amazingly dangerous. Relatively easy to pull off the attacks, too.

If you have casters, ensure they have true strike known. Also other traditional buff spells as per the situation. If you are fortunate enough to have higher leveled casters, use them to make defenses via creation/fabricate. The protection of the city comes first. Then the outlying areas.

[awa]

One problem i can see with an army of commoners is you will have huge casualties every battle and they are likely to run away the first time a giant gets any where near them.

Edit also the giants have very good range most mundane splash weapons have very short range

[jmbrown]

hill giants arn't bright but there not going to sit still long enough to let you bring catapults into position and shell them and attempting to spend a few weeks diverting a river into the hill sounds like a really bad idea first you need a nearby river that your own pepole arnt relying on for their lively hood then you either need moderately powerfully casters or a lot of time and man power and for the giants not to come out and kill you while your doing it, and you need the giants cave to be down hill and not located say in the hills. Then after all that all you've managed to do is get the giants wet and angry which wont have changed the fact that they are hard core combatants in the slightest just the likely hood that they will cause even more harm to innocents in retaliation.

Seeing as freshwater rivers originate in the hills it shouldn't be difficult for a team of 100 workers to build a crude wooden dam downhill from their caves. It may piss the giants off but it has the potential of drowning the orcs, wargs, and ruining their supplies. Mobilizing catapults doesn't take any longer than moving around a large army to begin with and being in the hills you have plenty of places to setup spotters and decoy artillery sights to divert the enemy.

Finally, you're dealing with nomadic chaotic evil monsters here. They'll pursue a goal so long as they know they can win with little pain on their behalf. The wargs and orcs will lead the charge and once their dealt with the giants will at least begin to reconsider if battle is actually worth it. As DM I'd say they'd flat out retreat if reduced to 2/3 their numbers. I'm chaotic evil, lazy, and dull witted... there's nothing to be gained from stomping these humans. Surely there's a poorly defended road a few days away that'll give me better pickings with fewer arrows launched at me.

[deuxhero]

I'd consider looking at the Grey Guard prestige class. They are allowed much more leniency in the pursuit of the greater good.

That said, if you have funds enough to afford a +2 item, assemble your weapon crafters. Start making masterwork weapons. They only cost 1/3rd regular price for materials....Continue until you have enough masterwork weapons stockpiled to arm any army you could conceivably raise. Armor as well, if possible, though only for those who will be proficient.

Realize that accuracy of commoners will be terrible, so non-proficiency with weapons really doesn't matter. Odds are, they will only hit on a 20 against most foes anyhow, so equip them with weapons that do the most damage possible when they do.

Get as many splash weapons as possible. Start with these in any combat. A a hundred commoners chucking acid and fire is actually amazingly dangerous. Relatively easy to pull off the attacks, too.

If you have casters, ensure they have true strike known. Also other traditional buff spells as per the situation. If you are fortunate enough to have higher leveled casters, use them to make defenses via creation/fabricate. The protection of the city comes first. Then the outlying areas.

If you mass commoners, there was an updated mob template on homebrew a month or so ago.

[awa]

by that same logic how many commoners do the giants have to kill before they run for their lives?

Giants have a decent spot check and have home field advantage all they need is one guy standing on a hill to spot you trying to get into position and then your hundred guys trying to redirect a river are going to find them selves under attack, also hill giants normaly have dire wolves not wargs and dire wolves are size large as well so you likely wont drown many of them either.

Destroying their supplies will just mean they need to go out and kill some more humans to eat for dinner.

the giants can just throw rocks at the people trying to man the catapults and their more accurate

[absolmorph]

The giants being able to hit my soldiers really hard is why I planned on using phalanx with long spears: they get hit as soon as they can hit the soldiers in melee.
The cavalry are likely to be the big heroes; I'll stick the strongest of the soldiers in there.
And I think it's relevant that this is a small army along with a party of adventurers in good equipment. My paladin is going to be fighting alongside them (probably on horseback with a lance) and there's going to be at least another one to three fighters, a sorcerer, a rogue, a druid, possibly a cleric and up to 2 wizards. Our group is pretty big. And the people there vary; myself and another player each have two characters, and we're pretty much always there.
I think working on building up my army first may be a better plan...

[absolmorph]

Okay, I have a question long-term management:
Should I require everyone to have training with a couple weapons (likely axe and bow), and each trained member in a household have their own weapons? The point of doing this would be to have the entire population be a threat to any invading armies: they may take out the military, but ANYONE in the city could attack them and be a threat. And, if it's really necessary, I can use my city as an army. Beyond being proficient with some weapons and keeping the weapons in their home, the military would be mostly law enforcement and patrols outside the city (law enforcement and watching for attacks).

[jmbrown]

Doesn't matter how well trained someone is, if they don't want to risk their lives they won't. You want to keep people fighting, you need their undying loyalty and fanaticism.

Second, there's a difference between training and being trained. A few days out of the week to get someone familiar with a weapon isn't enough to make them a warrior.

Ultimately you have to strike a balance between your military and your economy. The more people enlisted in mandatory service, the fewer people available to craft and farm.

As for mass combat itself, 3.5's rules are terrible for large scale armies. I'd pick up the miniatures handbook for rules on large scale combat (it also has a morale system which is something 3.5 lacks). An army of peasants backed up by trained soldiers have a far easier time taking on giants in the miniatures rules than they do 3.5.

[absolmorph]

I don't intend them to risk their lives; the point of having everyone trained (as in, proficient) is that there are so many people that could attack any army and a rebellion wouldn't struggle to be successful.
And, if an army is attacking, a rousing speech to convince them that they need to fight the attackers shouldn't be too hard to pull off for a fairly benevolent ruler. After all, by the time that happens my paladin alone is probably going to be a force to be reckoned with. The party as a whole? Pretty darn dangerous. The army that will be getting training so they specialize in one part (archery, pikes, cavalry, infantry, etc.) will also, hopefully, be useful.
I think I might just devote a notebook to this, it's gonna be quite a lot.

[Ashiel]

Coat ranged weapons in sleep (drow) poison. Market price 75gp, 25gp if you take the time to craft it. This will render each arrow a DC 13 save or loose (on a failed save you're out for 1 hour). This adds a 5% chance of dropping a giant (if they roll a 1) for every arrow that hits them. If you think Poison is for scoundrels, Mr. Paladin, then think of your people who will be dying out there. The giants aren't playing fair, now is the time to fight like those little babies of your kingdom depend on it!

The idea of using grenade weapons is a great one. Have groups twenty warriors charge in and acid-bomb the nearest target. Yes, they can hit the warriors with boulders as they close distance, but the boulders only hit one target at a time. You must overwhelm them with numbers, and quickly.

Lob burning pitch or jugs of water that have been prestidigitated to reek of skunk fumes, garlic, and onions into the battlefield. This is to make the scent ability more difficult to pick out your invisible spellcasters (see below). Use smoke screens or silent image spells to create total concealment against the boulders the giants will be throwing, to grant your troops a 50% avoidance until they can run through the illusions and into range with the giants for their grenade weapons.

Have low level wizards or similar casters use invisibility and get deep into the enemy lines. Have them cast summon swarm and just keep holding the concentrations on them each round as a standard action, while large groups of spider swarms coat and destroy the giants and their slaves (the small swarms deal 1d6 damage each round per swarm, and cannot be harmed by the giants or their weapons, and the swarms can enter spaces with other creatures - including other swarms, so a group of 3rd level invisible wizards can unleash hell onto the enemies (and likely demoralize them). Also, for each swarm sharing the giant's space at the beginning of its turn, you force a fortitude save or he looses his standard action that round, and that means a 5% chance per swarm he'll start puking. Not to mention the 5% chance per swarm of the spider poisons beginning to overwhelm him.

Cast entangle to halve the movement of giants in an absolutely massive radius (40ft wide from one end to another), and force checks to avoid being held (yes, they can break free easily, but it requires a full round action, and they can get stuck again).

Cast grease to halve their movement and make them all flat footed (this is great before lobbing grenade weapons or using touch spells). There's also the chance they'll fall down if they botch their saving throw.

Build huge traps and pits around a large open landscape near the battlefield. Fill the pits with pitch and tar, and maybe oil. Fake a retreat during the battle, and have everyone pull back. When pursued, the size of the giants will cause the pit traps to give way, dipping them waist to pits deep into pitch and tar. Have archers light the entire battlefield aflame, with the giants covered in burning death! Here's the relevant rules: Heat Dangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#heatDangers). I would peg immersion in burning tar to be at least equivalent to being immersed in boiling water, which is about 10d6 damage per round of exposure.

When they do, release the Hounds of Heaven cavalry brigade to charge the giants through the smoke screen! Let the thunder of the horses make them fear the small men! Have them blessed before the charge and let them dive into the tar-covered, flame broiled, prone giants! Let the suffering screams of evil be your hymn to victory!

If the giants seek retreat, do not give it to them! They did had their chance, and evil never gives up! Pull catapults harnessed by oxen, and hurl more flaming pitch or boiling water, or even the skunk fumes at them! Make them remember! Make them KNOW exactly what it means to hurt your people, and exactly how much you will PUNISH THEM for it!

...I may be getting a little to deep into this. :smallamused:

So on second thought...purchase a candle of invocation, gate in a solar, have that solar summon a heavenly host of other solars, and proceed to have them smite the evil giants in the name of ze Lord. Amen. :smalltongue:

[Johel]

Okay, I have a question long-term management:
Should I require everyone to have training with a couple weapons (likely axe and bow), and each trained member in a household have their own weapons? The point of doing this would be to have the entire population be a threat to any invading armies: they may take out the military, but ANYONE in the city could attack them and be a threat. And, if it's really necessary, I can use my city as an army. Beyond being proficient with some weapons and keeping the weapons in their home, the military would be mostly law enforcement and patrols outside the city (law enforcement and watching for attacks).

You could set a "practice day" like in England : all sports and games were banned on Saterday, except for the bow. This helped to create a reliable pool of recruitment for the army bowmen.

Otherwise, a military service of 6 months once you hit your 16th birthday, with a dispense if a master craftsman or a scholar can prove you've been his apprentice for the last two years and will be so for the next two years, too.

Third option is a "youth movement", like the scouts. Basically, you offer to the poorest families to send their kids into community service in exchange for a few silver coins. It's a win-win : parents don't have to look after the kids, they got money to feed the kids, the kids learn the basics of a few trades along with weapon handling, you get trained recruits and reinforce patriotism.

This won't make for elite troops but at least, people will know how to use a specific weapon and be useful in case of siege. Also, it's a great way to encourage potential recruits, as they discover their talent without having to sign anything. Of course, the effect wouldn't really kick before a few years. Ask the GM if the commoners from this city can then have Proficiency : [1 Martial Weapon] instead of the usual 1 common weapon.


The giants being able to hit my soldiers really hard is why I planned on using phalanx with long spears: they get hit as soon as they can hit the soldiers in melee.

Hill Giant : 102 hp
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
A close formation is not a good idea, here...

Long spear : 13,5 damage (average)
If 5% of the spears attacks hit, that means we need 151 attacks to kill a single giant. At best, with long spears, we can gather 24 men around the giant. Because the long spear can't attack against an adjacent foe, only 16 men will actually fight. More men are waiting behind and rush forward once a man is killed.

A giant in full attack can kill 2 men per round. More, if people provoke AoO.
151 attacks / 16 men = 9 rounds
9 rounds x 2 attacks = 18 victims
Using long spears, 18 men will die for each giant if they can surround the giant. If they can't, it will take even longer and more people will die.
The army will have to count at least 20 men per giant. Most men will die horribly.

Short bow : 10,5 damage (average)
Crossbow : 9 damage (average)
If 5% of the missiles hit, that means we need 194 arrows or 226 bolts to kill a single giant. Basically, here, there's no need for strict discipline : the men are scattered around, up to 800 away from the giants, and hope for a lucky shot (natural 20). Each man fights as an individual, aiming at the nearest giant, firing, reloading, aiming, firing...

If a giant approach at less than 100 ft, then it's time to run and hope the giant will go after somebody else. Given the speed difference, the giant will close 20ft per round. That means it takes 5 rounds for a giant to kill a single man. During this time, every man at more than 100 ft from him will fire at him.
With 25 men per giant, the fight will last 10 rounds at worst, with 1 victim.
With 15 men per giant, the fight will last 20 rounds at worst, with 2 victims.
Count an additional 2 or 3 victims per giant if they throw rocks.

EDIT :
Ok, I forgot the fact that the 5% were critical hits.
Correction done.

[absolmorph]

My current plan is to have cavalry with lances charging through, and cavalry archers backing them up (with short bows), and foot archers around with long bows. The phalanx will be back up for them, primarily there to cover for the archers (who are most dangerous to the giants). Perhaps I should have some troops with cross bows hiding around?
All the weapons are going to be masterwork.

Assuming all level 1 warriors (and ignoring my party), cavalry archers will be hitting on 20s only and can easily keep away from the giants (minimum of 20 ft. faster), dealing an average of 0.1725 damage a round. The foot archers will be hitting on 19 and 20 (maybe more) and dealing an average of 0.52 damage a round. It would take 196 attacks to kill each giant with only foot archers and 591 attacks to kill one with cavalry archers. And cross bows would kill them in 170 attacks (0.6 average damage per round).
My paladin alone deals an average of 11 damage, and will hit on anything above 11 (without any boosts). I'm gonna see about using a lance and mount, which will bring my damage up to an average of 17.6 per round. I would kill a giant with 5 mounted charge attacks. My sorcerer will be dealing 1d6+1 strength damage per turn, for as long as possible. He's probably going to have a couple wands.
This won't just be the little people bashing those giants. Some of the big damn heroes are going to be there, mostly in the thick of things. And I think I may have come up with a better plan than I had...

Scrolls of Entangle. And wands of Ray of Enfeeblement and Magic Missile.
And lots of archers. Lots and lots of archers. The Ray of Enfeeblements hit the big threats (the ones closest to the edge of Entangled areas) and archers pick them off. The cavalry can ride around the edges.
Assuming three druids (our party and 2 others), 3 40-ft. radius spreads will be hit each round, lasting for a minute each. The archers get an extra 10% chance to hit (-4 Dex) and the giants can only move up to 20 ft. per round. And that's assuming they can even break free of entanglement
Any giant close to the edge will get an average of 4 Str damage from a few casters. They can break free on a 13 without Str damage. Each hit increases the needed roll by 2. And they're going to be getting hit 20% of the time by the archers.
Meaning 98 longbow attacks or 85 crossbow attacks. There's also going to be my paladin riding around, dealing around 22 damage per hit. And other cavalry guys, riding around and dealing 8 damage plus twice their Str mod.

I could probably go on, but I need to go.

[Ashiel]

I came up with another idea while thinking about it. The haste spell would be perfect for anyone, but especially your archers. The reason is haste affects one person per caster level, and provides bonuses on attacks as well as an additional attack per round.

You might consider buffing some of the archer squads with haste if you can arrange for someone to cast it. It's about 225gp per charge, IIRC, so you might be able to afford a few wands that are low on charges.

Also, consider the same strategy with some other wands. If you can craft wands with less than 50 charges (may require the DM's OK) or purchase them with fewer charges (second-hand wands), then you might be able to get a few "secret weapons". Maybe a few wands of Black Tentacles, Stinking Cloud, or even polymorph. A few improved invisibility cloaked wizards who each cast polymorph into invisible 7-headed hydras could help you defeat the giants.

[absolmorph]

For haste, I would need 5th level wizards or 6th level sorcerers. I've only got access to spells up to 2nd level, most likely. If I can get haste, however, I will give it to my archers. Who, now that I'm thinking more about it, will be using cross bows.
That'll speed things up. And I'll see about getting Glitterdust wands or scrolls. Preferably scrolls, because they're easier to make.