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Matamane
2009-12-19, 03:53 AM
So far we have

Magical Artisan
Exceptional Artisan
Master Artisan
Legendary Artisan

Anybody have any others

Ashiel
2009-12-19, 04:45 AM
If you use the suggested % discounts in the DMG for items requiring particular bits to use, such as class or alignment, you can knock off another 40%, but a lot of DMs will get very upset if you try to do this (especially in conjuction with the cost reducing feats). I would advise asking your DM about it on a case by case basis really. It's not difficult when doing so that you end up creating items that only you could use effectively, making them both cheaper and less desirable by thieves.

Truthfully, the feats you already mentioned are likely enough as is. You can get a pair of 25% discounts on the GP cost, as well as a 25% discount on XP and Time cost. If you make a few dedicated Wrights, the time discounts mean even less (or maybe even more, depending on your views).

Matamane
2009-12-19, 04:56 AM
How would a dedicated wright help with cost?

Ashiel
2009-12-19, 05:14 AM
How would a dedicated wright help with cost?

It only helps in the terms of the cost of time, but in a different way than the artisan feats. You normally are only allowed to craft 1 magic item at a time. So if you need 1 day to brew a potion, and 1 day to craft a scroll, it takes you two days to do both, obviously. The dedicated wright allows you to supply your caster level, appropriate spells, materials, and anything else, then leave the critter to its own devices to finish the crafting.

This means it now only takes you 1 day to brew and scribe the items. It has effectively reduced the amount of time it takes YOU to craft one of the items by 100%. It doesn't actually reduce the time it takes to craft the actual item, but it's saving you the time it would take to make them each individually. In the case of wanting only 1 item, it saves you the 8 hours that day crafting, meaning that you can go adventuring or to the local pizza parlor while your item is being crafted for you.

Some say this makes the time reducing feat less appealing, as you don't need to "get to work" on the next item nearly as quickly in almost all cases. It is arguable that it actually makes the feats better because it applies to everything your wrights are doing too, meaning your helpers are more efficient, and thus saving you even more time.

These examples are especially true when you're attempting to mass-produce low-cost magic items. With a few dedicated wrights sitting around, you can produce potions, scrolls, wands, and miscellaneous items in groups per day, as with 3 wights, you could produce 4 scrolls per day, rather than 1 scroll per day, which could be seen as a 300% increase in crafting speed.

Also, the wrights are constructs and needn't breath. For this very reason, you can acquire (or craft, of course) a portable hole, bag of holding, or other extra-dimensional handbag or something and set up shop inside, where you may then drag your wight around with you while he's working. If it will take you 1 week to get from City A to City B, then your wight can be crafting the full 7 days while you're traveling. That is very efficient.

Food for thought. :smallamused:

Matamane
2009-12-19, 05:26 AM
Valid enough reasoning, but still, assuming time is not an issue, how could one reduce the GP and XP value for crafting items.

Ashiel
2009-12-19, 05:54 AM
Valid enough reasoning, but still, assuming time is not an issue, how could one reduce the GP and XP value for crafting items.

Hmmm, it depends on your definition of "lowering cost", as well as how cheesy you want to get with it. Here's a few things to think about:

Feats: As mentioned before, the artisan feats reduce the GP cost, XP cost, and time cost by 25%. The magical artisan feat reduces GP cost by a further 25% (so 100 becomes 75 which then becomes 56.25).
Dedicated Wright: Cuts down on time costs for crafting (putting it within the realm of the artisan feats, and also benefits from said feats, as well as the feats making it cheaper to craft dedicated wrights).
Reductions as described in the DMG: Specific class only, -30%. Specific alignment only, -10%. In theory, you can build magic items that are fine tuned for a very specific type of character, that cannot be used otherwise with UMD checks, while making it incredibly cheap. (For fun, a wand of cure-light wounds only usable by barbarians is good humor.)
Gaining Wish as a spell-like ability, such as by being a Chosen of Mystra, or Gating in outsiders to cast it for you, allows you to create any magic item regardless of value instantly and for no cost at all (even if the magic item would have a value of 1 billion+ gold pieces).


I can't think of any other methods off the top of my head, but there you go. I would note that using the Wish method is insanely dirty, and likely will incur injury due to air-born manuals approaching you at dangerous speeds. :smallsmile:

Matamane
2009-12-19, 08:16 AM
So if I made an item work only for a character who is NE, an Artificer, and has 15 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana), I could lower the cost by 70%?

Ashiel
2009-12-19, 09:09 AM
So if I made an item work only for a character who is NE, an Artificer, and has 15 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana), I could lower the cost by 70%?

Possibly. I'd check with your DM. These are guidelines as opposed to hard and fast rules. A hard and fast rule is like those with wands (spell level x caster level x 750gp), whereas the ones listed in the DMG specifically mention if they have a class requirement (think Paladin + Holy Avenger), Alignment, or if it requires a skill check to use. You could, maybe, get it down to 50% (-30% off for only being usable by a single class, -10% for your alignment only, and -10% for requiring either a UMD or Knowledge Arcana check).

This can get pretty close to the realm of abuse. A lot of DMs won't really like the idea of someone crafting items whose market value should probably be more than eight times what you're crafting it for (and you'd also be crafting it faster). I'm unsure if I'd allow this in my games (and I promise, I'm pretty darn open minded - check some of my other posts :smallamused:). Even with the fact that you may still be limited in how powerful a single item can be based on your caster level (you have to have a caster level of a certain amount to add +enhancement of a certain size to items), it still would be crazy.

Like I said, speak with your DM about it, and discuss your concept. I'd be more apt to allow the reductions on "toolbox" type items, on a case by case basis depending on the flavor and how much of it was "you" rather than "cool-item-#5". However, if your DM doesn't buy it, don't push it. If he lets you take the artisan feats and the magical artisan feat, he's being quite fair. :smallsmile:

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-19, 09:39 AM
These examples are especially true when you're attempting to mass-produce low-cost magic items. With a few dedicated wrights sitting around, you can produce potions, scrolls, wands, and miscellaneous items in groups per day, as with 3 wights, you could produce 4 scrolls per day, rather than 1 scroll per day, which could be seen as a 300% increase in crafting speed.


I'm sure you can't make magic items in groups this way. You can only work on 1 magic item at a time, even with the wrights. (but you could have one making a magical item, and the other three making valuable trade goods)

Zaydos
2009-12-19, 09:45 AM
There are power components if your DM uses them, but those were Dragon Magazine stuff so it's not going to be common.

Matamane
2009-12-19, 10:34 AM
Anything to cheaply make items :)

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-19, 10:44 AM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) gives rules for people supplying their own XP for items, saving you from using your own XP/Craft Reserve.

bosssmiley
2009-12-19, 11:42 AM
3E already cheapened the art of magic item creation. Back in the day it was a creative process negotiated between player and DM, not an exercise in spreadsheet manipulation.

Oh wait. You meant the <i>other</i> sense of cheapen.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-19, 11:55 AM
The Apprentice (Craftsman) feat from the DMG II reduces the base cost of any item you create by 10%. This stacks with the Legendary and Extraordinary Artisan feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting. I'm using them on my psion//artificer right now, and I've got over 200k in magic items with my level 11 WBL (though I am burning his entire craft reserve and most of a level to get that).

Also, speaking of artificer, they get a craft reserve (saves you XP), and an ability that lets you drain XP from items to use in crafting other items, so you don't have to worry about selling magical items at 1/2 cost just to buy what you want at full cost. This gets really expensive if you use it to drain crafting points from previously made items, though, since you have to spend your gp twice.

Craft skill checks will net you a 2/3 discount on mundane items (many of which are crazy-useful, such as wand bracers and trade goods that can be used by an adventurer, such as flour for revealing invisible enemies, and lard or marbles for a grease effect).

[edit] Oh, and I forgot to mention; artificer allows you to create items 2 levels before they'd otherwise be available, but they use the reduced caster level of the artificer. This means you can create a scroll of gate at 15th level, using 15 as the CL of the scroll, thereby reducing the base cost and therefore your gp and XP expenditure. This adds up really fast when you use it on spells whose effects aren't dependent on CL, especially.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 02:15 PM
[edit] Oh, and I forgot to mention; artificer allows you to create items 2 levels before they'd otherwise be available, but they use the reduced caster level of the artificer. This means you can create a scroll of gate at 15th level, using 15 as the CL of the scroll, thereby reducing the base cost and therefore your gp and XP expenditure. This adds up really fast when you use it on spells whose effects aren't dependent on CL, especially.Actually, that doesn't work. The item uses the Artificer's level or it's minimum, whichever is higher. Which can get very confusing, very quickly.

sofawall
2009-12-19, 02:32 PM
Actually, that doesn't work. The item uses the Artificer's level or it's minimum, whichever is higher. Which can get very confusing, very quickly.

I see the exact opposite in ECS. They use the example of a 3d6 fireball.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 02:35 PM
I see the exact opposite in ECS. They use the example of a 3d6 fireball.Caster level for the item is the Artificer's level, caster level for price is the higher of the artificers level or the item's minimum.

See why I said it gets confusing?

Flawless
2009-12-19, 02:45 PM
You coukd use a thought bottle from Complete Mage. It let's you save your XP for - I think - 500XP. So, when you want to create some expensive item(s), you could use the bottle then craft your stuff and load your former XPs.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-19, 03:08 PM
So if I made an item work only for a character who is NE, an Artificer, and has 15 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana), I could lower the cost by 70%?

Potentially. However, if I'm DMing, that kind of limited use is a "security feature" rather than a discount. That is, it doesn't affect the cost to make it, but it does affect how much you can get by selling it.

AKA, a sword that can only be used by a woman (or one that makes CERTAIN it's wielder is a woman) was likely made as a gift to a bride by someone who didn't trust the husband - as her husband couldn't take it from her. A Shield that only works for followers of Grummish was built by Grummish priests for war - so that their opponents can't use them after the battle if, for some bizarre reason, the Grummish warparty loses. And so on.

Alternately, if the player keeps pressing, all items are built that way (Seriously: If it's possible, and makes things a lot less expensive, why wouldn't every crafter do that, unless they're specifically making it for sale to an unknown party?). Which means the opponent you're about to face has 10 times his useful gear (It's all discounted by 90%), and you're going to need to make about ten different UMD checks (on which you can't take ten. And which I'll require you to roll regardless) to use it yourself. Every time. As it's restricted by alignment, race, class, gender, skin color, hair color, name, deity, and so on. And you're not getting any more for selling it than you would for standard gear. Or maybe no merchant will touch it after learning how it's restricted, so you're not getting anything for selling it at all.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-19, 03:42 PM
You coukd use a thought bottle from Complete Mage. It let's you save your XP for - I think - 500XP. So, when you want to create some expensive item(s), you could use the bottle then craft your stuff and load your former XPs.

Complete Arcane, and never allow this item into your campaign unless your DM frequents the TO boards.

Ashiel
2009-12-19, 04:56 PM
I'm sure you can't make magic items in groups this way. You can only work on 1 magic item at a time, even with the wrights. (but you could have one making a magical item, and the other three making valuable trade goods)


The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.

A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the under-construction item are wasted.
Emphasis mine.

It's not the character who is working on the item. The character provides the prerequisites, requiring a mere 1 hour, granting the wright the prerequisite spells and other requirements. The caster is not working on the item, and may begin working on another item if desired, or use a different dedicated wright. To be clear, I double checked the definition of working (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/working), which further suggests that this reading is valid. Additionally, nothing in the dedicated wright's description contradicts this.

I find this setup ideal from both a player and DM standpoint. It makes it possible to create low-level consumables rather quickly. It also allows you to work on multiple items for your party members, rather than choosing between them. By creating multiple dedicated wrights to work on different items (which is rather expensive at 2,100gp + 160XP per wright), you can work on a wand for the party's cleric, a sword for the party's fighter, and boots for the party's ranger, while still being able to adventure with them at the same time.

Sounds pretty win/win to me. It allows a character to produce more items faster, and allows the DM to keep the game moving while the items are being created. While you can have multiple expensive items being created at the same time, this can be a bit draining on multiple fronts for the caster, which some players would rather do without. I still advocate its use for cheap items that you may want multiples of (such as scrolls, potions, wands, and minor wondrous items). :smallsmile: