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Myrmex
2009-12-19, 04:14 AM
What's the earliest level you can qualify for this class?
Is the constant AoE damage of 3d10 fire damage + heat metal really an at will ability? That seems pretty sweet.

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-19, 04:54 AM
You need 3 levels of cleric with the Sand and Thirst Domain to qualify, is the intent of the prerequisites. That's the first time you'd be able to cast at least three spells of the Sand and Thirst Domain.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 07:26 AM
The intent is actually probably fifth level, considering they use the word "or" in the prerequisites.

Considering almost all PrCs are designed to be entered at level six...

(I can only think of one example of a PrC that can be entered earlier - Master Specialist.)

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-19, 07:33 AM
(I can only think of one example of a PrC that can be entered earlier - Master Specialist.)

Stoneblessed.

Ryuuk
2009-12-19, 07:49 AM
And the Dragonmarked prestige classes in Eberron, usually 5th too.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 08:01 AM
But the vast majority of PrCs are meant to be taken when you hit level 6. Walker in the Wastes has powers that strike me as appropriate for a character in the 6-10 range.

Ernir
2009-12-19, 09:16 AM
Mystic Theurge is clearly meant to be taken at level 4. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I read the entry requirements as "either three spells of the Sand domain or three spells of the Thirst domain". "Domain" lacks pluralization in the description.
Is anyone here good at English grammar? I think it comes down to that.
Or more accurately, your DM. :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2009-12-19, 09:56 AM
The example character (under the entry for the Dry Lich) was a Cleric 5 before entering this prestige class.

HCL
2009-12-19, 10:40 AM
Anima mage can be entered at level 3 with PA or

Rainbow servant can be entered at level 2 with warmage, DN or beguiler + improved sigil krau and PA

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 11:16 AM
Anima mage can be entered at level 3 with PA or

Rainbow servant can be entered at level 2 with warmage, DN or beguiler + improved sigil krau and PA

Yes yes, we know about the tricks for early entry. That doesn't mean the PrC was designed to be entered early, just that some innovative individuals found a trick involving sourcebook A, B and C to enter a prestige class printed in sourcebook X.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 02:19 PM
Yes yes, we know about the tricks for early entry. That doesn't mean the PrC was designed to be entered early, just that some innovative individuals found a trick involving sourcebook A, B and C to enter a prestige class printed in sourcebook X.Yes, because Versatile Spellcaster(RotD)+Heighten Spell(Core)+Sorcerer(Core)+Mystic Theurge(Core) definitely weren't intended to work together.

PrGo
2009-12-19, 02:38 PM
Anima mage can be entered at level 3 with PA or

Rainbow servant can be entered at level 2 with warmage, DN or beguiler + improved sigil krau and PA

Can you please define what "PA" means? Much appreciated :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 02:39 PM
Can you please define what "PA" means? Much appreciated :smallbiggrin:Precocious Apprentice, feat from CArc that gives you a single second level slot at level 1. Versatile Spellcaster also works.

Mongoose87
2009-12-19, 02:40 PM
Can you please define what "PA" means? Much appreciated :smallbiggrin:

Precocious Apprentice. It's a feat that gives you one 2nd-level spell, as a first-level caster. It is either the best way to get into dual-casting classes, or totally illegal for that, depending on who you ask.

EDIT: Where's my kidney!? NINJAAAAAAAAA!

ADDITIONAL EDIT: How do you get into Rainbow Servant so early with Warmage?

Zanatos777
2009-12-19, 04:10 PM
The example character (under the entry for the Dry Lich) was a Cleric 5 before entering this prestige class.

Even more confusing: the example character for the prestige class is a druid.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-19, 04:15 PM
Even more confusing: the example character for the prestige class is a druid.

I haven't been able to decide who to shoot first; the editors who let this slip by, or the guys who actually write it and forget about it.

If an ability has no limit to uses/day, it may have been errata'ed. If not, making it run off of Turn attempts is a good way to balance it out (but 3d10 fire isn't that much, so it may be fine just saying it is at will depending on the level it is obtained at).

Myrmex
2009-12-19, 05:27 PM
Even more confusing: the example character for the prestige class is a druid.

A druid qualifies for the PrC by level 5, though. So does a wizard.

golem1972
2009-12-19, 05:53 PM
Archivist 1 with the Mad Faith feat and moderate or severe taint (depending on whether or not you need 3 spells of 2 domains or 1 domain).

Mad Faith gives you a bonus 2nd level spell slot for moderate taint, and a bonus 3rd level slot for sever taint.

I guess a Necropolitan Archivist would be the best way to go there. Archivist 1 / Walker 10 / Winterhaunt 9 is a fun way to play Mr. Icy-Hot.

tyckspoon
2009-12-19, 05:55 PM
Archivist 1 with the Mad Faith feat and moderate or severe taint (depending on whether or not you need 3 spells of 2 domains or 1 domain).

Mad Faith gives you a bonus 2nd level spell slot for moderate taint, and a bonus 3rd level slot for sever taint.

I guess a Necropolitan Archivist would be the best way to go there. Archivist 1 / Walker 10 / Winterhaunt 9 is a fun way to play Mr. Icy-Hot.

You can't have bonus slots in spell levels that you don't have yet. If that worked, you wouldn't need any sort of special tricks for early entry at all- just have a suitably high starting score.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-19, 06:29 PM
You can't have bonus slots in spell levels that you don't have yet. If that worked, you wouldn't need any sort of special tricks for early entry at all- just have a suitably high starting score.

It depends if Mad Faith gives bonus slots or extra slots, I think. Kind of like how a Focused Specialist with PA can circumvent the entire issue of where that 2nd level spell slot goes when the character gets 2nd level divine slots.

EDIT: D'oh, just saw he said "bonus" slots. My bad.

Myrmex
2009-12-19, 06:30 PM
Archivist 1 with the Mad Faith feat and moderate or severe taint (depending on whether or not you need 3 spells of 2 domains or 1 domain).

Mad Faith gives you a bonus 2nd level spell slot for moderate taint, and a bonus 3rd level slot for sever taint.

I guess a Necropolitan Archivist would be the best way to go there. Archivist 1 / Walker 10 / Winterhaunt 9 is a fun way to play Mr. Icy-Hot.

You need +2 fort save to get req feat.

golem1972
2009-12-20, 12:36 AM
You can't have bonus slots in spell levels that you don't have yet. If that worked, you wouldn't need any sort of special tricks for early entry at all- just have a suitably high starting score.

My bad. :) I forgot about the bonus spells thing. We had a discussion on bonus spells from ability scores vs. feats, but I can't remember how they got around it. Something about Archivist 1 / Dread Necromancer 1 + Precocious Apprentice + Necropolitan Template = Necropolitan Archivist 1 + 2nd level divine slot.

I don't remember how they got PA without an arcane caster level at first, and managed to lose it while keeping a divine caster level when losing levels to Necropolitan.

So, without extreme cheese, or questionable ruling... Archivist 3 should get you in (or cleric with sand and thirst domains). You just have to buy the right scrolls.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-20, 09:09 AM
I always assumed that this class was meant to be entered at level 3. The wording didn't seem unclear to me (compare to, say, Precocious Apprentice...)

HCL
2009-12-20, 01:52 PM
Precocious Apprentice. It's a feat that gives you one 2nd-level spell, as a first-level caster. It is either the best way to get into dual-casting classes, or totally illegal for that, depending on who you ask.

EDIT: Where's my kidney!? NINJAAAAAAAAA!

ADDITIONAL EDIT: How do you get into Rainbow Servant so early with Warmage?

I believe the requirement on Rainbow Servant is 3rd level spells and 4 ranks spellcraft + finding the coatl temple

A 1st level Illumian warmage can take precocious apprentice or versatile spellcaster + heighten to get second level spells, then use Improved Sigil Krau (racial feat from races of destiny, heightens 2 spells of your choice by one level) to heighten those spells to third level, and go into rainbow servant.

Stycotl
2009-12-21, 09:44 PM
Is the constant AoE damage of 3d10 fire damage + heat metal really an at will ability? That seems pretty sweet.

what ability is this that you are talking about?

Gametime
2009-12-21, 11:25 PM
Yes, because Versatile Spellcaster(RotD)+Heighten Spell(Core)+Sorcerer(Core)+Mystic Theurge(Core) definitely weren't intended to work together.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, so excuse me if I'm off base, but do you honestly think it WAS intended to work together? Things all being in the core books don't mean the designers had any idea how they worked together.

Even in that scenario, Versatile Spellcaster is pretty clearly the odd duck out. I have a hard time believing they intended it to be used to cast spells of higher level than you are meant to.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-21, 11:47 PM
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, so excuse me if I'm off base, but do you honestly think it WAS intended to work together? Things all being in the core books don't mean the designers had any idea how they worked together.

Even in that scenario, Versatile Spellcaster is pretty clearly the odd duck out. I have a hard time believing they intended it to be used to cast spells of higher level than you are meant to.

Whether or not that was the original intent is besides the point. There were a few Sage rulings that came about which essentially boiled down to "Huh, yeah, that works. Props for finding that out. If you or your DM feels like ruling it otherwise, though, go ahead."

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-22, 01:18 AM
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, so excuse me if I'm off base, but do you honestly think it WAS intended to work together? Things all being in the core books don't mean the designers had any idea how they worked together.

Even in that scenario, Versatile Spellcaster is pretty clearly the odd duck out. I have a hard time believing they intended it to be used to cast spells of higher level than you are meant to.The primary use of it, according to Sage and FAQ, was to allow a Sorc to Heighten spells to a level higher than they could cast.

UserClone
2009-12-22, 02:22 AM
The Sage ruling was that you could use it to cast Metamagicked spells of the highest level you can cast, but not cast spells you don't know by virtue of class level alone. So you could use it to cast a heightened scorching ray, but not to cast a fireball as a 3rd-level Wizard.

Myrmex
2009-12-22, 02:45 AM
The Sage ruling was that you could use it to cast Metamagicked spells of the highest level you can cast, but not cast spells you don't know by virtue of class level alone. So you could use it to cast a heightened scorching ray, but not to cast a fireball as a 3rd-level Wizard.

You mean a 4th level warmage. Wizards don't usually get Versatile Spellcaster, unless they're doing a UM build.

UserClone
2009-12-22, 02:51 AM
Whoops, right you are, I'd meant to say 4th-level sorcerer, but I was really tired and forgot the prereq for the feat. No cookie for me, sadly.:smallfrown:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-22, 09:51 AM
The Sage ruling was that you could use it to cast Metamagicked spells of the highest level you can cast, but not cast spells you don't know by virtue of class level alone. So you could use it to cast a heightened scorching ray, but not to cast a fireball as a 3rd-level WizardWarmage.There's debate over that. The issue is that the school-based spont casters know all spells of each level they can cast. So if one of them has versatile spellcaster, 2nd level spells, and Heighten Spell, he can cast 3rd level spells, therefore he knows his 3rd level list.

UserClone
2009-12-22, 11:50 AM
Which you and I and everyone we know can agree is utter bollocks. The fact you can use metamagic on a higher-level spell than normal, irrespective of what that metamagic is, has no bearing on what level of spells you know how to cast. Put simply, when a prereq asks whether you can casts spells of a given level, FEATS DON'T COUNT. The only DM that allows it is going to be that obnoxious antagonistic one who lets his NPCs pull that early PrC entry crap, too, and then you're worse off, because there are simply more NPCs than there are PCs.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-22, 12:23 PM
Which you and I and everyone we know can agree is utter bollocks. The fact you can use metamagic on a higher-level spell than normal, irrespective of what that metamagic is, has no bearing on what level of spells you know how to cast. Put simply, when a prereq asks whether you can casts spells of a given level, FEATS DON'T COUNT. The only DM that allows it is going to be that obnoxious antagonistic one who lets his NPCs pull that early PrC entry crap, too, and then you're worse off, because there are simply more NPCs than there are PCs.

I am not sure how this can be viewed as bullocks, considering things like this turn utterly worthless feats (Sanctum Spell) into marginally useful feats that allow you to squeeze in your "primary" levels earlier, making sure your allies can hit things harder than usual and get normally personally only spells ASAP.

UserClone
2009-12-22, 12:34 PM
How is Sanctum Spell ever useful for a PC?

Wizard: "Oh hey, party members. IF you guys just hang out here for a quick three moths plus seven days, I'll be able to kick slightly more ass on your behalf!"

Cleric: *dubious look*

Fighter: *looks away sheepishly, shuffles feet*

Rogue: *long pause* I think we'll just check this out ourselves. Have fun with that, though. *gives thumbs up*

*rest of the party walks into the dungeon*

So even if you allowed Sanctum Spell to qualify you to cast a spell of a higher level than normal, you can only do it in a very small area of the Material Plane*



*Unless for some reason, you come from another plane, or have designated your sanctum on one

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-22, 12:40 PM
How is Sanctum Spell ever useful for a PC?

So even if you allowed Sanctum Spell to qualify you to cast a spell of a higher level than normal, you can only do it in a very small area of the Material Plane*



*Unless for some reason, you come from another plane, or have designated your sanctum on one

Well, to qualify for things like War Weaver and Spellguard of Silverymoon two levels early, of course! Outside of that, considering the idea of a Sanctum is ill-defined by the feat itself (I want to say the initial printing back in 3.0 gave a listed area that qualified based on Caster level, but that was missing come Complete Arcane), if you can negotiate with the DM, it could be marginally more useful in a city based campagin... like the aforementioned Spellguard.

tyckspoon
2009-12-22, 12:56 PM
Well, to qualify for things like War Weaver and Spellguard of Silverymoon two levels early, of course! Outside of that, considering the idea of a Sanctum is ill-defined by the feat itself (I want to say the initial printing back in 3.0 gave a listed area that qualified based on Caster level, but that was missing come Complete Arcane), if you can negotiate with the DM, it could be marginally more useful in a city based campagin... like the aforementioned Spellguard.

The most optimized uses of it I've seen actually rely on the not-cast-in-your-sanctum "drawback", such as using Lesser metamagic rods on level 4 spells and otherwise skipping around certain spell-level based restrictions. I think the cheesiest was setting up a recursive Arcane Fusion spell such that the Arcane Fusion contained another Arcane Fusion.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-22, 01:37 PM
The most optimized uses of it I've seen actually rely on the not-cast-in-your-sanctum "drawback", such as using Lesser metamagic rods on level 4 spells and otherwise skipping around certain spell-level based restrictions. I think the cheesiest was setting up a recursive Arcane Fusion spell such that the Arcane Fusion contained another Arcane Fusion.

That's probably one of better ways to use it, certainly. In my own personal experience, I made it do double time, qualifying me a few levels early for both War Weaver and Spellguard, then turning around and throwing down 6th level personal buff spells into the WW's tapestry before Legacy Champion got the vote of approval/denial.