PDA

View Full Version : Natural Attack iteratives?



term1nally s1ck
2009-12-19, 08:01 PM
I've been looking around, and can't figure out how Natural attacks work as iterations.

If I use a weapon to full attack, can I attack with any of the natural weapons too, as I believe you can use all of them if you full attack with them, but I have no idea how a weapon adds into that.

And what happens if I have BAB over 5, and multiple natural attacks? Which (if any) get the iteratives?

HCL
2009-12-19, 08:05 PM
Your primary weapon makes your normal iteratives, whether it is a natural weapon or manufactured.

You can use "secondary" natural weapons to make attacks at your BAB -5 (Multiattack reduces to -2). Generally though you can't attack with a natural weapon and a weapon held in that limb (like attacking with a weapon in your hand + claws on that hand or a weapon in your teeth + a bite)

Lyndworm
2009-12-19, 08:08 PM
Natural Attacks never get iteration. You can make them in addition to every other attack in a full attack at you highest attack bonus, with any applicable penalties such as whether or not the attack is secondary.

Ninja'ed! And with more information, too!

Keld Denar
2009-12-19, 08:09 PM
Your primary weapon makes your normal iteratives, whether it is a natural weapon or manufactured.


Incorrect. Natural Attacks almost NEVER make iteratives, primary or secondary. The only way to get iteratives with natural attacks is to take the Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike feats from the Draconomicon.

If you have a weapon, you can make your full iteratives with that, and all of your manufactured weapons are considered secondary.

So, if you have a +11 BAB and the Deepspawn feat (Lords of Madness, gives you 2 tenticles), you would make the following attack sequence:

+11/+6/+1 Weapon
+6/+6 Tenticle

If you had a bite attack as well, you'd have:
+11/+6/+1 Weapon
+6/+6 Tenticle
+6 Bite

HCL
2009-12-19, 08:12 PM
Incorrect. Natural Attacks almost NEVER make iteratives, primary or secondary. The only way to get iteratives with natural attacks is to take the Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike feats from the Draconomicon.

Really? So how is totemist damage supposed to get so high, do they use a weapon in their teeth via the Lords of Madness enhancement and then make secondaries with all their claws?

evil-frosty
2009-12-19, 08:13 PM
Why dont they get iteratives?

Keld Denar
2009-12-19, 08:18 PM
If you don't believe me, check out the MM. Find a monster with natural weapons that gets more than one attack with any given limb. There aren't any.

As for Totemists, they have a fair bit of bonus damage, which, spread across 5+ natural weapons, gives them a fair bit of boom.

EDIT:


The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.


Thems the rules...

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-19, 08:20 PM
What about 'Primary' natural weapons? Do I treat them as secondary if using a weapon?

Keld Denar
2009-12-19, 08:21 PM
Yes. If you are using a manufactured weapon, all natural attacks are then considered 2ndary.

Read here for more details. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-19, 08:45 PM
OK, sorted. thank you all very much.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 08:48 PM
Why dont they get iteratives?

Because... they don't?

I really have no idea why, they just don't. It's the thing with natural weapons - on a full attack you attack once - and only once - with all your natural weapons.

evil-frosty
2009-12-19, 08:49 PM
Hmm Just seems to make little sense to me. But thats the way it is.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 08:52 PM
It makes little sense that manufactured weapons get iterative attacks, to be honest. How do you swing a greatsword four times in six seconds with enough power to actually hurt someone?

AdamSmasher
2009-12-19, 09:48 PM
While simultaneously being able to claw ONLY once with each arm and not more? You can swing a greatsword once every 1.5 seconds, but each arm can move only once every six seconds if you're using your claws.

Even weirder? You can punch somebody five times with one hand if you're a monk... but can still only claw with that hand once.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 09:52 PM
Even weirder? You can punch somebody five times with one hand if you're a monk... but can still only claw with that hand once.

Well, no - if you're a monk you'll punch the guy with one fist, spin around and perform a spinning high kick, follow it with an elbow to the ribs while simultaneously punching him in the face, and finishing up with a left-footed kick to the nuts (while expending a Stunning Fist use).

Dixieboy
2009-12-19, 10:07 PM
It makes little sense that manufactured weapons get iterative attacks, to be honest. How do you swing a greatsword four times in six seconds with enough power to actually hurt someone?

If you can swing a greatsword around fast enough to hit someone four times, it's gonna hurt.

evil-frosty
2009-12-19, 10:14 PM
I think this is just a case of rules being stupid. Would it be horribly overpowered if you gave your primary natural attack iteratives?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 10:15 PM
Do you honestly want to roll ten attacks every time you throw a dragon at the party?

jmbrown
2009-12-19, 10:19 PM
I think this is just a case of rules being stupid. Would it be horribly overpowered if you gave your primary natural attack iteratives?

Yes. Natural attacks can carry special abilities. Do you really want iterative attacks that can poison, paralyze, or drain with each hit? Most creatures with natural attacks have A) multiple limbs and B) don't use weapons. When you get 4-6 attacks on a full attack having iterative attacks isn't necessary.

evil-frosty
2009-12-19, 10:24 PM
Didnt really think about that. My bad. My experience with natural attacks has been fairly limited.

Glimbur
2009-12-19, 10:29 PM
It used to be that natural attacks were for monsters and weapons were mostly for PC's. You want another attack from a dragon, as a designer? Say it's a wing buffet or a tail slap or some such silliness. This also means you get a lot of attacks at a similar attack bonus, which is easier to do math for.

Then PC's started getting natural attacks and it didn't make sense anymore but hasn't been fixed.

Stephen_E
2009-12-19, 10:31 PM
There is also another exception to the rule that natural attacks don't get interative attacks.

An Animal Companion with a single attack gets an interative attack at the point where she would normally get the Multiattack feat.


Stephen E

Myrmex
2009-12-19, 10:34 PM
How many attacks do I get if I have two claws, a bite, flurry of blows, two weapon fighting, and a BAB of 6?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 10:36 PM
Assuming you can wield weapons and make claw attacks somehow (I don't know how that would work), seven.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 11:23 PM
Assuming you can wield weapons and make claw attacks somehow (I don't know how that would work), seven.Improved Unarmed Strike. You claw with your hands and then hit them with your nose.

Thurbane
2009-12-19, 11:29 PM
Incorrect. Natural Attacks almost NEVER make iteratives, primary or secondary. The only way to get iteratives with natural attacks is to take the Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike feats from the Draconomicon.
The other exception is the Druid's animal companion:

Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.

Stephen_E
2009-12-19, 11:29 PM
How many attacks do I get if I have two claws, a bite, flurry of blows, two weapon fighting, and a BAB of 6?

1 Bite
2 Claws
0 2WFing because you specifically get an additional attack with your offhand weapon, which is a claw. So you have to choose between the Claw attack or the 2WFing attack.
2 Improved unarmed strike (u mention flurry of blows so I assume you include Improved Unarmed Strike).
+1 Flurry of Blows.

6 Attacks.

I you wanted to get really dodgy you could use 2WFing to attack with a weapon in your off-hand, drop it as a free action, and then attack with the Claw that was holding a weapon.

Don't be surprised if your GM doesn't accept it.


Stephen E

Myrmex
2009-12-19, 11:57 PM
1 Bite
2 Claws
0 2WFing because you specifically get an additional attack with your offhand weapon, which is a claw. So you have to choose between the Claw attack or the 2WFing attack.
2 Improved unarmed strike (u mention flurry of blows so I assume you include Improved Unarmed Strike).
+1 Flurry of Blows.

6 Attacks.

I you wanted to get really dodgy you could use 2WFing to attack with a weapon in your off-hand, drop it as a free action, and then attack with the Claw that was holding a weapon.

Don't be surprised if your GM doesn't accept it.


Stephen E

Monk lets you treat any part of your body as a weapon, so TWF gives you another unarmed strike, no?

Would the attack penalties be -4 unarmed strike/-4 unarmed strike/-4 unarmed strike/-4 unarmed strike/-9 bite/-9 claw/-9 claw? Could you reverse it, so you do the natural attacks as primary attacks?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 12:03 AM
Monk lets you treat any part of your body as a weapon, so TWF gives you another unarmed strike, no?RAW, you have 1 unarmed strike. You can TWF with it and a real weapon, but you can't dual-wield it.

RAI, Flurry of Blows seems to be a replacement for TWF, letting you attack faster at about the same progression as that feat chain.

Fluffwise, US allows you to hit an opponent with your feet, hands, elbows, knees, head, and bum if you feel like it. What'll you dual-wield with it?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-20, 12:21 AM
RAW, you have 1 unarmed strike. You can TWF with it and a real weapon, but you can't dual-wield it.
That's one way to read the rules. Looks like the "100% Official D&D" authors of Dragon read it differently.

The City Brawler Barbarian alternative class feature (Dragon # 349, page 92) forces the character to give up (at level 1)

Martial Weapon Proficiency,
Armor Proficiency (Medium), and
Shield Proficiency

to get

Improved Unarmed Strike and
Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed (at level 1),
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed (at level 6),
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed (at level 11)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 12:25 AM
That's one way to read the rules. Looks like the "100% Official D&D" authors of Dragon read it differently.

The City Brawler Barbarian alternative class feature (Dragon # 349, page 92) forces the character to give up (at level 1)

Martial Weapon Proficiency,
Armor Proficiency (Medium), and
Shield Proficiency

to get

Improved Unarmed Strike and
Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed (at level 1),
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed (at level 6),
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed (at level 11)
Yes, because D&D authors never screw up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135592)

The issue is, what is your second weapon? You're wielding the Unarmed Strike in one hand. Can you give me any indication that you get a second one anywhere?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-20, 12:27 AM
Yes, because D&D authors never screw up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135592)

The issue is, what is your second weapon? You're wielding the Unarmed Strike in one hand. Can you give me any indication that you get a second one anywhere?Uh...the other hand? Or knee? Or elbow? Or maybe you attack with your forehead.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 12:32 AM
Uh...the other hand? Or knee? Or elbow? Or maybe you attack with your forehead.
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. You attack with all parts of your body, and you specifically don't get an off-hand attack from any of them.

...In fact, an argument could be made that anyone other than a Monk can TWF while unarmed, on the basis that monks are the only ones that specifically have the ability denied to them. That would be cruel, unusual, and funny.

Gralamin
2009-12-20, 12:34 AM
You attack with all parts of your body, and you specifically don't get an off-hand attack from any of them.

...In fact, an argument could be made that anyone other than a Monk can TWF while unarmed, on the basis that monks are the only ones that specifically have the ability denied to them. That would be cruel, unusual, and funny.

And Completely fitting with the rest of 3.5's treatment of monks.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-20, 12:50 AM
Well, by the logic that unarmed strike is one weapon, you could use a manufactured weapon as your other weapon for TWF. I think this is perfectly reasonable, regardless, and one of the monk fixes up on these boards specifically mentions it can be done.

Dixieboy
2009-12-20, 12:52 AM
Yes, because D&D authors never screw up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135592)

The issue is, what is your second weapon? You're wielding the Unarmed Strike in one hand. Can you give me any indication that you get a second one anywhere?

You are obviously dual wielding your entire body.
Cloning FTW!

Gralamin
2009-12-20, 12:54 AM
You are obviously dual wielding your entire body.
Cloning FTW!

Well Unarmed Strikes have the same cost as Quarterstaves. So if you can craft infinite quarterstaves in no time, you can also craft Unarmed Strikes to wield.

Keld Denar
2009-12-20, 01:02 AM
There are a bunch of handsfree weapons in Complete Scoundrel that would keep your claws free to attack with.

Also, I think there is the Braid Blade in A&EG and the Mouth Pick in Lords of Madness are also non-hand weapons that would allow you to keep your natural attacks free.

You could conceivably get like, 10 or so natural attacks and then get at least 6 attacks from TWFing and a Hastey attack. Then you'd just need to find a form of bonus damage (like a Dragonfire Bard cohort) and you'd be tearing things up!

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-20, 01:13 AM
sneak attack FTW!!:smallbiggrin:

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-20, 01:27 AM
Get a graft, add a few more weapons, and play with multiweapon fighting instead :P

Ashiel
2009-12-20, 01:44 AM
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

I've always taken this to mean that the monk doesn't suffer the 1/2 strength penalty due to the attack being an off-hand attack. Thus a monk with 15 strength using unarmed strikes as part of a two-weapon routine would deal 1d6+2 on each hit, rather than 1d6+2 and 1d6+1, respectively.

From what I've seen elsewhere, this seems entirely valid, as another poster pointed out

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 06:05 AM
...Easy solution: boot blade.

There, an offhand weapon that doesn't require a hand. Oh sure, -2 on attack rolls with it, but your attack bonus with all these attacks is absurdly low anyway...

So that would be... +3 Unarmed Strike/+3 Unarmed Strike/+1 Boot Blade/-2 Unarmed Strike/-3 Claw/-3 Claw/-3 Bite. I think.

Now, buy your bard buddy lots of Inspire Courage boosts and make him take Dragonfire Inspiration...

Keld Denar
2009-12-20, 06:15 AM
Yuki Yuki Yuki...

Welcome to like, 3 posts ago...

:P

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 06:25 AM
Yuki Yuki Yuki...

Welcome to like, 3 posts ago...

:P

I live in a different time zone to you people, it's only natural for me to be three posts behind.

sofawall
2009-12-20, 07:29 AM
I live in a different time zone to you people, it's only natural for me to be three posts behind.

That makes less sense then the natural weapon rules.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 09:50 AM
I've always taken this to mean that the monk doesn't suffer the 1/2 strength penalty due to the attack being an off-hand attack. Thus a monk with 15 strength using unarmed strikes as part of a two-weapon routine would deal 1d6+2 on each hit, rather than 1d6+2 and 1d6+1, respectively.

From what I've seen elsewhere, this seems entirely valid, as another poster pointed outThat may be what's intended, but that's not what the rule says. You simply don't have an off hand attack, which means you can't TWF. It's like someone trying to TWF with a greatsword and nothing else, it just doesn't make sense.

jmbrown
2009-12-20, 11:34 AM
I've always taken this to mean that the monk doesn't suffer the 1/2 strength penalty due to the attack being an off-hand attack. Thus a monk with 15 strength using unarmed strikes as part of a two-weapon routine would deal 1d6+2 on each hit, rather than 1d6+2 and 1d6+1, respectively.

From what I've seen elsewhere, this seems entirely valid, as another poster pointed out

This is why monk's have flurry of blows. That's a monk's unarmed strike. It's a full-attack (something I usually houserule; monk's can flurry as a standard) but to them that's their equivalent of two-weapon fighting with their body.

Now if a monk was actually armed with a weapon in his off-hand like a dagger then he'd be able to make an off-hand attack with it as well.

Faleldir
2009-12-20, 12:02 PM
Flurry does not replace TWF, because it stacks with TWF.
Show me in the rules where it says that creatures have only one unarmed strike. It's not a physical object, it's the act of attacking without a weapon.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 12:04 PM
Flurry does not replace TWF, because it stacks with TWF.

It's the unarmed strike version of TWF.

Just like Rapid Shot is the ranged version of TWF.

All three stack. So what?

Faleldir
2009-12-20, 12:05 PM
So what happens when you Flurry with two nunchucks and nothing else? Flurry isn't limited to unarmed attacks, so the "using your entire body" argument is based on fluff.

Rapid Shot is not the ranged version of TWF. That extra attack is made with a weapon you've already used, only faster.

Coidzor
2009-12-20, 12:12 PM
It's the unarmed strike version of TWF.

Just like Rapid Shot is the ranged version of TWF.

All three stack. So what?

Wait... what lets you flurry of blows and rapid shot ranged unarmed strikes? :smallconfused:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 12:14 PM
Wait... what lets you flurry of blows and rapid shot ranged unarmed strikes? :smallconfused:

Shuriken in your off-hand and Quick Draw.

obtusehobbit
2009-12-20, 12:15 PM
As to if the monk can two-weapon fight with his unarmed strikes that issue is clarified in the 3.5 main FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).

The ruling basically states you can use your unarmed strike as as an off hand attack, and the rules in the SRD/PHB say they are treated as a weapon. So yes a Monk can fight with their Unarmed Strike as both their primary and off hand attack. You can even go so far as to combine that with flurry of blows.

Now the FAQ also has to say something about Unarmed Strikes and Natural attack, but the rules are a little more unclear. As they stated that they can be combined but only secondary natural attacks can be combined just like you were wielding a Longsword. The issue being that what is a Secondary Natural attack as a clarification in another section says that you can uses what would normally be considered a Primary Natural so long as the appendage is free, and as a Monks unarmed strikes are his entire body it is reasonable to say all his Appendages are free there for all his Natural attacks can be considered secondary.

Now as always run this by your DM as he may interpret it differently and he is the one to make the final call..

jmbrown
2009-12-20, 12:23 PM
So what happens when you Flurry with two nunchucks and nothing else? Flurry isn't limited to unarmed attacks, so the "using your entire body" argument is based on fluff.

Rapid Shot is not the ranged version of TWF. That extra attack is made with a weapon you've already used, only faster.

Then you flurry with two nunchuks followed by a secondary attack while still applying the penalties including flurry to all attacks.

Also


Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

You can attack with an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon and you can even "dual-wield" unarmed strikes. However, a monk's unarmed strike is not the same as a normal unarmed strike. Therefor, a monk can attack with his unarmed strike and then make an "unarmed strike" as an off-hand attack but he deals the normal 1d3+str for a medium creature not his monk class unarmed damage.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 12:24 PM
Then you flurry with two nunchuks. Flurry is an extraordinary ability, not an attack. You can only swing with an off-hand weapon as part of an attack.

Er...

Two-Weapon Fighting is an extraordinary ability, too. Most feats are. What does that have to do with anything?

Flurry of Blows allows you to make an extra attack during a full-attack. So does TWF. They stack if you qualify for both at once, such as by wielding two nunchaku.

Somehow. How the hell do you wield two nunchaku? They require two hands! What the hell, Wizards.

jmbrown
2009-12-20, 12:29 PM
Er...

Two-Weapon Fighting is an extraordinary ability, too. Most feats are. What does that have to do with anything?

Flurry of Blows allows you to make an extra attack during a full-attack. So does TWF. They stack if you qualify for both at once, such as by wielding two nunchaku.

Somehow. How the hell do you wield two nunchaku? They require two hands! What the hell, Wizards.

No, I was mistaken. Corrected above.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 12:31 PM
The correction isn't right either - the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature augments his unarmed strike weapons. Just as if he had an ability that made his sai deal more damage. Even if he uses it outside of flurry of blows, it still deals 1d6 or higher damage.

Coidzor
2009-12-20, 12:32 PM
You can attack with an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon and you can even "dual-wield" unarmed strikes. However, a monk's unarmed strike is not the same as a normal unarmed strike. Therefor, a monk can attack with his unarmed strike and then make an "unarmed strike" as an off-hand attack but he deals the normal 1d3+str for a medium creature not his monk class unarmed damage.

That seems needlessly complicated and specious. Since an unarmed strike is an unarmed strike, there's just the one type per character, if I can do monk damage with either hand/arm, then by dual-wielding both arms the unarmed strike isn't any different than it would otherwise be, I'm just taking penalties due to making sure to try to hit with both arms.

Faleldir
2009-12-20, 12:36 PM
My point is, when you fight with two special Monk weapons, you're not using a third weapon for the Flurry attack. Saying that Flurry represents using both hands doesn't make sense because it doesn't require another hand. A Monk can Flurry with just his pinky finger if he wants to.

And nunchaku are light weapons.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 12:37 PM
My point is, when you fight with two special Monk weapons, you're not using a third weapon for the Flurry attack. Saying that Flurry represents using both hands doesn't make sense because it doesn't require another hand. A Monk can Flurry with just his pinky finger if he wants to.

He can also flurry with his feet and hold two non-monk weapons in his hands, if he likes.

Faleldir
2009-12-20, 12:39 PM
So why are you using the "entire body" argument?

jmbrown
2009-12-20, 12:41 PM
That seems needlessly complicated and specious. Since an unarmed strike is an unarmed strike, there's just the one type per character, if I can do monk damage with either hand/arm, then by dual-wielding both arms the unarmed strike isn't any different than it would otherwise be, I'm just taking penalties due to making sure to try to hit with both arms.

Not really. Think of it like this.

-A monk's unarmed strike is a class feature. Monk's cannot make an off-hand attack with their strike as per the rules.

-Unarmed strike is a weapon and it's considered a light weapon. The equipment table says an unarmed strike deals fixed damage based on creature size. The section on two-weapon fighting say unarmed strikes can be used as off-hand attacks.

So, a monk can make an attack with their monk strike and with an off-hand "weapon" unarmed strike. They can't make an monk strike then attack with another monk strike.

Really, they should have renamed the monk's unarmed strike so it's more obviously a class feature.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 12:41 PM
...What?

I'm not using any "entire body" argument.

I'm of the "flurry and TWF stack" persuasion. Because there's nothing that says they don't. If a monk wants to make three unarmed strikes at a -4 penalty to hit each at level one, he's welcome to.

Faleldir
2009-12-20, 12:47 PM
Well you said "Flurry is the unarmed version of TWF". I took that to mean "Flurry represents using your entire body, therefore a Monk has no use for TWF". I'm sorry.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 12:51 PM
Flurry is the unarmed version of TWF in the afct that it gives you an extra attack at a -2 penalty.

I also compared it to Rapid Shot, if you recall.

jmbrown
2009-12-20, 12:56 PM
Well you said "Flurry is the unarmed version of TWF". I took that to mean "Flurry represents using your entire body, therefore a Monk has no use for TWF". I'm sorry.

I made the analogy. You can attack with an off-hand while flurrying but you're just stacking another penalty.

Flickerdart
2009-12-20, 01:59 PM
Well, there's that feat in SS that lets you rip off your fists and throw them at the enemy, provided you have regeneration. So you could TWF/Rapid Shot/Flurry with your fists.

Keld Denar
2009-12-20, 03:04 PM
Oh goody, this arguement again...

No character has an offhand unless you give him one. The line in the monk rule is superfluous. Its not the first time there's a superfluous rule in a rulebook.

Bob the Fighter is holding a Longsword in one hand, and a Light Flail in the other. Bob has a BAB of +6, allowing him to make 2 iterative attacks. Bob has the following options. He can attack with the Longsword twice, the Flail twice, or attack once with each. None of these attacks cause penalties to hit or diminished Str bonus to damage, because Bob hasn't used the TWF ability, he's just making his normal iteratives with multiple weapons. Bob has no offhand in this situation, even though he has a weapon in both hands, because he hasn't claimed any extra attacks by using the TWF option in the combat section of the PHB. This is similar to a Monk under normal circumstances. The Monk can attack with both hands, similar to Bob with his two weapons, and isn't considered to have an offhand. The rule in the Unarmed Strike section is superfluous, there to clarify that a Monk isn't considered to be TWF even if he attacks with both hands, or his feet, or his head, or whatever.

Now, Bob the Fighter wants to TWF. His options become: Make 2 attacks with his Longsword and 1 attack with his Light Flail. He could make 2 attacks with the Light Flail and 1 with the Longsword, but the penalties would be greater because the Longsword isn't a light weapon. Bob is TWFing, and the rules are very specific about the penalties that Bob takes for doing it. He takes penalities depending on what feats he has, and his offhand only receives half damage from his +Str. He is now TWFing, and thus has an offhand. Similarly, a Monk wants to TWF while Flurrying. With a +6 BAB, he would make his Flurry attacks at +3/+3/-2, which would all recieve full bonus from Str, and one attack at +3 that would recieve only half bonus from Str for a total of 4 attacks. Here, the Monk, like the Fighter, has an offhand attack, because we GAVE him one.

Under non-TWF circumstances, neither the Fighter or the Monk have an offhand, regardless of what their hands are doing, and that rule holds true. However, when you add combat options that contradict that rule, a monk, like a fighter, can make offhand attacks because the rules in TWF specifically give him one. To say otherwise is reading the rules in the most screwed up possible way that serves no purpose other than to hate on the already maligned Monk. RAW you could read it either way, why do people pick the least friendly way?

Stephen_E
2009-12-21, 09:49 AM
Somehow. How the hell do you wield two nunchaku? They require two hands! What the hell, Wizards.

Somewhere in another thread someone linked to a noce video with Bruce Lee weilding a nunchaku in each hand.


Stephen E

Stephen_E
2009-12-21, 10:08 AM
So, a monk can make an attack with their monk strike and with an off-hand "weapon" unarmed strike. They can't make an monk strike then attack with another monk strike.

Yes they can.



Really, they should have renamed the monk's unarmed strike so it's more obviously a class feature.

If you were right about how the Monk's unarmed strike worked, you would have a point.
Since you are wrong, that would probably explain why they didn't.

The Monk had the Improved Unarmed feat.

As a class feature when doing an improved unarmed attack they replace the normal damage amount with a special damage amount. This does not change that it is an unarmed attack.

As another class feature thay can "Flurry of Blows" with Improved Unarmed Attacks or specific monk weapons. This class feature gives them additional attacks but often includes a attack penalty.

Normal Unarmed attacks (whether by a Monk or anyone else) don't use a specific "hand" so are not considered to be "Off-hand" attacks.

2WF gives an additional attack that specifically use the off-hand, and all attacks made that round are affected as per the 2WF rules. It doesn't matter what types of attacks you are using for your off-hand attack (except for the purpose of calculating penalties as per 2WF rules) or what type of attacks you are using for the rest of your attacks.


Stephen E

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-21, 12:00 PM
Normal Unarmed attacks (whether by a Monk or anyone else) don't use a specific "hand" so are not considered to be "Off-hand" attacks.



This is incorrect. a monk is the only one who considers unarmed attacks as non off hand weapons... for the purposes of str to dmg.

Relevent SRD quotes and links



Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

...
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.




And




A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.




Edit: you know this line "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Thoreticaly isn't enchanting a weapon(with say +1) an effect?

Stephen_E
2009-12-21, 06:57 PM
This is incorrect. a monk is the only one who considers unarmed attacks as non off hand weapons... for the purposes of str to dmg.


Since I wasn't talking about damage modifiers due to using off-hand weapons, I reiterate that Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't talk about specific "hands" so don't involve using the "offhand". See the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.



Improved Unarmed Strike [General]
Benefit
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

Normal
Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.

Special
A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it.

A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Now if you decide you wish to get extra attacks using 2WF then you incur the 2 weapon fighting penalties for using the off-hand for the additional attacks you gets. For these a non-Monk can reasonably be argued that they get the reduced damage for those additional attacks. The Monk won't because the Monk rules specifically say they don't, but both would incur the attack penalties.

The specific rules of 2WF says that the penalty occurs, and the Monk has no specific reference to the attack panalties for 2WF to overide that.
This is also supported by the FAQs on the issue.



Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

•If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
•The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.



Stephen E

jmbrown
2009-12-21, 07:07 PM
After flipping through the books, a monk can make a secondary attack with TWF but because (as a monk class feature) he's never considered using his off-hand IE his unarmed strikes always use his full strength and he doesn't suffer the penalties from the off-hand column in table: two-weapon fighting penalties. This is such a rare topic as I've never seen a monk fight with two weapons or even apply an extra unarmed strike for TWF because of the obvious penalties.

A level 1 monk with 14 strength and two-weapon feat fighting unarmed could attack once at +2 dealing 1d6+2 damage, a flurry of blows at +0/+0, TWF +0/+0 for 1d6+2 for both strikes (because they're never considered using their off-hand), or TWF + flurry of blows for -2/-2/-2 1d6+2.

If he didn't have two-weapon fighting feat he'd make an attack at -2/-2 (a monk is never considered off-hand so he takes the -4 penalty for both attacks, not the -8) and -4/-4/-4 on a flurry of blows.


Edit: you know this line "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Thoreticaly isn't enchanting a weapon(with say +1) an effect?

You have to have a masterwork weapon and unarmed strike can't be masterwork because a weapon has to be crafted. You could, theoretically, replace your body parts with crafted prosthetic (iron foot? steel arm?) but I'm sure your DM will penalize you heavily for having fake, heavy appendages.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-21, 07:14 PM
I have a one word solution to that problem: Warforged:smallcool:

jmbrown
2009-12-21, 07:16 PM
I have a one word solution to that problem: Warforged:smallcool:

What does that have to do with anything?

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-21, 07:17 PM
For the enchanting unarm-... nevermind... you'd need a houserule for that.

EDIT: But Kensai solves the problem fairly well.