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SensFan
2009-12-19, 08:25 PM
I've seen dozens of posters talk about how amazing it is, that it can give flight, high Nat. Armor, swim, burrow, etc...

According to the srd, "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form."

How is it nearly as good as people say it is?

Flickerdart
2009-12-19, 08:27 PM
Same type means the same type of creature: Outsiders for Planetouched, Aberrations for Elan, Humanoids for Humans, Elves, etc. Loooooots of options.

jmbrown
2009-12-19, 08:28 PM
It's relatively subpar for humanoids but outsiders and fey get it good.

Dixieboy
2009-12-19, 08:29 PM
Are there any good humanoid forms? :smallconfused:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-19, 08:41 PM
Strongly consider searching. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alter+self+forms+D%26D)

You can get fly speed and stuff. But yeah, it's less useful for humanoids.

Eldan
2009-12-19, 08:43 PM
Well, there's aquatic elves, for waterbreathing, and Avariel should be humanoids as well. So you at least get that. There are also good defences.

Dixieboy
2009-12-19, 08:44 PM
Strongly consider searching. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alter+self+forms+D%26D)

You can get fly speed and stuff. But yeah, it's less useful for humanoids.
I have in fact went on a search or two.
I managed to find only negligible bonuses, which is why I asked.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 08:51 PM
There are humanoids out there with any movement speed you'd ever need.

It can grant you a flight speed if you turn into, say, a raptoran.

It's also one level lower than fly and lasts ten times longer.

(Okay granted to fly as a raptoran you need to be level five so you could just cast fly anyway, but there are other flying humanoids out there.)

Optimystik
2009-12-19, 08:51 PM
Strongly consider searching. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alter+self+forms+D%26D)

You can get fly speed and stuff. But yeah, it's less useful for humanoids.

Not everyone has strong Google-fu. :smallwink:

And the list wasn't complete (Raptorans aren't on it - another humanoid with flight)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-19, 08:54 PM
Ah. We seem to have different definitions of negligible. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-19, 08:56 PM
Warforged can become these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm).

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 08:57 PM
Warforged can become these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm).

That would be awesome for a psiforged. If only there was a psionic version of alter form.

(Oh sure you could make a psiforged spellcaster, but... why?)

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-19, 08:59 PM
That would be awesome for a psiforged. If only there was a psionic version of alter form.

(Oh sure you could make a psiforged spellcaster, but... why?)Oh, I don't know.

Maybe an artificer?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-19, 09:02 PM
(Oh sure you could make a psiforged spellcaster, but... why?)

Cerebremancer?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 09:02 PM
But artificers aren't spellcasters.

...For some reason. Exactly what are they, then? Infusions are magical, just like spells. And they have infusion slots, just like any spontaneous spellcaster. And their infusions have arcane spell failure and material components.

What the hell, Wizards.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-19, 09:04 PM
Humanoids can assume troglodyte form for some natural armor. There may be another form available for a little more AC, but that's about it.

Eldariel
2009-12-19, 09:45 PM
Trogdolyte is fine, Avariel (Races of Faerun) is a great flyer, Crucian from Miniatures Handbook actually has Trogdolyte beat on NA and...yeah. Stuff like that.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-19, 10:05 PM
But artificers aren't spellcasters.They can, however, access alter self by level 1.


...For some reason. Exactly what are they, then? Infusions are magical, just like spells. And they have infusion slots, just like any spontaneous spellcaster. And their infusions have arcane spell failure and material components.

What the hell, Wizards.I've been saying this for the last few years. Mostly accompanied with the sound of head-on-desk.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 11:27 PM
But artificers aren't spellcasters.

...For some reason. Exactly what are they, then? Infusions are magical, just like spells. And they have infusion slots, just like any spontaneous spellcaster. And their infusions have arcane spell failure and material components.

What the hell, Wizards.My current houserule list bans all tier 1 casters other than Artificers and Clerics for reasons of balance. Clerics are allowed because there are so few replacements, Artificers are banned for reason of insanity. Both in the class design and it's effect on those who have to play with it. If that's ever fixed, then I'll ban it for being unbalanced.

Dixieboy
2009-12-19, 11:31 PM
Have you considered favored soul?

I'unno if it's any better than cleric to be honest, but it's a spontanious caster. (Thus weaker)

Optimystik
2009-12-19, 11:34 PM
I like Shugenja myself. Less spells, but nice flavor and SAD.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-19, 11:39 PM
It's also useful for going undetected. I mean, nothing says "Im definitely not the human who killed that guy you love" like being an elf does.

Im not reccomending it as the *only* thing should do in said situation, but it does help.

Thurbane
2009-12-19, 11:46 PM
Alter Self can get you +6 to natural armor for 10 minutes/level (and that's just in core)...which stacks with Mage Armor (and Shield). Not exactly amazing, but definitely not useless either...

Optimystik
2009-12-20, 12:02 AM
That would be awesome for a psiforged. If only there was a psionic version of alter form.

That made me wonder - how WOULD a Psiforged interact with Metamorphosis anyway? It says they can't turn into a construct but that's paired with the secondary "any other type" clause, whereas the primary clause states "same type as your normal form." Could a psiforged or warforged egoist become an Astral Construct?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-20, 12:05 AM
That made me wonder - how WOULD a Psiforged interact with Metamorphosis anyway? It says they can't turn into a construct but that's paired with the secondary "any other type" clause, whereas the primary clause states "same type as your normal form." Could a psiforged or warforged egoist become an Astral Construct?They can turn into creatures of their type (ie constructs), but not something made from ectoplasm (eg astral constructs).

Optimystik
2009-12-20, 12:29 AM
They can turn into creatures of their type (ie constructs), but not something made from ectoplasm (eg astral constructs).

I see that now, but now I don't understand your earlier comment ("Warforged can become these.") Unless you were joking, in which case it went over my head.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-20, 12:37 AM
I see that now, but now I don't understand your earlier comment ("Warforged can become these.") Unless you were joking, in which case it went over my head.You can turn into ectoplasmic creatures with alter self. You can't with metamorphosis.

Optimystik
2009-12-20, 12:45 AM
Bah. Yet another case, I suppose, of Psions Can't Have Nice Things.™

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 12:47 AM
Bah. Yet another case, I suppose, of Psions Can't Have Nice Things.™Given that Psionics are usually considered far more balanced than arcane casting...yes. Yes it is.

Optimystik
2009-12-20, 01:03 AM
Given that Psionics are usually considered far more balanced than arcane casting...yes. Yes it is.

They're balanced solely because WotC hasn't paid attention to them long enough to break them.

StP Erudite was only the start, I assure you.

sofawall
2009-12-20, 01:47 AM
StP Erudite was only the start, I assure you.

And the end, as 3.5 is over,

Optimystik
2009-12-20, 02:22 AM
And the end, as 3.5 is over,

Support for psionics in 3.5 ended long before 3.5 itself did, sadly.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 05:56 AM
Support for psionics in 3.5 ended long before 3.5 itself did, sadly.

...No?

Almost every other book had psionic feats and powers in it near the end.

sofawall
2009-12-20, 05:58 AM
...No?

Almost every other book had psionic feats and powers in it near the end.

This fact is a true one, and I pleased by it.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 06:00 AM
There were a few later books with invocations, soulmelds and vestiges, for goodness sake. They were finally getting over their "introduce new mechanic in book, never release any more material for it" syndrome.

And now they're entirely over it, as 4e is so much more modular and easy to make new powers for.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-20, 07:56 AM
Clerics are allowed because there are so few replacements

:smallconfused:

Bard. Dragon Shaman. Psion. Anything that can use a Wand of Lesser Vigor.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:57 AM
Shugenja. Paladin. Ranger. Divine Mind. Ardent. Spirit Shaman. A healing belt.

A Rogue with UMD and a wand of lesser vigor.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 10:20 AM
HP damage is not the only thing that needs healing out there. Lack of the 'day after' spells is a big problem. If you don't have access to Remove Blindness/Deafness, and an opponent casts Cause B/D, you're in trouble.

Edit: New thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7539157#post7539157) created to avoid derailing this one.