What if Soon...

[Paseo H]

Instead of allowing Kraagor to die at the Snarl, what if he had allowed Lirian to die instead? How would the forum be reacting to this whole debacle?

And before anyone disputes it, remember even Soon's side of the story has him saying "just close it" even though Kraagor is clearly in the line of fire.

[BatRobin]

Instead of allowing Kraagor to die at the Snarl, what if he had allowed Lirian to die instead? How would the forum be reacting to this whole debacle?

And before anyone disputes it, remember even Soon's side of the story has him saying "just close it" even though Kraagor is clearly in the line of fire.

That's Shojo's POV. Not Soon's.

And I'd hate him to hell if he got Lirian killed/unmade/statue-ified/whatever happens there.

*waits for Soon pun*

[Turkish Delight]

Instead of allowing Kraagor to die at the Snarl, what if he had allowed Lirian to die instead? How would the forum be reacting to this whole debacle?

We know so very little about what actually happened. If the reasons for sealing the gate with Kraagor in range were valid and justifiable, however...like the Snarl being moments away from fully escaping or some other circumstance we don't know about...then it would apply no less just because Lirian is...

...what? A girl? An elf? Not ugly? Whatever it is here that's supposed to make killing her worse, it doesn't matter.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Lirian is a druid. And, from what I've heard of her, a ditz (I could easily use another four-letter word here)

I'd accuse Girard of sexism and internet-white-knighting, in addition to arrogance. Lirian's death would be tragic, but nothing worth angsting over too much.

[Asta Kask]

And before anyone disputes it, remember even Soon's side of the story has him saying "just close it" even though Kraagor is clearly in the line of fire.

Girard's POV seems to be that Soon pushed Kraagor into the rift while laughing maniacally and shouting "Take that, you anarchist monster!!!"

[The Rose Dragon]

Girard's POV seems to be that Soon pushed Kraagor into the rift while laughing maniacally and shouting "Take that, you anarchist monster!!!"

Girard's POV just doubled in awesome.

[Foryn Gilnith]

This makes Soon into a significantly different kind of badass.

[Dark Faun]

Girard's POV just doubled in awesome.
Double negative is still negative. :smalltongue:

If it was Lirian who died fighting the Snarl instead of the only original dwarf in the entire comic, Dorukan would have had a few choice words with Soon.

[CoffeeIncluded]

If it was Lirian who died fighting the Snarl instead of the only original dwarf in the entire comic, Dorukan would have had a few choice words with Soon.

And by "Choice words", you mean "Several Meteor Swarms to the skull"?

[Asta Kask]

If it was Lirian who died fighting the Snarl instead of the only original dwarf in the entire comic, Dorukan would have had a few choice words with Soon.

Well either that, or he would have discovered a hitherto unexplored side of his sexuality.

[The Rose Dragon]

Double negative positive aleph-thousand is still aleph-thousand. :smalltongue:

Fixed that for you.

[Paseo H]

I'm not sure what I'd think.

[Mando Knight]

Soon couldn't have given the command to seal the rift if Lirian was in the way... she's the only divine spellcaster they've got with the capability of casting the divine half of the sealing spell. Dorukon or Girard maybe, depending on whether or not Girard has high enough of a caster level to cast the arcane half of the spell.

[Harr]

Instead of allowing Kraagor to die at the Snarl, what if he had allowed Lirian to die instead? How would the forum be reacting to this whole debacle?


Your implied point is that if it had been a girl that was killed, everybody would be reacting completely different, just because it was a girl?

Eehhm, Idono, you could be right, but I doubt it. The forum's personality type in general is of logic-driven analyzers. I doubt it would really make a difference.

Or, it would make a difference at the very beginning, then after 9-10 pages of discussion and dissection of the issues involved, the "sentient life is either valuable or not period" arguments would set in, followed by the "what IS sentient life anyway?" ones, thereby completely dismissing any attention to the person's gender. Just look at any of the vegetarian threads :smallwink:

[ocdscale]

Instead of allowing Kraagor to die at the Snarl, what if he had allowed Lirian to die instead? How would the forum be reacting to this whole debacle?

What is the point of this thought exercise?
Has someone been defending Soon by arguing "Hey, it was just Kraagor." ?
If not, then the forum reaction would be pretty much the same.

[TheSummoner]

If Lirian had died than Serini would've constructed Lirian's gate in essentially the same fashion Lirian did it and Kraagor would've handled his own gate in essentially the same fashion that Serini did it for him. Girard would still be pissed at Soon and not a damn thing could've stopped Dorukan from fighting Soon to the death... Girard probably wouldnt've backed down either if only because the fight was unavoidable.

[Paseo H]

What is the point of this thought exercise?
Has someone been defending Soon by arguing "Hey, it was just Kraagor." ?
If not, then the forum reaction would be pretty much the same.

Not consciously.

But let's face it, the elf chick is an elf chick, and the dwarf is a short, hairy, violent guy.

[Fenlun]

If Lirian died from the Snarl, then would Xykon not have trapped her soul in the gem (or whatever that whole scenario was).

If so, then would Durokan stay inside his dungeon indefinately?

[ocdscale]

Not consciously.

But let's face it, the elf chick is an elf chick, and the dwarf is a short, hairy, violent guy.

I see where you're coming from, but I think you're totally off base here.
It's easy to imagine a scenario where the sex/attractiveness of a character can affect forum reactions to storyline. Best example I can think of at the moment, duh, the Na'vi in Avatar. Would the movie be marketable if they looked like deep ones? I really doubt it.*

But for something like this? I don't think sex, attractiveness, race, class, or anything even come to play.

It would be like if I were reading Watchmen on the street and someone asked me my opinion of Ozymandias. Suppose I give my opinion, but then the guy asks me: "Okay, but what if he were an attractive girl?"
I can't imagine anyone changing their mind, because I don't think attractiveness plays a major role in this type of analysis at all (even if it might in the Avatar case).

Similarly, I don't imagine this comes into play when someone asks themselves "How do I feel about Soon ordering the closing of the rift?"

*Okay, I'd probably still watch it because of the purported huge technological advance in film making, but I'm pretty sure the movie would tank without an 'attractive victim'. (or at the very least, an 'aesthetically likeable victim')

[Holy_Knight]

And before anyone disputes it, remember even Soon's side of the story has him saying "just close it" even though Kraagor is clearly in the line of fire.

Even though both of them were clearly in the line of fire. Kraagor and Soon, who risked himself as well.

[Dienekes]

I'm confused why it would make a difference.

[DBJack]

Wellllll, since Lirian is the one that developed the important part of the Epic Gate Creation spell (with Dorukon doing the rest of the work) and no one else was capable of researching the spell, the rifts would have kept growing until World 2.0 was consumed again

[Belkster11]

I gree with DBJack. Soon would have been a colossal idiot if he tried pushing Lirian in.

And why would he? He's a Paladin and somehow, I don't think pushing people into rifts is his style.

[Asta Kask]

It seems Girard begs to differ.

[Belkster11]

It seems Girard begs to differ.

True, true, but I'm in the bandwagon of "Wait and collect evidence before pointing out the perp."

Soon did have a hand in Kraagor's death, but I think even he wouldn't shove the poor dwarf into the rift going: "OK, sacrifice yourself now thxbai."

[Asta Kask]

True, true, but I'm in the bandwagon of "Wait and collect evidence before pointing out the perp."

Well, it's certainly a new approach for the Internet...

[Paseo H]

I'm confused why it would make a difference.

It's simple.

What Measure Is A Non Cute?

[Omergideon]

To me it makes no difference at all, if we somehow assume that they had an alternate divine spellcaster available to seal the rifts and create the gate. If they didn't have one then Soon is the biggest idiot to ever walk the earth.

Now the story would be radically different but my opinion of Soon wouldn't change. To me cute/not cute makes no difference unless I want to date them.

[Setra]

It's simple.

What Measure Is A Non Cute?
The problem being that they're both stick figures, even the dwarven ones are cute.

[Ehra]

If attractiveness mattered that much then there wouldn't be so many Miko haters.

If you're trying to make it look like people who like Soon only do so because Kraagor was ugly and not because he was a good person (from what we've seen) then you're doing a poor job of it.

[King of Nowhere]

We know so very little about what actually happened. If the reasons for sealing the gate with Kraagor in range were valid and justifiable, however...like the Snarl being moments away from fully escaping or some other circumstance we don't know about...then it would apply no less just because Lirian is...

...what? A girl? An elf? Not ugly? Whatever it is here that's supposed to make killing her worse, it doesn't matter.

Exactly. I see no reason, except sexist reasons, for Lirian's death to be more important than Kraagor's death, and I'm pretty sure Lirian would have willingly given her life if it was necessary to seal a gate

[Shale]

What I wonder is what would have happened if Serini died. Would anyone else have been calm enough to work out a solution before stabbings started?

[TheSummoner]

Now thats a good question...

On the plus side, had it been Serini, no one would've recorded the locations of the gates, so the person or people to survive the battle would've had a much easier time with the defending...

[veti]

It would be like if I were reading Watchmen on the street and someone asked me my opinion of Ozymandias. Suppose I give my opinion, but then the guy asks me: "Okay, but what if he were an attractive girl?"
I can't imagine anyone changing their mind, because I don't think attractiveness plays a major role in this type of analysis at all (even if it might in the Avatar case).

Interesting thought experiment: try substituting "Rorschach" for "Ozymandias" in that scenario. Do you get the same answer?

Manipulative billionaire supergenius who's good-looking either way? Sure, gender doesn't really matter. Angry unemployed loser psycho? - I think there might be a difference, there, between an ugly guy and a hot chick.

[Penquin47]

According to Serini's diary in SoD...

Kraagor was a "mean grrl". So, no sexism, just attractivenessism.

[Porthos]

According to Serini's diary in SoD...

Kraagor was a "mean grrl". So, no sexism, just attractivenessism.

Huh?

No, it's "mean! grr!" not "mean grrl" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) :smallsmile:

EDIT::: I admit it's a little hard to tell with the resolution of the online strips, but I just checked with my copy of NCftPB, and it is indeed a "!" not a "l" at the end.

So, no shout-out to Valley Speak here, I'm afraid. More's the pity, actually, in this Californian's opinion.