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Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 10:22 AM
Since I'm going to be DMing for the first time soon, I thought I'd get advice on my attempts to curtail the worst of 3.5.
All characters: All WotC 3.5 books allowed
Level 5(most likely, still trying to decide on a module)
Stats are 4d6b3 roll 7 and take best or 32 pt buy
HP is either rolled or average, whichever you prefer, max at 1st level.
Everyone gets Able Learner free.
Multiclass XP penalties can go die in a fire.
Fractional BAB/Saves if you want it(good saves progress at level/2, poor ones at level/3, good progression only adds the +2 once).
You level up when I feel it appropriate, not by XP.
If you want to craft items(you poor, poor, fool), you get a craft reserve equal to half that of an Artificer of your level, but cannot use XP for the purpose.
3rd party, Dragon, and Homebrew are allowed with approval only. I like them a lot of the time, but they require triple-checking.
All classes get an additional 2 skillpoints per level.
Feats at 1st level and every even level after
Ask about LA. It may be adjusted downwards.
ToB and Complete Scoundrel are allowed(specifically called out since the previous DM banned them).
Skill focus either makes a skill a class skill for you and gives a +3 bonus.
Casters: Wizards are banned.
Savant, summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95336), and rearranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99314) are allowed.
Druids have partial spellcasting(ranger progression) and AC at level-3.
Spirit Shamen are unchanged.
Archivists and Artificers are banned. Anyone who mentions Spell-to-Power will be smacked by the CPsi.
Psionics and MoI are banned until I get a better handle on the rules.
All [Calling] effects are banned until I houserule them to something simple, balanced, and SANE.
Any metamagic reducer requires talking with me first. This includes Rods, DMM, and similar.
Cloistered Cleric is encouraged.
Contingency, Celerity, Streamers, Fabricate, the Creation line, Venomfire, and all spells from those lines are banned.
Martial characters:Rangers have full-progression AC.
Iron Heart Surge is gong to be ruled as I feel like, not as the RAW reads. Because the RAW is stupid.
ToB is allowed. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

arguskos
2009-12-20, 10:24 AM
Only thing I see and somewhat question is: Stats are 5d6b3 or 32 pt buy.

I ran some high-powered games, and I didn't do 5d6b3. You sure that's going to be necessary?

Beyond that, looks good. :smallamused: You and S got everything hammered out then?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 10:34 AM
Only thing I see and somewhat question is: Stats are 5d6b3 or 32 pt buy.

I ran some high-powered games, and I didn't do 5d6b3. You sure that's going to be necessary?

Beyond that, looks good. :smallamused: You and S got everything hammered out then?You did 4d6b3 reroll ones, roll 3 sets and take the best. The average should be close to the same, but this seems easier to me...I could swap to 4d6b3x7, keep the top 6.

Zincorium
2009-12-20, 10:36 AM
I see a need to advise the PCs on feats to take, given they'll exhaust the ones they qualify for faster.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 10:44 AM
I see a need to advise the PCs on feats to take, given they'll exhaust the ones they qualify for faster.That rule's standard for our group, and people would much rather have it and run out of feats than not have it and run out of feat slots.

Forgot one rule: Skill focus either makes a skill a class skill for you or gives a +3 bonus.

arguskos
2009-12-20, 10:45 AM
I see a need to advise the PCs on feats to take, given they'll exhaust the ones they qualify for faster.
The group in question is pretty good about hunting down feats/info they need for their characters. I allowed most everything, sans ToB and C. Scon (I have my reasons for the first and don't know the second well enough), so they're used to getting feats. :smallamused:

@Sstoopid: Yeah, that's true. Perhaps x7 best 6 would make more sense? Really depends on how you're going to be running it.

EDIT: Why not make Skill Focus do both? It's hardly unbalancing. Also, are you changing the +2 save feats to what the Rebalanced sets them at (with the rerolls)?

Tavar
2009-12-20, 10:50 AM
Looks good, and I agree with your rules on MoI and Psionics: never a good idea to allow something that you don't understand.

That being said, Psionics is really easy to learn, and is well balanced, barring some things imported directly from arcane(polymorph under a different name is still broken), and the CPsi(though the soulbow and ardent are actually pretty neat).

Incarnum is a bit trickier, and really requires you to read the first 3-4 chapters a couple times, though I've found that since doing that, it's probably the most intuitive system made by Wizards.

Morty
2009-12-20, 10:55 AM
Those don't look bad, though I'd rather keep wizards and remove or change the troublesome spells. It's harder to do though, so I understand your decision.
I'm not sure about the feats at every even level either.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 10:57 AM
I don't think I'll swap for the save-booster feats right now. Maybe later, but I'm trying to keep this simple.

And I know mostly how Psionics works, the problem is I don't know what it can do. I'm not familiar enough with the power effects to know what to expect out of a Psion each round the way I can with a Beguiler or similar. I'll probably allow them in a later game, but not immediately.

Edit: The problem with removing the troublesome spells is that there are so many, and a Wizard gets all of them. I'd prefer to keep this document under 3 gigs.

arguskos
2009-12-20, 11:01 AM
I don't think I'll swap for the save-booster feats right now. Maybe later, but I'm trying to keep this simple.

And I know mostly how Psionics works, the problem is I don't know what it can do. I'm not familiar enough with the power effects to know what to expect out of a Psion each round the way I can with a Beguiler or similar. I'll probably allow them in a later game, but not immediately.
Eh, you're probably gonna confuse some folks (K in specific) with that one. Have fun. :smalltongue:

As for Psionics, I kinda agree. I'm decently skilled with the system, so I didn't mind when a player wished to use it (though few folks really did). Honestly, I tended to forget the system existed. :smalleek: It just never came up.

Incarnum... is fun, but takes a large amount of practice to get down. That's something that's best to learn by playing an Incarnate for awhile and working out the kinks that way.

Fitz10019
2009-12-20, 11:43 AM
One thing I find is when you combine point buy with the +1 to any stat every 4th level, you have a system where it feels dumb not to put that free +1 onto your highest stat, so you get the most value for it. I plan to experiment with this houserule: "Every 4th level, you get +3 more pointbuy points, to spend immediately or to bank for the next time. [18=>19 costs 4, 19=>20 costs 4, 20=>21 costs 5, 21=>22 costs 5, etc.]"

This may be helpful when you hand out feats every even level, because a person can qualify for more feats after they spend these points on their mid-level stats (like boosting Int to qualify for the Combat Expertise and it's children), without feeling like they are 'wasting' the value of the stat boost. Every character remains point-buy equals (except the bankers, but they will catch up).

I also think your feat every even level should apply to the monsters, too (and my pointbuy rule). That way you can surprise even seasoned players by giving creatures feats they would not normally have, without adding class levels.

Surgo
2009-12-20, 11:45 AM
You don't even have to worry about [calling] effects until level 11 and your guys are level 5, why the rule?

tyckspoon
2009-12-20, 11:49 AM
You don't even have to worry about [calling] effects until level 11 and your guys are level 5, why the rule?

By level 5 characters will be well on their way to completing requirements for any PrCs they plan to enter. Having it in the houserules doc ensures nobody is unpleasantly surprised later on if they were planning to go for something like Fiendbinder, Thaumaturgist, or Malconvoker.

Tavar
2009-12-20, 11:49 AM
You don't even have to worry about [calling] effects until level 11 and your guys are level 5, why the rule?

Because the game could get up to level 11? Or, you could hire a caster to cast the spell? Plus, if you're making certain PrC's useless, it's a good idea to tell people so they don't waste feats.

Gamerlord
2009-12-20, 11:53 AM
Only one houserule in my group:

Mage armor is abjuration.

Not much of a houserule.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 12:02 PM
Only one houserule in my group:

Mage armor is abjuration.

Not much of a houserule.I've considered it, but if I start swapping schools, it'll end with a 3-page list of where every spell falls, 4 schools(none of which exist currently), and overly complicated dual-school rules.

And yes, I'm banning stuff early. I plan on taking this group to ~11, and Lesser Planar Binding comes into effect at 9. I'd like to make sure that no one is startled later.

@Fitz: The feats will go to everything, including monsters. I do plan to change whatever feats I feel like, especially on named monsters. The pt-buy is a bit of an excessive change IMHO. Especially since a couple of my players love spellcasters with maxed casting stats.

Coidzor
2009-12-20, 12:10 PM
Hmm, have you considered allowing a variant of your druid which gives Mystic Ranger casting progression in exchange for the AC altogether? Or just doing it that way.

Since druids that don't get any spells until 5th level seem like they're not really casters anymore and just shapeshifters.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 12:20 PM
Hmm, have you considered allowing a variant of your druid which gives Mystic Ranger casting progression in exchange for the AC altogether? Or just doing it that way.

Since druids that don't get any spells until 5th level seem like they're not really casters anymore and just shapeshifters.Precisely. That's why I specifically included the Spirit Shaman. If you want to play a pries of nature, run that. If you want a Shapeshifter, run Druid. If you want a beastmaster, go Ranger.

Coidzor
2009-12-20, 12:26 PM
Precisely. That's why I specifically included the Spirit Shaman. If you want to play a pries of nature, run that. If you want a Shapeshifter, run Druid. If you want a beastmaster, go Ranger.

Ah, couldn't quite recall if the Spirit Shaman was that one or not, sorry.

Fitz10019
2009-12-20, 12:36 PM
And yes, I'm banning stuff early. I plan on taking this group to ~11...

Banning early is smart -- the players need to know. The players should also know that the campaign ends ~11, for the same reason, unless there's a DM rotation then, continuing with the same characters.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-20, 05:36 PM
If you're banning stuff, I'd add Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606). Increasing power with each subsequent feat just sticks out its tongue and gives a cold, squirmy lick up the back of the neck to anybody who needs Two-Weapon Fighting. :tongue:

Lifeson
2009-12-20, 05:43 PM
From the QAGS comes the "Yum-Yums" rule that I use.

Basically, you get a candy (Most likely your favourite.), and you reward players for doing clever or great things beyond rolling a 20 or gaining a level. You can use these "Yum-Yums" on anything from taking 10/20 in a battle on any roll, to passing a skill check, to an extra five hp when they hit 0. Oh, and if they get hungry, they can eat them too. :smallcool:

Everybody wins! Unless they never earn their Yum-yums. Then they're just shoddy at RP'ing.

Haven
2009-12-20, 05:49 PM
I think this is pretty much how I'd run a game if I were to run one (well, except for the part where Psionics are exiled, but I understand that about as well as I understand anything in 3.5).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-20, 11:20 PM
From the QAGS comes the "Yum-Yums" rule that I use.

Basically, you get a candy (Most likely your favourite.), and you reward players for doing clever or great things beyond rolling a 20 or gaining a level. You can use these "Yum-Yums" on anything from taking 10/20 in a battle on any roll, to passing a skill check, to an extra five hp when they hit 0. Oh, and if they get hungry, they can eat them too. :smallcool:

Everybody wins! Unless they never earn their Yum-yums. Then they're just shoddy at RP'ing.Hmmm. I am basically the primary source of food already, so this could work. Also, QAGS?

I'm leaving in FoI, simply out of hopes that one of them will make a skillmonkey.

Also, does anyone have any advice on 5th level modules? I want to run a short one before hitting the main campaign, basically so I can learn the ropes.

erikun
2009-12-20, 11:45 PM
Druids have partial spellcasting(ranger progression) and AC at level-3.
What level are you starting at? Because until level 5, this druid can't really do much of anything.


Anyone who mentions Spell-to-Power will be smacked by the CPsi.
Good ruling. :smallbiggrin:


Psionics and MoI are banned until I get a better handle on the rules.
If you have a question about Psionics, feel free to ask. This thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered) is a good response to common misunderstandings of Psionics. My best suggestion is to use only 3.5e Psionics material, and avoid 3.0e Psionics like the plague.


All [Calling] effects are banned until I houserule them to something simple, balanced, and SANE.
Called creatures cannot (or do not have to) use Spell-Like Abilities which would require an XP cost as a spell? Although this really is a problem with Summoning spells, too. That may not resolve all the problems, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-21, 12:43 AM
What level are you starting at? Because until level 5, this druid can't really do much of anything.

If you have a question about Psionics, feel free to ask. This thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered) is a good response to common misunderstandings of Psionics. My best suggestion is to use only 3.5e Psionics material, and avoid 3.0e Psionics like the plague.

Called creatures cannot (or do not have to) use Spell-Like Abilities which would require an XP cost as a spell? Although this really is a problem with Summoning spells, too. That may not resolve all the problems, though.We start at 5, and I plan to avoid games lower than that like the plague. I feel you should be able to run the party into more than one Orc at a time and not risk a TPK.

Again, the problem with Psionics is that I can gauge how much of his power a caster has used, and I can tell what he can do just by knowing what class he's playing. I don't know psionics well enough to do that yet, and I don't want to try to learn my first time DMing. I know they aren't broken, and I prefer most of the rules to the Vancian system. It'll be allowed in a later game, just not now.

The problem with the Planar Binding spells is that for the cost of a single day's effort, you gain a monster with as much power as you have, basically your slave for as long as you feel like. Doubling your power for a single spell is insane, especially if you can repeat it. Planar Ally and other Calling effects are better, but still broken. I can't think of a way to make the spell useful, balanced, and retain the flavor of contracting an outsider for power.

Origomar
2009-12-21, 12:51 AM
One thing I find is when you combine point buy with the +1 to any stat every 4th level, you have a system where it feels dumb not to put that free +1 onto your highest stat, so you get the most value for it. I plan to experiment with this houserule: "Every 4th level, you get +3 more pointbuy points, to spend immediately or to bank for the next time. [18=>19 costs 4, 19=>20 costs 4, 20=>21 costs 5, 21=>22 costs 5, etc.]"

This may be helpful when you hand out feats every even level, because a person can qualify for more feats after they spend these points on their mid-level stats (like boosting Int to qualify for the Combat Expertise and it's children), without feeling like they are 'wasting' the value of the stat boost. Every character remains point-buy equals (except the bankers, but they will catch up).

I also think your feat every even level should apply to the monsters, too (and my pointbuy rule). That way you can surprise even seasoned players by giving creatures feats they would not normally have, without adding class levels.

That system would be really helpful to MAD classes, so they could get more than one stat up to above average easier.

sonofzeal
2009-12-21, 12:52 AM
Again, the problem with Psionics is that I can gauge how much of his power a caster has used, and I can tell what he can do just by knowing what class he's playing. I don't know psionics well enough to do that yet, and I don't want to try to learn my first time DMing. I know they aren't broken, and I prefer most of the rules to the Vancian system. It'll be allowed in a later game, just not now.
Actually, it's really easy to gauge how much power he has left.

"Yo, Bob, what's your PP looking like"
"Eh, I've only used 17 out of 53 so far today."
"Cool. Alright, so you open the door, and there's this....."

(The other way is to note it down as he uses it, like how you might note down hp damage. I just ask though)


As to what he can do, ask to see his Powers Known list, that's the easiest way.

Myrmex
2009-12-21, 05:19 AM
I would consider expanding combat actions, giving players the choice to trade off one stat for another, such as losing ac to hit better, or losing attack for more damage. These things should be freely traded, and not require you to spend precious feats on. That way, the players can get cool feats like Darkstalker or whatever instead of power attack-bullrush-shocktrooper.

I would also give everyone the weapon finesse feat for free.

Fitz10019
2009-12-21, 11:04 AM
Second to weapon finesse for free, adding PBS for free.

Also, if the wizard can learn an entire language for 2 out of 10 of his skill points, the fighter should be able to do the same for exotic weapon training -- except it's 2 of his 2 skill points.

Oslecamo
2009-12-21, 11:21 AM
The problem with the Planar Binding spells is that for the cost of a single day's effort, you gain a monster with as much power as you have, basically your slave for as long as you feel like. Doubling your power for a single spell is insane, especially if you can repeat it. Planar Ally and other Calling effects are better, but still broken. I can't think of a way to make the spell useful, balanced, and retain the flavor of contracting an outsider for power.

Simple. Allow it only to call creatures the characters have actualy seen. Once called, creatures will rather die (and return to their planes, yay outsiders!) than acept unfair treatment. Then any kind of extra mind control they try to use on the monster makes it go bersek. It's really funny the concept of "friendly" nonhumanoids have. "Oh, sorry, did I just burned you to death? That's our usual way of saying "as you wish", since we live on a place where everything is immune to fire and stuff.":smalltongue:

If you want instant docile minions, there's always summon X.

Also, why did you allow casters to get items for half the cost? And what do you do about spells/effects wich cost exp?

I must point out that you said that ToB is allowed 3 times total.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-21, 03:36 PM
Simple. Allow it only to call creatures the characters have actualy seen. Once called, creatures will rather die (and return to their planes, yay outsiders!) than acept unfair treatment. Then any kind of extra mind control they try to use on the monster makes it go bersek. It's really funny the concept of "friendly" nonhumanoids have. "Oh, sorry, did I just burned you to death? That's our usual way of saying "as you wish", since we live on a place where everything is immune to fire and stuff.":smalltongue:That strikes me as exploitive. I'd rather just ban it than punish the player for casting it. Even just grabbing a hostile monster, in a world of Charm and Dominate, is broken when you consider that the caster will be prepared for the encounter and the monster won't.

Also, why did you allow casters to get items for half the cost? And what do you do about spells/effects wich cost exp?The exact amount is up for debate. I thought I had that that can be used for spell XP as well, too. The issue is that since I'm not doing normal XP, I need a way of adjudicating item craft and spells with XP costs. I thought that was a simple fix.


I must point out that you said that ToB is allowed 3 times total.Yes. Yes I did.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-21, 03:45 PM
I must point out that you said that ToB is allowed 3 times total.

You are right to point that out. 3 is nowhere near enough. 5 or 6 is pushing it.

erikun
2009-12-21, 04:07 PM
I don't know psionics well enough to do that yet, and I don't want to try to learn my first time DMing.
I wasn't sure if you were looking at learning it for your game, or just wanted to avoid it this time. There's certainly no problem in not using an option in your game, as it sounds like you are already offering plenty of options.


The problem with the Planar Binding spells is that for the cost of a single day's effort, you gain a monster with as much power as you have, basically your slave for as long as you feel like. Doubling your power for a single spell is insane, especially if you can repeat it.
Just to point out, that's a 6 HD ally at 9th level - not much of a boost, and certainly not "doubling". It's also for one specific service, not a slave to command as you wish. There are certainly times where it's unbalancing, such as riding around all day on an ethereal nightmare, but they aren't impressive in combat.

Also note that a called outsider who dies stays dead, so a contract requesting combat of any form could certainly be considered "unreasonable". Especially considering the CR 9+ challanges the wizard's party will be facing.


Once called, creatures will rather die (and return to their planes, yay outsiders!) than acept unfair treatment.
As mentioned above, summoned outsiders that die are returned to their home plane. Called outsiders that die stay dead.

Oslecamo
2009-12-22, 09:09 AM
As mentioned above, summoned outsiders that die are returned to their home plane. Called outsiders that die stay dead.

It doesn't work that way. It's stated in the planar splatbooks and fiendish codexes that outsiders who die outside of their main plane "dissolve" and their essence returns to their native plane, forming a new weaker body, but still living. That's why you cannot ressurect them with normal magic.

It also means technically you can't necro outsiders, because their bodies are suposed to disappear when they die, save some rare exceptions (again, fiendish codex).

Summoned dudes instantly reform at full power, but called killed dudes return in an inferior form. They can however regain their older stronger form by performing the right deeds.

The biggest fear of an outsider is to be killed in his own plane: then he completely dissolves into it and becomes part of the plane itself.


Sstoopidtallkid:it's the world of D&D. If you aren't prepared for ambushes around every corner, you've gone extinct a long time ago. Just think of the Abyss and the 9 hells. Drop your guard for a second and everyone will try to feast in your blood. Going for a walk around your home may easily be as dangerous than charging into Celestia's fortresses.