Soulknife rantings

[Obahai]

One of my favorite classes to play is the Soulknife. There are lots of fun feats and it has great fluff and flavor behind it. But my biggest issue with the Soulknife, is most dm's will not allow them because they are psionic and therefore broken.

My rationale is that psionic powers require a power pool to activate powers and such. A Soulknife only has 2 pp (not including any from a psionic race) and that is from the wild talent feat.

[Ecalsneerg]

One of my favorite classes to play is the Soulknife. There are lots of fun feats and it has great fluff and flavor behind it. But my biggest issue with the Soulknife, is most dm's will not allow them because they are psionic and therefore broken.

Soulknives are broken, yes. But not broken like spellcasters, broken like the china in the shop the bull got into.

[industrious]

Soulknife is broken. Brokenly bad. Seriously, it can be beaten by a fighter of the same level.

[Melamoto]

One of my favorite classes to play is the Soulknife. There are lots of fun feats and it has great fluff and flavor behind it. But my biggest issue with the Soulknife, is most dm's will not allow them because they are psionic and therefore broken.
most dm's will not allow them because they are psionic and therefore broken.
Soulknife
broken

Whatever DM this is, make sure they're reading the class right.

[Flickerdart]

Soulknife, Samurai, Truenamer and Monk are all broken in roughly the same way, that is to say the exact opposite way that Wizards, Druids, Clerics and Archivists are broken.

[Tavar]

Plus, Psionics has nothing on regular magic. Are you sure that the DM's have read the rules?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Here's the Soulknife problem that my friend and I ran into while trying for a revision:

The Soulknife isn't a class. It's 20 levels of having a magic sword.

There's nothing to it but that. No concept or flavor to build around, no other features to emphasize. That's mainly why it fails as a class...for 200,000gp, I can buy a better item than your entire class feature.

[Yuki Akuma]

I really think the "most DMs don't allow psionics because they think it's broken" thing is a myth by now.

[The Glyphstone]

I've run into more players who say they won't use psionic characters because they're broken at this point.

[Sinfire Titan]

Here's the Soulknife problem that my friend and I ran into while trying for a revision:

The Soulknife isn't a class. It's 20 levels of having a magic sword.

There's nothing to it but that. No concept or flavor to build around, no other features to emphasize. That's mainly why it fails as a class...for 200,000gp, I can buy a better item than your entire class feature.

Hence why the PsiWar ACF in the Mind's Eye article does it better. Personally, I'm trying to turn the class feature into a Stance for a Martial Adept remake of the PsiWar (like what they did to the Pally with the Crusader).

[Asbestos]

I really think the "most DMs don't allow psionics because they think it's broken" thing is a myth by now.

Yeah, but some still adhere to it.

The Soulknife really is just plain pathetic. The only class feature is getting a magic sword for free, that's it. The Fighter is going to get that anyway and he's going to get a full BAB and a ton more bonus feats. I guess the Soulknife does have 'psychic strike', but it doesn't work with Full Attacks and requires a move action to use so... fail.

Btw, I made a better Soulknife by giving its mighty features to a class that could use them.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135618

[Mongoose87]

Is it just me, or are Soulknife threads becoming the daily version of Monk threads?

[Asbestos]

Is it just me, or are Soulknife threads becoming the daily version of Monk threads?
Its just how these things work. Someone puts up a thread on Subject X, everyone else starts to think about Subject X, people post new threads about Subject X because they've been thinking about it.

[Myrmex]

Plus, Psionics has nothing on regular magic. Are you sure that the DM's have read the rules?

Without metamagic reducers, a level 10 psion or wilder can put out more damage than a level 10 wizard. If all you're used to is a wizard blasting stuff, and then a manifester starts blasting better, it will appear that the manifester is too powerful.

If you throw in arcane thesis abuse, then yeah, psions ain't got nothing on a wizard.

[urkthegurk]

Yeah, Psionics aren't broken, the fluff is just annoying. They try to be broken, but they just aren't as versatile. Soulknives are possibly the least broken psionic class.

The way I handle monks being sadly weak is by giving them martial arts trees basically for free. Assume the given class is the framework, and add a bunch of things on. One of the monks in my game has access to a handful of abjuration and illusion spells. I'd suggest doing something similar with the soulknife, possibly granting access to some fighter bonus feats. The concept of a soulknife is perfectly fine, they just messed up the progression curve and only gave them one thing they can do. If all you know is how to make a blade out of mental energy, its no good because you can't effectively use it.

Sweet! A blade!

[Myrmex]

Yeah, Psionics aren't broken, the fluff is just annoying. They try to be broken, but they just aren't as versatile. Soulknives are possibly the least broken psionic class.

The way I handle monks being sadly weak is by giving them martial arts trees basically for free. Assume the given class is the framework, and add a bunch of things on. One of the monks in my game has access to a handful of abjuration and illusion spells. I'd suggest doing something similar with the soulknife, possibly granting access to some fighter bonus feats. The concept of a soulknife is perfectly fine, they just messed up the progression curve and only gave them one thing they can do. If all you know is how to make a blade out of mental energy, its no good because you can't effectively use it.

Sweet! A blade!

If you were to give the mindblade an incarnum like set of powers, that would add a great deal of versatility. Fighter bonus feats are pretty crappy.

[UserClone]

I smell something like sweaty foot...

[erikun]

Yeah, Psionics aren't broken, the fluff is just annoying. They try to be broken, but they just aren't as versatile. Soulknives are possibly the least broken psionic class.

If all you know is how to make a blade out of mental energy, its no good because you can't effectively use it.
Least broken class, or least powerful? I agree that the soulknife is really underpowered, but that doesn't make it less broken than, say, a Psychic Warrior or Psion.

[Yuki Akuma]

Soulknife is not actually broken, like the Truenamer. That's unfair to the Truenamer.

The Soulknife just sucks. The Truenamer simply doesn't work.

[shadow_archmagi]

Soulknife is not actually broken, like the Truenamer. That's unfair to the Truenamer.

The Soulknife just sucks. The Truenamer simply doesn't work.

Truely. If soulknives are broken, so are commoners. (Actually, it occurs to me that commoners, with WBL, can have a magic sword, and are therefore on par with soulknifes (wait, don't they have lower BAB though? Lame))

[Yuki Akuma]

Truely. If soulknives are broken, so are commoners. (Actually, it occurs to me that commoners, with WBL, can have a magic sword, and are therefore on par with soulknifes (wait, don't they have lower BAB though? Lame))

Commoners aren't proficient with swords.

Now, a magic club, sure...

[AslanCross]

I really think the "most DMs don't allow psionics because they think it's broken" thing is a myth by now.

Unfortunately, people complaining about it comes up with surprising frequency. I think for every enlightened player or DM here, there are 5 more DMs and players who think Psionics is overpowered.

[erikun]

Commoners have lower BAB. And they are proficient with any one simple weapon.

I would consider "broken" to mean the class not preforming what it was (most apparently) supposed to do. Truenamer is broken because they can't really do anything. Soulknife is broken because they can't effectively use their weapon, nor their special abilities. Wizards are broken because I can't really conceive of even WotC designers giving them that many options intentionally.

[Samb]

Unfortunately, people complaining about it comes up with surprising frequency. I think for every enlightened player or DM here, there are 5 more DMs and players who think Psionics is overpowered.

This has more to do with DMs not wanting to learn another system and chalking it up too "it's broken" as an excuse for their laziness. And then there are a lot of players that just accept it rather than explain it to them.

Easiest way:
max PP=ML
Some DMs have been burned by not knowing that little fact and are surprised when they see a level 5 psion hit for 20d6 of damage.

Soulknives don't even manifest!!!!

[HCL]

The soulknife is possibly slightly better than the warrior, though the warrior has better BAB

[Xallace]

If you were to give the mindblade an incarnum like set of powers, that would add a great deal of versatility. Fighter bonus feats are pretty crappy.

Hey, whaddya know. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100035)

[Tavar]

Commoners have lower BAB. And they are proficient with any one simple weapon.
Get a skillful weapon. There, you're better than they are, much better if it's a spiked chain.

[Amphetryon]

Commoners have lower BAB. And they are proficient with any one simple weapon.


Commoners also get Handle Animal, allowing them to meaningfully contribute in (some) more situations than a Soulknife can.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Without metamagic reducers, a level 10 psion or wilder can put out more damage than a level 10 wizard.

I'll admit I'm not big on finding the most powerful way to do things, but from what I've seen this simply is untrue. Maybe for Wilders, since they can Wild Surge, but Psions and Wizards usually end up doing leveld6 damage per spell/power. The difference being that Wizard spells are auto-augmented, but also tend to cap at a certain amount of damage.

If I'm missing something, please point it out, else I'll never learn.

[Yuki Akuma]

Overchannel!

Envoy Cognizance! (Okay that one's pushing it, as it's three feats for +1 ML with one energy type.)

[Tavar]

Wouldn't overchannel only enhance increase the damage by 3 dice at it's maximum? Wooo.... a whole 10 points of damage more, on average. That's almost not completely insignificant....

[Bob]

The soul knife is a 5 level(10) prestige class stretched over 20 levels.

If you want to play one, fixes abound; but I would simply drop the rogue-like class features and make the mindblade hit like a truck. That's what the class should be about anyway.

fixed, I'm just glad someone else knew what I was talking about.

[sonofzeal]

Commoners also get Handle Animal, allowing them to meaningfully contribute in (some) more situations than a Soulknife can.
Especially venerable strongheart halfling commoners (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38).

[Optimystik]

Wouldn't overchannel only enhance increase the damage by 3 dice at it's maximum? Wooo.... a whole 10 points of damage more, on average. That's almost not completely insignificant....

It also increases all other level-dependent effects of the power, including ability to overcome SR, the level to which it can be augmented, and duration. Some powers have additional effects when augmented high enough.

Wild Surge is better (it goes higher, and pays the augmentation costs for you) but Overchannel is available to all manifesters.

[Tavar]

True, but in terms of blasting, it doesn't seem to blow wizards out of the water, as the other poster was insinuating. And doesn't the Wilder's Ability become dangerous to use as you level?

[TheWerdna]

Yes Soulknives are broken, but they can be fixed to be semi decient.

step 1: Give them a full BAB

step 2: Give mindblades a bonus to damage = to Wisdom aswell as a bonus to AC

Step 3: Give them Multiple Throw at level 10 instead of 17

Step 4: Psychic Strike can be used in a single atack that takes a Standard Action (Lets you use psychic strike and move in the same round)

Step 5: At level 8, 12, 16, 20 increase the range of a thrown mind blade by 5 feet


Above it was said tjay soulknives can make a magic weapon, but for 200,000 gold i can buy a better one. But you realise that gold could then be spent on other magic items.

Those changes aboive should help make soulknives competible. While they will not match the abilitys of Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Psions:; they will be more around the level of Barbarians, Rogues, Fighters, and Rangers

[Yuki Akuma]

Wouldn't overchannel only enhance increase the damage by 3 dice at it's maximum? Wooo.... a whole 10 points of damage more, on average. That's almost not completely insignificant....

I never said they were that much better at it.

[Tavar]

I was referring to Myrmex there.

[erikun]

I'll admit I'm not big on finding the most powerful way to do things, but from what I've seen this simply is untrue. Maybe for Wilders, since they can Wild Surge, but Psions and Wizards usually end up doing leveld6 damage per spell/power. The difference being that Wizard spells are auto-augmented, but also tend to cap at a certain amount of damage.

If I'm missing something, please point it out, else I'll never learn.
Better save DCs, for one. Energy Ray being a no save, ranged touch attack probably helps premote that line of thinking, too.

On the other hand, the Psion simply can't keep throwing out fully augmented powers continuously. A Wizard can fill all their spell slots with damaging spells (if they wanted to) and still be throwing them around long after the Psion has run out of juice.

[Yuki Akuma]

Better save DCs, for one. Energy Ray being a no save, ranged touch attack probably helps premote that line of thinking, too.

Just like the orb spells!

... In fact I think the way the Psion is better at being blasty is the whole "four spells in one power" thing they have with their Energy line.

[erikun]

If spontaneous Energy Substitution is the only thing making psionics stronger than arcane magic, I'll eat my shoes.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, there's also lower-level, more-reliable Time Stop.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Above it was said tjay soulknives can make a magic weapon, but for 200,000 gold i can buy a better one. But you realise that gold could then be spent on other magic items.Actually, getting a better weapon than the Soulknive's costs 72+9 thousand GP. And it's got far more options because you're able to use other enhancements besides the short list. 200K is for a decent weapon, something that the Soulknife lacks.

[lesser_minion]

I posted a soulknife fix a while back. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104047) </plug>

It's about the worst piece of homebrew I've actually finished, and it isn't really where I'd like it to be, but a few people liked it.

I'm not sure how far it really solves your problem though - if your DM thinks psionics are broken, they probably aren't going to come around any time soon.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

The Soulknife isn't a class. It's 20 levels of having a magic sword.I actually lol-ed. Wow, so true.

[nekomata2]

The soul knife is a 5 level prestige class stretched over 20 levels.

If you want to play one, fixes abound; but I would simply drop the rogue-like class features and make the mindblade hit like a truck. That's what the class should be about anyway.

10...it's a 10 level prestige class, mind blade with +1 every two levels, gets 5d6 sneak attack, and a channel power ability. I love the 3.0 PrC.

[Lycanthromancer]

Actually, getting a better weapon than the Soulknive's costs 72+9 thousand GP. And it's got far more options because you're able to use other enhancements besides the short list. 200K is for a decent weapon, something that the Soulknife lacks.+1 (with +9 in special abilities) weapon with greater magic weapon.

[tyckspoon]

Just like the orb spells!

... In fact I think the way the Psion is better at being blasty is the whole "four spells in one power" thing they have with their Energy line.

There's also the free +1 damage/die they can get by choosing Cold or Fire as the type on most of the powers, the ability to switch the save type to Fort (Evasion? What Evasion? Eat Coldball!) or increase the save DC with Electricity. And powers like Energy Shove and Energy Stun just don't have easy equivalents in the iconic Wizard blasting tools. Sure, a Wizard will do all of that better if he wants, but it takes a lot more resources than for the Psion.

[Grifthin]

I really think the "most DMs don't allow psionics because they think it's broken" thing is a myth by now.

I'm pushing to get psionics into the group. We still have major resistence to it around here.

[Bob]

@ the "psionics is broken" thing going on in here:

Your DM just doesn't want to take the time to learn all of those new spells.

[KurtKatze]

I really think the "most DMs don't allow psionics because they think it's broken" thing is a myth by now.

I'd rather say some DM's are too lazy to get into the whole psionic thing and therefore rather ban it than allow something they don't know anything about

[Sinfire Titan]

I'd rather say some DM's are too lazy to get into the whole psionic thing and therefore rather ban it than allow something they don't know anything about

This and the "Overpowered!" reaction are actually the most common, with Flavor being a close third. The DMs who think it is overpowered are mistaken, usually being given that impression while reading something like Energy Missile (never mind that Wizards get a spell that deals Xd6 to everything in a 15ft radius for 1 Round/X with no save or attack roll, where is the Wizard's CL, which can be boosted to 25 fairly easily). The ones who don't take the time to read the book better have a good excuse, as they can always just ask one of the other players to make sure the Psion's player isn't BSing them.


The third group makes no sense, as flavor can be rewritten. Most people who look at the XPH like that usually see the Star Wars subtext and never realize that the fluff is actually a lot older than that (easily Ancient Greece, possibly much older too).

[Ormur]

I'd rather say some DM's are too lazy to get into the whole psionic thing and therefore rather ban it than allow something they don't know anything about

Guilty as charged. I'm still learning the ropes and (arcane and divine) magic and TOB maneuvers are quite enough for me for the moment. More experienced players than me tell my psionics are more balanced than magic and I have no reason to doubt them but you can get by without them.

[Signmaker]

Actually, getting a better weapon than the Soulknive's costs 72+9 thousand GP. And it's got far more options because you're able to use other enhancements besides the short list. 200K is for a decent weapon, something that the Soulknife lacks.

Actually, it's called levels in Kensai, which magically fix the Soulknife's weapon issues while still keeping GP costs at a bare minimum. It's...so beautiful.:smallfrown:

[Optimystik]

True, but in terms of blasting, it doesn't seem to blow wizards out of the water, as the other poster was insinuating. And doesn't the Wilder's Ability become dangerous to use as you level?

What makes psionic blasting potentially better than arcane blasting:

1) Most powers let you choose your element;
2) Different elements target different saves (e.g. cold targets fort instead of reflex)
3) With Wild Surge or Overchannel, you can exceed your caster level (and Wild Surge pays your augmentation costs.)

The above make up somewhat for the lack of automatic scaling; however, they fail to account for the biggest advantages of arcane blasting - stacking metamagic, and metamagic reducers. With psionics, you can apply at most two metapsionic feats to one power (using your focus, and that of your psicrystal.) Meanwhile a wizard is tossing out Twinned Maximized Empowered Fell Drain orbs without wasting his move actions.

Wild Surge doesn't get more dangerous with your level, it gets more dangerous when you add more ML on (the chance of enervation increases by 5% with each ML you add.) All leveling does is allow the Wilder to add more ML. If a Wilder 20 uses a +1 Wild Surge, it's the same chance of enervation as a Wilder 1 doing it.

[Sinfire Titan]

Guilty as charged. I'm still learning the ropes and (arcane and divine) magic and TOB maneuvers are quite enough for me for the moment. More experienced players than me tell my psionics are more balanced than magic and I have no reason to doubt them but you can get by without them.

There's nothing stopping you from having the party Rules Lawyer keep track of what the Psionic character is doing and telling you if something is wrong with his actions. This way, you need only know that he targets the same stuff that a Wizard does (Touch AC, the three Saves, and SR). You don't even need to read the book so long as the Rules Lawyer isn't the Psionic character.

[lesser_minion]

Flavour can be a fairly complicated issue - I certainly wouldn't reject it out of hand as a reason not to allow psionics, any more than I'd reject any other 'aesthetic' issue.