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Grushvak
2009-12-20, 03:47 PM
I'm confused as to what a Factotum's role is in a group. I know it's a skillmonkey, and I intend to make full use of this aspect of the class, but what is a Factotum in combat?

Basically, I'm rolling an evil factotum that will have maxed out social skills (no diplomancy cheesing though) and high trapsmithing skills. The campaign I'm playing, however, is combat-heavy, and we've sadly been playing with a very kick-in-the-door approach to dungeon-delving, so I want to be able to reliably contribute something to the battles even when we don't know what we'll be facing and have little to no time to set up.

Keeping in mind we're playing at level 5 and this character probably won't last me more than 2-3 levels, which would be best?

-Dagger-chucking factotum, eventually PrCing into Master Thrower
-Factotum/Swordsage, relying on Shadow Blade manoeuvers
-Pure Factotum, relying on save-or-suck spells from either scrolls or his very limited spell selection

Also, how's a one-level dip of Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge devotion sound on a Factotum? And a 3 level dip of Swashbuckler? Should a Factotum multiclass like a madman, or is it best to stick with the base class for the good stuff that comes later?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 03:49 PM
Its role is everything.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-20, 03:53 PM
Its role is everything.

He's not kidding. It can cover any party role in combat for a short period of time (2-3 rounds usually, 1 round if going nova).

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 03:59 PM
I understand that it can do pretty much anything, but I'm guessing it still needs at least one strategy it can reliably fall back on. Something that, you know, will shape what feats he gets and what he multiclasses into. Also, what weapons he buys, what spell(s) he chooses.

Say an indeterminate CR5 encounter falls from the sky in a featureless plain. I need to know if I'm better off, say, throwing daggers or flanking in melee with another warrior. Of course I can do both, but I still have to specialize eventually. I'm sure you understand what I'm asking here.

Eldariel
2009-12-20, 04:00 PM
Indeed, you can just deal damage, but you especially excel at all the checks you add your Int to (Trip, for example works well) and can cast, fight at range, heal, etc. You even have Sneak Attack should you so desire; the only thing is, you'll be rapidly burning through your Inspiration. Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) showcases a nice array of combat abilities derived from Exotic Weapons and Factotum-abilities.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 04:00 PM
You mean there are Factotums that don't take Font of Inspiration for every feat slot they have?

And Factotums that multiclass? Are you nuts?

OldTrees
2009-12-20, 04:00 PM
IMHO.
Essentially the Factotums role is to sit back and participate in a minor way until they are needed. (ie using few Inspiration points).

When a crucial moment arises (crisis or decisive blow) the factotum acts. (uses Inspiration points)

Examples:
The tank is incapacitated, the factotum tanks for a bit or removes the incapacitating effect.

A trap/ambush gets the better of the main skillmonkey, the factotum neutralizes the situation. (Disables the Trap, Evacuated the party with the extra actions ...)

An important Knowledge Check is failed, the factotum tries the check. (using the +class level 1/day per skill ability)




As for a good fall back plan: Manyshot gives great damage per inspiration points due to it being one attack.

Multiclassing Factotums are not unheard of (Factotum has a nice L8 break point for dipping)

Ernir
2009-12-20, 04:02 PM
Its role is everything.

This. It does not do anything best, but it can do anything.


Keeping in mind we're playing at level 5 and this character probably won't last me more than 2-3 levels, which would be best?
So, you are a Factotum 5 right now, and don't expect the campaign to go on for more than 2 or 3 levels?

If it goes on beyond level 8, I'd get that 8th level and its standard action. Otherwise, I'd be cursing I got more than 3 levels.
Are you using Font of Inspiration?

If you want more melee power, I'd multiclass with Warblade. Swordsage introduces a bit more MAD than I generally care for.

Also, how's a one-level dip of Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge devotion sound on a Factotum?
Just fine. Cleric is a good dip if you pick your domains carefully.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 04:04 PM
You mean there are Factotums that don't take Font of Inspiration for every feat slot they have?

And Factotums that multiclass? Are you nuts?

See, now this is helpful. I'm not sarcastic. This is exactly the kind of information I want.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 04:05 PM
So, you are a Factotum 5 right now, and don't expect the campaign to go on for more than 2 or 3 levels.

I expect the campaign to go on, I just don't expect the character to. This campaign has a fairly high mortality rate.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 04:06 PM
The only Factotum that should take feats other than Font of Inspiration is one who is a gestalt Factotum//Artificer.

And even then most of his feats should be Font of Inspiration.

Okay I'm kidding. Partially.

There are effective builds that involve multiclassing out of Factotum. But, seriously, Factotum 20 is awesome.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 04:08 PM
Most Factoti do need some non-FoI feats, but not all that many. For example, an archer Factotum will need Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and maybe Percise shot. Other than that, though, pretty much everything goes to FoI.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-20, 04:09 PM
The only Factotum that should take feats other than Font of Inspiration is one who is a gestalt Factotum//Artificer.

And even then most of his feats should be Font of Inspiration.

Okay I'm kidding. Partially.

There are effective builds that involve multiclassing out of Factotum. But, seriously, Factotum 20 is awesome.

As I've said in the past, 3-5 FoIs is more than enough. And yes, there are Factotum builds that multiclass. Factotum 8/Warblade 12, Factotum 10/Chameleon 10, etc.

Edit: As for their main trick, most people use Iaijutsu Focus (Oriental Adventures, IIRC) and the Gnome Quickrazor. Effectively gives you Sudden Strike that's based on a Skill Check. So long as you can keep them from getting their Dex to AC against you, you can dish out competent levels of damage fairly quickly.

Siegel
2009-12-20, 04:11 PM
Don't Factoti PrC into Chameleon ?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 04:13 PM
Don't Factoti PrC into Chameleon ?

Sure, but then it's a Chameleon more than it is a Factotum. Chameleon's one of those PrCs.

I mean, if someone asked for the best build for a Chameleon, I'd recommend Factotum in an instant...

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-20, 04:30 PM
You can always take a gander at Person_Man's threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026), although they're mostly sort of melee-oriented. Boomerang Daze from Races of Eberron might be interesting.

Haberdashery
2009-12-20, 04:40 PM
This is something I've been meaning to ask for a long time, but never got around to it. Where is Font of Inspiration, exactly, and what does it do? I keep hearing about it for Factotum builds, but I can never find its location.

Yzzyx
2009-12-20, 04:40 PM
Factoti


Factoti


Factotums


Factotums

What is the plural of factotum, anyway? If it's from Latin neuter, it should be 'factota', I think, as with 'bacteria' and 'data'. I suppose it could be 'factoti': I'm not really a polyglot. It's probably just 'factotums,' considering the tedency of English to warp languages to suit its needs. Hmm...


You mean there are Factotums that don't take Font of Inspiration for every feat slot they have?

Yes. Those that aren't allowed to take it. Those few crazy people who think it's boring would count too, but I think they're just a myth.

Edit:


This is something I've been meaning to ask for a long time, but never got around to it. Where is Font of Inspiration, exactly, and what does it do? I keep hearing about it for Factotum builds, but I can never find its location.

Be enlightened. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-20, 04:41 PM
It's here. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22font+of+inspiration%22&l=1)

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 04:43 PM
What is the plural of factotum, anyway? If it's from Latin neuter, it should be 'factota', I think, as with 'bacteria' and 'data'. I suppose it could be 'factoti': I'm not really a polyglot. It's probably just 'factotums,' considering the tedency of English to warp languages to suit its needs. Hmm...


Ye speak the truth.

Fortuna
2009-12-20, 04:46 PM
As to the plural, being an Anglicized word means that factotums is correct enough. In Latin, I believe factota would be correct, yes.

UglyPanda
2009-12-20, 04:50 PM
Googled info here: link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871722/The_Factotum_Handbook)

You don't need any domains to have Knowledge Devotion. Clerics can trade in some of their domain for bonus domain feats, but the extra level of Factotum is better than a bonus feat.

FMArthur
2009-12-20, 04:56 PM
Factotum is usually referred to as being a 'generalist' class capable of filling any role. This is true to an extent, but a Factotum doesn't fill every role equally.
It's 10% of Cleric
It's 20% of a Wizard
It's 80% of a Fighter
It's 110% of a Rogue.

It's a huge skillmonkey with a couple of spells and the ability to self-buff for combat power and survivability in an instant. A Factotum can never be more than a backup mage, at best, but they make very competent warriors and can easily excel when dedicated to combat.

A Factotum's sources of nonmagical combat power are usually...
Font of Inspiration; with enough IPs you can effectively get Int to everything, always. You get a huge amount of Inspiration points using this feat compared to just from class levels. Great for multiclassing.
Cunning Strike; Sneak Attack for as many d6s as IPs you put into it. Font of Inspiration makes this pretty badly broken.
Cunning Surge; more standard actions, of course.
Iaijutsu Focus (skill from OA); attack a flat-footed enemy with a weapon you've just drawn and make an Iaijutsu Focus check to add 1d6 damage for every 5 points your check exceeds 5 by, to a 9d6 maximum. It's a skill check. Factotums love skill checks.
Knowledge Devotion (feat from CC); gain up to a +5 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls against a certain creature type until combat ends, based on one of six knowledge checks (depending on the creature type). Another great use of your skillmonkey power in combat, but maxing 6 more skills kind of kills your ability to perform as an ordinary skillmonkey.

Signmaker
2009-12-20, 05:05 PM
You mean there are Factotums that don't take Font of Inspiration for every feat slot they have?

And Factotums that multiclass? Are you nuts?

Factotum makes an excellent dip when combined with Able Learner. Three levels provide a pretty boost to 1/3 of skill types. So in a nutshell, yes.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 05:41 PM
All right, I still have a few things to work out (such as asking my DM is item familiars are allowed), but this thread's been really helpful in helping me decide what I want to do.


Factotum 5
Human
2 flaws
Heavy investment in Fonts of Inspiration
Iajitsu focus maxed out
Will dip into MoM for Gladiator Mask at level 6
Handy Haversack
EVERY SINGLE EXOTIC WEAPON EVER MADE


I still have a few things to work out, such as are item familiars allowed by my DM, and do I have enough skill points to use Knowledge Devotion efficiently, but I believe this character is going to be a blast to play.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 05:55 PM
I still have a few things to work out, such as are item familiars allowed by my DM, and do I have enough skill points to use Knowledge Devotion efficiently, but I believe this character is going to be a blast to play.

You're a Factotum!

You have the highest number of skill points possible in the game, and Intelligence is your primary stat. Of course you have enough skill points to use Knowledge Devotion efficiently.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 06:02 PM
You're a Factotum!

You have the highest number of skill points possible in the game, and Intelligence is your primary stat. Of course you have enough skill points to use Knowledge Devotion efficiently.

Rogues still have more points (8 to a Factotum's 6), but it's not like it's going to make much of a difference.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 06:04 PM
Rogues still have more points (8 to a Factotum's 6), but it's not like it's going to make much of a difference.

I thought Factotums had 8, too?

Oh well, not the first time I've been wrong about something.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 06:07 PM
And rogues have MAD, which a Factotum doesn't. So Factoti will probably end up with more points anyway.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-20, 06:18 PM
Rogues still have more points (8 to a Factotum's 6), but it's not like it's going to make much of a difference.

True but not all rogues max out inteligence, while a Factotum MUST do so

golentan
2009-12-20, 06:30 PM
A factotum can get max ranks in every skill ever made by Wizards. They can do spellcasting, healing, skillmonkey, tank, and damage dealer. They make a better fighter than a fighter (then again what doesn't), a better skillmonkey than a rogue, and everything else at least tolerably well.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 07:04 PM
A factotum can get max ranks in every skill ever made by Wizards. They can do spellcasting, healing, skillmonkey, tank, and damage dealer. They make a better fighter than a fighter (then again what doesn't), a better skillmonkey than a rogue, and everything else at least tolerably well.

What? How is that even possible? I know you can get an insanely high intelligence score by levels 15-20, but skill points from high intelligence aren't gained retroactively if I remember correctly. Is there some dirty trick I'm missing here?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:05 PM
What? How is that even possible? I know you can get an insanely high intelligence score by levels 15-20, but skill points from high intelligence aren't gained retroactively if I remember correctly. Is there some dirty trick I'm missing here?

I'm guessing he meant any skill - which is true. Every skill requires a very specific reading of Open Minded and Chaos Shuffle cheese.

golentan
2009-12-20, 07:09 PM
What? How is that even possible? I know you can get an insanely high intelligence score by levels 15-20, but skill points from high intelligence aren't gained retroactively if I remember correctly. Is there some dirty trick I'm missing here?

Yes. The build I'm thinking of involved abuse of the feat Skilled, an item familiar, and a couple of other things as I recall. I'll dig it up for you.

The base they used for it is the first entry in the Factotum Handbook skill section (which got 42 mastered skills): Described as


The Ultimate Skill-Master:
Changeling Rogue 1/Factotum 9/Exemplar 10: This character has skill mastery with Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Gather Information, and Intimidate. He also gets skill mastery in a total of 10 + Int mod other skills. Assuming a base 18 Int, +5 from levels, +5 from a Tome, and +6 from an item, that's a whopping 34 Int. In other words, this character ends up with skill mastery in the 5 social skill and another 22 others, for a total of 27 mastered skills. The base skill list has 35 skills on it (leaving out Speak Language, which you can't "master"), meaning that without extra skills (like Autohypnosis) you can afford to master all but 9 skills (I vote for Craft, Forgery, Heal, Perform, Profession, Use Rope, Handle Animal, Knowledge, and one more - your choice). I'd also vote you master Autohypnosis if possible, since the effects can be so handy. If you're bound and determined to get all them skills, you'll need to drop your Factotum level by 3 (losing Cunning Surge - ow!) and grab three levels of Dungeon Delver. This will net you another 3 + Int mod mastered skills, raising your mastered total to 42 skills. If that don't do the trick, nothing will. You could also consider 4 levels of Thief-Acrobat for mastery in Tumble, Balance, Climb, and Jump, which would allow you to manage mastery of NEARLY all the skills in the game without having to sacrifice too many feats (Dungeon Delver takes Alertness and Blind-Fight, but both of those can be grabbed with Exemplar bonus feats - if you don't mind waiting).

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:10 PM
Or you could do that.

Doing the Chaos Shuffle is less mind-bendingly verbose at least.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 07:32 PM
Or you could do that.

Doing the Chaos Shuffle is less mind-bendingly verbose at least.

The campaign I'm playing is mostly cheese-free. It makes it more challenging and interesting.

My DM knows of Chaos Shuffle and I'm sure he wouldn't allow it. I wouldn't want to use it either because, well, it's cheesy.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:33 PM
The campaign I'm playing is mostly cheese-free. It makes it more challenging and interesting.

My DM knows of Chaos Shuffle and I'm sure he wouldn't allow it. I wouldn't want to use it either because, well, it's cheesy.

Oh, I wouldn't use it either. I doubt Goletan expects anyone would use his trick either.

See my sig.

golentan
2009-12-20, 07:36 PM
Oh, I wouldn't use it either. I doubt Goletan expects anyone would use his trick either.

See my sig.

I don't expect anyone to use it, no. But the fact that it's possible, and not particularly difficult, to get that many skill points (when doing things like grandfathering Iaijutsu, or using Autohypnosis stuff, or whatever skill you need), means that the factotum has literally no role they can't fulfill.

FMArthur
2009-12-20, 07:46 PM
I don't expect anyone to use it, no. But the fact that it's possible, and not particularly difficult, to get that many skill points (when doing things like grandfathering Iaijutsu, or using Autohypnosis stuff, or whatever skill you need), means that the factotum has literally no role they can't fulfill.

I hate to break it to you, but Skillmonkey is one role. Being a REALLY good skillmonkey doesn't make it any less pathetic at being a divine caster.

golentan
2009-12-20, 07:58 PM
I hate to break it to you, but Skillmonkey is one role. Being a REALLY good skillmonkey doesn't make it any less pathetic at being a divine caster.

No, but its ability to turn undead, and employ magical healing, and make epic bluff checks to convince the universe it cast a spell, makes it a tolerable cleric replacement.

Fortuna
2009-12-20, 08:01 PM
No, but its ability to make epic bluff checks to convince the universe it cast a spell, makes it a miniature sun of awesomeness, radiating awesome to all of those nearby.

Fixed it for you, assuming you can actually do that. If you can't, then I feel very sad.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 08:01 PM
No, but its ability to turn undead, and employ magical healing, and make epic bluff checks to convince the universe it cast a spell, makes it a tolerable cleric replacement.

Anyone with UMD is a tolerable Cleric replacement.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 08:06 PM
Anyone with UMD is a tolerable Cleric replacement.

That is if by cleric you mean healbot.

Draz74
2009-12-20, 08:10 PM
I'd like to point out that the original intention of the class, in combat, was actually to do something different every time. "Let's see ... this combat, I think I'll shoot arrows for a round, then use a wand for a round, then go heal the Fighter, then go bull rush the annoying goblin archer out of the tree he's sitting in so he falls to his doom. Next combat, of course, I want to shake things up, so I'll start by laying down a battlefield control spell, then laying the smackdown in melee with my greatsword for a couple rounds, then using a different wand. Yesterday, remember when we fought that horde of Ghouls? That was great when I Turned them, summoned a dire badger, and 'healed' the leader to death with positive energy."

Yes, it's much easier to play a Factotum and be constantly effective if you take a few Fonts of Inspiration and use some kind of rules quirk like Iaijutsu Focus (i.e. something the designers didn't count on or intend) to always be good at something.

But I'm curious how effective the class can really be, when played by a smart player, if played as intended, making up his strategy on an encounter-by-encounter basis. Memorizing different spells each day. Using different wands each battle. Never spending a whole battle either in physical combat, nor using wands/scrolls, nor casting spells. And making do with the amount of Inspiration points the class comes with (rather than using FoI).

I tend to think this could actually be pretty darn effective. But for all that I've studied the Factotum class, my real-life playing experience with it is pretty limited as yet, so I can't answer this question with authority ...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 08:11 PM
That is if by cleric you mean healbot.

I dunno, a Factotum casting a few self-only buffs from scrolls would make a passable combat cleric.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 08:13 PM
I dunno, a Factotum casting a few self-only buffs from scrolls would make a passable combat cleric.

I suppose, but it'd get a little expensive after a while, and you'd have to waste a couple of rounds just getting buffed up.

FMArthur
2009-12-20, 08:14 PM
Wand Horder is a potent and useful role but is expensive and doesn't really belong to any particular class. Factotums are also talented at using their legs to walk. So is everyone else. :smalltongue:

It's just a super-rogue with a lot of self-buffs and a spell every now and then. There's nothing wrong with that, but it can't truly replace any party member except the skillmonkey and the warrior.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 08:34 PM
A Factotum-only party could be interesting. You could have a frontline fighter with Knowledge Devotion, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and/or Martial Study taken a bunch of times; a damage-dealer with various Sneak Attack-improving feats and items; and casters with wands and maybe various casting-oriented feats. None of them would be as optimal as one with Font of Inspiration for every feat, of course, but it would be an interesting experiment.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-20, 08:36 PM
And the fourth member would be a Factotum with Font of Inspiration as his only feats. Who takes the Chameleon prestige class.

FMArthur
2009-12-20, 08:38 PM
What makes you think they shouldn't all be factotum/chameleons? :smallcool:

Draz74
2009-12-20, 08:41 PM
What makes you think they shouldn't all be factotum/chameleons? :smallcool:

They want a +20 bonus to skill checks when they use Cunning Knowledge?
They want even more Inspiration Points?
They want the awesomeness that is Cunning Brilliance at high levels?
They want to continue having more skill points than they know what to do with?
Or the big one: They want to be a race other than Human.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 08:43 PM
Or the big one: They want to be a race other than Human.

Doppelganger!

...

Changeling?

Draz74
2009-12-20, 08:45 PM
Doppelganger!

...

Changeling?

Heh. Yeah, I know, I know ... Half-Ogre. Illumian. Karsite. Half-Elf. Half-Orc. Azurin. Silverbrow Human. Mongrelman.

Believe it or not, sometimes you don't want to be any of them. I myself happen to enjoy Whisper Gnome Factotums, for example.


A Factotum-only party could be interesting. You could have a frontline fighter with Knowledge Devotion, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and/or Martial Study taken a bunch of times; a damage-dealer with various Sneak Attack-improving feats and items; and casters with wands and maybe various casting-oriented feats. None of them would be as optimal as one with Font of Inspiration for every feat, of course, but it would be an interesting experiment.

I've seen it done. Of course, nothing keeps it from being done again/better.

I motion that the "Cleric-replacement" Factotum take the True Believer feat and utilize a couple of Relics regularly ...

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 08:48 PM
No, you want to be a Skulk factotum. Same built-in ridiculous stealth, but with the Human subtype. All factotums must be Chameleons. Search within your heart. You know it to be true.

EDIT: Relics! Good thinking.

Draz74
2009-12-20, 08:54 PM
All factotums must be Chameleons. Search within your heart. You know it to be true.

Well, I do really wish Factotum got the Floating Feat class feature. Then I would actually see very little appeal in going Chameleon as a Factotum* ... and it just fits the Factotum class so well ...

*Unless, of course, a Factotum/Chameleon could thus obtain two floating feats.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 08:56 PM
Bonus Feat [General]
Blah blah flavour text
Prerequisite: Int 17, Factotum level 9th
Benefit: You gain a bonus feat, which can be any feat you qualify for. Each day, you can change this bonus feat, just as a Chameleon can.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 08:59 PM
Bonus Feat [General]
Blah blah flavour text
Prerequisite: Int 17, Factotum level 9th
Benefit: You gain a bonus feat, which can be any feat you qualify for. Each day, you can change this bonus feat, just as a Chameleon can.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Is there any reason a Factotum wouldn't take this feat?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 09:00 PM
Is there any reason a Factotum wouldn't take Font of Inspiration?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 09:01 PM
Is there any reason a Factotum wouldn't take Font of Inspiration?

Because he/she needs another feat?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-20, 09:02 PM
Is there any reason a Factotum wouldn't take this feat?He's below level 9?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 09:02 PM
Maybe giving it a prerequisite that doesn't really do much would be a good idea... That way you're trading two feats for one "floating" feat, which admitedly sounds more balanced.

I blame the lack of thought on the two AM thing.

Draz74
2009-12-20, 09:02 PM
Bonus Feat [General]
Blah blah flavour text
Prerequisite: Int 17, Factotum level 9th
Benefit: You gain a bonus feat, which can be any feat you qualify for. Each day, you can change this bonus feat, just as a Chameleon can.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Well, since Factotums are already feat-starved, I'd prefer a class feature. But this would be workable too, especially if Font of Inspiration also gets revamped like we were discussing yesterday.

My inner balancer, unfortunately, is telling me it's probably more appropriate for a much higher level than 9th ... maybe 15th?

More interesting prerequisites would also be nice, but I can't think what they would be (other than stuff like Versatile Performer that's so lame that it would just be painful).

EDIT: Luck feats suck. Maybe "any Luck feat" would be a good prerequisite? You could even have a Luck Reroll be the price you expend for changing your Floating Feat during an adventuring day.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 09:14 PM
Bonus Feat [General]
Blah blah flavour text
Prerequisite: Int 17, Factotum level 9th
Benefit: You gain a bonus feat, which can be any feat you qualify for. Each day, you can change this bonus feat, just as a Chameleon can.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

I'd never allow that as a DM. Never. But I'd certainly take it as a player. :smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2009-12-20, 09:15 PM
Factotum, aside from being a consummate skillmonkey, is the ideal 5th wheel.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 09:18 PM
I'd never allow that as a DM. Never.

I wouldn't exactly call it broken. Not when you've got natural spell and divine metamagic running around. My only complaint is that there is no reason a factotum of sufficient level wouldn't take it.

Lamech
2009-12-20, 09:24 PM
Guys, guys, guys.... this whole font of insperation every level is great and all, but Leadership, I would guess could be even more broken.

Also, hydra's attack with all their heads as a standard action right? 'Cause its their basic attack "X bites".

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 09:24 PM
I wouldn't exactly call it broken. Not when you've got natural spell and divine metamagic running around. My only complaint is that there is no reason a factotum of sufficient level wouldn't take it.

My main issue with this is that it's taking one of, if not the most appealing class feature of the Chameleon and making it a feat. It is also more powerful than any single feat ever published by Wizards because, well, it can be any single feat ever published by Wizards.

It's crazy good. And unbalanced. If you're rolling with druids and wizards, I'd allow it, but in a tier 3-4 campaign, no. I like the idea but there has to be a buy-off of some kind.

FMArthur
2009-12-20, 09:47 PM
It should be an Alternate Class Feature, and cost you something that isn't ever useless. Like a limb. Or require communing with Asmodeous to change every morning.

Draz74
2009-12-20, 09:58 PM
It should be an Alternate Class Feature, and cost you something that isn't ever useless. Like a limb. Or require communing with Asmodeous to change every morning.

I don't think it's that powerful. (On the other hand, certain builds certainly can do just fine without those trivial things called "limbs" ... e.g. the Psion Sandwich.)

FMArthur
2009-12-20, 10:04 PM
I don't think it's that powerful. (On the other hand, certain builds certainly can do just fine without those trivial things called "limbs" ... e.g. the Psion Sandwich.)

Yeah, I think it's fine to just charge two feats for one flexible feat. I'd probably even allow any class to take it. What do you think of that idea?

Inhuman Bot
2009-12-20, 10:21 PM
Question!

What's a Factotum?

Draz74
2009-12-20, 10:23 PM
Question!

What's a Factotum?

A base class from the book Dungeonscape. Like a Rogue, but instead of Sneak Attack, gets a bunch of jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none abilities.

(Only, it is master of one trade, namely skill use ...)


Yeah, I think it's fine to just charge two feats for one flexible feat. I'd probably even allow any class to take it. What do you think of that idea?

Seems like it should be restricted to classes or characters who have an archetype of being especially flexible. Factotum, Rogue, Fighter? Sure. Wizard, Monk, Paladin? Not so much.

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 10:32 PM
I'd let monks and paladins pick it, if only because they're monks and paladins and need all the help they can get.

Draz74
2009-12-20, 10:33 PM
I'd let monks and paladins pick it, if only because they're monks and paladins and need all the help they can get.

Balance-wise, sure, duh. I was just going by fluff, not by "what would change this feat into a useful balance tool?".

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-20, 11:00 PM
Balance-wise, sure, duh. I was just going by fluff, not by "what would change this feat into a useful balance tool?".

For paladin, I suppose you could describe it as daily divine inspiration. I'm not sure what to do for monk though...

Grushvak
2009-12-20, 11:05 PM
The overdeity, Pun-Pun, decided to extend some of his influence in order to allow the monks to reshape their skills and competences.

He did this because he took pity on them.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-21, 12:59 AM
The role of Factotum (with Font of Inspriration and other such cheese) is to find a way to annoy DMs just as much, yet without being a dedicated spellcaster. That's tough to do.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-21, 01:00 AM
The role of Factotum (with Font of Inspriration and other such cheese) is to find a way to annoy DMs just as much, yet without being a dedicated spellcaster. That's tough to do.You seem to have very strange ideas.

Tavar
2009-12-21, 01:04 AM
The role of Factotum (with Font of Inspriration and other such cheese) is to find a way to annoy DMs just as much, yet without being a dedicated spellcaster. That's tough to do.

Huh? If all your cunning plans can be beaten by a novaing factotum, maybe they aren't as cunning as you'd like to think.

Coidzor
2009-12-21, 01:12 AM
The role of Factotum (with Font of Inspriration and other such cheese) is to find a way to annoy DMs just as much, yet without being a dedicated spellcaster. That's tough to do.

So basically for experienced players who want a fun challenge without needing to worry about getting killed off easily.

FMArthur
2009-12-21, 01:35 AM
Huh? If all your cunning plans can be beaten by a novaing factotum, maybe they aren't as cunning as you'd like to think.

Well, with enough Fonts of Inspiration, a Factotum can nova pretty enormously with little effort and at little cost by blowing all of his IPs on Cunning Strike, or worse, blowing all of his IPs on Cunning Strike and using Iaijutsu Focus. At sixth level with an item familiar and 5 FoIs you could be looking at an attack that adds between 22d6 and 25d6 damage. Not exactly trivial and without requiring much more than knowledge of Factotum, OA and UA.

I would hate to be the one DM out of fifty who tries something different and has a BBEG who isn't a full caster, but runs into this or uberchargers. :smalltongue:

Grushvak
2009-12-21, 01:48 AM
Do you declare the use of Cunning Strike before the attack roll? Because with my luck, it'd be a natural 1. :tongue:

Some backstory to go with this statement: my previous character in this campaign was a kobold warlock level 4. I played very cautiously, exploiting his high hide check and his extremely long EB range. In 4 levels, he was the target of two attack rolls, total.

The second one was a 59 damage greataxe crit. From a level 1 barbarian.

So yeah, I try not to rely on luck for anything, because the dice hate me. No blowing all my inspiration on one attack. :smallconfused:

Draz74
2009-12-21, 01:52 AM
Do you declare the use of Cunning Strike before the attack roll? Because with my luck, it'd be a natural 1.

Yes, by RAW you declare Cunning Strike before rolling the attack roll. So no, with "your luck," this is not a good abusive strategy. :smallwink:

Fortuna
2009-12-21, 02:16 AM
Where can you pull 59 damage from at level 1?

Gralamin
2009-12-21, 02:20 AM
Well, with enough Fonts of Inspiration, a Factotum can nova pretty enormously with little effort and at little cost by blowing all of his IPs on Cunning Strike, or worse, blowing all of his IPs on Cunning Strike and using Iaijutsu Focus. At sixth level with an item familiar and 5 FoIs you could be looking at an attack that adds between 22d6 and 25d6 damage. Not exactly trivial and without requiring much more than knowledge of Factotum, OA and UA.

I would hate to be the one DM out of fifty who tries something different and has a BBEG who isn't a full caster, but runs into this or uberchargers. :smalltongue:

Cunning Strike gives only 1d6 ever, by RAW.

RebelRogue
2009-12-21, 02:21 AM
Where can you pull 59 damage from at level 1?
Raging half-orc barbarian (Str 24), greataxe, power attack. That's 3d12+36. Doable with a little luck on the barbarian's half (or unluck from the player, it seems :smallwink: )

sonofzeal
2009-12-21, 02:22 AM
Where can you pull 59 damage from at level 1?
If he crit with a greataxe, that's x3. An 18 str before racial adjustment means a max crit damage of 72, or 81 while raging.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-21, 02:24 AM
Where can you pull 59 damage from at level 1?You can't, but you can do better. Orc Barb critting with a greataxe, rolling at least 11. So 1d12+7(Str(16+4[racial]+4[Rage]))+2(PA), gives you a range from 30 to 63.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-21, 02:26 AM
Cunning Strike gives only 1d6 ever, by RAW. Yes, I know; that's why I added the "and other such cheese" qualifier. The quest for power knows no limits, especially the letter of the written rules.

Draz74
2009-12-21, 02:27 AM
You can't, but you can do better. Orc Barb critting with a greataxe, rolling at least 11. So 1d12+7(Str(16+4[racial]+4[Rage]))+2(PA), gives you a range from 30 to 63.

When you crit, you roll the damage each time, not just roll it once and multiply it. So 59 damage is perfectly possible.

Grushvak
2009-12-21, 02:30 AM
Cunning Strike gives only 1d6 ever, by RAW.

Where in the description does it say that? It isn't specified from what I'm reading, and it really could be interpreted either way.

Actually, from the text alone, I'd have to say RAW allows for as many d6's as you have Inspiration. RAI might be another matter completely, though I strongly doubt the authors would give someone a sneak attack class feature only to limit it to 1d6 regardless of level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-21, 02:31 AM
Yes, I know; that's why I added the "and other such cheese" qualifier. The quest for power knows no limits, especially the letter of the written rules.Frankly, that's not an issue for a DM. If you're worried about damage, don't look at the spellcasters and Factotum. Look at the Fighter. Damage, especially SA-based damage, can be planned for and prevented. Things like the Factotum's spell list are the problem for any actual planning.

and the SA thing is debatable, either way. I say don't allow it to stack but allow it to qualify for Craven. Not RAW, but balanced.

Gralamin
2009-12-21, 02:35 AM
Where in the description does it say that? It isn't specified from what I'm reading, and it really could be interpreted either way.

Actually, from the text alone, I'd have to say RAW allows for as many d6's as you have Inspiration. RAI might be another matter completely, though I strongly doubt the authors would give someone a sneak attack class feature only to limit it to 1d6 regardless of level.

It is very easy to miss:

You can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage. You must spend the inspiration point to active this ability before making the attack roll.
This isn't +1d6 points of sneak attack damage, this is an absolute number. I think there is also an argument that the second sentence means it must be activated right before attacking, and so spending two points wastes one that way.

I'm sure if Curmudgeon is still around he can give you a more precise answer.

Grushvak
2009-12-21, 02:38 AM
Nah, it won't be necessary. You make a solid argument. I'm just slightly disappointed, is all.

Draz74
2009-12-21, 02:43 AM
Nah, it won't be necessary. You make a solid argument. I'm just slightly disappointed, is all.

Meh. In my book, this is in the category of obvious houserules to "fix" automatically, like healing-by-drowning or Monks not being proficient with Unarmed Strikes.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-21, 02:47 AM
Meh. In my book, this is in the category of obvious houserules to "fix" automatically, like healing-by-drowning or Monks not being proficient with Unarmed Strikes.
And tower shields of invisibility. :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2009-12-21, 02:48 AM
It is very easy to miss:

This isn't +1d6 points of sneak attack damage, this is an absolute number. I think there is also an argument that the second sentence means it must be activated right before attacking, and so spending two points wastes one that way.

I'm sure if Curmudgeon is still around he can give you a more precise answer.

Does it say what kind of action it is? Because Arcane Strike has similar wording, but since it's a free action you can activate it as many times as you have spells before attacking, thus allowing you to hit for several dozen d4s of damage. If they specify, I'd expect Cunning Strike to be a free action and therefore nova-able. If it's a swift action, though, then it's limited to 1d6 unless you are wise in the ways of cheese. (Well, technically it's not limited, but it won't be remotely worthwhile to go through the effort to get it more than once per round. A Ruby Knight Vindicator could do it, but when you can use those swift actions for spells instead of 1d6 extra damage on one attack...)

Thurbane
2009-12-21, 02:55 AM
Where in the description does it say that? It isn't specified from what I'm reading, and it really could be interpreted either way.

Actually, from the text alone, I'd have to say RAW allows for as many d6's as you have Inspiration. RAI might be another matter completely, though I strongly doubt the authors would give someone a sneak attack class feature only to limit it to 1d6 regardless of level.
I've seen this argued many times, and I have to agree with Gralamin. The explicit wording of the ability only ever mentions a singular d6.Any other interpretation is "creative", shall we say...YMMV...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113400
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111626&page=5

FMArthur
2009-12-21, 03:23 AM
Personally, I think it was intended to work in a stackable way and was quite balanced (a single strike of rogue-equivalent power per encounter?) before FoI. Just limit it to half their character level; you're houseruling it anyway to eat up an action or to make extra damage dice not stack (which the rules treat differently from fixed bonuses/penalties).

Draz74
2009-12-21, 03:34 AM
Personally, I think it was intended to work in a stackable way and was quite balanced underpowered (a single strike of rogue-equivalent power per encounter?) before FoI.

Fixed that for you.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-21, 03:56 AM
Nein. Stackable, but only using their base inspiration points would allow for a pretty decent sneak atack once per encounter, or a bunch of little ones, with damage near or somewhat above a rogue's damage. Repeated Font of Inspiration for several dozen d6s worth once per encounter is not so balanced.

raitalin
2009-12-21, 04:37 AM
I'd like to point out that the original intention of the class, in combat, was actually to do something different every time. "Let's see ... this combat, I think I'll shoot arrows for a round, then use a wand for a round, then go heal the Fighter, then go bull rush the annoying goblin archer out of the tree he's sitting in so he falls to his doom. Next combat, of course, I want to shake things up, so I'll start by laying down a battlefield control spell, then laying the smackdown in melee with my greatsword for a couple rounds, then using a different wand. Yesterday, remember when we fought that horde of Ghouls? That was great when I Turned them, summoned a dire badger, and 'healed' the leader to death with positive energy."

*snip*

But I'm curious how effective the class can really be, when played by a smart player, if played as intended, making up his strategy on an encounter-by-encounter basis. Memorizing different spells each day. Using different wands each battle. Never spending a whole battle either in physical combat, nor using wands/scrolls, nor casting spells. And making do with the amount of Inspiration points the class comes with (rather than using FoI).

*snip*


This is basically how I played my recent epic Factotum, no nova-ing, liberal wand use and occasional sneak-attacking (from Cunning Brilliance, not Cunning Strike). I constantly outshined the (admittedly pitifully built, power-gamed without a clue, evocation-casting) wizard. Guess I could've gotten much of the same combat effectiveness from a rogue, but then I wouldn't have dominated all the skill use, including knowledges, as well.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-21, 05:13 AM
Does it say what kind of action it is? Because Arcane Strike has similar wording, but since it's a free action you can activate it as many times as you have spells before attacking
Uh, no. The action involved isn't an issue here; stacking is.
Cunning Strike (Ex): With a quick study of a vulnerable opponent’s defenses, you can spot the precise area you need to hit to score a telling blow. Starting at 4th level, you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). Cunning Strike modifies the Factotum's damage roll by adding 1d6. The basic stacking rule won't let you add multiple modifiers to your damage roll from the same source (Cunning Strike).

Gralamin got it right the first time:

Cunning Strike gives only 1d6 ever, by RAW.

Thurbane
2009-12-21, 11:59 AM
IMHO, if it was intended for you to be able to spend multiple IPs to get multiple sneak attack dice, the wording would have been quite different, and would have explicitly spelled this out.

Draz74
2009-12-21, 02:08 PM
IMHO, if it was intended for you to be able to spend multiple IPs to get multiple sneak attack dice, the wording would have been quite different, and would have explicitly spelled this out.

Nah. Dungeonscape, for all its brilliance, wasn't exactly edited thoroughly. I stand by what I said before: though the book's wording technically does limit Cunning Strike to 1d6, this is an obvious oversight. Cunning Strike is just too worthless otherwise (way worse than Cunning Insight, which comes three levels earlier).


This is basically how I played my recent epic Factotum, no nova-ing, liberal wand use and occasional sneak-attacking (from Cunning Brilliance, not Cunning Strike). I constantly outshined the (admittedly pitifully built, power-gamed without a clue, evocation-casting) wizard. Guess I could've gotten much of the same combat effectiveness from a rogue, but then I wouldn't have dominated all the skill use, including knowledges, as well.

Glad to hear this ...

Grushvak
2010-01-21, 11:15 AM
Alright, after a rather long hiatus, the next game is coming. My Factotum is pretty much done. I'll be spending all my WBL on a Handy Haversack (Item Familiar), Quiver of Ehlonna (just because), and the rest on scrolls, wands and utility items.

Anything particularly good from the Complete Scoundrel item list? I'm digging the hidden weapons since they'd let me trigger Iajitsu Focus.