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View Full Version : [3.5] Observer – Curious, playable beholderkin.



Draxar
2009-12-20, 06:53 PM
So, I have a desire to play a beholderkin.

Currently I'm playing in a post apocalytic Eberron game, we've recently taken over Kundarak Hold due to the dwarves inside all being dead. We've invited a couple of hundred refugees in, and we're currently dealing with a ghoul infestation down below. We're ECL 9, with a Warforged Soulknife/Swordsage, a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Swashbuckler-Archivist, and a Brass Dragon Incarnate/Dragon Adept (Dragonfire adept adjusted to make it useful for dragons). I'm the most optimisation happy of the group, but I carefully keep an eye on that to not unbalance the game.

Eyebeasts... I'm going to lay out my general thoughts, what I'm after is feedback on them, further suggestions, and then a hand turning those thoughts into the crunch of a monster.

The two things to be considered from the start are the fluff – why is this creature entering the ranks of the beholders, and the crunch – I don't think any of the current beholders have an ECL, why don't they, and how can I make sure this creature is playable, not stupid.

The Fluff

In Eberron, as I understand it, the Beholders were created as living artillery for the Dalkyr. The usual "they're completely ****ing nuts, all think they're the only true beholder and everyone else is a mutant freak" seems to apply far less. They're probably still far from friendly though.

The friendliest of the beholderkin seems generally to be the spectator – as long as you're not going for what it's guarding, they're friendly and talkative. So, I see a Dalkyr notceing this, thinking it might be useful, and deciding to make something from the Spectator as a 'base' which is designed to wander around learning and experiencing anything it can. Then (via some means that I'm as yet not entirely sure on) the Dalkyr gets this information, and files it away for future use.

The Dalkyr are very patient – they've been thousands of years sealed underground without making any strong attempt to get out. So thus the extracting of information from the Observer (best name I've come up for it so far, but I'm open to other suggestions) doesn't have to interfere with the playability of the character. I think either when it reaches a certain age/level, it has to go and report in, or it does so every so often via long range telepathy/similar, or possibly, for added amusement and flavor, given the Dalkyr love of symbiotes, it generates symbiotes that contain its memories, it can use them to transmit information to friends based on what it's seen, but some of them also creep off and head down to report in.

So, that's the fluff – it should be an instatiably curious being, not necessarily intrinsically evil. Probably chaotic to neutral on the law to chaos, in that it wanders wherever it wants looking around and doing what it feels like, it doesn't build for others. On evil to good, it might have slightly less tendency to be good, but beyond that, good is possible, neutral and evil are both equally fully viable.

Now, the crunch...

Why are there no Beholders with a stated level adjustment? The 'bugnuts crazy' thing may be part of it, and some are just in scale above ECL 20, but I think it's primarily the multi-turret ability that they have – even the Spectator can throw 4 eyerays, one in each direction, whereas others go up to 13, 5 in any one direction. And on top of that, there's usually an always-on gaze.

Sure, some of the individual powers or combinations may be OTT, but I think as a broad thing, that's the issue. Their action economy is too good. Especially once you start adding class levels – because all the above are free actions (bar narrowing a gaze), you can do whatever your class lets you do and throw your eyes at them.

So, to make it playable, you need to reduce that action economy. Of course, the question becomes, how do you do that without losing what makes a beholder. While you could make it take actions to use the eyebeams, I think a more elegant method would be to make it so that the different eye powers do not create such an economy.

The thing's an Observer, rather than a fighter, so for a start, most of the eye powers can be non-combat, or only slightly combat. You probably still want at least one relatively direct damage effect, but you probably don't need more than that, and you don't need other fairly directly combat effects (such as sleep, Paralysis, exhaustion, stunning, Fear, Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, spell turning, antimagic).

So, what eyerays should it get? If it's based on the Spectator, it has 4 eyestalks and a central gaze, which start off as Inflict Moderate, Hold Monster, Telepathy + Suggestion, and Fatigue, plus gaze of spell turning.

I'd say keep the Inflict Moderate as its one attack form, possibly keep the telepathy (not sure if it should keep the suggestion), then lose Hold Monster, Fatigue, and Spell turning.

I'm not entirely sure what to replace them with; discussing with a friend we thought Minor Image (which the Director gets), but I'm currently drawing a blank as to other appropriate powers for the stalks.

For the central eye, I've had lots of different thoughts – arcane sight, X ray vision, and detect thoughts as a cone being the main three. I'm open to other suggestions though. And to the weird idea of more than one central eye, given its observation fixation.

Beyond that, other mechanical features for it...

Small or Medium size (Spectator is Medium)

Give it some ability of illusion (or possibly alternate form) to make it look like humanoids, and possibly animals (maybe just those of its size, maybe small and medium), because that way it can wander around looking at stuff without everyone going "Arrgh! Beholder! Kill it!"

It needs some kind of sensory boost over that of the average beholderkin, but I'm not sure exactly what.

The Future

Now, we're currently level 9, and I'd like something I could play at 9 or 10, and find reasonably interesting. It doesn't need to be strong twinked – it needs to be able to do its thing, hold its own when combat does happen, but the group I'm in are really not that heavily optimised.

I've had a look at the Savage Species level adjustment devising guide, but I think, once we've worked out the powers, the stats, and so forth, I could use some help working out how many hit dice and what LA it should have.

Assuming it doesn't die super-fast, I'll then need to advance the thing. The question is, of course, as what? I can't initially think of any character classes that really fit it, and I don't know if there'd be any prestige classes it'd qualify for. Suggestions on that would be welcome, but I'd also be interested in making a monster class/savage progression that took it all the way to 20, with its powers increasing as you go. Given that it's a product of Dalkyr warping, it could continue to mutate as it aged, gaining additional eyestalks or (as mentioned above) additional central eyes.

So, can anyone offer some suggestions on that rather rambling bit of creation/

Apalala
2009-12-20, 07:22 PM
A curious beholder that's charged with gathering information about any and everything sounds like it would be a good suit for my photographer PrC <__<;

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135118

The class uses a magically conjured camera, but I think that could be refluffed into the beholder's central eye easily enough. The fact that it has several vision related abilities works well too. The focus of the class is support and information gathering, so it might be what you're looking for.

Draxar
2009-12-20, 08:13 PM
A curious beholder that's charged with gathering information about any and everything sounds like it would be a good suit for my photographer PrC <__<;

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135118

The class uses a magically conjured camera, but I think that could be refluffed into the beholder's central eye easily enough. The fact that it has several vision related abilities works well too. The focus of the class is support and information gathering, so it might be what you're looking for.

Possibly, though from a quick look that seems to be rather more tongue in cheek than what I'm going for.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 08:44 PM
Scout would be a great class for the fluff, and doesn't run into the problems of getting combat skills it can't use because at has no arms (as with Ranger) or being heavily focused on skills that might be awkward to use since it has no arms (as with Rogue). And if it can move and use its eye rays for Skirmish damage, it could be quite effective. A Psion (telepath) might also fit well, as would Beguiler or possibly Wizard. No Beholder Mage, though; that way lies madness.

Crunchwise, I can't think of much that you don't already have.

Draxar
2009-12-20, 08:49 PM
Scout would be a great class for the fluff, and doesn't run into the problems of getting combat skills it can't use because at has no arms (as with Ranger) or being heavily focused on skills that might be awkward to use since it has no arms (as with Rogue). And if it can move and use its eye rays for Skirmish damage, it could be quite effective. A Psion (telepath) might also fit well, as would Beguiler or possibly Wizard. No Beholder Mage, though; that way lies madness.

Problem is with monsters with a reasonable base ECL, that the first level of an appropriate class is quite good, but for a while after that the class features don't really match up to what you're facing.


Crunchwise, I can't think of much that you don't already have.

I think the main thing I'm after is alternate suggestions for Eyestalks, and definitely suggestions for the central eye, and generic sensory bonuses, as they're where I'm stumped at the moment. I considered making it a full on psionic beastie 'cause of seer powers, and the dalkyr have some experience of that through their Ithillids, but it seemed too complicated and too far from the original spectator.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 09:26 PM
I don't know, psionic might be pretty interesting. Say, Touchsight for the central eye, and Detect Psionics/Magic, Mind Thrust (later upgraded to Telekinetic Thrust or Foce), Psionic Daze (later upgraded to Hold Person and Hold Monster), and Precognition (choose between Offensive and Defensive when you manifest it).

Silverscale
2009-12-21, 05:54 AM
Any sort of Detect spells would word for eye abilities since that would help maximize the level of detailed information it could gather.

paddyfool
2009-12-21, 06:53 AM
As stated, the Dalkyr like symbiotes. How about if the Observor isn't a floating eye, but a parasite that somehow colonises a host (willing or unwilling is up to you) and appears as a third eye on their forehead, granting PP, some form of gaze attack, and improved spot/search? If so, it would probably be best done as a +2 LA-ish template that could be applied to any humanoid, giant or monstrous humanoid. EDIT: Of course, it should probably also have improved mental stats and a mechanic for infecting new hosts.

You could then have some form of specific prestige class that gives this being the ability to sprout extra eyestalks with various other types of gaze attack. Fun?

Draxar
2009-12-21, 09:07 AM
As stated, the Dalkyr like symbiotes. How about if the Observor isn't a floating eye, but a parasite that somehow colonises a host (willing or unwilling is up to you) and appears as a third eye on their forehead, granting PP, some form of gaze attack, and improved spot/search? If so, it would probably be best done as a +2 LA-ish template that could be applied to any humanoid, giant or monstrous humanoid. EDIT: Of course, it should probably also have improved mental stats and a mechanic for infecting new hosts.

You could then have some form of specific prestige class that gives this being the ability to sprout extra eyestalks with various other types of gaze attack. Fun?

That's a possibility, though it would make 'em more evil than I'd like. I'd still lean towards 'more racial levels' rather than a species specific character class.

I have to admit I have thought of doing it that way, mostly because of this picture:

http://i49.tinypic.com/1981ad.jpg


I don't know, psionic might be pretty interesting. Say, Touchsight for the central eye, and Detect Psionics/Magic, Mind Thrust (later upgraded to Telekinetic Thrust or Foce), Psionic Daze (later upgraded to Hold Person and Hold Monster), and Precognition (choose between Offensive and Defensive when you manifest it).


Any sort of Detect spells would word for eye abilities since that would help maximize the level of detailed information it could gather.

The main issue with things like precognition, and detects on the eyestalks is that looking across all the other beholders, the eyestalks are usually single target effects.

Part of me does really like idea of slowly gaining more central eyes, each providing a different detection cone effect.

Obrysii
2009-12-21, 09:19 AM
I posted stats to a playable beholder here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130603)....

Beholderkin, Explorer
Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8 (8hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10ft., Fly 20ft. (average)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 natural +1 dex +1 size)
Face/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
BaB/Grapple: +0/-6
Attack: Longsword +0 (1d8-2) or Bite -4 (1d4-2)
Full Attack: Longsword +0 (1d8+2) and Bite -4 (1d4-2)
Special Attack: Eye rays
Special Qualities: Flight
Saves: ?
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: ?
Skills: ?
Alignment: Usually neutral
CR: 1
LA: +1

A small-sized orb approaches you inquisitively, its large central eye regarding you with thought and curiousity. Above its main eye are a pair of smaller eyes, and below the main eye is a gaping maw, filled with teeth but kept closed unless it is speaking. Below that, mounted to the bottom of its sphere-like body, are a pair of humanoid arms and hands.

Explorer Beholderkin are not directly related to the true Beholders, but rather are strange spawn of unknown origin and purpose. Driven by curiousity, the Explorers have slowly started popping up in cities around the world.

Combat
Explorer Beholderkin rarely fight, but when they do, they use manufactured weapons in addition to their own bite attack.

Eye rays (sp): An explorer beholderkin has two eyes permenently situated above its central eye. These are somewhat unique compared to other Beholderkind, because their functions are not set. In youth, an explorer beholderkin is taught two cantrips - and these become the eye ray's effects. They may use each cantrip up to 3 times per day. The DC is charisma based.

Flight (ex): An explorer beholderkin's flight is naturally produced by gasses contained within its body.


Explorer Beholderkin as Player Races
Str -2, Dex +2, Int +2, Cha -2
Speed: 10ft., Fly 20ft. (average)
Flight (ex): As above
Eye rays (sp): As above
Bite: Explorer Beholderkin have a secondary bite attack dealing 1d4+str
Arms: Explorer Beholderkin have two human-like arms, which enable them to use weapons and items as a humanoid might.
Small-sized
Aberration type
LA +1

Draxar
2009-12-21, 09:37 AM
I wonder if Telekinesis could work as it's one attack form, as that allows you to both attack and do less combatty stuff, which fits the idea.


I posted stats to a playable beholder here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130603)....

Beholderkin, Explorer
Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8 (8hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10ft., Fly 20ft. (average)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 natural +1 dex +1 size)
Face/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
BaB/Grapple: +0/-6
Attack: Longsword +0 (1d8-2) or Bite -4 (1d4-2)
Full Attack: Longsword +0 (1d8+2) and Bite -4 (1d4-2)
Special Attack: Eye rays
Special Qualities: Flight
Saves: ?
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: ?
Skills: ?
Alignment: Usually neutral
CR: 1
LA: +1

A small-sized orb approaches you inquisitively, its large central eye regarding you with thought and curiousity. Above its main eye are a pair of smaller eyes, and below the main eye is a gaping maw, filled with teeth but kept closed unless it is speaking. Below that, mounted to the bottom of its sphere-like body, are a pair of humanoid arms and hands.

Explorer Beholderkin are not directly related to the true Beholders, but rather are strange spawn of unknown origin and purpose. Driven by curiousity, the Explorers have slowly started popping up in cities around the world.

Combat
Explorer Beholderkin rarely fight, but when they do, they use manufactured weapons in addition to their own bite attack.

Eye rays (sp): An explorer beholderkin has two eyes permenently situated above its central eye. These are somewhat unique compared to other Beholderkind, because their functions are not set. In youth, an explorer beholderkin is taught two cantrips - and these become the eye ray's effects. They may use each cantrip up to 3 times per day. The DC is charisma based.

Flight (ex): An explorer beholderkin's flight is naturally produced by gasses contained within its body.


Explorer Beholderkin as Player Races
Str -2, Dex +2, Int +2, Cha -2
Speed: 10ft., Fly 20ft. (average)
Flight (ex): As above
Eye rays (sp): As above
Bite: Explorer Beholderkin have a secondary bite attack dealing 1d4+str
Arms: Explorer Beholderkin have two human-like arms, which enable them to use weapons and items as a humanoid might.
Small-sized
Aberration type
LA +1

It's an interesting idea, but it's not what I'm after; it plays down the aberant nature of the thing too much.

dsmiles
2009-12-21, 10:33 AM
Good idea.

I think it should keep it's suggestion power ("Let's see what happens if I tell the human to do this..."), and the inflict moderate wounds power, for offensive purposes.

Maybe give it a major image as it's "always on" power (which would double as it's illusion power to make it look humanoid, maybe). As for the other two...something that can be used both offensively and defensively, maybe? Otto's Irrestible Dance or Tasha's Hideous Laughter, I think. Or maybe a shield power?

Stat it out and I'll take another look at it.

Milskidasith
2009-12-21, 11:04 AM
I posted stats to a playable beholder here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130603)....

Beholderkin, Explorer
Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8 (8hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10ft., Fly 20ft. (average)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 natural +1 dex +1 size)
Face/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
BaB/Grapple: +0/-6
Attack: Longsword +0 (1d8-2) or Bite -4 (1d4-2)
Full Attack: Longsword +0 (1d8+2) and Bite -4 (1d4-2)
Special Attack: Eye rays
Special Qualities: Flight
Saves: ?
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: ?
Skills: ?
Alignment: Usually neutral
CR: 1
LA: +1

A small-sized orb approaches you inquisitively, its large central eye regarding you with thought and curiousity. Above its main eye are a pair of smaller eyes, and below the main eye is a gaping maw, filled with teeth but kept closed unless it is speaking. Below that, mounted to the bottom of its sphere-like body, are a pair of humanoid arms and hands.

Explorer Beholderkin are not directly related to the true Beholders, but rather are strange spawn of unknown origin and purpose. Driven by curiousity, the Explorers have slowly started popping up in cities around the world.

Combat
Explorer Beholderkin rarely fight, but when they do, they use manufactured weapons in addition to their own bite attack.

Eye rays (sp): An explorer beholderkin has two eyes permenently situated above its central eye. These are somewhat unique compared to other Beholderkind, because their functions are not set. In youth, an explorer beholderkin is taught two cantrips - and these become the eye ray's effects. They may use each cantrip up to 3 times per day. The DC is charisma based.

Flight (ex): An explorer beholderkin's flight is naturally produced by gasses contained within its body.


Explorer Beholderkin as Player Races
Str -2, Dex +2, Int +2, Cha -2
Speed: 10ft., Fly 20ft. (average)
Flight (ex): As above
Eye rays (sp): As above
Bite: Explorer Beholderkin have a secondary bite attack dealing 1d4+str
Arms: Explorer Beholderkin have two human-like arms, which enable them to use weapons and items as a humanoid might.
Small-sized
Aberration type
LA +1

With average flight they have to be constantly moving, which just looks incredibly stupid in a mental picture. Plus, they're pretty weak for LA+1. Two cantrips? It has good stat mods, but... eh. Not sure what benefits the aberration type gives, though.

paddyfool
2009-12-21, 11:22 AM
Not sure what benefits the aberration type gives, though.

It's abusable with Alter Self, but any sane GM would give a straight "no" to that anyway. Also, it grants immunities to lots of effects that only target "humanoids".