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View Full Version : Antimatic Field vs No Spell Resistance?



Ashiel
2009-12-20, 07:02 PM
Hey everyone. I seem to remember someone mention that spells that don't allow spell resistance, such as the orb of spells being able to ignore antimagic fields. Is this true, and if so, can I get some info on where to find the ruling about it?

Thanks in advance.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:04 PM
The argument has nothing to do with spell resistance. It's about orbs being Conjuration (Creation) spells - the actual orb is non-magical, so shouldn't be supressed.

An AMF has no effect on a wall of iron, after all.

Myrmex
2009-12-20, 07:05 PM
"The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm


The orb spells are instantaneous conjurations.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:07 PM
"The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm


The orb spells are instantaneous conjurations.

It's funny, I've never seen that rule referenced in this argument.

It would be so much more airtight if someone would cite it.

Arakune
2009-12-20, 07:07 PM
The argument has nothing to do with spell resistance. It's about orbs being Conjuration (Creation) spells - the actual orb is non-magical, so shouldn't be supressed.

An AMF has no effect on a wall of iron, after all.

I remember people saying that spell line was made to go past an anti-magic field. Something about being too unfair against wizards to be completly obsolete in an AMF, specially blasters.

That's why they put the orb lines in the ... conjuration school? I got nothing.

Myrmex
2009-12-20, 07:09 PM
It's funny, I've never seen that rule referenced in this argument.

It would be so much more airtight if someone would cite it.

Nor have, so I decided to double check the AMF spell.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:09 PM
I remember people saying that spell line was made to go past an anti-magic field. Something about being too unfair against wizards to be completly obsolete in an AMF, specially blasters.

That's why they put the orb lines in the ... conjuration school? I got nothing.

Well, they wouldn't bypass the AMF if they were in any other school...

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 07:10 PM
The Orb spells are Conjuration because Evocation, much like melee, can't have nice things. Well, except force effects. And Contingency. But still, Conjuration gets everything.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:12 PM
The Orb spells are Conjuration because Evocation, much like melee, can't have nice things. Well, except force effects. And Contingency. But still, Conjuration gets everything.

And Miracle, but only if you have Arcane Disciple.

And even then, you can replicate all of Evocation's nice things with three levels of Shadowcraft Mage and a heightened Silent Image.

Gralamin
2009-12-20, 07:12 PM
It's about orbs being Conjuration (Creation) spells - the actual orb is non-magical, so shouldn't be supressed.
Why does the non-magical balls of fire deal more damage then fire then? :smallamused:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:14 PM
Why does the non-magical balls of fire deal more damage then fire then? :smallamused:

It's very hot fire drawn from the Elemental Plane of Fire. That stuff burns.

And maybe it's heavily compressed and thrown really hard.

Ashiel
2009-12-20, 07:18 PM
Thanks guys. I was checking under Antimagic in the SRD under special abilities and couldn't find anything. You guys answered so fast I got my answer before even turning to the antimagic field spell. Thanks a ton. :smallsmile:

Arakune
2009-12-20, 07:22 PM
Thanks guys. I was checking under Antimagic in the SRD under special abilities and couldn't find anything. You guys answered so fast I got my answer before even turning to the antimagic field spell. Thanks a ton. :smallsmile:

Try to get used to the playground :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 07:24 PM
It's very hot fire drawn from the Elemental Plane of Fire. That stuff burns.

And maybe it's heavily compressed and thrown really hard.

Shenanigans. Being on the Plane of Fire only does 3d10 points of fire damage per round. The only mundane heat-related effect that does more damage than an Orb of Fire I can find is total immersion in lava, for 20d6 per round. Which is total immersion, not a little ball of fire.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:25 PM
Shenanigans. Being on the Plane of Fire only does 3d10 points of fire damage per round. The only mundane heat-related effect that does more damage than an Orb of Fire I can find is total immersion in lava, for 20d6 per round. Which is total immersion, not a little ball of fire.

You must admit that the Elemental Plane of Fire deals more damage than mundane Prime Material fire.

Myrmex
2009-12-20, 07:31 PM
Why does the non-magical balls of fire deal more damage then fire then? :smallamused:

The real argument to make is that, while it is a non-magical ball of fire, it is not a non-magically propelled ball of fire.


The Orb spells are Conjuration because Evocation, much like melee, can't have nice things. Well, except force effects. And Contingency. But still, Conjuration gets everything.

Druids & Clerics get really, really awesome evocations.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 07:33 PM
Well, being on fire does 1d6 per round, but even when you're on fire it only covers so much of your body, and you can often still breathe. If there was some way to replicate the "Everything around you is made out of fire, including the air" aspects of the Plane of Fire on the Material, I believe it would have exactly the same effects as being on the Plane of Fire. In fact, one could argue that the Planar Breach line of spells does just this, though arguably it's overlaying one plane on top of another rather than transporting a surrounding layer of fire to the Prime Material.

EDIT:

Druids & Clerics get really, really awesome evocations.

But spell school doesn't matter nearly as much to them, so they're immune to the "Conjuration win! Evocation lose!" rule.

Myrmex
2009-12-20, 07:35 PM
Well, being on fire does 1d6 per round, but even when you're on fire it only covers so much of your body, and you can often still breathe. If there was some way to replicate the "Everything around you is made out of fire, including the air" aspects of the Plane of Fire on the Material, I believe it would have exactly the same effects as being on the Plane of Fire. In fact, one could argue that the Planar Breach line of spells does just this, though arguably it's overlaying one plane on top of another rather than transporting a surrounding layer of fire to the Prime Material.

EDIT:


But spell school doesn't matter nearly as much to them, so they're immune to the "Conjuration win! Evocation lose!" rule.

The plane of fire is just "Burning Hot." Burning Hot does 3d10/round to everyone. It's the hottest environmental effect covered by the rules (outside of being in lava, I guess). It's in Sandstorm.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:36 PM
A reality made entirely of fire is "Burning Hot". Appropriate.

erikun
2009-12-20, 07:37 PM
Compressed matter from the Elemental Plane of Sound? Even if it was, that doesn't explain how you can hold onto and throw a ball of sound without it dispersing without the use of magic. Then again, D&D kills enough catgirls, so perhaps I should just leave it alone.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:38 PM
Compressed matter from the Elemental Plane of Sound? Even if it was, that doesn't explain how you can hold onto and throw a ball of sound without it dispersing without the use of magic. Then again, D&D kills enough catgirls, so perhaps I should just leave it alone.

Sonic energy comes from the Elemental Plane of Earth, if Complete Psionic is to be believed.

I don't get it either.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-20, 07:39 PM
That makes my head hurt.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 07:39 PM
Eh? I thought acid was the Elemental Plane of Earth, and sonic was the Plane of Air. Which would make marginally more sense.

Myrmex
2009-12-20, 07:40 PM
That makes... no sense.

[edit]
@ Yuki

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:40 PM
No, Air is Electricity.

Cold is Water, appropriately.

Acid and Sonic are both Earth, says Complete Psionic.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 07:41 PM
Because the Plane of Earth gets all the nice things. :smallannoyed:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:43 PM
It gets the cute psionic elementals that use sonic energy to tunnel through solid rock, at least.

erikun
2009-12-20, 07:46 PM
Sonic energy comes from the Elemental Plane of Earth, if Complete Psionic is to be believed.

I don't get it either.
The worst part about this whole thing is that simply throwing a 20d6 rock at someone would make the most sense.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:48 PM
Surely Orb of Rock is the Sublime Chord's equivalent of Orb of Sound.

Oslecamo
2009-12-20, 07:48 PM
It actualy makes some sense, since waves travel a lot easier trough a solid hard enviroment than trough an empty enviroment. Earthquakes anyone?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-20, 07:49 PM
It makes more sense as part of the Plane of Air.

Since sound travels through air and all.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 07:50 PM
It makes more sense as part of the Plane of Air.

Since sound travels through air and all.

It travels better through solid materials than gaseous ones, actually.

That's why if you're in another room and someone plays music, it sounds like it's being played faster than normal even though it takes the same amount of time to be over.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 07:52 PM
Well, (extremely limited knowledge of physics: GO!), waves can propagate through any medium. And they propagate best through denser mediums, so water (liquid) and earth (solid) would be better than air for sonic if we're saying propagation speed is a qualifying criterion.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-20, 07:58 PM
It travels better through solid materials than gaseous ones, actually.

That's why if you're in another room and someone plays music, it sounds like it's being played faster than normal even though it takes the same amount of time to be over.
I know, it's just that when I hear the words "sonic attack" I think of something that goes through the air, not the ground.

jseah
2009-12-20, 07:58 PM
Compressed matter from the Elemental Plane of Sound? Even if it was, that doesn't explain how you can hold onto and throw a ball of sound without it dispersing without the use of magic. Then again, D&D kills enough catgirls, so perhaps I should just leave it alone.
It's possible. Phased arrays can generate tight beams of sound waves with little spillover on the sides.

Shoot a short pulse and poof, you've got your "packet" of sound.

Although, sound has a nasty tendency to not release it's energy properly. Shooting a high-amplitude high-frequency (and hence high-energy) sonic pulse on a tight beam at someone would cause cavitation in their bodies and kill them. But the power needed is high enough that the wave would simply GO THROUGH them as well.

And keep going for a pretty good distance until it disperses enough. Although scattering effects from hitting a person would reduce the beam's power by a lot, it'll still be mostly detectable.

erikun
2009-12-20, 08:00 PM
I've always considered Water to be the best "Elemental Plane of Sound" simply because aquatic creatures make the most common use of echolocation. Bats are the only terrestrial creature I know of that uses echolocation, although a large number of animals use it for communication, obviously.

Do we have a vote for sound coming from the Plane of Fire now? :smalltongue:

Myrmex
2009-12-20, 08:03 PM
Is sound simply a medium vibrating, or a medium that a human can detect vibrating? Or is sound the phenomena of experiencing that vibration?

jseah
2009-12-20, 08:09 PM
Google Define: Sound says:
mechanical vibrations transmitted by an elastic medium

So it's any medium and any vibration that involves moving.

chiasaur11
2009-12-20, 08:25 PM
I've always considered Water to be the best "Elemental Plane of Sound" simply because aquatic creatures make the most common use of echolocation. Bats are the only terrestrial creature I know of that uses echolocation, although a large number of animals use it for communication, obviously.

Do we have a vote for sound coming from the Plane of Fire now? :smalltongue:

AND Sonic weapons are used by underwater aliens in X-Com. It all ties together. Sort of.

Gralamin
2009-12-20, 10:51 PM
AND Sonic weapons are used by underwater aliens in X-Com. It all ties together. Sort of.

Are you suggesting the elemental plane of water is terror from the deep?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-20, 11:46 PM
Sonic comes from the Elemental Plane of Fire: Sound is generated via vibration. All vibration of matter is a result of heat, or creates heat. Thus, the most sound would be generated in hot places.

Where it travels best is irrelevant compared to what creates it.

Myrmex
2009-12-21, 05:12 AM
AND Sonic weapons are used by underwater aliens in X-Com. It all ties together. Sort of.

And by this one shrimp that snaps its claws together to shoot superheated bubbles at its prey. Seriously, this thing makes bubbles that are hotter than the sun. I think it's called the pistol shrimp.


Sonic comes from the Elemental Plane of Fire: Sound is generated via vibration. All vibration of matter is a result of heat, or creates heat. Thus, the most sound would be generated in hot places.

Where it travels best is irrelevant compared to what creates it.

Actually, the thing that causes noise in solids is a phonon. Heat is transferred by the phonon.

At least, that's what wikipedia tells me. I'm not much of a physics guy, though.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-21, 05:50 AM
And by this one shrimp that snaps its claws together to shoot superheated bubbles at its prey. Seriously, this thing makes bubbles that are hotter than the sun. I think it's called the pistol shrimp.


As it collapses, the cavitation bubble reaches temperatures of over 5,000 K (4,726.85 degrees Celsius).

No wonder people suggest plane shifting the Tarrasque to the plane of water!

2xMachina
2009-12-21, 05:53 AM
How wouldn't the shrimp cook itself?

SparkMandriller
2009-12-21, 05:56 AM
Some sort of shrimp magic, I guess.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-21, 05:58 AM
Actually, the thing that causes noise in solids is a phonon. Heat is transferred by the phonon.

At least, that's what wikipedia tells me. I'm not much of a physics guy, though.


Physics of sound
The mechanical vibrations that can be interpreted as sound are able to travel through all forms of matter: gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas. The matter that supports the sound is called the medium. Sound cannot travel through vacuum.


Heat is a form of energy possessed by a substance by virtue of the vibrational movement, i.e. kinetic energy, of its molecules or atoms.


Phonons are a quantum mechanical version of a special type of vibrational motion.

Phonons are a type of vibrational motion on the quantum level. As stated before, sound is transmitted by vibrational motion. Heat, when not being actively transferred from one medium to another, is stored as kinetic energy and potential energy. In insulators, it's done via phonon vibrations (which we now know isn't a THING, but a form of motion). In conductors, it's done primarily via electron flow (electricity). (Incidentally, heat is transferred via phonon vibration. This does not discredit that sound is; in fact, it reinforces a correllary.)

In liquids and gases, motion of the gases themselves results in convection. Again, motion = heat. Sound is motion.

Yes. I am a physics guy.

And yes, there is a direct correllary between heat and sound.

EDIT: And I'll have two buckets of dead catgirls to go, please.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-21, 06:35 AM
Electricity also has energy. Does electricity come from the Plane of Fire, too?

Killer Angel
2009-12-21, 06:44 AM
EDIT: And I'll have two buckets of dead catgirls to go, please.

It's so sad, to be ninjaed by the same poster I wanted to answer... :smalltongue:

Oh, well, there's a reason for the orb spells are overpowered.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-21, 06:47 AM
It's so sad, to be ninjaed by the same poster I wanted to answer... :smalltongue:

Oh, well, there's a reason for the orb spells are overpowered.

Hahah, overpowered?

No, compared to many spells there're still underpowered. It's just that most Evocation blasty spells are worse.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 07:50 AM
Sonic energy comes from the Elemental Plane of Earth, if Complete Psionic is to be believed.

I don't get it either.

But you just explained it: sound travels most easily through a solid medium. Earth is thus the best fit, besides an "elemental plane of sound" anyway.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-21, 07:59 AM
But you just explained it: sound travels most easily through a solid medium. Earth is thus the best fit, besides an "elemental plane of sound" anyway.

It makes scientific sense, but it doesn't make ideological or symbolic sense, which is what you'd expect the Planes to run on.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 08:07 AM
It makes scientific sense, but it doesn't make ideological or symbolic sense, which is what you'd expect the Planes to run on.

Doesn't it?

Ideologically, all the other elemental planes have an energy type associated with them - Fire has heat, Water has cold, and Air has electricity. Rocks don't count for Earth, as that is material (matter, in science) rather than energy. Thus, they get sonic.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-21, 08:12 AM
Doesn't it?

Ideologically, all the other elemental planes have an energy type associated with them - Fire has heat, Water has cold, and Air has electricity. Rocks don't count for Earth, as that is material (matter, in science) rather than energy. Thus, they get sonic.

But they also have Acid!

Which... makes even less sense, in all honesty!

Killer Angel
2009-12-21, 08:13 AM
Hahah, overpowered?

No, compared to many spells there're still underpowered. It's just that most Evocation blasty spells are worse.

In comparison to most of blasty spells, they are op. No save, no SR, conjuration spell, and all that jazz.
When you put in the equation the metamagic reducers, you'll have sudden maximized energysubstituted orb of quickendeath.
In comparison to other spells (all the polymorf types, for example), no, they're decisely not overpowered. But usually those are the spells that broke the system.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 08:16 AM
But they also have Acid!

Which... makes even less sense, in all honesty!

You got me there, Acid should be water... or... something.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-21, 08:25 AM
Water has a pH of 7 and is neutral.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 08:30 AM
Water has a pH of 7 and is neutral.

Pure water does, tap water is slightly acidic (due to the chlorine.)

But realistically, acid is matter rather than energy anyway, and all acid spells should be Conjuration.

(Yes, I know it's verisimilitude rather than realism... sue me :smalltongue:)

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-21, 08:54 AM
Water has a pH of 7 and is neutral.

This is never, ever true in nature.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-21, 09:24 AM
This is never, ever true in nature.

Water is never, ever pure in nature.

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-21, 09:27 AM
to be clear, you couldn't CAST the spell in an antimagic field, but the orb can be thrown INTO an anti magic field.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-21, 09:34 AM
Water is never, ever pure in nature.

Exactly.

In fact, only the most common isotope of hydrogen produces perfectly pH 7 water. Heavy water (that is, water composed mostly of deuterium and oxygen) is naturally very slightly alkaline (pH 7.5).

And in D&D, strongly alkaline substances deal acid damage. Not that heavy water is anywhere close to being potent enough to cause burns...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-21, 09:44 AM
And in D&D, strongly alkaline substances deal acid damage. Not that heavy water is anywhere close to being potent enough to cause burns...
It does restore hair though.

At least that was what Colonel Klink was lead to believe...

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 09:57 AM
It does restore hair though.

At least that was what Colonel Klink was lead to believe...

"I know no-seenk!!!"

...I think we went a bit afield. Getting back to the original issue:


Compressed matter from the Elemental Plane of Sound? Even if it was, that doesn't explain how you can hold onto and throw a ball of sound without it dispersing without the use of magic. Then again, D&D kills enough catgirls, so perhaps I should just leave it alone.

Here's how I explain orbs. They are non-sentient, highly volatile minor elementals, pulled from their respective plane and only able to follow one directive - suicidally charge the wizard's target.

This explains how they can stay together in an AMF (they are "called," and thus exist without magic), and why they require a ranged touch attack rather than an attack roll (because they are not actually "thrown," merely directed.) It further explains why they aren't able to do anything else. As far as I can tell, that should cover most flavor issues, right?

9mm
2009-12-21, 10:01 AM
Surely Orb of Rock is the Sublime Chord's equivalent of Orb of Sound.
... you have no idea: when it hits pyro explodes with the power-cord riff.

Myrmex
2009-12-21, 03:18 PM
In comparison to most of blasty spells, they are op. No save, no SR, conjuration spell, and all that jazz.
When you put in the equation the metamagic reducers, you'll have sudden maximized energysubstituted orb of quickendeath.
In comparison to other spells (all the polymorf types, for example), no, they're decisely not overpowered. But usually those are the spells that broke the system.

The real problem are the metamagic reducers. Without metamagic reducers, they're just blasty spells that occupy spell slots you could be doing better things with.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-21, 03:40 PM
Here's how I explain orbs. They are non-sentient, highly volatile minor elementals, pulled from their respective plane and only able to follow one directive - suicidally charge the wizard's target.

This explains how they can stay together in an AMF (they are "called," and thus exist without magic), and why they require a ranged touch attack rather than an attack roll (because they are not actually "thrown," merely directed.) It further explains why they aren't able to do anything else. As far as I can tell, that should cover most flavor issues, right?

A rather unique interpretation...I like it. Consider it yoinked.

lesser_minion
2009-12-21, 04:02 PM
There are a few exceptions, but a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance is either Range: Personal, something that doesn't affect its target directly, or a spell specifically crafted to pierce spell resistance in an unusual way.

SR:yes spells don't allow spell resistance in certain cases (such as a lightning bolt used to cause a cave-in). The Orb spells are just WotC using idiot logic to justify putting them in the same group.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 04:06 PM
A rather unique interpretation...I like it. Consider it yoinked.

I've been using it as my rationale for awhile, as it seemed to make sense, but haven't seen it anywhere else.

But yes, feel free to contribute to my nefarious schemes aid the spread of knowledge. :smallbiggrin:

erikun
2009-12-21, 04:24 PM
Here's how I explain orbs. They are non-sentient, highly volatile minor elementals, pulled from their respective plane and only able to follow one directive - suicidally charge the wizard's target.
Will the slaughter of innocent elementals never cease?! Such deaths and destruction, all for wizards who hold no objectives beyond minmaxing their blastiness?! :smallfurious: Such unnatural disruptions of the inner planes shall not be accepted!


... you have no idea: when it hits pyro explodes with the power-cord riff.
Oh lord, I just got that. :smalleek: I must be slow today.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 04:30 PM
Will the slaughter of innocent elementals never cease?! Such deaths and destruction, all for wizards who hold no objectives beyond minmaxing their blastiness?! :smallfurious: Such unnatural disruptions of the inner planes shall not be accepted!

PETE member, are you? :smalltongue:

(Anyway, I think I specified "non-sentient" in there...)