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Tequila Sunrise
2009-12-20, 08:32 PM
I've heard complaints from some DMs who don't like the parcel system, so I decided to spend a tedious half hour writing this. (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B13rBX1CAB0XODhhMTMxOGEtZGIxOS00OTNiL WExOTQtYjk2MmM3MzA1MTJh&hl=en)

Happy holidays, fellow DMs!

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-20, 08:34 PM
Now those are ugly numbers. I can see why Wizards didn't make a WBL chart now if those are the numbers they used.

At least end with fives, Wizards...

2009-12-20, 08:37 PM
I've heard complaints from some DMs who don't like the parcel system, so I decided to spend a tedious half hour writing this. (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B13rBX1CAB0XMGY1OGM3NjYtZDhjOS00OGRmL TkxZWYtMzgxM2JiMDJjZTEz&hl=en)

Happy holidays, fellow DMs!

Those are some seriously awful numbers! Thanks though. :smallsmile:

Yakk
2009-12-20, 09:05 PM
So, what method did you use to calculate that -- party of 5, 100% cash value, divided 5 ways?

Or did you use the 'advanced start' mechanism?

You'll note that this doesn't match what happens in a game. By level 10, much of the treasure you had at level 5 will have been sold or turned into residuum. And about 83% of your wealth (about 5/6) will not be in the form of items that the player purchased, but rather found (which may or may not be ideal for the character). If you "melt it down" to cash/residuum once (ie, you save up every ounce of treasure you ever got, never turn any of it to magic items, then melt down everything to make items at level X), you end up with about 1/3 of the 'accumulated value' in residuum.

Now, I don't know your methodology, so I am not sure if any of the above actually applies. So could I get your methodology?

RebelRogue
2009-12-20, 09:07 PM
But that's assuming the PCs spend no money on consumables, alchemy, ritual components, services etc.

Now, I don't know your methodology, so I am not sure if any of the above actually applies. So could I get your methodology?
Adding up treasure parcels by level and dividing by 5, I pressume.

Edit: Ah, it's unclear how magic items are accounted for...

tcrudisi
2009-12-20, 09:14 PM
But that's assuming the PCs spend no money on consumables, alchemy, ritual components, services etc.

Adding up treasure parcels by level and dividing by 5, I pressume.

Edit: Ah, it's unclear how magic items are accounted for...

From a quick test, as I was trying to figure out how he did it, it seems the OP added up the gp value and counted magic items as being worth 100% of their purchase value. Then he divided it by 5. Also, he added in the starting 100gp every character gets. Then it proceeded to be cumulative, so at level 2 he added in starting 100gp and the level 1 treasure values.

RebelRogue
2009-12-20, 09:27 PM
That means it's off by one level: the numbers are the expected wealth after the level has been "completed", i.e. all packages having been collected.

Edit: Anyway, allowing players to start with these amounts of gold would give them way more wealth than the usual guidelines!

Thajocoth
2009-12-20, 10:27 PM
I think that, part of the difficulty, is that item's worth doesn't scale directly to it's gp value... And the rules for creating a character who's not at level 1 are an estimation. At low levels, a new PC is a bit OP, while at later levels, they're a bit UP. (Compare, for one of the more extreme examples, a level 2 character who has a 4/5 chance of having a magic item of levels 2-5, and a bit of gp, with a level 2 character that has 360gp, all the mundane stuff they want for free, 3 magic items (levels 1, 2 & 3) and 360gp. The first played through level 1 and just reached level 2. The second just started at 2.)

Then, there balance of who gets what is never even... It's all too easy for one player to have half the party's magic items, with gp still being split evenly.

Wealth by level is really an impossible task here, because it fluctuates too much.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-12-20, 10:53 PM
Now, I don't know your methodology, so I am not sure if any of the above actually applies. So could I get your methodology?
Assumption 1: Half of each level's monetary parcel is converted into an item with a level equal to the PC. This way each PC gets an item at each and every level, with level +2 being the average.

Assumption 2: A PC will sell three items (a weapon/implement, an armor and a neck item) per sub-tier, resulting in a loss of 80% of those items' value. (This might be a little generous, especially by epic levels. I'm open to suggestions.)

Assumption 3: There are 31+ level items for 27+ level PCs. Writing this WBL chart has actually gotten me interested in writing them.

Methodology:

1. For each level, I added together the value of an item two levels higher than the PC and the sell value of an item of the PC's level. Yes, I added the 100 gp for first level, just to be extra anal. :smallbiggrin:

2. At levels 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, 24, 25, 26, 29 and 30 I subtracted 4/5 the value of an item one less than the PC's level, to reflect selling off enhancement bonus items as the PC finds better ones.

That means it's off by one level: the numbers are the expected wealth after the level has been "completed", i.e. all packages having been collected.
Ya know, my brain is fried and my eyes are bugging out...but I think you're right. Would someone else confirm?

Gralamin
2009-12-20, 11:09 PM
Ya know, my brain is fried and my eyes are bugging out...but I think you're right. Would someone else confirm?
Seems to be. I wrote up a similar chart once. Let me check.
{table]Level|WBL
1|100
2|852
3|1,924
4|3,443
5|5,539
6|8,339
7|12,099
8|17,459
9|25,059
10|35,539
11|49,539
12|68,339
13|95,139
14|133,139
15|185,539
16|255,539
17|349,539
18|483,539
19|673,539
20|935,539
21|1,285,539
22|1,755,539
23|2,425,539
24|3,375,539
25|4,685,539
26|6,435,539
27|8,785,539
28|11,635,539
29|14,885,539
30|18,435,539[/table]
Are my numbers. This was based on a similar system (Specifically: Adding up the purchase price of all the previous levels of items, without taking into account selling old items. Use a group of 5 PCs, assume all packages were handed out, average.) So these aren't exact either.

FoE
2009-12-20, 11:16 PM
What sort of madman doesn't like the treasure parcel system?

ericgrau
2009-12-20, 11:18 PM
Rounding is your friend. As said, you'll want to take away a percentage for damage or consumables anyway.

Gralamin
2009-12-20, 11:25 PM
Rounding is your friend. As said, you'll want to take away a percentage for damage or consumables anyway.

Very true. With some Arbitrary rounding, you can get something reasonably close like this:
{table]Level|Wealth
1|100
2|800
3|1,500
4|2,750
5|4,000
6|6,000
7|9,250
8|14,000
9|17,500
10|25,000
11|35,000
12|50,000
13|70,000
14|100,000
15|130,000
16|190,000
17|250,000
18|350,000
19|525,000
20|700,000
21|950,000
22|1,300,000
23|1,900,000
24|2,500,000
25|3,500,000
26|4,500,000
27|6,500,000
28|9,500,000
29|13,000,000
30|17,500,000[/table]
Which is a lot easier to use.

RebelRogue
2009-12-20, 11:37 PM
But why go through all that trouble (except for the geeky fun of arithmetic, of course)? If you do not like the 'three magic items at level n-1, n, n+1 and gold corresponding to the price of n-1' at char creation, just use the collective value of those items and let the player buy what he/she wants instead.

Artanis
2009-12-20, 11:39 PM
...what, exactly, is this for, anyways? Is it to replace the parcel system? Or how to pick equipment when starting at level 2+? Or what? :smallconfused:

Tequila Sunrise
2009-12-21, 12:02 AM
...what, exactly, is this for, anyways? Is it to replace the parcel system? Or how to pick equipment when starting at level 2+? Or what? :smallconfused:
You'll have to ask one of the posters who doesn't like the parcel system.

I'm not here to judge, just to spread the Christmas/Chanukah/Kwanzaa joy. :smallbiggrin:

Artanis
2009-12-21, 12:06 AM
But I mean, what is it supposed to be measuring? How much money you should have at a given level? Because it'll take me all of ten seconds to do all thirty levels based on RebelRogue's idea.

Reluctance
2009-12-21, 12:23 AM
I think the big difference is that WBL encouraged the DM to adjust treasure if the party over/undershot, while the parcel system just says "here's your stuff". To a certain sort of player, that implies that every expenditure on rituals, consumables or RP is "wasting" Optimal Total Character Gold.

Not something I notice at the table for several reasons, but it's easily a place I could see a theoretical optimizer's mind going.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-12-21, 10:53 AM
But I mean, what is it supposed to be measuring? How much money you should have at a given level? Because it'll take me all of ten seconds to do all thirty levels based on RebelRogue's idea.
WBL gives a slightly more accurate picture of what you would have at a given level, had you actually leveled your character up to that point by adventuring. How much you value that extra accuracy is a matter of taste, of course.

I think the big difference is that WBL encouraged the DM to adjust treasure if the party over/undershot, while the parcel system just says "here's your stuff". To a certain sort of player, that implies that every expenditure on rituals, consumables or RP is "wasting" Optimal Total Character Gold.
That's what I've heard from a few posters too. Although the text surrounding WBL is a bit vague in 3e, it can easily be interpreted as 'If a player makes poor purchase choices, don't make them suffer the consequences for more than a level.' So because that's how it works with many DMs in 3e, some people associate this with WBL.

A DM can compensate for poor purchase decisions just as easily using the parcel system though, so I'm not sure what the hubaloo is.

Artanis
2009-12-21, 02:26 PM
WBL gives a slightly more accurate picture of what you would have at a given level, had you actually leveled your character up to that point by adventuring. How much you value that extra accuracy is a matter of taste, of course.

Like you, I don't really see what the big deal is. I also don't really see the use of the tables in this thread, frankly, because there's so many assumptions that go into them. They assume how many consumables are used, how much is spent on rituals, when and how many items are sold, and even how many members there are in the party. No matter how hard somebody tries, all they're going to get is thirty numbers, nothing more.

I choose to make just one assumption: that the designers decided on the starting gear for a given level, then based the parcel system on winding up somewhere around there. Like people who try to add up and assume every player decision, I wind up with thirty numbers that are just as accurate or inaccurate. Mine, however, are a hell of a lot easier to figure up.

Actually, I'm just gonna add mine up and see how they compare to the two tables.