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quiet1mi
2009-12-20, 08:39 PM
I am currently playing a level 11 beguiler.

I have specialized in Enchantments and took up darkstalker to give me an edge in the stealth vs perception race.

I realize that I am a support character, but I also realize I play havoc with how to write encounters. All of my abilities are save or lose/suck so if my enemies have too high of saves, all I could do is haste the party and sit on my hands...

I have tried using illusions and battlefield control during combat but it seems it annoys my friends or slows down combat as the Dm tends to send only 1 strong guy after us.

(typically an ECL of our party +4, so a level 10 party can expect to fight a level 12 cleric and 2 dread wraiths or a single level 14 cleric...)

I was wondering, besides buffing the party with Haste and Greater Invisibility, is there anything I could do if I was fighting a single opponent with a lot of saves...

So far I have been using legion of sentinels to lay down the hurt if the BBEG provokes an attack of opportunity.

So am I stuck to being the Heal bot with a wand of Cure light Wounds? Or is there something else I could do?

Ernir
2009-12-20, 08:50 PM
Buying more interesting wands and scrolls would be a start. :smalltongue:

But yeah, if your friends don't like illusions on the battlefield, I don't envy your position. :smallfrown:

Draz74
2009-12-20, 08:52 PM
If nothing else, there's always UMD and wands. Ray of Enfeeblement/Clumsiness/Stupidity, for example ...

GreyVulpine
2009-12-20, 08:56 PM
Your strengths lie in buffing, yes. You've got haste and invisibility, as well as blur/displacement.

You don't want to be in melee, but with greater mirror image as an immediate cast, you don't have to worry too much about actually being hit.

The majority of your spells lie in mind-affecting and battlefield control.

At this level, you should have rainbow pattern, which fascinates up to 24HD worth of monsters. You can combine fog cloud (5ft/rnd movement inside, total concealment from 5ft onwards) with glitterdust to render an enemy unable to target your party, while your party can target them with ranged attacks with no penalty.

Against spellcasters, you can cast silence on a rock and ready an action to throw it at their square when they appear to cast.

Have you picked out additional spells as per "Advanced Learning" for your 3rd/7th/11th levels?

Thurbane
2009-12-20, 09:20 PM
People tend to focus too much on the Beguiler's Enchantment/Illusion attacking spells. He has plenty of other spells, as noted, to throw around. Haste and Displacement as buffs, Solid Fog and Legion of Sentinels as area control, and many more.

And there's a lot of love in the MIC that doesn't even need UMD - Eternal Wands, Raiment of the Four, Robe of Mysterious Conjuration...

Advanced Learning: grab Ray of Dizziness - unless the foe has good SR, immunity to mind effects or insanely high touch AC, he's down to 1 action/round.

Draz74
2009-12-20, 10:00 PM
Raiment of the Four,

Oooh, good point. Beguilers are prime candidates to pick up this item set, a Runestaff, and whatever other items in MIC allow them to sacrifice spell slots to power the casting of another spell.

Riffington
2009-12-20, 10:01 PM
There's a lot you can do without illusions. But fundamentally, if your group isn't really excited about trickeration, then you should probably reroll a different character. Sure, you can contribute to combat by other means, but if you're flinging slows while secretly wishing you were allowed to be tricking the enemy into slaying his own men... you'll be hollow and empty inside.

imperialspectre
2009-12-20, 10:28 PM
Shadowcraft Mage. Turn your illusions into blasts or summons. Have fun.

quiet1mi
2009-12-21, 02:12 AM
There's a lot you can do without illusions. But fundamentally, if your group isn't really excited about trickeration, then you should probably reroll a different character. Sure, you can contribute to combat by other means, but if you're flinging slows while secretly wishing you were allowed to be tricking the enemy into slaying his own men... you'll be hollow and empty inside.

Sigh... they mostly complain on how much time it takes for me to explain clearly what I am doing... For my DM, it is not his fault, things have to be described specifically if I want to get the desired effect.

Lately I have ben collecting a lot of various things to use in a MacGyver fashion...

Wands seem like an interesting idea, as for my advanced learning I picked up Ray of Stupidity and "Magic Aura" (The thing that scrubs auras so I do not show up to detect magic effects)

Re-rolling seems enticing but I know that without my help in what I useally do (provide a high spot/listen check, invisibility/silence, haste/slow, Legions of sentinels, Spiderwalk) They would have a tough time in encounters... Another sword swinger would not provide the extra advantage that puts us over the top quite like a beguiler...

With 10 Con I am very fragile (:Read: 41HP at level 11), so I rely on my +22 to hide and move silently without applying dice rolls or invisibility... Dark Stalker helps but then I am confronted with scenarios with no cover,concealment and people with devil's sight or see invisibility...

I have tried using illusions to mimic the conjuration of walls to create concealment but my Dm gives his NPCs a free will save to disbelief or a spellcraft check to recognize the spell as an illusion and thus instantly disbelieve it... I will point him to the all about illusions page on the wizards website that explains disbelief.


Skill wise, I thought about spending my 8 skill points this level on some knowledge skills (Had to errata them out after accidently applying headband of Int to skill points) Normally I get 12 but I need to spend 4 on my hide, move silently, Listen and spot...

I have plenty of ranks in spellcraft so I thought for my 12th level feat I would take Improved Counterspell, This way I have an extra option when we face a single caster... (I also do not need to rely on caster level checks where I am at the disadvantage because I am trying to counter someone 2-4 levels higher than me:smalleek:)

Myrmex
2009-12-21, 05:05 AM
rainbow pattern, which fascinates up to 24HD worth of monsters.

Not a very useful combat spell, given the rules on fascinated creatures.

Fishy
2009-12-21, 05:37 AM
There's the Unsettling Enchantment feat, which combos well with Distract Assailant if you picked it up from your first Advanced Learning. Burn your 1st level slots as swift actions for a no-save debuff that's useful to have but not harsh enough for the DM to throw books at you.

[Mind Affecting] SoLs can be really, really annoying for DMs, and it's rather trivial for them to punish you for it if they feel vengeful. So... throw out the buffs and learn to love Whelm, I guess.

AslanCross
2009-12-21, 07:53 AM
Agreed on the Beguiler's battlefield control. Solid Fog, Legion of Sentinels, Confusion, Crushing Despair, etc---the beguiler has got a very good spell list.

No idea why your teammates don't like having illusions around, though. :smallconfused:

Gnaeus
2009-12-21, 09:09 AM
Sigh... they mostly complain on how much time it takes for me to explain clearly what I am doing... For my DM, it is not his fault, things have to be described specifically if I want to get the desired effect.

I have tried using illusions to mimic the conjuration of walls to create concealment but my Dm gives his NPCs a free will save to disbelief or a spellcraft check to recognize the spell as an illusion and thus instantly disbelieve it... I will point him to the all about illusions page on the wizards website that explains disbelief.

You're screwed. Illusions and enchantments only work if your DM is fair to them. Yours isn't. If he is giving free will saves against wall illusions, anything else is going to be disbelieved automatically. If he twists your words with all enchantments so that they never work, they just won't work. Reroll a Dread Necro, or a specialist wizard with Enchantment and Illusion as prohibited schools. Save the beguiler love for a different DM.

quiet1mi
2009-12-21, 06:22 PM
My Dm also came from 2nd Edition and is still getting over the rules changes... Do you think it has anything to do with that?

I heard 2nd edition brought the DM vs party mindset to the table. I think he may not be fair to Illusions merely because he is...


Stuck in the 2nd Edtion mindset
Is sitill thinking in terms of 2nd edition
Does not want me to defeat encounters by the creative use of illusion.
Does not want his encounters to end with 10 of his bad guys failing a DC: 24 Will save or a BBEG failing a DC 25 will save (29 if he is a arcane caster)


I think it goes back to the arms race... If a character has the ability to hit 95% of the time and the damage out put will kill the target 100% of the time... You change it till it is about 60% hit chance and the target has so many hit points that it takes more than one swing...

With this in mind, should I go to my Dm and ask to redo my character sheet so I am not min/max to be...

Stealthy to the point where nothing can find me unless it has a spot check of at least +27 and even then it is just a D20 roll off...
Dibilitating to the point where only a character of a will save of +15 will save against something like dominate person or feebleminded about 50% of the time...
So little Hp to where if anything, does find me, I will Die in a few rounds...
So little other offensive options that do not require a will save or battlefield control


Another option is to change the way encounters are done. If there were an extra 10 badguys in each fight, it would not be a problem if my hold person took out 8-9 of them...

Currently I do respect and understand that my DM plays the opposition an intelligent fashion... If I throw high Will DCs the opposition to us will stop using minions that are susceptible to that in favor to minions that are out right immune (average intelligent undead/vermin) or resistant to it (Clerics)...

And I know that we are level 10-11 so he can take kid gloves off, but if I build my character to do a few things like be stealthy and take bad guys out of the fight, how often should I expect to succeed at that... 50%? 60%? 95%?

AslanCross
2009-12-21, 08:57 PM
Ugh. If your DM doesn't want you do defeat his encounters with clever illusions, that really, really sucks. Use illusions that don't require will saves, then---Glamers, definitely.

I always encourage my players to find creative solutions---unfortunately, they prefer hacking everything into tiny, tiny pieces, which does work. :P Just that it sometimes gets tiring.