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jiriku
2009-12-20, 09:49 PM
Fellow playgrounders, I need help with a rules interpretation!

My players are currently in a battle on the 4th floor of a multi-story tenement structure. The druid wants to cast ice storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/iceStorm.htm), and has asked what the likely effect would be.

The description of ice storm states:

Area: Cylinder (20-ft. radius, 40 ft. high)
"Great magical hailstones pound down...."

The SRD states that when aiming a cylindrical area spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area):

When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area. (emphasis mine)

Now, what happens here? My interpretation is that he can affect the current room by targeting a point near the ceiling. The circle describing the top of the cylinder will be centered on the point, and hailstones will pound down from there.

However, the cylinder is 40 feet tall, and he's on the fourth floor of a tenement. The SRD states that spells with cylindrical areas fill the entire volume of their area, ignoring obstructions. One could imagine that magical falling hailstones are created all throughout the volume, meaning that he'll be bludgeoning and freezing to death everyone not just on the fourth floor, but on the three floors below as well. What do you think?

An alternative interpretation is that the hailstones are created at the top of the area and impact the floor and stop. Although, ice storm deals physical damage to everything in the area, right? The construction of the tenement is wooden, and the floors are flimsy. Could the ice storm potentially collapse all of the interior floors? (shudder)

Tyndmyr
2009-12-20, 09:55 PM
My interpretation is that it fills the cylinder. Yes...this means it must be used carefully to avoid collateral damage.

I'd probably do the "are you sure" line....and if that is exactly what they want to do, start working with a collapsing building/falling damage, etc. Could be an interesting twist to a fight, actually.

hewhosaysfish
2009-12-21, 11:15 AM
Just looking at fireball for a precedent:


If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

...would seem to support the idea that the hailstones could smash through the floor.
Also it would be fun* and make the battle more interesting*.


*i.e chaos, confusion and destruction.

Thurbane
2009-12-21, 12:35 PM
Kinda offtopic, but our party has a Druid who often mistakes radius and diameter. We've been caught in his Flame Strike more than once. :smalltongue:

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-21, 12:40 PM
People, floors, walls. if it's in the spell's area, it's gonna take a hit. Pray you miss any load bearing walls :smallamused:

Woodsman
2009-12-21, 12:40 PM
Kinda offtopic, but our party has a Druid who often mistakes radius and diameter. We've been caught in his Flame Strike more than once. :smalltongue:

Invest in a dictionary. Or a math book.

ericgrau
2009-12-21, 12:47 PM
The rule does seem to say that, but as the spell moves downward from a circle, I think the intent is that 2 dimensional obstructions don't affect it. 3D ones do unless destroyed.

Your standard wooden floor has hardness 5 and maybe 5-7 HP. Far more for the floor railings, which are virtually unaffected. Cold does only 1/4 damage to objects, so you're looking at 3d6 + 1/2 d6. The spell barely cracks the floor, doesn't affect the ceiling of the floor below and you can still stand on the railings (with a foot on each of two, for balance). The railings may be 1x12's on edge, with maybe 1 every couple feet.

Lysander
2009-12-21, 01:08 PM
It ignores obstructions but it still needs line of effect:


A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

So the spell would not affect lower floors, unless it smashed through. But can ice storm actually damage the floor? The spell never actually says it can damage objects:


Great magical hailstones pound down for 1 full round, dealing 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage to every creature in the area.

Compare that to fireball or lightning bolt which specifically states it can damage objects, or flamestrike which only mentions damage not targets. Not hurting objects might seem silly, but you aren't summoning real hail, just magical hail that vanishes at the end of the spell. It might be deliberate that it can only touch creatures.

Even if it can damage objects and barriers (which you'll have to decide on one way or another) wood has hardness 5 and 10hp/inch. A floor would have to be several inches thick at least. Cold only deals 25% as much damage to objects. (3d6 + (2d4/4) -5) damage probably can't break through even a relatively flimsy wooden floor.

Erom
2009-12-21, 01:29 PM
A floor would have to be several inches thick at least.
Most floors are about an inch thick in terms of solid material - most of that ~foot thick layer between the floor of one room and the ceiling of the next down is empty space or insulation (which is basically soft foamy stuff - no real structural strength), assuming of course you don't hit a beam (which would be solid material). Ericgrau's analysis seems very reasonable - if you rule the spell can destroy objects it seems like it has maybe a 50-50 chance of breaking through one floor, is very unlikely to break through two, and would leave behind the beams on the floors it did break, meaning you would probably not fall through (balance checks?).

Another_Poet
2009-12-21, 01:44 PM
The SRD states that spells with cylindrical areas fill the entire volume of their area, ignoring obstructions. One could imagine that magical falling hailstones are created all throughout the volume, meaning that he'll be bludgeoning and freezing to death everyone not just on the fourth floor, but on the three floors below as well. What do you think?

^ This is correct.



An alternative interpretation is that the hailstones are created at the top of the area and impact the floor and stop.

^ This is incorrect.


Although, ice storm deals physical damage to everything in the area, right? The construction of the tenement is wooden, and the floors are flimsy. Could the ice storm potentially collapse all of the interior floors? (shudder)

It could but as I recall objects take half damage or less against cold and also apply their hardness against it. They also apply their hardness against bludgeoning damage. Each square of the floor applies hardness to the damage it takes so it's not like you can add up all the damage over all the squares to get past the hardness.

In general, a wooden structure is not going to be rent sunder by a few rounds of heavy hail. If it was that week it would collapse during day-to-say use as children run around pounding their feet on the floor, couple get the beds a-rocking or someone drops a heavy stew kettle by accident. Sure there will be dents in the floor and some frightening creaking noises but that's about it. If you work out the damage per square and figure in all the special circumstances of attacking an object you'll probably find it does zero or very little damage and comes nowhere near ripping through the floor. So it's better to just handwave it and say the structure stands without bothering to add up the damage.

ap

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-21, 02:04 PM
Errr without LoE, it won't penetrate the floor. It can't damage objects, either :/

Moriato
2009-12-21, 02:15 PM
^ This is correct.
In general, a wooden structure is not going to be rent sunder by a few rounds of heavy hail. If it was that week it would collapse during day-to-say use as children run around pounding their feet on the floor, couple get the beds a-rocking or someone drops a heavy stew kettle by accident. Sure there will be dents in the floor and some frightening creaking noises but that's about it. If you work out the damage per square and figure in all the special circumstances of attacking an object you'll probably find it does zero or very little damage and comes nowhere near ripping through the floor. So it's better to just handwave it and say the structure stands without bothering to add up the damage.

ap

Ice storm is a bit more than "heavy hail". It's hail that does enough damage to pretty much instantly kill any 1st-level (or even most 2nd or 3rd, really) commoner who was unlucky enough to be caught in it.

Rediculously-enormous-instant-death-hail would be more accurate, and I can certainly imagine it doing significant damage to a wooden building.

Nich_Critic
2009-12-21, 05:51 PM
That would be the cold damage as well, though, not the pure bludgeoning

Teddy
2009-12-21, 06:28 PM
To quote SRD (emphasis mine):

When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.

A cylinder shaped spell fills a cylinder, so it does have an bottom end. If solid matter doesn't stop the spell from pelting the area below, you would actually get lethal hail flying upwards from the ground on the other side of an eventual planet (in the case there are planets), which makes it possible to safely make your enemies hideouts hell on earth only with some fine-tuned navigation and some scryings. If you've designed a tower where the floor is flimsy enough to burn through with merely a single fireball spell or pelt apart with an ice storm, well, then you should be ready to handle any situation where it does happen. And yes, there would most likely be some floor elements surviving the hail.

ericgrau
2009-12-21, 08:03 PM
That is what I assumed. Damage estimates are in my post above.



So the spell would not affect lower floors, unless it smashed through. But can ice storm actually damage the floor? The spell never actually says it can damage objects:
That is the default, I believe. This isn't 4e or a video game. Or just check the rules on damaging objects. Spell energy types are included.

As it is cold only does 1/4 damage, so most of the damage is from bludgeoning. This is barely enough to break a 1/2"-3/4" thick wooden floor, considering both HP and hardness: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-21, 08:59 PM
I wasn't under the impression that spells cared about hardness.

Woodsman
2009-12-21, 09:03 PM
I wasn't under the impression that spells cared about hardness.

Nope, cold damage is divided by four, and then hardness is taken into account.

SRD says so (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#energyAttacks)

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-21, 09:08 PM
Nope, cold damage is divided by four, and then hardness is taken into account.

SRD says so (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#energyAttacks)

Huh. So sonic and acid ignore hardness, but the rest don't. Neat.

Thurbane
2009-12-21, 09:10 PM
Invest in a dictionary. Or a math book.
Funny thing is he is a really intelligent guy (works in IT), but he just seems to have a mental bind spot for these two terms. :smalltongue:

Woodsman
2009-12-21, 09:13 PM
Funny thing is he is a really intelligent guy (works in IT), but he just seems to have a mental bind spot for these two terms. :smalltongue:

Eh, I was never strong in geometry either. Just make sure the rest of your party has high saves.

Haven
2009-12-21, 09:16 PM
Kinda offtopic, but our party has a Druid who often mistakes radius and diameter. We've been caught in his Flame Strike more than once. :smalltongue:

Heh, reminds me of V in OtOoPCs.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-21, 09:41 PM
Huh. So sonic and acid ignore hardness, but the rest don't. Neat.
No, none of these things ignore hardness. It's just sonic and acid aren't reduced before you subtract the hardness. Hardness for objects is just like DR for people.

Lysander
2009-12-21, 11:03 PM
So I think the consensus is that the hail would shoot down from the ceiling but stop on that floor because it has no real chance of breaking through to lower levels.