Prestige Class Balancing (3.5)

[Schylerwalker]

Now, we all know that some prestige classes suck the ole hairy root and some are completely and utterly insane. People pull a face when they think of the Green Star Adept, and go into ecstatic conniptions at the briefest mention of such classes as the Initiative of the Seven Fold Veil. Then there's classes such as the Fatespinner; good, very good even, but not enough to go ALL the way.

So, I have two proposals; one, create a tier ranking system (If there isn't one already) for prestige classes (Starting with Core, then going to the Complete Series, then branching out; there's hundreds of PrC's out there, people!).

Second, think of ways to advance those same classes up, so that they're all at least three or four, though tier twoabouts would be preferable.

For example, blackguard is a decent class (Especially for fallen paladins), but highly annoying to qualify for. What if you gave it spellcasting progression as opposed to wimpy blackguard spells? Say, one-half or one-third spellcasting progression. That would make cleric think twice before skipping over it.

Bumping up the eldritch knight's Hit Dice and giving it full casting progression would make it a highly sought-after class, and giving the mystic theurge some actual FLAVOR and interesting abilities, as opposed to "you get better at casting divine and arcane magic, but not quite as well as someone who focused in one or the other. Go cry in your corner." You see my idea.

tl; dr?

Create a ranking system for certain PrC's and try to make the lower ranking classes more desirable.

[deuxhero]

There is a PRC tier system, they are ranked on how taking the class effects your tier.

Blackguard's real issue is the inanae requirment of hide ranks when the class uses heavy armor and no logical entry has it as a class skill and requiring 2 worthless feats. Make the requirment intimidate ranks and make the feat choices something like "3 [fighter] feats" and it is easy to enter from both fighter and barbarian and (if upon falling you could trade diplomacy ranks for intimidate ones) a fallen Paladin might actually qualify for it (I'd pay no attention to a Paladin taking mounted combat, spirited charge and power attack with some diplomacy and know religon ranks, however I'd question any Paladin who took cleave and imroved sunder and ranks in hide.).

[Mushroom Ninja]

So, I have two proposals; one, create a tier ranking system (If there isn't one already) for prestige classes (Starting with Core, then going to the Complete Series, then branching out; there's hundreds of PrC's out there, people!).


It's been done (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)

[HCL]

There is a PRC tier system, they are ranked on how taking the class effects your tier.

Blackguard's real issue is the inanae requirment of hide ranks when the class uses heavy armor and no logical entry has it as a class skill and requiring 2 worthless feats. Make the requirment intimidate ranks and make the feat choices something like "3 [fighter] feats" and it is easy to enter from both fighter and barbarian and (if upon falling you could trade diplomacy ranks for intimidate ones) a fallen Paladin might actually qualify for it (I'd pay no attention to a Paladin taking mounted combat, spirited charge and power attack with some diplomacy and know religon ranks, however I'd question any Paladin who took cleave and imroved sunder and ranks in hide.).

The blackguard is a fine class. Hide ranks may seem silly with heavy armor, but it has sneak attack progression.

[erikun]

So, I have two proposals; one, create a tier ranking system (If there isn't one already) for prestige classes (Starting with Core, then going to the Complete Series, then branching out; there's hundreds of PrC's out there, people!).
done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618) (several other times, actually)

Note that this is a +2 to -2 system, and depends greatly on the base class. A Wizard/Incantrix will be better than a Sorcerer/Incantrix, while a Soulknife/Soulbow still isn't as good as a Wizard/Effigy Master.


Second, think of ways to advance those same classes up, so that they're all at least three or four, though tier twoabouts would be preferable.
This would first require re-writing how the common "prestige tier" system works. (see above)

Second, changing silly entry requirements and fixing broken prestige classes is a good idea. However, sometimes the problem is more the base class than the prestige class. How are you going to balance a Wizard/Divine Oracle without nerfing a Favored Soul/Divine Oracle?

[sonofzeal]

As the person who made the (only, AFAIK) PrC ranking system.... :smallcool:


My recommendation would be to either limit access based on original tier and what the "goal tier" of your game is, or houserule the shift yourself accordingly. For example, under the first approach you might limit Tier 1 to Equal or lower while allowing Tiers 2-3 access to Up One, and tiers 4-5 access to Up Two. Or, if a Tier 1 wanted access to an Up Two PrC, like a Wizard heading into Incantrix, you might houserule the PrC to make it weaker, often by removing caster levels as necessary.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Are we sure the OP didn't see the work done at BG? Option 1 sounds very, very close.

Option 2, while vague seems to be what I proposed for the PrC tier system when the optimization community was hashing this out: consider the PrC as an average of the entries and then compare raw power like the base class tier system. But alas I was ignored. Its totally okay though. Each system is a rather arbitrary rubic. I help out tones (and just did a bunch of work on the original tier system today too)

[Sinfire Titan]

As the person who made the (only, AFAIK) PrC ranking system.... :smallcool:


My recommendation would be to either limit access based on original tier and what the "goal tier" of your game is, or houserule the shift yourself accordingly. For example, under the first approach you might limit Tier 1 to Equal or lower while allowing Tiers 2-3 access to Up One, and tiers 4-5 access to Up Two. Or, if a Tier 1 wanted access to an Up Two PrC, like a Wizard heading into Incantrix, you might houserule the PrC to make it weaker, often by removing caster levels as necessary.

And always keep a few sliders just in case the Wizard starts hitting the curves too often for your taste.


A lot of people who play online ask for a build stub before they allow a player to join. IRL, this doesn't happen as often unless someone in the group is a serious optimizer who plans out everything they need to be successful. Ask your players for a 20 level build projection, and then do a little math.

What we really need is a Tier system for Build Design. The closest we have is levels of optimization (0-5, 5 being the worst case and 0 being Pun-Pun), but it doesn't give specific builds (because there's so many).

[Surgo]

What we really need is a Tier system for Build Design.
I don't think it's possible beyond what's already done, given the large number of variables involved.

What I did for my wiki was have "balance levels", four of them, each of which corresponds to some WotC-published item. They say, loosely, that "if this item is in your game already, this item presented here shouldn't unbalance your game". Works pretty well for classes, prestige classes, and feats.

[Choco]

When it comes to full caster PrC's, take a leaf out of the Psionic PrC's book and make it so no PrC's give full caster progression. The more powerful the PrC, the more caster levels will be lost. That should fix quite a bit of abuse on the high end.

[sonofzeal]

Option 2, while vague seems to be what I proposed for the PrC tier system when the optimization community was hashing this out: consider the PrC as an average of the entries and then compare raw power like the base class tier system. But alas I was ignored. Its totally okay though. Each system is a rather arbitrary rubic. I help out tones (and just did a bunch of work on the original tier system today too)
The problem is number of options, and how to actually measure stuff. My solution was more or less just to abstract the whole process, to prevent it from getting ridiculous.

I mean, take "Rainbow Servant". How powerful is it for a Wizard? For a Sorcerer? For a Bard? For a Warmage? We've got classes in four different tiers (multiple classes in some of those tiers) that can access the thing, and they all profit to different degrees.

Personally, I think a quantified, rigorous system is not practical, as much as I'd like it to be. Much easier to rank them from "amazing" to "good" to "neutral" to "bad" to "horrible". The categories are poorly defined, but that's a necessary result of trying to rate Wizard PrCs and Samurai PrCs on the same scale.

You do help out tones though, and I didn't mean to ignore your advise. I just didn't see a way to implement it. Thanks for the help!