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SouthpawHare
2009-12-21, 11:12 AM
Hi guys. I've recently been struck by curiosity regarding something that I've been researching on the forums recently.

(Talking about 3.5, btw)

In regards to creating an optimal wizard, it seems that it is generally agreed upon that evocation is a lame an expendable school, and that enchantment isn't far behind it. If you were going to be a specialist wizard, then ideally those would be the schools to get rid of. However, I am not entirely sold on this idea. No, I'm not going to be claiming that Fireball is the greatest spell ever... In fact, I speak from a viewpoint of experience in which I rarely have the opportunity to see fireball at all.

For better or worse, I have played almost exclusively in low-level campaigns. It's not that we do this intentionally, just that my groups have been uncommitted in the past. As such, I have almost never played a character above level 4, and thus rarely with spells over spell-level 2.

Now, the argument for the tier ratings of different spell schools seem to be based on spells from each that are considered "invaluable", such as teleport for conjuration, dispel magic for abjuration, and polymorph for transmutation. But virtually all of the spells mentioned for these arguments are high-level, relatively speaking. I've found that things are rather reversed at first level. Magic missile (evocation) is just plain incredible at early levels; it can not miss and can not be defended against in any form (except by spells and abilities SPECIFICALLY designed to counter it), has great range, and bypasses damage reduction if you're unlucky enough to face off against it. It also scales up to level 9, keeping it fresh for the first half of your character's life. Likewise, Sleep (enchantment) seems to be almost overpowered at level 1. While it quickly becomes ineffective at later levels (only effects up to 4HD), it basically spells instant and automatic death for anyone that it effects, since you can just go and coup de grace them after the battle. Seriously, a save or die spell at level 1? Well, not really, but in practice, yes.

Looking at this from my point of view of playing only low-level spellcasters, these are the spells I would consider invaluable, over anything from the other schools of equivalent level. So, my questions are:

1) Does anyone agree?
2) If so, can the schools still realistically be considered expendable? After all, in order to get to the higher levels that most builds are accounting for, you have to survive the levels that come before, starting at level 1 (even if you create a character that starts at a high level, it is something to consider regarding their past and how they got to where they are).

Gnaeus
2009-12-21, 11:24 AM
Magic Missile does always hit, but its damage is minimal at low levels. It is easily replaceable with a lesser elemental orb or other damage option. Of course, the best level 1 damage spell isn't a damage spell at all. Enlarge Person, by cranking up your FIGHTERs damage, is pretty certain to do more than 2-5 hp over a combat, and your fighter will love you for it.

Sleep is a good spell, but there are other save or loses at level 1. Color spray is at least as good. It requires you to get closer to the enemy, but it doesn't take a full round to cast. Grease is a reflex save or suck usable against many enemies. Honestly, at first level, I feel worse about losing the 0 level cantrip Daze than Sleep. I am much more likely to actually memorize daze.

It isn't that Enchantment and Evocation have no good spells. They do. They just have spells that are easily mimicked by other schools.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-21, 11:32 AM
As far as Evocation - no it's still pretty easy to mimic at low levels. True, MM doesn't miss but SR does effect it and the damage is pretty bleh. Personally I'd suggest your other tactic instead (sleep really is the low level save or die). Still, Lesser Orb spells are available at that level (ranged touch, so you have a roughly 50% chance to hit even if you have a +0 bonus to the roll). As for the rest of the school - it's mostly crappy damage spells till you hit the Force line (which isn't covered by low level really).

Enchantment... Enchantment is obscene at low levels. Barring your enemies specifically preparing for it, or being of certain types it can simply end encounters from level 1 on. Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Charm Person, Ray of Stupidity... And out of combat it becomes far more terrifying, particularly combined with the skill trick which lets you cast without being noticed.

The reasoning behind dropping Enchantment is basically immunities to it at higher levels, and that will based SoDs can be gotten elsewhere. However, it offers a number of unique abilities and the SoDs and SoLs available here often have bonus effects. We've already covered this in a recent thread but I wouldn't suggest dropping Enchantment first (Necromancy before it basically always, and Illusion usually - although this last hurts).

Edit: Also, @person above me. Enchantment is not easily mimicked by other schools, this is a misconception. The will based SoDs are, but the main argument I've heard against it is immunities (as the school does indeed offer a plethora of unique spells).

Gnaeus
2009-12-21, 11:49 AM
I think he was talking about survivability in combat for the first few levels. Enchantment does have some non combat applications that are nice. Charm Person can be difficult to use in combat. Ray of Stupidity and Tashas are nice, although situational, and at second level they lurk along with a wide range of other fight winning or life-saving spells. I wouldn't call either one a must-have for survival.

Necromancy is an acceptable trade for a banned school. (Although I wouldn't want to lose both Necro AND Enchantment. Gotta get those will SoDs from somewhere.)

Illusion covers the SoDs, but also some critical defensive buffs. Those are really important at low levels for survival.

The other problem with enchantment, like illusion, is that it requires DMs to be willing to work with you. Some DMs are really stingy with spells like charm (or illusion), and allow lots of additional saves. Spells that leave less room for interpretation are safer if you don't trust your DM.

Cyclocone
2009-12-21, 11:50 AM
Yes, Sleep is good at low levels, but so is extra spell slots.Actually,

And BTW, Enchantment is fairly easy to mimic. Plenty of other schools get will-save-or-lose spells, think Glitterdust, Fear, Solipsism etc.

Enchantments main schtick is mind-control, which (if you really, really feel you need it) can be obtain through summoning/calling or by shapechanging into an Aboleth/Ethergaunt etc (conveniently available at the same level as Dominate Monster).

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 12:18 PM
Illusion is one of the best schools at low levels - you get your SoDs (Color Spray, Phantasmal Assailants), your defensive spells (Mirror Image, Invisibility), your noncombat tricks (Silent Image, Serene Visage), and it stays powerful all the way up. Likewise Conjuration and Transmutation.

ericgrau
2009-12-21, 12:28 PM
With a range of 15 feet, color spray isn't just close. It's dangerously close. And it has a poor AoE, whereas sleep is more likely to hit more than 1 target. I'd still prefer sleep usually, though it depends. I mean OTOH savvy opponents will wake eachother. There really is nothing all that great at level 1, especially when the fighter can one shot enemies with only an easy attack roll. Grease is overrated, as it relies on DM ignorance. At range a crawl and stand defeats it without a check. In melee the baddy just eats the -4 and stay down (which is nice, but not crazy). Enlarge person is worst of all for damage, because while you give the fighter ~4 extra damage per hit, his enemies land about 20% more hits on him. Much more once your fighter can afford full plate, b/c now the orc isn't struggling to hit him. That's effectively 2 or more damage from an orc. Ya, save that spell for grappling. Silent image is great situationally.

On to level 2. Flaming sphere is a great source of low level damage over time. Web makes for excellent battlefield control, especially against the smaller low level enemies (ooh, and it combos well with flaming sphere, I gotta try that some time). Glitterdust is ok, though the area is smaller. Pyrotechnics is likewise excellent, but difficult to pull off. Invisibility is great for tagging the rogue, especially if combining utility with the surprise sneak attack. Finally you can pick up minor image if you aren't already preparing silent image.

At 3rd level nearly every school has good low level options, except maybe necromancy.

So overall it seems necromancy, transmutation and abjuration get shafted at low levels. But really you could ban any two schools you want and plan for high levels, because there are at least 3 decent schools per level.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-21, 12:36 PM
Grease is overrated, as it relies on DM ignorance. At range a crawl and stand defeats it without a check. In melee the baddy just eats the -4 and stay down (which is nice, but not crazy).

Right, so the enemy decides to crawl away and gets hit for his trouble then, just as if he decided to stand. Sure, the -4 matters less and less as time goes on, but, really, grease is there to make people flat-footed and let the rogue shank some kidneys.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 12:52 PM
So overall it seems necromancy, transmutation and abjuration get shafted at low levels. But really you could ban any two schools you want and plan for high levels, because there are at least 3 decent schools per level.

Abjuration gets the best level one spell in the game - the one that can defeat an entire school. Necromancy gets various useful debuffs like Scare, Ray of Sickness etc. Transmutation I agree with you on.

Grease, as said, is more for the melee's benefit (especially the rogue/ninja) than yours.

Bob
2009-12-21, 01:44 PM
Enlarge person is worst of all for damage, because while you give the fighter ~4 extra damage per hit, his enemies land about 20% more hits on him.
Enlarge person will give a fighter +5 trip check that stacks with the feat, and reach; at the expense of 2 ac. That ~4 damage and size bonus to strength stack well and get modified by bonus attack rating and bonus attacks.

That should be enough for any seasoned fighter to control a number of orcs.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 01:48 PM
That should be enough for any seasoned fighter to control a number of orcs.

If those "number of orcs" have bows, the Fighter might not appreciate your "assistance."

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-21, 01:54 PM
If those "number of orcs" have bows, the Fighter might not appreciate your "assistance."

Well, you don't use a hammer when the job calls for a screw, now, do you?:smalltongue:

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 01:56 PM
Well, you don't use a hammer when the job calls for a screw, now, do you?:smalltongue:

For the orcs, changing a nail to a screw is a move action, compared to the standard action of readying the screwdriver for the Wizard.

mostlyharmful
2009-12-21, 02:18 PM
For the orcs, changing a nail to a screw is a move action, compared to the standard action of readying the screwdriver for the Wizard.

So you mean its so powerful that it controls whole groups of enemies without you even needing to cast it? Just the threat of you casting it dictates what your opponent has to do? cool.:smallsmile:

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 02:26 PM
So you mean its so powerful that it controls whole groups of enemies without you even needing to cast it? Just the threat of you casting it dictates what your opponent has to do? cool.:smallsmile:

Eh? Why would they react by pulling out bows if you haven't yet embiggened the fighter?

mostlyharmful
2009-12-21, 02:58 PM
Eh? Why would they react by pulling out bows if you haven't yet embiggened the fighter?

by looking at you and knowing you're a wizard? most wizards I've run or played with went to great pains to make sure that everyone knew they were wizards. A little experience fighting in a world with arcane magic and you've got a bunch of thugs that behave differently when confrounted with a nerd in a dress....

Bob
2009-12-21, 03:03 PM
I'd use a hammer on a screw if it is going to make the screw forfeit it's charge and give up on offending my front line.

erikun
2009-12-21, 03:12 PM
I've used Charm Person more than Sleep, actually. Grease and Color Spray are about as useful, and don't completely lose effectiveness at higher levels. Plus, when the choice is between one Sleep or two Color Sprays, the two will last longer.

I've been using Magic Missile since I started playing D&D, and I can confirm the damage sucks. The damage has always sucked. The only reason to be throwing around a MM is because you want to do some damage and don't want to miss with a crossbow bolt. No, seriously, a sling stone does more damage, not to mention the 1d8/two levels from one of the Lesser Orbs. Scorching Ray is a nice 2nd level spell, though, and one I hate to lose.

Zaydos
2009-12-21, 03:13 PM
Monster Manual orcs don't even have bows (they have javelins instead) and even if they did they'd need mighty composite ones, and regardless their attack bonus just went from +4 to +1 and their damage went down from d12+4 to d8+3 so... +1 AC, DR 3/- and +3.5 damage (assuming a longsword) is good.

arguskos
2009-12-21, 03:18 PM
Monster Manual orcs don't even have bows (they have javelins instead) and even if they did they'd need mighty composite ones, and regardless their attack bonus just went from +4 to +1 and their damage went down from d12+4 to d8+3 so... +1 AC, DR 3/- and +3.5 damage (assuming a longsword) is good.
Note that a +3 Str bonus composite longbow has a gp cost in the 400s. This is VERY unfeasible for each and every orc to have. Likely, they'd have a crappy crossbow, or some throwing axes. Damage then becomes either 1d8 flat or 1d6+3 (with a range of 20 or so). Just sayin', ranged options at level 1 SUCK.

Myrmex
2009-12-21, 03:42 PM
Evocation sucks even harder at low levels. It's only good when you are a) facing a lot of dangerous monsters and b) abusing metamagic.

Magic missile is such utter, useless trash at low levels. Compare 1d4+1 to effects like sleep, color spray, grease, or enlarge person. Heck, even magic weapon is better. If you really feel the need to be doing damage, throw alchemist fire or acid, or tanglefoot bags. Debuffs like ray of enfeeblement or ray of clumisness are also very nice, since they either make the enemy easier to hit, or less dangerous to you.

Because to-hit at low levels is quite hard to come by, things that increase your dedicated pointy stick guy's to-hit are awesome. An entangled creature or one that fell down, at level 3, faces enormous penalties.

Bob
2009-12-21, 04:05 PM
My opinion, the entire school of evocation could be vindicated by attaching a short stun to spells. Allowing a fortitude save to resist.

Istari
2009-12-21, 04:11 PM
The effectiveness of MM depends on a lot of things. At low levels in core there aren't many good damage spells and using a sling or thrown weapon if too expensive or ineffective with a low strength score.

Optimystik
2009-12-21, 04:14 PM
Monster Manual orcs don't even have bows (they have javelins instead) and even if they did they'd need mighty composite ones, and regardless their attack bonus just went from +4 to +1 and their damage went down from d12+4 to d8+3 so... +1 AC, DR 3/- and +3.5 damage (assuming a longsword) is good.

Two javelins can kill a level 1 fighter, and are more likely to hit once he's up a size category. That was my point.

If you're going to buff the fighter at level 1, give him Pro. Evil. Better yet, debuff his enemies (spam Scare, Sleep, Color Spray etc.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-21, 04:16 PM
The effectiveness of MM depends on a lot of things. At low levels in core there aren't many good damage spells and using a sling or thrown weapon if too expensive or ineffective with a low strength score.Except you deal 1d4+1 damage at a time when a Dog has more HP than that. And the Fighter or Rogue can 1-shot it anyways. It's a spell with no noticeable impact on combat. At least you have a chance of critting if you use a crossbow.

Thrawn183
2009-12-21, 04:18 PM
I dunno, I might have it start as daze, move to stun and then end with paralysis.

HCL
2009-12-21, 04:32 PM
With a range of 15 feet, color spray isn't just close. It's dangerously close. And it has a poor AoE, whereas sleep is more likely to hit more than 1 target. I'd still prefer sleep usually, though it depends. I mean OTOH savvy opponents will wake eachother. There really is nothing all that great at level 1, especially when the fighter can one shot enemies with only an easy attack roll. Grease is overrated, as it relies on DM ignorance. At range a crawl and stand defeats it without a check. In melee the baddy just eats the -4 and stay down (which is nice, but not crazy). Enlarge person is worst of all for damage, because while you give the fighter ~4 extra damage per hit, his enemies land about 20% more hits on him. Much more once your fighter can afford full plate, b/c now the orc isn't struggling to hit him. That's effectively 2 or more damage from an orc. Ya, save that spell for grappling. Silent image is great situationally.

Color spray is still overall better than sleep because it is a standard action that triggers right away. With sleep they can still get an action off before your next initiative count. And illusion gets far more support.

I believe grease makes the affected enemies flatfooted even if they save

If you are really creative and you can crank up that will save DC (GNOME), Silent image is great in pretty much every situation. Heighten it and add in levels of ScM to have it function as shadow conjuration/evocation too


On to level 2. Flaming sphere is a great source of low level damage over time. Web makes for excellent battlefield control, especially against the smaller low level enemies (ooh, and it combos well with flaming sphere, I gotta try that some time). Glitterdust is ok, though the area is smaller. Pyrotechnics is likewise excellent, but difficult to pull off. Invisibility is great for tagging the rogue, especially if combining utility with the surprise sneak attack. Finally you can pick up minor image if you aren't already preparing silent image.

At 3rd level nearly every school has good low level options, except maybe necromancy.

So overall it seems necromancy, transmutation and abjuration get shafted at low levels. But really you could ban any two schools you want and plan for high levels, because there are at least 3 decent schools per level.

You want a nice low level damage spell? Cast Investitute of the Spined Devil on yourself and share it with your animal companion/familiar. Each of you get 15 spines, you can shoot 3 of them as a standard action, each dealing 1d6+str.

Zaydos
2009-12-21, 04:38 PM
Two javelins can kill a level 1 fighter, and are more likely to hit once he's up a size category. That was my point.

If you're going to buff the fighter at level 1, give him Pro. Evil. Better yet, debuff his enemies (spam Scare, Sleep, Color Spray etc.)

My point is that they are less likely to hit even then than the great-ax was to begin with (and the greataxe with a lucky hit can one shot) plus he has reach now making it harder for them to even attack, plus he is more likely to one hit. Really if I was the orcs I continue with the greataxe even then.

But yes debuff is better than Enlarge, and Sleep is my favorite spell at Lv 1.

Gnaeus
2009-12-21, 10:43 PM
Grease isn't just good for tripping. You see a big orc barbarian with a 2 handed weapon? Grease the weapon. He isn't likely to be hiding a second greataxe in his pants.

Orcs with bows, maybe you don't enlarge the fighter. Save that for the skeleton or animal encounter. Something that will rush the front line provoking tasty AOOs before they get to attack. Plenty of those at first level. With decent tactical play, enlarge can score a fighter an extra attack every round against enemies that rush to melee. You don't memorize 4 enlarges, you memorize 1 or 2 and use them when they are advantageous. Unless of course your fighter is a chain tripper. Then enlarge is almost always a good idea.

Transmutation is bad at low levels? Leaving aside Enlarge, Alter Self is tremendous. 30+ minutes of heavy natural armor boost, + your choice of movement forms is great for a second level spell. Heck, Magic Weapon is as good as Magic Missile until your melee can afford masterwork weapons.

Necromancy is still better than evocation. Blindness is your first real fort based SoD, and you cant craft Amulets of Tears without false life. Ray of enfeeblement is a very solid low level debuff.

Really, evocation is almost always expendible, and you can make a perfectly decent low level wizard with almost any of the other schools. Abjuration is the only one that really falls down at low levels in my opinion.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-22, 12:00 AM
Well, most round/level spells are going to suck at first level, but they'll start increasing in use very quickly.

In my opinion a low level wizard with a party cleric can best afford to ban abjuration. Protection from/Magic Circle Against X is good, but you have better options at these levels than the Cleric does, so he should prepare it. Dispel magic has situational uses, but at this level you're basically spending your action to have a ~50% chance of negating someone else's action, and once again the cleric is better off preparing this spell.

Granted, abjuration really comes into its own at higher level. With CL/dispel modifiers those dispels and greater dispels become more reliable (though a cleric can still do it better); there are two cheesy prestige classes that shall not be named that have to do with abjuration; most importantly at higher level the wizard starts getting potent abjurations unique to the sor/wiz spell list. But at low levels the only worthwhile spell I can see is the one your healbot buddy should be casting every combat anyway.

Myrmex
2009-12-22, 02:51 AM
The effectiveness of MM depends on a lot of things. At low levels in core there aren't many good damage spells and using a sling or thrown weapon if too expensive or ineffective with a low strength score.

At all but the first level is the 10gp for an acid flask too expensive. After that, you're a fool to be putting 1d4+1 damage spells in spell slots that could be pwning everything on the battlefield in once cast, or making your fighter, cleric, rogue, or druid 2x as effective.